Power for SIG Twister

[Jim Roselle]

Hello all,

I have decided to step up from my usual 1/2a stuff and ordered a SIG Twister from my local hobby shop. I plan on stretching the fuse in the "Francherized" style but making it look like a Stuka Stunter. What would a good choice for (internal combustion) power be. I want something my hobby shop can order for me as they are locally owned and I choose to support them whenever possible, so nothing used from eBay. The SIG website recommends a .29 to .40. Would a LA .25 pull this plane well enough to learn the beginner pattern?

Thank you,

Jim

[Tim Wescott]

I asked this question here, http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=26808.0, and got tons of good answers.

The consensus seemed to be that an LA 25 would be a bit small, but a few people felt that the plane could work with that, if it were kept light.

Mine came out really porky (50oz), and seems to fly great on an LA 46.  I think it could get off the ground with a 25, but I wouldn't stunt with it.

Unless you're really good at building light, I'd say put an LA 46 on it.  You can get them new, they're not much more expensive than a new 25, and they're renowned as being easy to make work on a wide range of airplane sizes.

If you love your 25 to pieces, you may be happier learning the beginner pattern on a Sig Skyray; that plane and that engine makes a great combination.

[Steve Helmick]

Some will say yes, but I'd suggest more engine than that. One friend built one for a .25FP and it wasn't enough suds. I had a Magnum XLS .36 in mine. But it was heavy at 47 oz, and needed about everything the .36 had to offer. It would have been wonderful at 37 oz. Also, we don't know what altitude and temperatures you fly at, which matters a lot.

One thing about the SIG kit is that the spars are long enough to stretch the wingspan some, making it a better fit for (say) a .46LA. I have all the Fancherized Twister info saved in an email, and can easily mail it to you. If your email addy is in your profile, I'll do that, so be looking for it.   Steve

[Tim Wescott]

That Twister of Steve's flew great on that Magnum.  Unfortunately, some doofus crashed it through slightly bad luck compounded by a whole lot of stupidity.

[Steve Helmick]

Having checked Jim's profile and finding he's in the Phoenix AZ area...Tim and I will agree to recommend the .46LA.

I did send the Fancher-ized Twister info, along with a picture or two. Make an extra couple of ribs and stretch the span. I'd make the flaps a bit wider (3/8"?), since the horizontal tail is much enlarged. Try various mufflers and spinners to get the balance you like, and keep Tim well away from the handle end of your Twister!  Steve

[goozgog]

Easy choice. LA.46, assuming that you don't
already have something in a box you could use.
 If you're going to buy something, there really isn't
anything better that's reasonably priced for this
level of airframe.

Cheers!

[Tim Wescott]

... and keep Tim well away from the handle end of your Twister!

Hey!

The last time one of my airplanes suffered an unscheduled contact with the ground, Steve was flying it*.

The next flight, he stunted it so violently that the muffler fell apart**.

* Of course, I tend to set my handle spacing way narrower than Steve does, and he used my handle.

** Of course, it was a hand-made trick muffler with really poor adhesion on the solder joints.

[Andrew Saunders]

I use an O.S MAX FP 40. I extended my fuselage two inches like the francherised and it flies great. I use the FP 40 with a 11x4 APC prop or a master airscrew 10x6. Flies real well.

[Jim Roselle]

Thanks for the input, the LA .46 it is. As I said in my first post I am moving up from 1/2a. What type of handles are recommended for a model this size? What line length will this thing fly on?

Jim

[Tim Wescott]

Jim, you'll get different answers for both of those questions depending on who you ask.

I use so-called "Fancher handles".  These are hard-point handles that don't have any neutral adjustments, but do let you easily change the handle spacing.  You adjust neutral by getting a Derick Moran line clip bender and making a bunch, or by getting a bunch of "Hello Kitty" line clips from, uh, somewhere (Randy Smith, I think -- I have a clip bender).

Brodak's has Fancher-style handles.

There are other hard-point handles that allow for line spacing adjustment, and some cable handles that do, too -- do what floats your boat.  I'd suggest searching on 'handle', and see what pops up.  If you don't know, just get the Ted handle -- it's the perfect accompaniment to a Fancherized Twister, after all.

I fly my overweight Twister on 64' lines.  I'm kinda surprised that Steve didn't say anything, because he likes his lines a lot shorter than I like mine (or maybe he would have just stomped the airplane when he saw how porky it was).  If you build a normal Fancherized Twister, then 60' of .015 lines is probably just about right.

