Points Left On the Table

[PatRobinson]

                                             Points Left On the Table


It recently dawned on me that I had been judging stunt for over 30 years but it doesn’t seem that long.  I guess time flies when you are watching airplanes. Anyway, as spring is now transitioning to summer and contest season is heating up across the country I thought it might be useful to discuss where flyers are leaving points on the table instead of on their score sheets.

The other forum had a discussion about k-factor and maneuver degree of difficulty. I have no interest in  discussing that hotly debated topic, but  I think if you are talking about degree of difficulty of a maneuver then I think it should be assigned to the maneuver that is the most consistently “messed-up” by flyers in all skill levels.  That maneuver is the overhead eight.  In the thousands of flights I have judged over the years  I could count the number of times I have seen it done reasonably well on one hand  and  approaching excellent maybe twice.  Errors seen are:  1. never getting vertical or only vertical at the start. 2. Above  or below 45 degrees at sides. 3. Lazy-8 intersection shapes.   4. Walking the maneuver  around or leaning the maneuver on it’s side away from vertical.  Square-Eights may have more elements making them up but from my perspective it is nowhere near as consistently messed up by as many flyers as the overhead eight. I think that the overhead is the maneuver that most requires coaching in order for a flyer  to show improvement.
I think judges see a halfway decent overhead-eight so rarely that a judge needs to show a lot of discipline to avoid “ballooning” the score higher than the maneuver may warrant because a “good” overhead is such a surprise.  I have seen higher skill level pilots who are putting up a flight that is consistently in the mid-30 scores and then put up a 23-24 on the overhead and lose to another flyer whose overhead was “less bad” than the first flyer.  This flyers overhead-eight wasn’t really “good” it was just “less bad” than his competitor.  So, my advice is to get coaching so your overhead-eight can improve enough to outscore your competition instead of leaving points on the table.

There are lots of point left on the table in the “so-called” easy maneuvers. Some years ago I had  some beginners ask me what they could do to improve their score. They were concerned about the quality of their airplanes because they wouldn’t do squares very well. I decided to go over their score sheets with them and asked them about their scores on the so-called “easy maneuvers”.   I advised them focus most of their attention on improving their flying in “the easy maneuvers” with the planes they already had  which were all already capable of doing those maneuvers.  At the next contest these guys had improved greatly and their higher scores reflected it.  Let’s look at the so-called “easy maneuvers” where points are left on the table.

The Takeoff:  I don’t know if guys are thinking ahead to the wingover  or just not focused yet but I have
 seen a significant number of points left on the table in takeoff.  A truly “great takeoff” is truly rare and is breathtaking to see so it really isn‘t all that “easy“.  The flyers I have seen execute these “great- takeoffs” had practiced to consistently  fly excellent takeoffs and then upped their game.
The takeoff consists of two parts 1. Roll-out  an 2. Climb-out  but far too often these elements  are either not done at all or they are poorly done.  There are too many guys scoring 24-26 points on takeoff and most of those points were scored during the 3rd  part of the maneuver which is acceptable level flight  instead of the first two elements which are roll-out and climb-out.  Jumping off the ground to six feet altitude or flying a stair-step  or up and down climb-out is going to score poorly.   One of the best  and most consistent
“take-off artists” I’ve ever seen was Les McDonald.  Let me describe what one of his takeoffs looked like.
His roll-out was about a 1/8th of a lap long and near the end his Stilleto had rotated up onto it’s main gear.
What happened next was so gradual that it looked as if the plane just gently lifted the weight off the wheels and a tiny amount of daylight appears between the wheel and the pavement, instead of any kind of leaping or jumping up and it began a smooth and gradual climb-out that took a full lap to reach level flight altitude. It looked like it rode up a perfect smooth and gradual invisible ramp. This was a 39-40 point maneuver and it deserved every point.  I have seen other top guys duplicate this quality of takeoff and it is always exciting to watch.





