Probably my Last Post on St. Hanger!

[Hoss Cain]

  Yep I will be cast out after this post, looking for another forum. However M.Graves and his 22 year off - plus along with the devil - made me do it. 

Way back in the beginning, about 1970-73, I gave up my CL Stunt days for the RC bug. As the owner of a Hobby Shop and all was going RC, I had to get into what I was selling. I was one of the first to bring a foreign radio and several ARFs, other than the few made by DuBro, and those others - Atlanta group - that were a tad heavy + overpriced, but folks bought them. Likewise I fostered keeping built airplanes available, they certainly sold, so I have experience in what the market wanted.

Ready built CL models went like hot-cakes (today, nachos!). Building still prevailed but ready builts and ARFs were on their way in. About that time +/-, RC Pattern dropped the Builder of the Model Rule/s. You already see where I am going. 
So dig in your heels, face reality and here it is, but a tad more evidence before I really blast off.  Look at the just past Houston Stunt Report: The one big CL Stunt contest in all of Houston, TX with 8 entries in Expert, 3 Advanced, 1 in Beginner.  OTS   4 entries   Classic same 4 plus 2.

I really wanted to make that meet this year. New self designed stunter still in mostly bones.
Didn't make it. An Arf would have been ready a couple months ago -- I thinnnk! But who wants an ARF? 

Yesterday, I was Flight Line director at the famous Bomber Field for an all size War Bird RC fly-In. Ususally draws 75 or more. Drew 30 pilots. I saw 3 built-up models fly. I saw a number of exquisite Hanger Queens remain there. My main Club had a Pattern Meet meet this weekend, drew 35, also down from the normal 40+ pilots.  Guys, time and money is hitting everyone regardless of the model type. ARFs are what folks do in this age.

Somewhat away from my "evidence", without the few in-house reproductions, so drastically overpriced, building a model is like the spark and points engine. It's nearly over, not for me, however I am way too old to pursue hardcore competition anymore. Now the garage manufacturers will say "OH NO", "OH NO", and the contest Boards will be bombarded adequately to say, the Builder of the Model Rule is definitely sacred and thus can never die.   Well maybe not the rule, but a heck of a lot of would-be CL fliers already have.

When I saw RC Pattern no longer supported BOM, I knew it was over. When I saw the masses buying built models so readily, I asked why did CL Stunt hang on so tightly? Even at the '73 Oshkosh NATs, I observed daddy built models being flown by youngsters. ( I knew the daddies and the youngsters) Those that were playing by the rules never had a chance. They still don't. Here we are 40 years down the pike, and the biggest obstacle to real numbers of CL modelers is still that age-old BOM Rule.

In 1996, I was in a place where partial RC Scale Kits were made. The owner had several personal scale models being produced for his own competition, by his staff. Don't ask, I won't tell!  How does this compare to CL?  SOS - DD!  I hear of CL Stunters getting certain plug and play wings, etc. and there you are. $$$$ (even yankee ones) can build anything.

In this day and age there are just far too many things that folks have to take care of and perform. BOM is far too much, except for that select few that know the real score and will do their utmost to keep  that score. Having a number of different events of the same kind just to get some dumb trophy is ludicrous. They mean nothing. How do I know? I dumped 125 trophies and plaques in a dumpster in June, 1983. None were the result of any model built by other than me. So while I have lived by BOM for CL, I see no need of it if the CL activity is to come back as it should. BTW there are at least 25 more trophies/plaques rotting away in my barn. None are of "Nationals" competition. Why are they still there. Good question!

So, it's time to get CL stunt back into the game, just like Pattern Fliers. What does it matter who built it? It's the hand on the stick that makes the difference. Ask a Fighter Ace!

[RC Storick]

Well you wont get booted for how you feel. However I will tell you this RC is dieing faster than CLPA. Who wants to see the cookie cutter crap at a RC field. Foamies that aren't worth a S***.. Who has the largest participation  CLPA why try to fix something that ain't broke? Most local contests will let you fly a BARF anyway. What was your last NATS appearance? This is about 1 contest a year that MOST dont fly anyway.

I know one thing for sure if the BOM is dropped I will not attend another NATS. Why spend 5 days and over 1000.00 to go to a contest that is the same as I can find here local? Waste of time and money. Let alone see all the same ARFS in a line. No thanks!

