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Author Topic: Q & A for alternative flying lines  (Read 2311 times)

Offline Rog Strickler

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Q & A for alternative flying lines
« on: November 30, 2007, 05:59:49 PM »
Hey Guys,
Thought maybe we could have a “Q & A” thread just for the alternative flying lines.

Let me prefix my comments with this disclaimer.
My experience has ONLY been with “Spyder Wire”. My comments can not be considered generic and apply only to my experience with that specific brand. Your results may vary. Some assembly required. Batteries not included.  Use only with adult supervision. You must be this tall to enter this ride. Side effects may include but are not limited to;

Several of you asked what type of knot I use for termination points and if I could provide any description. I have added three pictures to the construction gallery (wasn’t sure where to put them). I have used all three successfully. I tie my line directly to my line connectors. No eyelets required.

There was a lengthy comment made regarding stretch and pre-stretch. The lines that I use were not pre stretched and to date no stretch has been noted. I do use an adjustable cable handle but can’t recall needing any adjustment beyond the original setup. Several of you know Gary Tultz. (Rainman). Gary has used these lines and states that they compare favorably to solid lines.

I have had up to eight loops in these lines and had no trouble with resistance.

I clean them about once a month with the same Windex type cleaner that I use on my planes. (your area may require a different frequency).

I would appreciate any additional knowledge you may have acquired or experiences you may have had with what ever brand of line you have used.

Straighten up and fly right,,,
Rog

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2007, 07:05:53 PM »
What size planes are you using these on?   DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Glen Wearden

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2007, 07:18:24 PM »
I've got a set of lines made from Spectra, the yellow colored line, which I think was rated at 65lb. test.  I just tied them right to the connectors.  I have made several flights with planes that require the .015 size lines, and they work great.  I couldn't detect any stretch, and they seem to have the same control "feel" that the steel lines do.  Bear in mind, I'm not even close to being an expert.  I especially like the way they don't kink, etc.  I have a roll of 80lb test that I'm going to try for the planes that require .018.  My knots are just a series of loops that snub the line up to the connector.  I probably use more knots than I need to, but they haven't started to loosen up, yet.  I like the stuff!  Glen
Glen Wearden

Offline phil c

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #3 on: December 01, 2007, 12:53:56 PM »
The rules proposal is in the general section, since that is where the line construction and materials are specified for all events.  At Bob Underwood's suggestion it also includes wording for all the events that allow stranded lines to refer to the general rules for materials and construction.  I don't think any of the events except speed actually referred to the general rules, so technically they've never applied to stunt, combat, racing, carrier, scale, or special events.  Now they will.

As some background from what I've been able to determine, these high performance fishing lines are all made from what is called gel-spun ultrahigh molecular weight polyethylene.  Honeywell is the manufacturer in the US.  Dyneema is the major manufacturer in Europe.  I believe they are the only two suppliers because it is a patented, licensed technology.  In response to Paul S's commentary, Spectra(tm) and Dyneema(tm) are the trade names for the fiber, like Nylon, Rayon, etc.  As far as I can tell these two companies are the only manufacturers of the fiber.  Quite a number of companies take the fiber and turn it into lines of various kinds- Power Pro, Spiderwire, Tuf Line, Stren, Momoi, etc.

In various informal tests the Spectra lines are much less likely to get damaged in ordinary handling and stand up much better to use.  They are available, as fishing line, in many different diameters,  colors, and strength ratings.  All of the brands I've tested(Power Pro, Spiderwire, Tuf Line) can be made into useable lines simply by tying a loop with an overhand knot.  The strength is very uniformly half, or slightly less, of the rated strength.  The lines break either at the knot, or a couple inches away.  According to the kite flyers, there are various techniques, such as putting a sleeve of other material over the line, and possibly using certain types of knots, that will get a higher breaking strength.  I have not been able to do this.  Sleeving the line with Dacron fishing line, as the kite flyers do, before tying a knot in it made no difference.  I did find two knot variations, detailed in pictures with the rules proposal, that helped.  Tying the end in a double overhand knot added about 10% to the breaking strength and is very easy to do.  For attaching lines to line clips a half-blood knot gives similar strength.  The Palomar knots I tied did no better.