The beginners I talked about earlier picked up 6-10 points in their takeoffs alone that they had been leaving on the table in spite of their lower performing airplanes. I have noticed that some guys with tuned pipe engines seemed to have a harder time controlling roll-out and climb-out and their planes frequently leap into the air.  I am not sure what the cause is but is something I have noticed occurring and it especially seems to occur more in the lower skill classes. It may be related to airplane size because bigger expert size  planes seem have some of the same tendencies to leap up when on pipe but the bigger planes seem to be more stable in climb-out. I am not criticizing pipe engines but I am just noting on what I have seen occur.  If a flyer is aware that it may occur he can adjust to improve the roll out and climb out and still enjoy all the rest of his pipe setup advantages and avoid leaving points on the table.

The Landing:  The key to landing is to reverse the climb-out and fly a smooth and gradual descent without  bobbles, stair-steps zooming up and down and etc.  The good news is more people try to seem to focus on the descent than they do the climb-out but I think there are still points being left on the table.  If you are a beginner seek help from more a experienced flyer in trimming your plane to improve stability in the glide.
Once your plane is stable when the power is off it is then up to you to discover what you need to do to improve your landing quality and then practice doing it that way so you don’t throw away attainable points.
One other plus at contests is that if you nail a landing you will quite often receive applause  from spectators
and if you are a beginner or intermediate flyer applause can only help your confidence.

The Round Loops:  The 3 most important elements that I look for in the rounds are:

1. Placement:  This is about where you start each loops climb.  The problems of not tracking the 2nd and 3rd loops on the 1st loop  and walking maneuvers often start with inconsistent placement. Pick a background reference point at level height that will be the start point of the loop and if you project an imaginary line upward from that point it will divide your round loop into 2 equal halves.  Far too often a flyer will do his 1st loop and then fly level for15-25 ft before beginning the 2nd loop and the 3rd loop may be somewhere different. It seems that a lot of flyers I have talked to are unaware that they are doing it. A lot of flyers  pick reference points for squares and intersections but not for the start point of their loops so my suggestion  is
use a reference point  to improve your placement and stop leaving points on the table. It is important to know that inconsistent & bad motor runs and badly trimmed airplanes can cause significant problems with  bad “tracking” and with “walking” during round maneuvers. Seek out a more experienced flyer to help you solve your particular problem.

2. Size : There are a lot of pilots that fly round loops that are way too BIG.  A loop in the rule book is 45 degrees high which then has to mean that it is 45 degrees wide no matter what the line length is.  A lot loops I have seen are 65-70+ degrees wide no matter what the line length happens to be.  I highly recommend that you set up  poles outside the circle that are 45 degrees wide and try to fly your loops within the poles.  This will give you an understanding and an appreciation for how hard this is to do and how well you are doing. I am not recommending that you slavishly do all your practice with poles but just to become aware of how big you are flying so you don’t give away points needlessly.  If you fly a 50 degree wide loop a judge probably isn’t going to nail you but if you are flying 65-70 degree loops then a good judge has no choice but to down grade your score. A judge should not downgrade your flight because you are on “max” length lines and everyone else  is on 60’ lines and so you fly a bigger diameter than they do. This is about angle and not diameter.  I have found that some guys have a hard time “seeing” the “degree-size-error” while we were practice judging and they may therefore avoid using size as a judging factor..  I had the advantage of practice judging a lot of guys who were practicing flying between the poles so I got a clearer understanding of what  angular size should look like from the judges position. If you have a heavy airplane that has to fly fast then you may have no choice but to fly bigger degree-size loops and accept your loss of points for loop size. In this case, concentrate more on getting placement and shape correct.