[Brett Buck]

What does it matter who built it? It's the hand on the stick that makes the difference. Ask a Fighter Ace!

  You may be well-meaning, but this is the same sort of nonsense spouted every 6 months by every "do-gooder" that has come along. It matters because the event is *building a model and competing with it*. If it's not that, it's a bunch of immature fat guys playing with toy airplanes in a soybean field. Changing it as you suggest is essentially destroying the current event and replacing it with a lesser version that may or may not be more popular.

   I would also note that the other competition events, most of which foolishly bought the same argument you make, are dying. We are *growing* and consistently one of the highest-entry events at the NATs. So, unless you are involved - and you *are not* - then I would kindly suggest that you learn something about the event before offering your sage advice, because, with all due respect, you have no idea what you are talking about.

      Brett

   

[wwwarbird]

 Thanks Brett, and Sparky.

 I hope this thread doesn't start another waste of time "debate", I might actually puke this time.

 I'd like to suggest locking it RIGHT NOW.

[Sean McEntee]

          I think there is something to both arguments.  Yes, the Nat's are still well attended, and there is no reason to change it at that level.  The problem lies at the local level.  I remember, back when I was a kid, when the skill classes were bottom heavy.  Judging beginner or intermediate at the Sig contest was an all-day affair, with 30+ entries, and similar numbers at other contest.  The entries today are a far cry from those numbers.  Attendance in general is shrinking.  Of course the often-used economic excuse may be applicable, but it is also in part to the simple fact that the CL Stunt community is aging.  I know a handful of guys who have "retired" from competitive flying in the past 5 years due to health reasons, persuit of other hobbies, ect.  Others simply dont travel as far as they used to.  8-10 hours in a car my be allot more difficult now than it was 10 years ago.  
           What concerns me, as one of the younger members of the hobby, is not what occurs in the next 5 or 10 years, but where things will be 20-30 years from now, after much of the people reading this are gone.  Can you imagine being the only CL flyer in your STATE?  Can you think of what it would be like to travel 12 hours just to go to A CONTEST?  That is something that has been on my mind for awhile.  I dont see the hobby growing, but I will put my faith in Brett since he may have statistics that I do not.  I will also assume that the rate of newcomers, retreads, ect are effectively supplementing the numbers that we are losing to age, loss of interest, or other outside influences.  But will that be the case 20 years from now?  Its sort of upsetting to me to sit here and think about losing so many good friends, but its a fact of life.  Will CLPA be able to keep up with recruiting once the "die-off" rate REALLY starts to increase?

          What may eventually happen is the few remaining "old time" modelers--guys who were there at the turn of the century and remember--will have to come to a decision.  I'm talking about guys like myself, Matt Colan, Todd Lee, Rob Young, Mike Paris, Rob Gruber(currently planning a comeback), The Moon bros, and others in my age bracket.  That right there is a list of guys who love building, and all want to see the BOM stay. However we may have to make that decision to drop BOM as a last ditch effort to save the hobby and encourage newcomers. It would be at the risk of allot of "grave-rolling", and it might not even work, and control-line stunt will be something that you could only read about at the AMA Museum...

          Of course the optimist in me likes to think that none of that will happen.  I wrote in my Next Generation article in this-coming issue of SN that I can see myself taking my grandkids (God-willing) to contests, and that CL stunt will flourish into my my golden years and beyond.  I hope it will be just as hard to capture a 20-point finish at the 2070 Nat's as it is today (I'm praying that Im in the shape and form that Doc Holiday is in at that age!!).  We will just have to see what happens.

          So for the immediate future, Hoss, Brett, Bob and Wayne, I say keep it as it is.  Things may change someday, but you guys most likely wont be there to have to change it  

[Larry Fernandez]

Hoss, Hoss, Hoss.
We have been down this road way too many times.
I'm am going to capitalize the next sentence so that it might sink in easier.