Just for comparison purposes, .018 stainless steel lines break at almost exactly 50 lb. pull.  They always break at the termination, whether it is wrapped, or crimped, or they break at a previously kinked spot in the middle of the lines.  100 lb. Spectra fishing line(Power Pro brand), has a diameter of about .0181 in.(it's a bit hard to measure exactly since the line is soft).  With simple overhand knot terminations it breaks at 45-47 lb. Using the double overhand knot or a half-blood knot increase the breaking strength to about 50 lb.  Pictures of the knots were sent in with the rules proposal.

The Spectra line weighs around 5 gr. for a 52.25 ft. set, 018 steel weighs 31 gr.  This is probably its biggest advantage.  Even though the lines may be a bit draggier, the lower weight makes the plane much more responsive and controllable.  It's easy to see 018 or even 015 lines flopping around in maneuvers.  If the plane slows a bit the weight of the line begins to make it wobble around a lot.  Less line weight means less tip weight and less flopping around.

In a couple simple abrasion tests, hanging a 15 lb weight from line and rubbing across it with another line stretched to 10 lb. or so on a bow, the 100 lb Spectra held up to 200 1 ft. strokes.  018 Stainless steel held up to 50 strokes under similar test conditions.  We've done quite a bit of combat flying using 30 lb. Spectra, which is the same strength as .012 steel lines.  The steel lines broke/kinked/tangled at about 10 times the rate of the Spectra lines.  In about 30 matches none of the Spectra lines were damaged, but 3 sets of steel lines were either broken, kinked, or otherwise damaged in line tangles.  However, when I ran the abrasion test above, using steel wire on the bow against the Spectra line, the Spectra only held up for 10 or so strokes, which is at odds with the flying tests.  The rules proposal recommends that until more experience is gained, all fliers in multi-flyer events(combat, racing) must use lines of the same material. The CD could handle this by an announcement in the contest promotional materials, or on a match by match basis.

 The gel-spun ulltra high molecular weight lines offer many advantages over steel wires, both solid and stranded. The GSUMP material is does not kink. It is almost totally immune to fatigue(the lines will not break from vibration at a point where they have been bent or knicked). The high visibility colors make it much easier to see the lines laying on the ground. They are highly resistant to wear when rubbed against each other(approximately four times more wear resistant). They stretch less and are easier to make up when they do wear and need replacement. The lines are made of many, many fibers so when wear and fiber breakage are seen they can be replaced in a timely manner.

I haven't been able to do any meaningful shock load testing.  We did observe though that some of the fishing lines, labeled "fusion" or similar terms, bond the fibers together into a solid line.  This material is much more shock sensitive.  The rules proposal specifies braided(stranded) line to avoid this.

We did do some less formal testing flying combat with Half-A's.  30 lb test Spectra lines outlasted .012 stainless at least 10-1.  Gil wiped out 3 sets of steel lines flying against Spectra lines in about 30 matches.  The steel lines all failed due to damage from line tangles, and none of the Spectra lines failed, which seems to be a bit at odds with the abrasion testing.

Cost wise, Spectra costs the same as stainless steel in the sizes we use. You can get 1500 yds. of Power Pro 100 lb. test for $170. , just under 4 cents a foot.  Since I've yet to have a set of Spectra lines fail or wear out, long term costs should be low.  Sig, Brodak, Aeroproducts, all can easily stock some fishing line of their own preferred brand if they want to service the market.

Stretchiness doesn't seem to be an issue in use.  I've used them on stunt and combat planes and not noticed any.  Braided metal lines get stretched and spring back every time you use them since the lines coil and uncoil(twist in the manufacturing process) and get all sorts of interesting curlicues in combat.  You may have noticed that some lots of stainless cable try to get curlies after every flight, while other batches don't.  It indicates the mfg'er got the twist in the individual wires wrong.

« Last Edit: December 01, 2007, 01:36:22 PM by phil c »
phil Cartier

Offline Rog Strickler

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #4 on: December 01, 2007, 01:51:56 PM »
What size planes are you using these on?   DOC Holliday
Hi Doc..
Presently the largest is the Ringmaster with a FOX .35.  I have used these lines on several different planes but the power has been limited to .35s. Presently I am only using the 50# spiderwire but will be making up a set from my 80# spool of Spiderwire for this spring. I will be flying my Cardinal and similar size planes with O. S. .46 engines.on these lines (63').

I would not be worried about flying the Cardinal on the 50# lines but I think that the 80# will work as well and of course have a higher safety factor.