3. Shape:  The variety of non-round shapes I have seen over the years is staggering. Common wrong shapes are “Vertical Footballs” with points at the top and bottom, Loops with flat spots in several places or perhaps
Just a “D” shape with a vertical on one side. Then there are various ovoid shapes that can be pointed in various directions.
Then there are the odd shapes that occur because you have flown loops of  2 different sizes and you are trying to transition between them.  This list can go on and on.
I have judged some excellent pilots over a period of years and it seems that for many of them improving the shape of their round maneuvers was the last element they acquired to really step up their pattern score.
I saw these guys put up great “square-stuff” and then flawed “round-stuff” that caused them to leave points on the table.  Now I see, that their rounds are as consistent as their squares.  Look guys, SHAPE is fundamental to doing well in “rounds” and even the most unpracticed judge will clearly see if you get the shape wrong.
Sometimes, airplane trim problems can create problems with shape and again seek help of a more experienced flyer for a solution. If you don’t have a local “expert” then you always have this forum.
However, I believe that SHAPE of  his “rounds” is the element that a flyer will need  coaching the most in order to improve his scores during round loops.  A flyer must be able to see what a loop looks like to him as he is flying that, at the same time, also actually looks round to the judge at his position outside the circle and you just can’t easily do that own your own.  You need a coach.

The Wingover:   If your plane has enough power and lift and also enough turning capability it should be capable of doing a decent wingover if it is reasonably trimmed out.   It is then up to you .  Common mistakes are: 1.  over-turning  or under-turning the first turn and ending up with a dog-leg to get back to a vertical climb-out position instead of a square turn and a clean vertical climb-out. 2. Missing the vertical overhead  position . ( leaning to one side or the other away from vertical) 3. Not flying a straight descent down from vertical 4.  Not flying a clean and flat inverted square pullout at normal level altitude.
5. (The most common error ) missing the turn point for the second climb-out so you don‘t fly the same track
as the first climb-out. This can often lead to flying across on a wrong track and getting the final pullout  in the wrong place. The best you can do is fly a dog leg path to get back on track to vertical so you at least have a shot on getting the descent section acceptable.  The second climb-out and descent and pull out is basically a mirror image of the first pass so the same goals and the same problems can apply.

Guys, I guess what I am saying is get someone to help you figure out where you are leaving points on the table and not on your score sheet so you can figure out how to change your results.

Most folks advise developing pilots to practice only full patterns and I agree. However, if you are trying to be intensely coached into improving a maneuver or part of a maneuver then I have found personally and with the guys I was helping that you need to repeatedly work on the thing you are trying to improve till you can repeat doing it correctly but you should plug your improved maneuver into a whole pattern at the end of your session. For example: I would short-fill my tank so I could practice more take offs and landings  with wingovers in between. I would short-fill it again fire it up again , over and over till my take offs and landings showed some improvement.  It was too easy for me to lose continuity about what I was doing  if I only tried to fix a problem once during a flight as a part of a pattern.  I look at it like this if I am doing things wrong in my pattern and I only fly full patterns then I will get real good at doing it wrong.  I am sure that others are quite successful at doing things a different way and I can only say good for them  because they are truly capable souls.

The fact is this forum has some very capable people on it and I am sure some of them have a clear understanding where folks are leaving points on the table and how to fix it.  As for me this post has run way longer than I intended so I am going to wrap it up and wish everyone good luck and good flying this year.

                                                                                                                                   Till next time,
                                                                                                                                            Pat Robinson








   



 

[Bill Little]

Hi Pat,

Excellent post.  I would agree that the points you make are pretty consistent with what I have seen over the years. 

One manuever you didn't mention that is probaly flown wrong at least as much as the overheads is the cloverleaf.  There are just so many parts of it to mess up.  It's a fairly easy maneuver to get through, it's all round, but the "cross" in the middle usually doesn't exist for a whole lot of flyers, and the size/shape of the four "rounds" are seldom the same except for the top level guys.

If someone has flown for a while, they can usually tell you where they messed up, but correcting the "mess ups" is difficult, at best, doing it alone.

Bill <><

[PatRobinson]

Hi Bill,
I agree that the cloverleaf is butchered regularly but I still have to give the nod to the overhead for sheer number of mess-ups. Bill,you are 100% correct that leaving out the "flats" are a major mistake which leads to all the loops intertwining into what I have come to call a "pretzel" because that is what it looks like. One of the best jobs I have ever seen on coaching the cloverleaf was a coach standing behind a flyer and talking, it went like this:
1. "Okay get to start altitude- good!
2. "get ready to loop - Loop Now!
3. "come out flat & fly-fly-fly-fly- outside!
4. come out flat & climb- climb-climb-climb- outside!
5. come out flat & fly-fly-fly-fly - loop Now!
6. come out flat & climb- climb - climb-climb up & out - good!

