Question about Model Bi Planes

[Mike Griffin]

Has anyone ever kitted a really good looking (I realize that is subjective) full bodied Bi plane that would stunt well?  I just really like the looks of them but never built one in my life.  There was a recent thread about the Dancing Girl and someone posted some pictures of a really good looking biplane that I think was overseas somewhere.  I was thinking something that would use a LA OS .46 or in that size range.

This is the one I was referring to.  I really like the shape of this.

Mike

[Robert Zambelli]

Hi, Mike.
Your post MADE MY DAY!!!      
The plane in the photo is the Falco (Falcon), designed by my good friend Luciano Campostella (RIP).
Designed in 1992, it had a wingspan of 47.24 inches and weighed 60 ounces.
Movable flaps on the lower wing only.
Powered by an OS Surpass 48, it was an AMAZING flyer. He won many contests with it, including a number of European championships.
I was a consulting engineer for Agusta Helicopters in the early 2000s and I arranged my meetings such that I could fly with Luciano, Alberto Maggi, Clemente Cappi and Masimo Semoli on the weekend. These guys could really fly well.
They had a great club called the  Gruppo Modellistico Monzese (Monza Modellers Group).
I have a very basic plan for the Falco and I will gladly post it if you're interested.

Bob Z.

[Mike Griffin]

Hi, Mike.
Your post MADE MY DAY!!!      
The plane in the photo is the Falco (Falcon), designed by my good friend Luciano Campostella (RIP).
Designed in 1992, it had a wingspan of 47.24 inches and weighed 60 ounces.
Movable flaps on the lower wing only.
Powered by an OS Surpass 48, it was an AMAZING flyer. He won many contests with it, including a number of European championships.
I was a consulting engineer for Agusta Helicopters in the early 2000s and I arranged my meetings such that I could fly with Luciano, Alberto Maggi, Clemente Cappi and Masimo Semoli on the weekend. These guys could really fly well.
They had a great club called the  Gruppo Modellistico Monzese (Monza Modellers Group).
I have a very basic plan for the Falco and I will gladly post it if you're interested.

Bob Z.

Bob I would love to see it.  I just think this model is really pretty.  There is just something about it that jumps out at you.

Mike

[George Albo]

Has anyone ever kitted a really good looking (I realize that is subjective) full bodied Bi plane that would stunt well?  I just really like the looks of them but never built one in my life.  There was a recent thread about the Dancing Girl and someone posted some pictures of a really good looking biplane that I think was overseas somewhere.  I was thinking something that would use a LA OS .46 or in that size range.

This is the one I was referring to.  I really like the shape of this.

Mike

I got curious as I too like bipes, so I went looking around the net and found this and the diagram of the "FALCO", the biplane shown:
https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/mr-luciano-compostella/

[Shorts,David]

I'll admit that Falco bipe is great to look at. The fact that it competed in the 92 worlds makes it more credible than any other bipe so far. I'll also add however the Jack Sheeks Beechcraft Biplane. Due to the wing positioning it is "supposed" to outfly any of the other bipes...though that remains to be proven I suppose.  Design is 1964 so it's classic legal. Outerzone says 55in span, totally false. I think it is 45inch.
https://outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=6450

AMA also has the plan and Ed at Lazer Works already has it designed for cutting. I bought one but it is still in cellophane and will perhaps remain that way a while. But I hope to take it to VSC someday, but probably not till 2021 I suppose.
David

[Robert Zambelli]

Posted before but here it is again!

Bob Z.

[TigreST]

Somebody did a PT-17 Stearman that was really nice.  Not sure on the aerobatic capability.  It was in the 48” to 50” wing span range.  Sorry I forget the designer/builder/flyers name.
 I’ve had a couple Sig profile Ultimate Bipe r/c kits sitting in wait for years now thinking they would be a good c/l conversion test bed. 

T.

[peabody]

Seems to me Jim Damerell had a terrific flying British designed bipe that was super competitive in OTS...

[George Albo]

Posted before but here it is again!

Bob Z.