Here's plans for the handles that I fly with.  If you round off the corners and spend some cold winter's nights with some oil-based varnish then you can make a really pretty handle.  If handles were judged, then it may make sense to do so.  Note that the plan says "stainless or other suitable material".  This is mis-worded: it implies that stainless steel is suitable for the job.  It is, once you get it cut out, but man, cutting it up is a pain!

[Steve Helmick]

Thanks for the input, the LA .46 it is. As I said in my first post I am moving up from 1/2a. What type of handles are recommended for a model this size? What line length will this thing fly on?

Jim

Get a TED handle; .015" x 62' should be about right, but maybe 1' too long. I like shiny stainless 7 strand cable & Sullivan line clips (see pictures). Somebody in the Phoenix area probably has a bending fixture and can fix you up with the one oddball clip to find neutral. I don't think anybody I know actually adjusts the handle for neutral, but rather fixes the overhang at minimum finger clearance and changes the one odd (longer) line clip. Well, maybe Tim.   Steve  

[Paul Taylor]

From one guy that when from 1/2a's to a F-Twister to another.

LA 46! Box stock on muffler pressure with a 4oz clunk tank. 11x4 APC. 5/22 fuel set RPM at ~9400-9600.
I would go with a Tom Morris type handle with the slider adjustable cable. This will allow you quick adjustments on your 60ft .015 braided lines. I would also suggest that you put in an adjustable lead out guide and a tip weight box.
Also suggest aluminum landing gear.  Not needed but might keep you from bending wires back after a few hard landings.
No off set on the rudder, but a little off set on the motor. You can get those black motor pads from Brodaks.
Bolt the motor on with lock nuts. No T-bolts. Put plates on back side to keep from crushing the wood.
Keep it light and dont go for show.
IMHO

[Rick Bollinger]

I've got my twister set up with a Tom Morris cable handle  for easy adjustments, fp 40 with tt 11x4.5 prop, uniflow 4 oz plastic tank, 64' .015 lines. Adj leadouts and tip weight. You could probably pick up a nice fp 40 here from someone real reasonable. You cant go wrong with a Twister.

[wwwarbird]

 Great idea bashing a Twister into a Stuka, here's my result...

 http://home.comcast.net/~steve.scott8/images/p9070141.jpg

 There's a little more info on it here in this o-o-old "Twister my way" post...

 http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=2132.msg14736;topicseen#msg14736

 ...in it's final form it ended up with an FP.40 with a black Tornado 10X6 three blade prop. That combination worked very well. It turned out to be a very good plane, it was light, tracked very well, and turned on a dime.

[Dan McEntee]

  All good answers here. The LA.46 is probably the easiest for your local hobby shop to supply and is very user friendly. Tons of good reports on the internet of peoples successes with it, so if you get one, get a back up as soon as possible, even looking for good used ones. If the Brodak .40 is available, I have been flying my modified Twister with one of those. In addition to the typical Fancher modifications, I trimmed the ribs 1/16" all the way around to allow for 1/16" leading edge sheeting and cap strips. I also added wing tips borrowed from a Jetco Shark 45 kit (yes, they fit the cord fine!) and blended the flaps to fit. I added some wood to the stab and elevator to resemble the Shark outline, and added bits of light scrap sheet to get the fuselage outline to resemble a Shark profile. This all added a bit a weight, but the model flies very well. Getting a bit long in the tooth with some hanger rash but the extra additions made it very durable and I fly it a couple of times a year or my son does when he's home. A good substitute for the leading edge sheeting, is add some half ribs to the leading edge to make the airfoil a bit more consistent. The Twister is one heck of an airplane, and gets my vote as one of the top 5 kits airplanes of all time. I have told the story here before of a local guy that used one, as in one single airplane, to go all the way from beginner to expert, and  it was stock as a rock. When it comes to power, the FP.25 might fly it. I have one with an LA.25 on it, and it will do the whole patter quite well on a nice day, but has no extra power in reserve for the breezy days we find ourselves flying in often. When it comes to power, the old saying that "there is no substitution for cubic inches" holds true here, and it's easier to detune an engine a bit than to try to squeeze out what may not be there. The next Twister I do will be kit bashed into looking like a P-40, using a Midwest P-40 fuselage and moments to match the Fancher mods, and adding rounded wing tips that blend into the flaps, and the same leading edge sheeting and cap strip treatment.
   Good luck and have fun!
   HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
  Dan McEntee

[Steve Helmick]