BOM IS ONLY ENFORCED IN THE OPEN EVENT AT THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I will state that again in case you didn't get it the first time
BOM IS ONLY ENFORCED IN THE OPEN EVENT AT THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Have you even competed in Open at the national championships?
If no, why would this even concern you???
Those that compete in open at the national Championships would not even dream of flying an ARF or an ARC at that event.
So it becomes a moot point. Those that fly at that level, usually build and fly their own designs. But they would want to build their own plane because they can all build lighter, straighter and better than any ARF.
Why do we have to go over this again and again.
One of the great aspects of this hobby is to go to a contest and drool over the masterpieces that Northern California is known for.
How lame would it be to go to a contest just to see a bunch of ARF's with bubbled and oil lifted Mono-cote.
Its more than just flying, its also about creativity, workmanship and pride.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

PS. It really wouldn't break my heart if you decide to leave this forum and never post again.

[Derek Barry]

I was just at the Joe Nall, possibly the largest RC (and now CL) fun fly event in the world. Thousands of people attend from all over the country and the world. The event lasts 7 days and anything that flies is there. Hundreds of people came over to the control line circles to watch and participate in control line flying. Many of the top level RC pilots came through and either tried CL for the first time or for the first time in 20-30 years. After seeing my airplanes, these top level pilots immediately knew that I had built and painted them myself. Their first question was "You guys still have a BOM don't you?" I said yes we do. ALL of them said, "I wish we still did, I am tired of this buy and fly stuff. If you can't afford a multi-thousand dollar composite ARF you are not competitive anymore." They all admitted to losing numbers and every one of them wanted the BOM to come back. Getting rid of the BOM is the death blow to any event!!!

Derek

[Andrew Tinsley]

I always think that it is a shame when people leave the forum, for whatever reason. I don't compete in any comps and I always build my own planes. Well almost always, I have been known to buy a complete plane at the right price! I hate commercial RTF models, but that is just me! I really don't care what other people do, because it is a free country. Why on earth do people not involved with the US Nats get hot under the collar about BOM. All it does is to get people mad and the arguments just go on forever.

Regards,

Andrew.

[EddyR]

Hoss   
  I think you are just bored with model aircraft. That's OK but you don't have to make up reasons to stop building and flying. BOM issues are just an excuse. Just stop doing what you don't like and do what you want. I find that when people come on here and say they are not coming back they want sympathy. They want everone to ask them to stay. You could have stopped posting and no one would have notice. To come  here and blame your frustration on the hobby is lame. I have many interest that are more important that CL flying and building but to come on here and blame my lack of interest on some part of the HOBBY would be kidding my self. Stop kidding youself and move on to things that interest you. Have fun at whatever you are going to do.
 EddyR

[john e. holliday]

Hoss I am going to take time to answer as I am  getting ready to hit the road.   I think modeling does take periods of time when things get slack.   Mostly because of the people that were the booster/supporters are gone.  I went by the new field for RC at the park on beginners night a couple of weeks ago.   Did not recognize any of the half dozen people that were there.   Nobody would even talk to me even tho I know they do not know who I am.   I was president, event director and instructor at one time for the club.  Even on weekends there are very few people flying.   Used to be we would have to wait in line or waitfor the frequency pen to fly/teach.   Used to be the same way for control line back in the 50's, 60's ad 70's.

If you want to leave the forum that is your loss.   As the pastor said at Church one evening,  "The Church doesn't need the people, it's the people that need the Church".   

[louie klein]

I'm for building and flying and having FUN doing it. Competing is a club or personal choice. I compete with myself every time I fly. I am getting back after 20Yrs also and so is another fellow in our six man club. I left it because of picky, picky, picky at the contests. I go to meets when I can just to see my old buddies, It's fun. Don't leave the forum, fly for fun. I love the smell of dope and the creativity that goes into building and if it flies that's even better. I'm gonna do all the stuff I could'nt do before because it was always practise, practise with one plane or you will lose your rhythm. Now it's stunt, scale, carrier, rat race and maybe a little combat. Stay with us, It's cheaper in the long run!   ---LOUIE

[larry borden]

To throw in my two cents. I found it interesting that the latest issue of Model , they had a how-to article on scratch building. I thought we all knew how to scratch build. I have found that in my old age, I enjoy building almost more than the flying. Still love BSing with all the other old guys at gatherings like the Roundup.
Still building after all these years.