That's your link I posted

[TigreST]

Somebody did a PT-17 Stearman that was really nice.  Not sure on the aerobatic capability.  It was in the 48” to 50” wing span range.  Sorry I forget the designer/builder/flyers name.
 I’ve had a couple Sig profile Ultimate Bipe r/c kits sitting in wait for years now thinking they would be a good c/l conversion test bed. 

T.

I guess its only a 44" Strearman...still a beauty.:  Don Hutchinson was the man.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/looking-for-plans-for-a-good-flying-cl-biplane/

[Shorts,David]

Somebody did a PT-17 Stearman that was really nice.  Not sure on the aerobatic capability.  It was in the 48” to 50” wing span range.  Sorry I forget the designer/builder/flyers name.
 I’ve had a couple Sig profile Ultimate Bipe r/c kits sitting in wait for years now thinking they would be a good c/l conversion test bed. 

T.

Don Hutchinson did a pt-17. I have the plans and it looks like a rear end kicker, but video I've seen is promising.

[Robert Zambelli]

Seems to me Jim Damerell had a terrific flying British designed bipe that was super competitive in OTS...

Hi, P-Man.
I think it was call ed a Lynx.
Showed up at GSCB long ago.

[ericrule]

For a large number of year Bart Klapinski flew the Stearman and did very well with it. How it performs in hands other than Bart's (he can borrow your model and beat you any day of the week) I am not sure but it sure performed the entire pattern well for him.

Special note for Mr. Griffin;
Remember a Bi Plane has two wings. That means you have double the chance of building a warp into the model and double the chance of not getting the wing thrust line accurate. Not suggesting anything at all. Just thought I would mention it to you (LOL).

[Robert Zambelli]

My contribution - I REALLY like biplanes!!!

Here’s a project for someone who likes biplanes! It is not a derivative or modification of any kit, nor is it Jack Sheeks’ design – It’s totally my own.
 
It is very close to scale – probably will be entered in fun or sport scale but it’s intended to be a stunter.
 
It features retracts and throttle, also my own design. The landing light also retracts. I have designed a system to allow one servo to control both.
 
It is take-apart. Span and chord are 52.5 and 8.75 inches. Fuselage diameter at cowl (molded of fiberglass & carbon fiber) is 5.25 inches. Overall length is ~38 inches. Weight is around 62 ounces.

Power is a SAITO .56. An exhaust system of my own design fits inside the cowl and the pipe exits as on the real plane. A unique feature is that by removing 4 screws I can extract the “power module” which includes engine, exhaust system, mount, main firewall, and tank.

Construction is all silk and dope.
 
The plane flies amazingly well and is impressive with the gear up. Why did I do this??? I wish I knew but if someone can help me figure out why, I’ll owe him or her a beer!! Since I’m a rather unimpressive pilot, winning big is definitely not in the plan!

Bob Z.

[Mike Griffin]

For a large number of year Bart Klapinski flew the Stearman and did very well with it. How it performs in hands other than Bart's (he can borrow your model and beat you any day of the week) I am not sure but it sure performed the entire pattern well for him.

Special note for Mr. Griffin;
Remember a Bi Plane has two wings. That means you have double the chance of building a warp into the model and double the chance of not getting the wing thrust line accurate. Not suggesting anything at all. Just thought I would mention it to you (LOL).

I have absolutely no friggin idea what you are talking about.   

[Mike Griffin]

My contribution - I REALLY like biplanes!!!

Here’s a project for someone who likes biplanes! It is not a derivative or modification of any kit, nor is it Jack Sheeks’ design – It’s totally my own.
 
It is very close to scale – probably will be entered in fun or sport scale but it’s intended to be a stunter.
 
It features retracts and throttle, also my own design. The landing light also retracts. I have designed a system to allow one servo to control both.








Bob that is amazing... WOW...
 
It is take-apart. Span and chord are 52.5 and 8.75 inches. Fuselage diameter at cowl (molded of fiberglass & carbon fiber) is 5.25 inches. Overall length is ~38 inches. Weight is around 62 ounces.