Wayne, wouldn't that be a "TwiStuka"? I like it, and don't mind that you modeled a Stuka. I would be tempted to use one of the alternate forms of the swastika. If you look at the chart I found (below), you'll see that even the Hebrews had used it. Twenty years of (complete) stupidity shouldn't be allowed to ruin the reputation of a pictograph with 10,000 years of history, should it?   Steve

[Mark Scarborough]

Not to shoot down ideas by some well advised people,,
but were I just moving up, I would not add sheeting to the wing on a twister, one of the really nice advantages of the wing as designed is that in all but radical ground interdictions,, ( or crashs), the wing will flex and pop the monokote across a few bays,, but only do minimul if any damage to the wing.. all bets are off for higher angled interactions however 

[Jim Roselle]

Wwwarbird, that is one nice airplane! If mine turns out half as pretty I will be thrilled. Where did you get your decals? Or is that all masked and painted?

Question for Dan and Wwwarbird: When you stretch the back of the fuse do you brace it internally or is a butt joint done with slow cya adequate?

Thank you,
Jim

[Randy Cuberly]

Jim,
If you're in the Phoenix area have you contacted any of the guys in the Central Arizona Control line Club.  There's a lot of very experienced modelers and severa Stunt Experts in the club.  Jeff Hanauer can put you in touch with all of the CL guys there.  Jeff is a combat flier but knows all the stunt guys also.  E-mail jhanauer1@cox.net

I'm in Tucson and you would be very welcome to come down and fly with us anytime.  Several of the stunt fliers from Phoenix, Jim Hoffman, and Leroy Black to name two, often come down and fly with us. 

Randy Cuberly (randy@cuberly.com)

[Tim Wescott]

Jim, if you don't just cut out a new fuselage then make a long scarf joint at the very back.  If the angle is thirty degrees or less to the grain direction you should be OK.  A butt joint with the cuts at right angles to the wood will be as weak as can be; even with epoxy it'd break, and with CA it'd just pop right off.

I just made a new fuselage for mine, then eventually gave the kit one away to someone who was rebuilding a Twister and wanted to keep it stock.

[wwwarbird]

Wwwarbird, that is one nice airplane! If mine turns out half as pretty I will be thrilled. Where did you get your decals? Or is that all masked and painted?

Question for Dan and Wwwarbird: When you stretch the back of the fuse do you brace it internally or is a butt joint done with slow cya adequate?

Thank you,
Jim

 Thanks Jim, I hope it's some inspiration for your project.

 The tail extension on the fuse was only two inches on mine so I simply butt joined the extra length with 30 minute epoxy. In my particular case I'd made a new (I don't recall exactly) 3" or 3-1/2" chord stab. The new stab ended up making an effective brace for the fuse extension joint because the front portion of it reached an inch or so into the stab slot in the original portion of the fuse. Take time to achieve good fits and then by the time the stab is glued in and a good fillet added all around it's all plenty strong enough. My TwisterStuka has hundreds of flights on it, many of them using a tail wheel stooge connection, without any issues.

 The graphics on mine were a combination of German insignias from Major Decal and some custom made stuff done to my specs by a friend who has his own vinyl graphics business.

[wwwarbird]

Jim,
If you're in the Phoenix area have you contacted any of the guys in the Central Arizona Control line Club.  There's a lot of very experienced modelers and severa Stunt Experts in the club.  Jeff Hanauer can put you in touch with all of the CL guys there.  Jeff is a combat flier but knows all the stunt guys also.  E-mail jhanauer1@cox.net

I'm in Tucson and you would be very welcome to come down and fly with us anytime.  Several of the stunt fliers from Phoenix, Jim Hoffman, and Leroy Black to name two, often come down and fly with us. 

Randy Cuberly (randy@cuberly.com)

 Jim,

 If you're looking for assistance in getting up to speed you would do yourself well by hooking up with these guys.

[Dan McEntee]

Wwwarbird, that is one nice airplane! If mine turns out half as pretty I will be thrilled. Where did you get your decals? Or is that all masked and painted?

Question for Dan and Wwwarbird: When you stretch the back of the fuse do you brace it internally or is a butt joint done with slow cya adequate?