[Dwayne]

I live in Canada where we have'nt had a bom rule in forever, while I've only been to contests in Toronto I've only seen one arf, where the no bom rule does have an efect  is when someone crashes or shows up without a plane they can always use someones back up plane no harm no foul. But as far as the no bom rule and arfs  having efect on the number of entrents at contests I don't see it. I'll always build my own stuff.

[frank williams]

Hoss,
We did miss you at the Memorial Day Houston contest.   As I told you last year when you came out (October I think) your PA flying skills were definitely visible even though covered by a patina of years off flying RC.   The foundation is there, just needs to be polished back up.  Competing or not, stick time is still fun.

Contest turnout, even in the best of times, is hard to predict.   Lots of factors, weather, other activities with family, ups and downs in personal interest, and finances are just a few.  For a contest director it’s really difficult sometimes, after taking a bath one year in expensive trophies, to get ready for another year, not knowing whether or not anyone will come.   (my attic too is full of trophies, ….. ones that I have paid for myself and not given out … boxes of them)

There was at least one ARF that flew in expert at our contest last week.  I look at them as “tide me overs”, something to get one out flying till that perfect super light model comes off the board.  We would welcome you with an ARF at any contest.

For that matter, if the one in “bones” doesn’t get done and an ARF isn’t ready, we sure could use some knowledgeable help in judging, tabulating, or spelling some of the others so some more “locals” could enter and fly a pattern or two.

Even looking at the medium to low turnout this year, there was some real controlline talent on the field, that just coming out would expose one to.  There were at least three maybe four, members of the USA FAI team that will compete in Bulgaria this summer.  On Saturday there were some of the best combat matches anyone would ever want to witness.

Come on out with your ARF, we don’t care, we’ll be happy to see you.

[Larry Fernandez]

I live in Canada where we have'nt had a bom rule in forever, while I've only been to contests in Toronto I've only seen one arf, where the no bom rule does have an efect  is when someone crashes or shows up without a plane they can always use someones back up plane no harm no foul.

EXCEPT FOR THE OPEN EVENT AT THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIPS, THE SAME RULE APPLIES HERE.,
Why is this so hard to understand?!?!?!?
Except in the open event at the National Championships, you can fly anything you want, whether its an AFR, ARC, borrowed from a friend or stolen (if you don't get caught)
If you crash you plane, talk your buddy into letting you fly his. No big deal you just don't get appearance point

After ten years of this, I still don't understand why we need to fix a problem that does not exist

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Shultzie]

If you want to leave the forum that is your loss.   As the pastor said at Church one evening, "The Church doesn't need the people, it's the people that need the Church".     

THANKS DOC! Always have loved that quote~

[Hoss Cain]

 

Lordy Lordy Fellows:

My first line on my post starting this thread was:
" Yep I will be cast out after this post, looking for another forum. However M.Graves and his 22 year off - plus along with the devil - made me do it."

There is nothing about ME wanting to leave Stunt Hanger. I figured I would be THROWN OUT as some of you would like to do.  

Anyway I will never never fly a CL ARF.

I BUILD any CL that I fly. Not so with RC. I build, I buy, and I do ARFs. However my many years of aeromodeling like about 70, I have seen many trends come and go. Personally I need to research the rule book a bit better as some of you have convinced me that I am wanting in my information. I really thought that all Stunt Competition required Builder of Model. Slash my wrists and I will try to get  somewhat smarter.

So, if I am NOT yet removed, I will be back. I sure was mad that I did not get my new machines ready for the Houston event. I planned on going to Brodaks and Nationals this year, stunt and scale. Can't happen.

SO to be correct, I am still a builder, will remain here until kicked off, and ya'll have a great summer.
 Edited to change: Underlined. My screw up.

[FLOYD CARTER]

You can't use the NATS as a yardstick of what's going on all over the country.  Since the AMA decided that all NATS will be in Muncie, this leaves out many flyers from the "remote" places (like California, where, I assure you, there's plenty of activity of all sorts)

R/C is growing (according to Model Aviation).  C/L is also growing (according to contests all over this land)

For any sort of statistics to be valid, the entire nation's activities must be considered.