Power is a SAITO .56. An exhaust system of my own design fits inside the cowl and the pipe exits as on the real plane. A unique feature is that by removing 4 screws I can extract the “power module” which includes engine, exhaust system, mount, main firewall, and tank.

Construction is all silk and dope.
 
The plane flies amazingly well and is impressive with the gear up. Why did I do this??? I wish I knew but if someone can help me figure out why, I’ll owe him or her a beer!! Since I’m a rather unimpressive pilot, winning big is definitely not in the plan!

Bob Z.

[Balsa Butcher]

"Biceps" is another one. 60 sized, full bodied, classic legal, plans available (last time I checked) from Tom Dixon. Walter Hicks flew one at an early VSC. Looks somewhat like an Art Scholl vintage Travel Air but with inline (normal stunt style) front end. Great flier, Walter's used an ST-60 for power. Bart flew it  and was very impressed. 

[Gary Dowler]

I guess its only a 44" Strearman...still a beauty.:  Don Hutchinson was the man.

https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/looking-for-plans-for-a-good-flying-cl-biplane/

What sort of bellcrank is that??

Gary

[Shorts,David]

"Biceps" is another one. 60 sized, full bodied, classic legal, plans available (last time I checked) from Tom Dixon. Walter Hicks flew one at an early VSC. Looks somewhat like an Art Scholl vintage Travel Air but with inline (normal stunt style) front end. Great flier, Walter's used an ST-60 for power. Bart flew it  and was very impressed. 

I didn't know Walter flew one. The build article makes it sound like a sloppy flier. Maybe I need to look at it again. Ed at Lazer works has the short kit for biceps also.
David

[Larry Fernandez]

What sort of bellcrank is that??

Gary

That is a circular bellcrank that Ted developed years ago. Although I'm not certain that is was Ted idea. I do know that he used them in a number of his planes.
The idea was that at any position away from neutral. the leadout spacing was always four inches (If you are using a four inch bellcrank} this makes for a more linear response.
Imagine this, with a standard, conventional bellcrank, your leadout spacing is four inches. With any control input, the farther the bellcrank is positioned away from neutral, the leadout spacing will decrease, making it less sensitive as you get farther away.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Brett Buck]

Imagine this, with a standard, conventional bellcrank, your leadout spacing is four inches. With any control input, the farther the bellcrank is positioned away from neutral, the leadout spacing will decrease, making it less sensitive as you get farther away.

 And for a biplane, with the bellcrank in the fuselage, you don't have to cut big slots in the fuselage sides to clear the leadouts.

    Brett

[Larry Fernandez]

And for a biplane, with the bellcrank in the fuselage, you don't have to cut big slots in the fuselage sides to clear the leadouts.

    Brett

Ahhhhhhhhhh,  excellent observation.
I shoulda put one of these in my Flying Fool.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Daniel_Munro]

What about Duetto? It’s a beautiful design. Never built one so I can cannot comment on how it performs though. But the article from Aeromodeller magazine back in the day sounds positive.

[Fredvon4]

I am Not going in search....but in the last year or two, a European member here-- did a build and maiden of his competition stunt biplane....lots of molded parts as I recall

[Air Ministry .]

Duetto Plan AM1586 $ 17.50

Another Maikus design ,



Part kits 60 $ or 10.80 pounds fora plan .

But seeing it'd be Maikus design rights ,

[PJ Rowland]

The "europe member" who built a biplane and flew it in competition?
Well considering ive not seen anyone else really attacking the problem for the modern age, I will assume you were talking about my biplane "Double Take" which placed 4th at the Nats.

Well.. I can give updates.. The design has just finished another round of development. It is now running all electric components with the Igor Active system .

Overall I can say the new version is very good.

Now I will answer the original post.. Why arent there more biplanes?

Thats easy to answer after hundreds of flights .. multiple design changes.. fully adjustable 4 x 2 walker flap adjustment system for trim.. and a skilled pilot putting a fresh new design through an extensive testing program for OUR pattern.

