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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Tim Wescott on April 24, 2023, 11:44:32 AM
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I'm curious.
I believe that it's possible that I might give a profile 19 or 20 appearance points -- if they showed up with an absolutely impeccable airplane, that had a color-matching fuel tank and an engine that was dressed out the same way that a hot-rodder would dress out an exposed engine on a T-bucket, or someone might dress out the engine on their custom Harley. So, basically, a profile that has all the "profile uglies" dealt with except for the narrow fuselage part.
I also think you'd have to work harder to achieve the effect than it would be to just build a full-fuselage airplane, but hey...
How do other folks, who have done judging, feel about this? Have you ever seen anyone try it, how close did they come, and what score did you give?
(Note that for the term "profile", just use whatever definition is local to you, maybe with a word of what that is. Here in the Pacific Northwest we allow a thicker cross-section ahead of the wings, but it still has to be "profile" behind the wings, and the engine has to be exposed "lugs to plug").
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In no contest have I seen profiles judged in the profile events.. If it was in Classic, etc, then it was judged. D>K That being said, I have seen some drop dead beautiful profiles simply because the builder was that kind of guy.. H^^
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I have had to fly profiles in PA on two occasions and I got lower, but respectable appearance points. The planes were well built and properly finished (not NATs standard but certainly presentable). I don't think that simply being a profile is much of a reason to downgrade the points. If I remember correctly, I was somewhere around 2 points under the average full body.
Ken
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If memory serves me (sometimes questionable), there was a Ring Master flown in the Classic event at the VSC. Builder will not be named here. It received 20 points for appearance. This was not awarded as a joke. I think all that witnessed and knows about this Ring Master would agree with that assessment. I do not remember how it placed, but I am sure it was in or near the top 10 in a field of probably 50 or more. (Yes, VSC had OTS and Classic entry numbers in excess of 70 or 80.)
Keith
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In no contest have I seen profiles judged in the profile events.
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I was thinking if someone entered a profile in PA or Classic. You do see that in local contests; I'm not sure if it's happened at the Nats or not.
In fact, the entire field of PA planes at the last contest I judged (yesterday) were profiles. All three of them. In the rain. With, in at least one case, the competitor's regular PA plane safely tucked into his truck, because it was moderately heavy rain.
It's what got me thinking. All the planes involved weren't built for top score finishes, and their appearance score suffered.
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Frank Williams, how did your Bearcat fare in appearance judging back in the 80s?
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If memory serves me (sometimes questionable), there was a Ring Master flown in the Classic event at the VSC. Builder will not be named here. It received 20 points for appearance. This was not awarded as a joke.
I'll name him - Jim "Uncle Jimby" Aron. It was absolutely no joke or gag, it was a legitimate candidate for the 20 points and to my knowledge, no one had any beef with it. It's the RSM Ringmaster kit box art model.
Appearance is about just that, appearance, which usually boils down to graphic design and execution, not how flat the fuselage might be. If anything, doing a really good job on a profile is harder than with a regular airplane, but if you manage it, I see no reason it shouldn't be just as good as anything else. It's kind of like Monokote, it's not impossible to get a perfect finish, just much harder, to the point almost no one can do it very well.
Brett
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I'll name him - Jim "Uncle Jimby" Aron.
Uncle Jimby could pull that off. He definitely makes prettier airplanes than I've ever managed.
... If anything, doing a really good job on a profile is harder than with a regular airplane, but if you manage it, I see no reason it shouldn't be just as good as anything else. It's kind of like Monokote, it's not impossible to get a perfect finish, just much harder, to the point almost no one can do it very well.
My thought exactly. With a full fuse you can hide all the tank, plumbing and engine "ugly" inside the cowl. With a profile you'd have to make it pretty.
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Uncle Jimby could pull that off. He definitely makes prettier airplanes than I've ever managed.
Given that the total effect is a combination of craftsmanship, attention to detail, and creative/artistic ability, I think Jim is the best I have ever seen at it. And I don't say that lightly - I have seen them all over the last 40ish years.
BTW, everything else he does (down to contest fliers, and the absolutely amazing Baby Ringmaster kit/contest prize) is almost always brilliant.
Brett
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I received 18 points at Brodaks with my profile I flew in PAMPA at Brodaks. I was very pleased.
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At our contests, if a profile is flown in PA, it will get appearance points as applicable. (BOM) When the same plane is flown in profile competition, appearance will be assigned to a trophy award for "Judges Choice."
Norm
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Hard to believe that Tim and others found a rainy day for an April contest here in the PNW. April showers bring May flowers, you know.