Rog

Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2007, 03:37:07 PM »
I use Spiderwire up to 52' long on all my 1/2A and "3/4A" (.061) planes, combat and stunt.  12# to 15# test, whatever I find when I'm buying (I've actually used 8# test on small reed-valve sport planes, 35' lines max). 

A fast or heavy plane, slack and cutting directly across the circle, will snap one or both lines when it hits the end. But I've snapped .008 SS cable the same way; also have broken bellcranks in two using that same "maneuver", so I don't think that puts Spiderwire at a disadvantage. I try to avoid that maneuver whenever possible!

Stretch is a non-issue for me since my planes pull only a few lbs. anyhow.  I retire a set of lines when I see the beginnings of fraying.  Some of my line sets are several years old now.
I have had them wrapped up in a prop in combat; it makes a mess of the lines of course, and kills the engine after a few seconds (or the wraps pull it into the other plane), but believe it or not I've never had one break from that.  That's gotta be a plus, at least at the 1/2A level (I wouldn't expect this from .15 on up, nor carbon fiber props).

My biggest complaint with the Spiderwire I've been using is the grass-green color; they just disappear on the ground.  I have a spool of flourescent-yellow Spectra I plan to try this Spring.

--Ray
--Ray 
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Offline Dave Nyce

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2007, 06:05:31 PM »
I was trying to verify and compare the diameters of various forms of Spiderwire, etc., and also found difficulty because the line flattens with pressure from the measuring tool. 

I twisted some line in my fingers to try to assure that it was round, and then wet it with some cyanoacrylate.  After curing, the line was stiff, allowing the diameter to be easily measured with my calipers, but still keeping the pressure light.
  (Of course, I cut off that part of the line because it would no longer be suitable to use for flying line.)
Dave
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Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #7 on: December 02, 2007, 06:55:21 AM »
On the bright side... if you bust up all of your planes you can still go "Carp fishing". H^^
Dick Fowler AMA 144077
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #8 on: December 02, 2007, 08:00:52 AM »
Hey Ray,  I broke both of the .012 cable X 35 on a 1/2A Stunt plane in Topeka when they used to have !/2A stunt.  The plane came across the circle in a small arc and was nose down when it hit the ends of the lines.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Dick Fowler

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #9 on: December 02, 2007, 12:42:34 PM »
Dick Fowler AMA 144077
Kent, OH
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Offline minnesotamodeler

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #10 on: December 02, 2007, 04:10:05 PM »
I use the Palomar; recommend it.  Easy to learn, never had a failure.

--Ray
--Ray 
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2007, 07:58:59 PM »
Did not know there were so many kinds of knots.  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #12 on: December 03, 2007, 01:27:25 AM »
Did not know there were so many kinds of knots.  DOC Holliday
How'd you get to be an Admiral without learning knots?  Ty will have to give you remedial lessons. 
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Offline Bob Zambelli

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #13 on: December 03, 2007, 08:11:29 AM »
Phil - great info. I learned a lot.

Question - if not already discussed, what about long-term effects from UV?

Bob Z.

Offline Rog Strickler

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #14 on: December 03, 2007, 10:09:27 AM »
Phil - great info. I learned a lot.

Question - if not already discussed, what about long-term effects from UV?

Bob Z.

Bob, That'll take a long term test. RRRRRRR
Rog

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2007, 05:03:55 PM »
How'd you get to be an Admiral without learning knots?  Ty will have to give you remedial lessons. 

Sorry Howard, from your days in KC you should remember I was an old farm boy that none of the services wanted.  Sparky is the one that bestowed the rank of Admiral on me.  Most of my knots back then were with bailing wire or barb wire fencing.  JJ still yells at me for using a nail instead of a cotter pin in places.  Also don't fish so had no reason for knot learnin.  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline ray copeland

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Re: Q & A for alternative flying lines
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2007, 08:56:42 PM »
We leave a set of lines laying in the backyard at all times ready to hook up and fly made of 30# fusion spiderwire. Of course these are for 1/2a planes and only 30 feet long. Roll them up to mow the "flying field" every couple of weeks and put back down. No failures yet .. Triple overhand or polamar knots hooked to fishing swivels, one red for up and one brass for down. Did lose one set of lines due to doggy tangle!!
Ray from Greensboro, North Carolina , six laps inverted so far with my hand held vertically!!! (forgot to mention, none level!) AMA# 902150

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