My observations are that ; I dont care who you are.. biplanes are great.. and they are really well suited for what we do.. however.. they fly..act..and react to changes unlike ANY mono plane ive ever flown.. even the geometry of the control systems are totally different..
I virtually had to "write a book" on the design changes.. how they effected certain aspects of the flight envelope.. and assess why it behaves the way it does, once you have a good working knowledge of this new behaviour, fault finding becomes routine. Without it.. your flyimg blind and chasing your tail..

You must be prepared to challenge your preconceptions of why it should be a certain way, 2 wings dont behave like 2 wings.. just like saying 2 wings doesnt double the lift..
Its so much more different than what I had expected.. and I had read many many papers on biplane design theory.

Much of the theory in biplane design is many decades old..and to some degree isnt relivant at all for designing for our sport..  they dont react in the same way.. they dont trim the same way..  and they certainly have their own language to tell you whats up!!  IF you dont listen you wont get it to behave the way you want..

So why no kits or even more designs?? Well thats obvious to me now.. because they are hard to do !

If all fairness.. based on my experiences.. it would be difficult to have an IC engine be compeitive in a biplane.. and certainly in the last 20 years pipe tech wouldnt cut it..

So who is going to design and test anything? Its not easy to build a compeition mono plane these days with the myriad 0f prebuilts dominating the world. So who is going to bother risking loosing a year or maybe two of compeition in trying to get something different to work ??

Look at paul walkers B17.. he flew it in comp and developed it for comp. Noone else really has done such a feat.. other than my lancaster...
I developed VG technology specific for our sport and have been working with that tech since 1995.. now 24 years later its more mainstream amongst top tier stunt fliers...

Noone put a .61 sized modern engine into a classic plane until I did it.. and was laughed at till I dominated the event winning countless Nats titles by huge margins till eventually I lost interest in that version of stunt. I did 3 different designs .. a 1951 Aldrich Nobler/ stalker 61. Multiple Nats classic wins.
1969 Gieseke Nobler / Stalker 61 Longstroke.. Multiplr nats wins 2nd us nats classic and made top 20 of the us nats with a plane designed in 1969..
Original Werwage Ares/ Stalker .66.. was my last version.

But I had to work on all of these devlopments

So.. just deciding to make something a stunt plane isnt easy.. there isnt a book for an evolution of aerobatics, you need lots of different skills.. design, building, imagination, in flight trim..and problemsolving, skill at flying..

So I venture to say.. unless your prepared to put your neck put on the line .. with a clear view to do something different that will allow easier execution of the patten ,then you simply wont get anything new !!

Biplanes are tough.. make no mistake, they have their own unique quirks snd abilities.. Im fairly confident ( based on my design experience during my own biplane testing ) that noone will stumble upon a successful modern design..  you will have to work at it..
And .. can I just say.. as a whole the control line community is littered with people who do things without any understanding of the whys to certain things work..
Its almost like some sort of witch craft.. those that seriously do well.. understand the what and whys of the stunt plane.. snd those guys are too busy winning to venture out of the design envelope that yeilds success.

Thats one reason why.. before igors active system was developed by igor for our sport.. it didnt exist.. he did it to give himself an edge .. and he did just that.

It takes sweat.. hardwork.. and talent....

Goodluck to anyone who undertakes a biplane project.. we are so specific with our requirements that looking at the pitts special which was designed in 1944 ... has no relivance to our event.. none..

So in the meantime here is the next edition v2, the electric version... flown.. tested.. trimmed and the lessons learnt through the last 6 months and many many flights has already been implimented into inked plans for my new 2020 Version 3.. i cannot wait to build it..



Short video .. testing outside loops and inside squares . This day I was trying to get the speed control of the outside loops and inside squares to be similar. Loops are gradual yet squares are abrupt.. Im not interested in a critque of the quality, that wasnt the purpose of the test or the video.. we wanted to see if these 2 different manouvers could be flown with similar speed control with adjusting the igor active system position withing the fuse.

[Fredvon4]

64 year young, two strokes....memory not top of game.....mia culpa  messer Rowland

The "europe member" who built a biplane and flew it in competition?   yes sir yours is the plane I was recalling

[James Holford]

My contribution - I REALLY like biplanes!!!