Floyd

[Matt Colan]

R/C is growing (according to Model Aviation).  C/L is also growing (according to contests all over this land)

I think Control-line is growing, and may start growing in Vermont, where, as far as I know, two flyers in the entire state that fly on a regular basis, myself and grandpa.  My uncle will fly a CL ship once a year, but he said he was going to by an electric super clown ARF from Brodak, just to get the wheels moving, and so he can teach his nine year old son and my youngest cousin, Christopher.  I gave my profile Fw-190 that I flew in beginner to him so he can learn how to fly.

Also, on my iPod, I have a few videos of me flying from the NATS and when my friends ask me what model airplanes I fly, when I tell them they're not RC, they want to see.  After watching the video, those same friends will say, "dude that is so badass, I want to see you do that. It looks so cool!"  So, during the summer, or when we have a beautiful day, with very light or no wind, I want to invite those five or six friends over to my house who think CL looks cool, and show them in real life.

One of my neighbors, who is 2nd in command at the Air Guard base in Burlington has expressed interest in maybe trying to get into it.

Keep BOM, because when I tell my friends that I build these airplanes, they say how awesome that is and how cool they look.  It keeps the creativity in this sport (wait until you see the paint job on my Thundergazer when I get it painted!) and that's what I love about it.  At the NATS, there were so many spectacular looking airplanes, I had a really tough time choosing which one to vote for concours, and I hope it stays that way until the universe ends.

[Tim Wescott]

This whole issue has been shoutedchewed over several times already.

I kinda like the current skill-class rules as implemented on the west coast: you can fly what you brung, no matter who built it.  But if you built it and it looks good you get a healthy dose of points to add to your total.  So fellows that just don't have the time or skill to build from scratch can buy or borrow models, and fellows who do build get a big leg-up.

Although, if we're going to have appearance points, I think it should be 40 points worth, just like any other maneuver.  (And, lest someone thing I'm suggesting something for my own benefit - my most recent contest ride got a whopping 7 appearance points).

[Sean McEntee]

Although, if we're going to have appearance points, I think it should be 40 points worth, just like any other maneuver.  (And, lest someone thing I'm suggesting something for my own benefit - my most recent contest ride got a whopping 7 appearance points).

      I think if it came to getting rid of the BOM, that this would be a good idea to give modelers a bigger incentive to build rather than purchase.  If, academically speaking of course, the BOM rule were to go away tomorrow, it would take some REEEEEELLY good flying to make up the loss of appearance points and make it to the top of the heap at the Nat's.  One would be lucky to even make it into the top twenty.  I think the removal of appearance points is what would cause all this damage that people are talking about, not the BOM rule.

[PJ Rowland]

Derek Barry :
"I wish we still did, I am tired of this buy and fly stuff. If you can't afford a multi-thousand dollar composite ARF you are not competitive anymore.


That is 100% SPOT ON...

Economy is tight.. I can spend 12 months building something exactly to my specs, painted the way I see fit, finished and done for 1/3rd of the cost of pro ARC

The problem will be - forcing out guys who are on the fringe due to House/kids/car/work stress on the Money.

If I want to fly RC pattern and Compete ... I would.. ! I prefer CLPA

[Allan Perret]

 I hope this thread doesn't start another waste of time "debate", I might actually puke this time.
 

The debate is not a waste of time, its what keeps the naysayers at bay. 
If you feel like it wastes your time, dont open the thread.
BOM  FOREVER !

[Bryan Higgins]

I really think there should be new rules and classes in the future of control line events regarding
the ARF planes and BOM plane builders.  It's that easy

Keep the old geezers happy ------- and let the kids have there fun.

Control Line will grow with the World and see changes along the way. It's up to us to keep it fun
and exciting.

Remember not all of are young youths can build a fiberglass cowl  or tune a PA .61

[wwwarbird]

The debate is not a waste of time, its what keeps the naysayers at bay. 
If you feel like it wastes your time, dont open the thread.
BOM  FOREVER !

 I'm all for keeping any existing BOM rules Allan, always have been as I've stated here multiple times. And like has been pointed out by many, it only matters at the NATS anyway. Every time the issue pops up here it's the same old arguments back and forth, just like a broken record. I'm just sick and tired of all the bickering about it. People just need to get over themselves, build, fly, and enjoy the hobby.

[wwwarbird]

Remember not all of are young youths can build a fiberglass cowl  or tune a PA .61

 And why not???

