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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Perry Rose on November 16, 2016, 03:57:35 PM
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I favor a more in line set up like the Primary Force, engine thrust line , wing chord line and stab on or near the same line.. Does anyone have experience with in line and close to inline profile designs? What are your findings?
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A TEOSAWKI has been my best flying airplane. However, I am at best a mid range advanced flyer.
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Hi Perry,
My input, for what it is worth, Is that I have flown both designs and I think without a doubt, the Primary Force is the best flying profile I have ever owned and it is inline. The plane is elevator only and it flies as well as any flapped model I ever flew. That being said, I am not an aerodynamic engineer and I am speaking as a layman and strictly personal experience. I am sure you will get a lot of input on this thread and pros and cons from each camp. For me, If it flies, I'm good.
Mike
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No surprise here, I would give the Teosawki the advantage in flying , I have been flying a couple different Clayton Smith built Teosawki models for over 10 years. Big, lightweight , overpowered . Good combination . They have won or placed in many profile events over the years .
But they are not available any more as Clayton built original models ARF , the original Clayton built models bring very high prices for those willing to sell . A very different , non traditional looking model.
The primary force is available , kits and some ARF models still out there , affordable and a very good flying model when properly powered and easy to trim.
Both are non flapped stunt models ,
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My Shoestring 45 is a non-flapped profile airplane that has the wing on the thrust line and the horizontal tail .35 above the thrust line. Dennis Lipsett can tell you how it flies.
Pat
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HI Will, What in your opinion is the optimum power plant for the Primary Force? I'd really like to know what you think!
Phil Spillman
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My Shoestring 45 is a non-flapped profile airplane that has the wing on the thrust line and the horizontal tail .35 above the thrust line. Dennis Lipsett can tell you how it flies.
Pat
I have been flying one of Pat's Shoestring 45 s for a couple of years. Firstly it is a well designed and engineered kit, no flex, builds light and very sturdy. With a smooth running 45 (Enya Pro Stunt) it has taken me back from a 30 year absence to the full pattern. While I am not yet back to where I was once, it definately shows the ability to perform a competitive pattern and I have yet to find anything negative in flight characteristics. ......and it looks like an airplane.
Picture of PDK, Goldberg (Brodak), Sig Shoestrings.
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Gordon,
Thanks for the input and the kind words. I didn't mean to slight you by not mentioning you.
Pat
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I have been flying one of Pat's Shoestring 45 s for a couple of years. Firstly it is a well designed and engineered kit, no flex, builds light and very sturdy. With a smooth running 45 it has taken me back from a 30 year absence to the full pattern. While I am not yet back to where I was once, it definately shows the ability to perform a competitive pattern and I have yet to find anything negative in flight characteristics. ......and it looks like an airplane.
Gordon has pretty well summed up the flying characteristic's of the model. It is as good as the Primary force and a Sockitumi. Also it is good looking and everyone original thought it was a Goldberg Shoestring on steroids. It isn't, its better than that model by a longshot, did I mention that it has a great corner. others who have flown it liked it also. Mine is powered with an OS/LA 46 and it is a perfect match for the model.
Dennis
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Thanks Dennis! Your commission check is in the mail! LL~ LL~
Pat
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Thanks Dennis! Your commission check is in the mail! LL~ LL~
Pat
Pat,
ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
A commission check!
I'm going to bronze it and hang it on the wall. My first commission check. LOL!
Dennis
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My wife tells me I've been out of commission for a long time. So, what I want to know is how do I get back in????? ;D
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HI Will, What in your opinion is the optimum power plant for the Primary Force? I'd really like to know what you think!
Phil Spillman
Best I had was a FP 20 with stock muffler . , 2.5 ounce hays tank ,run on 10/22 powermaster , thunderbolt plug , 9 to 9.5 diameter prop 4 to 4.5 pitch prop , run fast 2 stroke.
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Will, when using an OS FP20 on a PF, are you talking about a kit built PF or a PF ARF?