Here’s a project for someone who likes biplanes! It is not a derivative or modification of any kit, nor is it Jack Sheeks’ design – It’s totally my own.
 
It is very close to scale – probably will be entered in fun or sport scale but it’s intended to be a stunter.
 
It features retracts and throttle, also my own design. The landing light also retracts. I have designed a system to allow one servo to control both.
 
It is take-apart. Span and chord are 52.5 and 8.75 inches. Fuselage diameter at cowl (molded of fiberglass & carbon fiber) is 5.25 inches. Overall length is ~38 inches. Weight is around 62 ounces.

Power is a SAITO .56. An exhaust system of my own design fits inside the cowl and the pipe exits as on the real plane. A unique feature is that by removing 4 screws I can extract the “power module” which includes engine, exhaust system, mount, main firewall, and tank.

Construction is all silk and dope.
 
The plane flies amazingly well and is impressive with the gear up. Why did I do this??? I wish I knew but if someone can help me figure out why, I’ll owe him or her a beer!! Since I’m a rather unimpressive pilot, winning big is definitely not in the plan!

Bob Z.

Such a coincidence I seen this bird on a Windy Video the other night when it was still barebones!!!!

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[James Holford]

I know of a certain someone in the southern Texas region that is building a Sterling Fokker DVII for stunt..... and giving his craftsmanship. It may be a winner. But time will tell.

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[Mike Griffin]

Honestly, I had toyed with the idea of kitting a Bi Plane but after checking on all of the factors, it was just going to be to expensive to produce with the cost of everything going up so much.   I was trying to find a design that would be in demand but that in itself became very confusing.

Mike

[Tim Wescott]

I love looking at biplanes, and thinking about flying biplanes, and how cool they are.  And every time I look at plans I think oh my god not two wings!!!

[Steve Helmick]

I would be more concerned by the high drag and resulting poor wind penetration and lack of glide. It doesn't seem logical to use a biplane for stunt, most especially F2B, where they seem to want a full lap of glide prior to touchdown. Unless maybe they have deleted that?  Steve

[Brett Buck]

I would be more concerned by the high drag and resulting poor wind penetration and lack of glide. It doesn't seem logical to use a biplane for stunt, most especially F2B, where they seem to want a full lap of glide prior to touchdown. Unless maybe they have deleted that?  Steve

   I am pretty divorced from the FAI at this point (I didn't leave them, they left me...) but I think that's still in there. 2 people a year, on average, are going to have to deal with that, so probably not a big problem by itself.

   All the biplanes designs I have done (and that is a lot of them, but only one actually built) ended up with high-aspect ratio wings with relatively thin airfoils, in an attempt to address the obvious shortcomings. But the best design feature is having an absurdly powerful engine for the size.

     I always thought a maybe 620-650-square inch biplane would be a good choice for an ST60 or 4-stroke, just because it would work a lot like the gigantic thick-wing models with lots of parasitic drag helping you maintain the speed against whip-up.

     Brett

[Air Ministry .]

Was a Laird Super solution by Brikhaus or suchlike , profile , in F.M . ?  Found these looking for it : http://www.circlemasters.com/building-contest-2017









Looking at Solution Info last night , figured a 8 in Dia cowl was the way to go , pretty much scale .  Tho a profile might be a tad easier .
Id allways assumed the fuselage was round , but its based on a squareish tube frame . Quite ingenious & cunning , aerodynamically .

[Shorts,David]

Was a Laird Super solution by Brikhaus or suchlike , profile , in F.M . ?  Found these looking for it : http://www.circlemasters.com/building-contest-2017






Looking at Solution Info last night , figured a 8 in Dia cowl was the way to go , pretty much scale .  Tho a profile might be a tad easier .
Id allways assumed the fuselage was round , but its based on a squareish tube frame . Quite ingenious & cunning , aerodynamically .

The red bipe looks like Jack Sheeks 1964 Beechcraft Stunter. Ibeam wing. I'm glad you posted it because I've got the plans and am considering it. Nice to see one barebones that I can really study.