 This is a perfect, relative example of our generational degeneration of "hands-on" abilities in the U.S. Way too few of our youth care to learn anything that's not on their computer screen or cell phone. Pretty sad stuff. 

[Serge_Krauss]

I really think there should be new rules and classes in the future of control line events regarding
the ARF planes and BOM plane builders.  It's that easy

Keep the old geezers happy ------- and let the kids have there fun.

Control Line will grow with the World and see changes along the way. It's up to us to keep it fun
and exciting.

Remember not all of are young youths can build a fiberglass cowl  or tune a PA .61

I think this point has been addressed several times already. The BOM rule is completely irrelevant to whether kids or other newcomers fly CL. They suffer absolutely no obstacles to participation in CL flying because of the BOM rule, which has been applied recently only to the AMA Nats. How much clearer can that point be made?! FWIW, my club didn't give appearance points in any class at our last regional contest, and entrees were fewer again. No extra entries were possible for lack of the BOM rule, because there IS NO BOM rule in PAMPA, Classic, and OTS, profile, or ARF classes. Eliminating appearance points just made tabulation of scores easier, but, in my view, detracted from the legitimacy of our results. It certainly had no influence on attendance. In fact, our ARF event entries were way down too.

SK

[Bill Little]

We have two "local" meets a year at Huntersville.  The rest are 6 hours or more away.  This limits some participation on my part, but I try to make all I can.

I was pretty upset back when I first found out that BOM and AP had been dropped from all classes.  I felt that the PAMPA rules on non BOM models were good as is.  I also felt I deserved something for building my own models.  By dropping AP, I was being penalized!  Nevertheless, AP have not bee awarded around here for years, and I have not seen a huge increase in participation because of it.  Even when BOM and AP were in use in local meets, having a non BOM model did not exclude anyone from flying in the meet, only that they did not receive AP.

So, unless I fly at the NATS in an Age group (Open in my case), BOM and AP have no bearing on any meet I fly in.  I do hope that the NATS AGE GROUPS continue to enforce the BOM as far as being eligible to compete.

Bill

[John Stiles]

Hoss I am going to take time to answer as I am  getting ready to hit the road.   I think modeling does take periods of time when things get slack.   Mostly because of the people that were the booster/supporters are gone.  I went by the new field for RC at the park on beginners night a couple of weeks ago.   Did not recognize any of the half dozen people that were there.   Nobody would even talk to me even tho I know they do not know who I am.   I was president, event director and instructor at one time for the club.  Even on weekends there are very few people flying.   Used to be we would have to wait in line or waitfor the frequency pen to fly/teach.   Used to be the same way for control line back in the 50's, 60's ad 70's.

If you want to leave the forum that is your loss.   As the pastor said at Church one evening,  "The Church doesn't need the people, it's the people that need the Church".   

Your Pastor made a booboo........."the people are the church"! That white building with the bells and steeple is not it.

[Bob Whitely]

Love the BOM and APs'. Should have them at every contest! You don't like it?
Then don't compete! What, you should get a ribbon or whatever just for
entering? I don't think so. 
I'm just sayin'...RJ

[Dave_Trible]

Well, sure stirred a discussion!  I am now firmly in the camp to keep BOM.  I always thought it should be kept for the Nats and any expert-class contest but thought it could help participation to let lesser events do as they wished (they will anyway). I think now that we shouldn't change our event for a very few, rather try other things to promote our sport.  Baseball hasn't gone to four or five strikes to get a few more hits.  People actually have more time to build now than a generation ago-it's just choosing how they spend that time.  The stuff is expensive enough now.  Let's not get where we have to decide if it'll be a new car or a new stunter next year. If you want to buy and fly-go for it.  If you wish to compete-compete.

Dave

[Steve Helmick]

I've heard of St. Louis and St. Paul, and even St. Augustine, but I've never heard of a place called St. Hanger. 

[Scott Richlen]

Last Sunday we participated in an event at a local high school.  It was supposed to end at 4 p.m.  By 3:30 the RCers and their ARFs had left.  The high school kids were hanging out with us at the CL circle which had been mowed into the outfield of their baseball field.  They just kept taking turns flying our trainers.  Around 4:30 the baseball players reclaimed their field.  The kids asked for information on how to build a CLer.