August is almost always dry. Early July is typically wet. October and February can be very nice, but don't bet the farm on it. SH^ Steve
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Given that the total effect is a combination of craftsmanship, attention to detail, and creative/artistic ability, I think Jim is the best I have ever seen at it. And I don't say that lightly - I have seen them all over the last 40ish years.
BTW, everything else he does (down to contest fliers, and the absolutely amazing Baby Ringmaster kit/contest prize) is almost always brilliant.
Brett
I was making plaques for the Las Vegas contest. I thought they needed some artistic help, so I sent Jimby a draft. He took over and fretted about the artwork for two weeks. He decided the logo lettering looked raggedy, so he went online, found the font they'd used, bought a copy, and spiffed up the logo. I mentioned that I was making plaques for a local contest, too. Same deal. Jimby commandeered the artwork, cleaned up our club logo, and came up with a choice of cool designs for the plaques.
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Hard to believe that Tim and others found a rainy day for an April contest here in the PNW...
We work hard at what we do.
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Painted gas tanks? No thanks.
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Why Not ?
Suppose its wasted on a Yamaha .
S?P(https://i.pinimg.com/736x/96/6b/76/966b760787460c9298ea09a811160e8c.jpg)
Theres few ' Far Out ' type paint schemes used . ' FORMAL ' seems to be the norm .
These guys've painted their air Intakes . Call it NOSE ART ! . LL~ S?P VD~
Swiss , (https://www.warbirdphotographs.com/LCBW7/Me109E3a-Swiss-Fliegerkompanie21-[Fl.Kp.21]-with-Shark-Mouth-Switzerland-263.jpg)
And FINNISH .(https://ww2aircraft.net/forum/attachments/15355820581_b68fba6ceb-jpg.282120/)
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Suppose it’s wasted on a Yamaha
Not quite the same thing.
….and that’s horrendous.
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The BIKE or the TANK ? ;D
could start a new trend .
Liked the one with the steel and rivets painted under the ' blown back ' paint job .
Some Cal. Custom pin striping and ' arty strange mind ' sxchemes'd lighten things up a bit .
THIS 'd be ONE example of a SKILLED comprehesive intricate scheme , that should be valuable . Rewarding for the patient , and Score Points . ON A AIRPLANE .
(https://live.staticflickr.com/13/17940851_a4e28699a6_b.jpg)
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Painted gas tanks? No thanks.
Really? Looks OK to me.
Brett
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As Aperance IS ABOUT WORKMANSHIP , CRAFTSMANSHIP , AND HIDING FLAWS BEHIND PAINT LINES opps
And Lack of Faults , tecnically it would be prejudice if they didnt ' score ' .
Tho Ive not read the rules and my finishing isnt in the ballpark . Or is in the ballpark whilst the real finishers are In the Hall . :(
Id thougfht profiles were to get in the air quick'n easy . But a mind numbing paint job , on a profile or otherwise , should do well,
Tho apparently gloss is better'n matte finishes . S?P ; ;D
As a ' Forigner ' we saw the extreme U S Stuff in car & bike magaines . Couldnt read but saw the pictures :-X
One bloke Recond He'd imported 1500 worth of nail polish for the ' Pearl Matelic red ' on a bucket ( T Bucket )
was a THING about CHROME too . ' Spit & Polish ' in the U.K. .
Id thought BRODAK went to a lot of trouble with WINDY to Introduce PEARLS & METALICS .
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
the whole California Rod , Custom finish , Bling thing was what Id Thought ' appearance ' was about , in the 60s for Control Line Aerobatics .
A intricate job like this , done well , on a P A Plane should score WELL . As it'd take days or weeks or months done LIGHT . Gets into ' taste ' tho . and thats poisonal .
(https://live.staticflickr.com/1903/44814061914_5f2b28284e_b.jpg)
Im sure it took more than 10 minutes to do this . tho I wouldnt have it on My car , thanks .On a plane it should be worth a million , or close .
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/9b/86/bf/9b86bf7c7976ed0d9743176e714525b4.jpg)
A simple PLAIN BLACK GLOSS paint finish should score high , as the most impossable to do flawlessly . Or to achive .
(https://images.cdn.circlesix.co/image/1/700/0/uploads/posts/2018/06/7a089526495b389fef023d1e31851bcd.jpg)
(https://i0.wp.com/patganahl.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/01/Sein13.jpg?ssl=1)
Not so keen on the ' art for arts sake ' stuff , but a awful lot of workmanship AND work in a decent one .
Does it mention the word ' profile ' in the rules / also any exposed engineering would be susceptable to ' finishing . New trend , open cowls & chome & polish .