I figure I'll go for it and then deal with aerodynamics later. If I deal with aerodynamics first, like someone said, I'll never begin. What's the fun in that? We do still do this to have fun, right?

Jamie Holford, which Windy Video? He only has like 900 some.
David

[James Holford]

Jamie Holford, which Windy Video? He only has like 900 some.
David

Im gona have to check my youtube history but I know for sure was when he was testing Jett motor on a profile.  Just cant pinpoint the exact video at the moment.


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[James Holford]

The red bipe looks like Jack Sheeks 1964 Beechcraft Stunter. Ibeam wing. I'm glad you posted it because I've got the plans and am considering it. Nice to see one barebones that I can really study.

I figure I'll go for it and then deal with aerodynamics later. If I deal with aerodynamics first, like someone said, I'll never begin. What's the fun in that? We do still do this to have fun, right?

Jamie Holford, which Windy Video? He only has like 900 some.
David

Here is the Windy Video with Zambelli's Biplane barebones. Enjoy




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[Dan McEntee]

   If you want a simple biplane that flies well, I would pursue the 38 Special. I have seen a couple of those around here and they both looked like they flew very well. I had thoughts of combining the 38 Special airfoils, moments and such into the old SIG Spad and Fokker D-7. If you want something more involved I would also suggest the Hutchenson Stearman. I have seen several of those fly, including doing very well in Advanced class. I have the plans for his original full fuselage and I think he did a profile for his .40 size warbird series.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[James Holford]

   If you want a simple biplane that flies well, I would pursue the 38 Special. I have seen a couple of those around here and they both looked like they flew very well. I had thoughts of combining the 38 Special airfoils, moments and such into the old SIG Spad and Fokker D-7. If you want something more involved I would also suggest the Hutchenson Stearman. I have seen several of those fly, including doing very well in Advanced class. I have the plans for his original full fuselage and I think he did a profile for his .40 size warbird series.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

Yep. I have plans for his Profile Version.

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[Air Ministry .]

Just found this , Caudron C 270 / 272 , if someone wanted a semi scale ' square rigged ' Biplane .

Been wondering previously if flaps on lower wing only might be preferable , too .

Putiton as it looks pretty straightforward to build .Plenty of info out there . But we're after a STUNT Aerobatic ship , obviously .

[Air Ministry .]

Heres one of the tarted up ' SUPER ' Tiger Moths , if swept wings are your cuppa tea . No C/S Tank & other tricks . Info out there if ya look .
A ' appropriate ' plane for aerobatics . As is the French STAMPE , if four flaps are a pre requirement , & semi scales the option . Ran a aerobatic team
were tougher stressed than Tigers .



better pitcher'er .

 https://www.airhistory.net/photo/124288/G-ANZZ

width=793 height=600]https://www.airhistory.net/photos/0124288.jpg

[Walter Hicks]

Anyone Built a F4B-4 Either Profile or built up? Stearman Profile?



This is a 44" Profile kit from Pat King  PDK LLC, Laser cut , not complete here, Stalker 51 Se 48 oz, Ultrakote on wings , Basecoat ,Clearcoat paint on fuse, stab, elevators rudder, Red on wing is Basecoat paint on Ultrakote with lite mist of auto clear to seal it.
I have since added bell crank, tank, lead outs not flown yet due to field being closed and weather.

[Scott Richlen]

Years ago a lot of us built Flying Fools.  Mine never flew quite right.  It seemed to "gallop" around a loop.  Not sure what that was about.  Maybe just stalling its way through the maneuver?

[TigreST]

Although out of production now, the SIG Profile Ultimate Bipe was reported to lend itself to conversion to C/L. and performs well.

[Dennis Leonhardi]

What sort of bellcrank is that??

Gary

Don's Stearman is one of the most beautiful models I've seen.  I have the (very extensive) construction article in pdf form (nearly 7Mb).  Send an email to my screen name @usfamily.net if you'd like a copy.  Don explains building dummy radial engine detail, fuel tank mount, the bellcrank and lots more.

Flying Models Plans can supply plans - https://store.flying-models.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=323

Dennis