Thank you,
Jim

   Hi Jim;
    I think I just butt glued the extension on like Wayne did, and that is what Ted Fancher described in his original article. Pay attention to the joint for a good fit. A scarf joint at a slight angle would be nice also. I doped and silk spanned the fuselage. It's been a lot of years since it was built and no sign of cracking so far. A new fuse is also a way to go as mentioned. I was determined to use all the wood in the kit on my Twister/Shark. Again, it is a darn fine airplane stock out of the boxand properly trimmed. Proper trimming is the key to ANY airplane. All the hot-zoot modifications in the world won't help a badly trimmed airplane. The stock airplane is plenty good, and the modifications take it a step further, if your skill and experience level are at a point where you can recognize it. When just getting started, keeping things simple and straight goes a long way, and build more than one. Each subsequent airplane should and will be better than the previous airplane, and makes the trimming process quicker and easier. Getting better at stunt is a lot about confidence, and picking a design and sticking with it gets you that confidence. You can make them look like anything you want for a little variety. One of the neatest kit bashes I ever saw was a Twister Bill Calkin's  had years ago at the SIG contest. Bill is an ex-Navy man, and he made his look like a submarine! Had a conning tower with a periscope instead of a canopy, a deck gun behind that, and instead of a tail wheel, it had a large sub-rudder to help with the effect. REALLY did look cool, but don't know if I ever took a picture of it. Let your imagination take hold, stick to the known nose and tail monents, and have fun!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Dennis Moritz]

I flew this Twister for years. Powered by an FP40. Half ribs. Worked well. I moved the stab out to the back end of the fues, which added an inch or two to the tail moment. 42 ounces, if I remember correctly. LA46s usually turn a big prop, 12.25x3.75apc is my club's preference. This might create issues with this small plane. Could be prone to hinging. Mike Palko flew himself into expert with a stock Twister powered by a stock Fox 35. I used to think the West Coast cabal was misguided when they recommended an FP25 or LA25 to power one of these. Scratch building a Twister (if you do this at some point get the Fancherized Twister plans, no harder to build than a stock Twister) with good wood should come in under 40 ounces. An LA25 or FP25 might work very well at that weight. Using the smaller engine takes an ounce or two from the nose. A significant weight reduction by itself. Also solves an issue of runaway. Since the 25s sweet speed is closer to max power.

[Jim Roselle]

Jim,
If you're in the Phoenix area have you contacted any of the guys in the Central Arizona Control line Club.  There's a lot of very experienced modelers and severa Stunt Experts in the club.  Jeff Hanauer can put you in touch with all of the CL guys there.  Jeff is a combat flier but knows all the stunt guys also.  E-mail jhanauer1@cox.net

I'm in Tucson and you would be very welcome to come down and fly with us anytime.  Several of the stunt fliers from Phoenix, Jim Hoffman, and Leroy Black to name two, often come down and fly with us. 

Randy Cuberly (randy@cuberly.com)

I actually went to the club meeting in November and am looking forward to the January meeting. I figure joining the ama and caclc is the polite and smart thing to do since I do most of my flying at the 32nd street and rosier field during the week. 

Jim

[Jim Thomerson]

I have had two stock Twisters with Fox stunt 35s which flew to suit me.

[john e. holliday]

I too will say yes to the LA .46 as it will do the job right out of the box if you don't push it.   Also the guys in the Phoenix and Tuscon areas are the some of the best.   Hope to make it back out there this year as I missed the big anniversary year.  As a plus for the .46 is when you do your first built up plane you will have an engine for it.   Of course by the time you learn the pattern you may have another one or two.

[Brett Buck]

I have had two stock Twisters with Fox stunt 35s which flew to suit me.

   I think that since he is up there in the high desert, he probably wants more than a Fox. I was amazed how much power gets sucked out of the airplane at Tucson, even when it's reasonable (70's-80's). I'll be up to 20% nitro at the Regionals.

     Brett

[Randy Cuberly]

   I think that since he is up there in the high desert, he probably wants more than a Fox. I was amazed how much power gets sucked out of the airplane at Tucson, even when it's reasonable (70's-80's). I'll be up to 20% nitro at the Regionals.

     Brett

Hi Brett,
Good news to hear you're coming to the Regionals.  We've had a lot of unusual cool weather.
Daytime temps in the 60's.
Yeah Tucson is "Nitroville".  I run 18 to 20 % in my PA65's.

Jim,
Here in Arizona, a LA46 is just about perfect for a Twister size airplane.  Certainly a lot of them have been flown on Fox35's and all kinds of 40's...but they work much better here with the slight edge in power...as does everything.
Here at altitude and 15% Nitro LA46's seem to work best on the APC 11.5 X 4.  I've tried the 12.25 X 3.75 and it works OK but lacks the authority on most planes of the 11.5 X 4.
It might require making the landing gear just a little longer but is definitely worth the effort.

Randy Cuberly