So what?

So this: I think we have a lot to "sell" with our continued focus on building.  Frankly, flying is mostly self-entertainment.  It's fun, but that's about as far as it goes.  But the building skills you develop in building model airplanes have benefits that are pretty extensive - particularly if you are a young person.  Think about what you learn when you build a model: basic concepts of strength of materials (working wood is an introduction to composites!), use of adhesives, engine operation (and now, electric motor operation), aerodynamics, drafting, blue-print reading (think of how critical this is: being able to envision in 3-D from a 2-D drawing), simple escapements and fulcrums and levers, and etc.  Want to see CL grow in the youth market?  Sell the benefits to the parents!

There is a reason to keep the BOM and it has little to do with the Nats or the contests....

Scott

[Matt Colan]

Last Sunday we participated in an event at a local high school.  It was supposed to end at 4 p.m.  By 3:30 the RCers and their ARFs had left.  The high school kids were hanging out with us at the CL circle which had been mowed into the outfield of their baseball field.  They just kept taking turns flying our trainers.  Around 4:30 the baseball players reclaimed their field.  The kids asked for information on how to build a CLer.

TOnight after our semi-finals game, we were eating at McDonald's and for some reason I pulled up a video of me flying from the NATS.  I showed a couple of my teammates the video and they said they wanted to learn how to fly, it looked really cool!

Just need a good day to fly now!!

[Doug Knoyle]

Dying?

I kinda like the current skill-class rules as implemented on the west coast: you can fly what you brung, no matter who built it.  But if you built it and it looks good you get a healthy dose of points to add to your total.  So fellows that just don't have the time or skill to build from scratch can buy or borrow models, and fellows who do build get a big leg-up.

I agree with Tim.

Also, I think you might want to verify your stats.  AMA is reporting an increase in membership for the first time in 9 years - and part of that is in Control Line.  I'm getting back in after twenty years (ECLPA - whew hew!), my local CL club (Western Oregon Control-line Flyers - WOLF)(Salem, Or) is growing 25% in this month with more coming; A friend is interested along with his 17 year old son - who is going absolutely bonkers upon seeing PA and Combat at the NW Regionals. The kid feels "CL has THE STUFF that the high performance kites just can't provide" - and he is excited to learn to build.

Me - I wanted to try PA, but couldn't have got ready in time for this season if I had to build my own, so a buddy built one of the kits I had laying around since the 90's.  Yes the ARF/ARC planes are getting very good, but your not getting the performance of the top builder flyers - I know the "Y-Shark" type RTF planes are amazing, but have you seen Paul's new Impact fly?  I've got personal vid from the NWCLR a week ago with good 12-15+ winds and this thing is on rails!  Cornering like not even Paul's previous stuff could.  I plan on building, building, building to get as close to that as I can - and I want the points for doing it.  The kid who's Daddy buys a Shark for 2K shouldn't get those points.  Again, Y-Sharks are absolutely incredible RTF machines, but are not in the same league as what I saw at the NWCLR. The build-it-yourself innovators drive CL in ways RC Pattern NEVER saw.  We want to keep that!

Now, read what Tim said again.

[Scott Richlen]

Go for it Matt!  Most people have never seen CL before so it is a completely new thing for them.  The high school kids really had a lot of fun flying our trainer.  One thing you'll find out: on average, the girls learn to fly faster than the boys.

[Bob Reeves]

The real answer is the sliding scale appearance points Marvin Denny came up with a few years ago. We have used it at the last 3 of our stunt contests and it works well. Everybody is happy but for some reason I still don't understand, it hasn't became widely accepted.

[Paul Taylor]

If I understand this whole BOM and AP, I am for keeping it. BOM I don't think will effect me because I do not ever see myself making it to the OPEN class at the NATS.
I do think at some contest they offer AP's. So that would effect me. I enjoy building and try to improve with each model I glue together or reglue together. It is like putting a ship in a bottle for me.

I like what someone said above about going to a contest and seeing everyone with the same plane and the same colors. I also read in the current issue of MA where a bunch of RC guys did a club build of a RC plane. Looks like they want to do some building too.

I vote we keep it.