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My Shoestring 45 is a non-flapped profile airplane that has the wing on the thrust line and the horizontal tail .35 above the thrust line. Dennis Lipsett can tell you how it flies.
Pat
I'm intrigued Pat - what's the difference between this and the original Goldberg Shoestring? I can't find any photo's or plans listed on professor Google.
Cheers
Paul
(Just starting stunt again after a 20 year lay off . . . . and I wasn't very good before) H^^
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Here's an Outerzone link to the Goldberg Shoestring. There are very major differences.
http://www.outerzone.co.uk/plan_details.asp?ID=6873
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http://pdkllc.com/shoestring-45-180/
http://pdkllc.com/shoestring-45-electric-180/
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The text on the web site is messed up and I can't edit the site at this time. The Glow airplane is for .40 to .53 engines. The electric airplane is for a 35mm outrunner. The price for the glow airplane is $175.00 plus Priority mail shipping for 3 pounds from 60449. The electric airplane is $177.00 plus the same shipping. You can buy a set of .pdf full size plans for either airplane for $5.00 .
Dennis built the Yellow airplane on the site. Gordon built the other one.
Pat
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how much room is there on the electric model between the motor and the LE for a battery?.
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From the back of the motor to the LE is 4 1/2". The battery fits in the outboard cheek cowl, that is 6 1/4" long. The inboard cheek cowl encloses the ESC and timer. The picture shows some construction, the builder changed the motor mounting to suit him.
Pat
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Ken Armish built the electric Shoestring shown on Pat Kings site. Plenty of room for the required battery. I believe that he used a Cobra 20/5? with a 3000 mah 4 cell and it was more than enough.The battery fit with no problems and is enclosed in the cheek cowl with the ESC and Hubin timer in the other side. Everything is enclosed and it makes for a truly attractive model.
It is a really great flyer and having had the pleasure of flying it was enough to convince me that I should investigate electric power a little more seriously. I did and glow is now almost gone from my inventory.
Dennis
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Comparison picture of Shoestrings - PDK/ Enya 45, Goldberg (BrodK) /Enya 25, Sig/ Rossi 15.
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Perry, from all I've tried variations between the thrustline and the wing and or stab don't affect much. Usually the thrust line is raised 5% of the avg. chord or so, approx. half an inch. That's mostly to balance the vertical CG with the leadouts. More important than where the stab is make the tail moment longer and the stab larger. It's hard to go wrong with a stab that is 25% of the wing. You can get both too long or too short with the tail moment. A good role model is a 3-view of the Grumman Hellcat. It had a large stab ~25%, a big wing- ~40% more wing area than most of the similar vintage fighters.
Based on Pat's reviews, you can use that same basic layout for almost any styled plane you want. The Shoestring was a very pretty design. I built a midwing Cosmic wind(the Minnow version was rebuilt to a midwing). It flew very well. I've built a near scale P-51 that flys very nice too. It has a bit higher thrust line, maybe an inch above the wing and dihedral. You can make many good looking, good flying planes using a similar formula, ala' Al Rabe. Scale the wing 20-30% larger than the fuselage, enlarge the scale stab to 25%, make the fuselage roughly 1in/ft scale. Then tweak the profile, wing centerline, and either shrink the fuselage height or stretch the fuselage to get the right tail placement and tweak the shape and placement of the cockpit, fin/rudder so it looks right. Planes look more realistic with larger fuselages but they don't have to be religiously scale outlines. The P-51 scale fuselage would have been nearly 8inches high. Using a CAD program I slimmed it down to 6.5in, made the canopy and rudder bigger, and slimmed the airscoop.
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Will, when using an OS FP20 on a PF, are you talking about a kit built PF or a PF ARF?
It was a scratch built model, not extremely light , but strong and straight , flew very good , it really opened my eyes to the power of the fp 20 ,
It had a short life due to a mishap. Lost the motor and plane .
I really like the looks of the shoestring , need to give Ken a call about it.