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YOIKS .
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR6spU6EI9JCRpYqQJKxYWwjtV64hj3qBXFMw&usqp=CAU)
Get To it .
Gas Tank !
ART .
(https://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/braga-cat-illusion-2.jpg)
Some view the ' box ' Fuse.'s as two by fours . But someones MADE an EFFORT , so deserves points for TRYING . Mate .
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQic_AMXShTqYfqWkY_AgyG57rxEDbhqmKBazFgzxVpT2okcuVDxBezzV-q0zI0eO1z-wc&usqp=CAU)
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Painted gas tank on a profile I would think is too susceptible to paint damage from fuel.
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Thats why youd engrave & polish it VD~ .
Actually , seen a REFERANCE to a 8 thou. Stainless Steel Fuel Tank for F2B .
less corosion prone . From fuel . VD~ PHOSPHORIC ACID for FLUX for soldering stainless and its No worries .
would Polish up real well . Started as a elbow in the ribs , But a DETAILED ' displayed ' Engine could garner points ,
if all polished engraved detailed and workmanlike .
youd have to snip the fuel tube saftey wire even & aligned , like the saftey wire for ' on track' m'Cycles . ! ! !
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSTqhY8oH_5B6mXMSay1jD3NRN9GYdIOaYjmw&usqp=CAU)
The engraving or whatever you call it , on the powerplant , might be a point scorer to . So PROFILES might have a advantage . VD~
(https://www.throttlextreme.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/Dressed-To-Kill-Supra-engine.jpg)
Apparently the one in the red things Etched Chrome , whereasthis is engraved . looks like some gold or silver got into the equation too .
Making the Best of what you Have !
(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTNsrKFFzNdGY5OOwaRreMscwzR1u7BfVoJIWZ8pdYCR5bc76k6ox1lKEOpxhtO7B5uajk&usqp=CAU)
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Painted gas tank on a profile I would think is too susceptible to paint damage from fuel.
Most modern paint is effectively immune to raw fuel.
Brett
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Sitting a LA 46 case in petrol seems to have softened it no end , Was gone on fin edges etc anyway . But immersion for a few days seems to have got it fairly easilly removeable . Dunno what they painted them with .
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I retract my post then. Painting the tank on a profile is Aok. y1
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INDEED ,
This blokes ahead of us , youd think He'd been spying .
(https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/343603739_778816566879269_5442107152393698396_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=110&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=heTZYmSV2LUAX-HhyKT&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=00_AfDNfYaaByPKZH-nuIixGmNpApmGPvdWyxXI0chto82TxA&oe=645C4C5D)
Could be done for Camoflage , so as you cant see it !
Or just to blend in with the general tri colour scheme . ;)
(https://scontent.fsyd4-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/343763803_1291143501483201_3982989332336244303_n.jpg?stp=cp6_dst-jpg&_nc_cat=102&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=5cd70e&_nc_ohc=FhRt5PD3JJ0AX88H5nD&_nc_ht=scontent.fsyd4-1.fna&oh=00_AfCC2nGnI-rjrpQyDXgM98b3XbOtByIs4VCvUfF0x8BrFg&oe=645C9A13)
He had it at the field yesterday . Stallion 35 . Sign writing completed . A Twister . Looks better ' in the flesh ' than pictured . Very Tidy .
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I'm going to paint the tank and the engine on my next profile. S?P
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I'm going to paint the tank and the engine on my next profile. S?P
Kevin, Be sure to plug the venturi & exhaust port.......... LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
Good luck, Jerry
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Thanks Jerry. I will post pictures when i am done. I have some 2 part automotive clear, i just need to find a compatible base coat color. Any suggestions on what to use? Will grey acrylic Lacquer primer, White dope, and then 2 part automotive clear work? Anyone?
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That Pinto has a reverse flame effect coming from the back instead of the front!
Apropos I think. y1
Steve
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Pauls Tank ready for clear.
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Kevin,
I have some 2 part automotive clear, i just need to find a compatible base coat color. Any suggestions on what to use? Will grey acrylic Lacquer primer, White dope, and then 2 part automotive clear work? Anyone?
Any 2 part automotive urethane finish should be completely resistive to raw fuel. I think the key is how the base coat is applied, at a minimum a good scuffing and precleaning of the tank surface should assure a good bite exists for the lacquer primer to stay adhered.
Steve
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Thanks Steve. I just finished spraying the clear. 2 part Pro Form Acrylic Urethane. Scuffed up the white with 600 to add tooth. I think it will be fine.
https://youtu.be/lL7cv5cIp-8
Ready for maiden flight.