[dale gleason]

Hey Paul,
Your are correct in assuming some contests have APs. Texarkana, Tulsa, Dallas, Houston, Albuquerque, Baton Rouge, El Dorado, ALL District VIII Stunt contests have BOM/APs. The Marvin Denny proposal has been employeed successfully. Topeka, Wichita have  BOM/APs. NATs and VSC, ditto.
West Coast contests, Northwest Flyers, Whittier Narrows. A little more inland, but one can still find waterfront property available in Tucson, and APs.

I wouldn't enjoy a contest if I sat my Impcat down for others to look over, critique, admire, etc, and didn't get "anything for the effort", as Bob G so aptly put it.

Anyone thinking it's only a stick and rudder event, well, "stick..event", has failed to understand the first scoring in the rulebook is presenting your plane for appearance appearance judging. It's the only thing separating the U.S. stunt from the rest of the stunt world. I like it and attend contests where they have it. 
dg

[Larry Fernandez]

I enjoy building and try to improve with each model I glue together or re glue toge

And for that effort, you should be awarded appearance points!

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[Brett Buck]

If I understand this whole BOM and AP, I am for keeping it. BOM I don't think will effect me because I do not ever see myself making it to the OPEN class at the NATS.
I do think at some contest they offer AP's.

   At *all* contests, aside from when it is explicitly stated in the rules to the contrary. But it only makes a consequential difference in Open at the NATs. Otherwise, the time spent practicing instead of building an airplane should easily be able to make up the difference.

    I, and many others, have made it known that we will boycott any contest that turns into "buy-and-fly" event, and no one around here has ever even suggested that they would do that.

    Brett

[Mike Keville]

[quote author=Brett Buck link=topic=26893.msg260667#msg260667 date=1339123185 . . .     I, and many others, have made it known that we will boycott any contest that turns into "buy-and-fly" event, and no one around here has ever even suggested that they would do that.

    Brett
[/quote]

Absolutely!  Do not ever confuse our group with those in the Academy of Electric Foam Toys.

[john e. holliday]

Was there not an ARF contest/meet back a couple of years ago???    I think the  winner had a paper sack over his/her head as they held the award.   

[Brett Buck]

Was there not an ARF contest/meet back a couple of years ago???    I think the  winner had a paper sack over his/her head as they held the award.  

    A contest that was (intentionally) a parody of buy-and-fly stunt. What is intolerable is the idea that you would hold a regular PAMPA contest but have no appearance points

    Brett

[Larry Fernandez]

   A contest that was (intentionally) a parody of buy-and-fly stunt. What is intolerable is the idea that you would hold a regular PAMPA contest but have no appearance points

    Brett

Hhhhmmmm, I cant seem to recall......
Who was that unknown stunter with the bag over his head??
I hear he flys a pretty mean ARF

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

[billbyles]

   A contest that was (intentionally) a parody of buy-and-fly stunt. What is intolerable is the idea that you would hold a regular PAMPA contest but have no appearance points

    Brett

Heck, according to some of the stuff I read on the forums you should have gotten appearance points for sanding the knife edge off of the leading edge of the Strega that you er, the guy with the paper bag over his head did.  Why, that was a major modification/rebuild and should qualify you for A/Ps (uh huh, Nyuk, nyuk.)  BOM forever!

[Alex Becerril]

Mr. Buck wrote: We are *growing* and consistently one of the highest-entry events at the NATs.

 Compare PAMPA members today vs 10 years ago.
 I don't think our event is growing.

[john e. holliday]

The arguing and bickering over some stuff, mainly BOM is what is driving people away.  Also some going back to just having fun.  This is my opinion and my opinion only.

[Derek Barry]

Mr. Buck wrote: We are *growing* and consistently one of the highest-entry events at the NATs.

 Compare PAMPA members today vs 10 years ago.
 I don't think our event is growing.

One does not need to be a PAMPA member to fly at the Nats. Lower numbers in PAMPA are irrelevant to Nats turnout. Brett is right, CL Precision Aerobatics is among the highest turnout of all AMA National events. Some years it is the highest!

Derek

[John Stiles]

The arguing and bickering over some stuff, mainly BOM is what is driving people away.  Also some going back to just having fun.  This is my opinion and my opinion only.

No, it's also mine!