When a flyer is working on the clover it feels that a correct size "flat" is just too long and can't possibly be right so using the term fly-fly-fly-fly overcomes
those feelings so the flyer can learn what the maneuver is supposed to look like and begin to develop the appropriate timing to fly it.

Bill you are also correct that inconsistent loop sizes are also a common mistake but I have found in working with guys that messing up flying the "flats" will also mess up loop size. If the flat is too long the loop is usually too big and if the "flat" is short then the loop is too small.  It is about nailing the right start point out of the flat to get a consistent size loop. I use the term "Flying the Flats" because it sticks in guys minds to remind them that there has to be flats in the clover.  Inconsistent, loop size almost always
leads to missing an intersection and flying a "flat" through another loop on the too big loops and flying a curve line and not a "flat" back to the intersection and usually end up missing the intersection on small loops.
 
There is another "villian" that I have seen that can produce unequal size loops in a clover.  If you have an airplane that turns better one way than the other then you are also going to struggle with producing a consistent loop size in the clover. I would suggest you fix it, get an ARF or build another plane because if you practice clovers with the bad plane you will be holding yourself back from improving the quality of your clover.


Bill, the only reason I didn't mention the cloverleaf is my original post was it already way too long and I knew capable guys like you would bring it up.

                                                                    Till next time,

                                                                  Pat Robinson

[Jim Thomerson]

The most common mistake made by judges  is to judge the wrong two laps of inverted flight.  So fly all six laps as if they were being judged and collect your points regardless.   

[john e. holliday]

Nothing like watching competitors fly consistently over 45 degrees on maneuvers, even one that the 45 was at 80 degrees thru the whole pattern.  As stated the overhead is one of the hardest to do correctly.   I used to tell people that take-off, level flight and landling were the hardest parts of the pattern.  But, it really is discouraging to have your coach tell you that you put up one of your best flights and the score table shows you in last, especially when we are sitting and watching the other flights.  Also after when you ask the judges after all is over what is wrong, they tell you the engine was not running right or your flight was not smooth.  Best one was when a judge told me he did not like the looks of my plane as it was flying.  But, I am happy to say the individual that I have tried to coach,  John Bender, scored his best flight and won Adv at Topeka.  His first try in Adv.  He is also the one I talked into skipping Beg and going straight into Int.  But, to get down to it I still have fun and if I don't Brenda Schutte is there to give me an attitude adjustment.  DOC Holliday

[steve pagano]

Talking about doing the maneuvers over 45 degrees i have problems coming close to 45. Is there anything i can do or try to get a maneuver at 45? my loops start at 4 feet and hit a high of about 75 degrees i just don't know were 45 is!

[PatRobinson]

Hi Steve,
It sounds as if your problem is with your perception of what 45 degrees looks like. I have 2 suggestions for you:
 
First, Have a flying buddy stand 90 degrees from where you are going your loops holding up a large clear plastic right triangle with a 45 degree side with the right angle toward the outside of the circle. Then start lapping at what you think is 45 degrees.  Have your buddy use pre-arranged signals for up-down- and correct and to help you adjust your altitude against the triangle till you get a correct signal.Take note of where that is.
Then do 1 loop at a time and wait for a signal for how close the top actually is to 45 degrees and when you get the correct signal take note of where that is. You will probably need to repeat this over several flying sessions in order to get comfortable. It would also probably be a good idea to go ahead and fly your normal 3 loops to check if your tops are consistent and even from loop to loop. This should give you at least the beginning of a perspective on
what 45 degrees should look like to you at the handle.

The 2nd suggestion I have for you is what I mentioned earlier set up poles that are 45 degrees apart. I had a friend who still remembered his trigonometry unlike me & worked out the distance to separate the poles.
I on the other hand just used a protractor and a laser pointer. 
This exercise will open your eyes more than anything else just how small a 45 degree wide maneuver actually is, and how hard it is to fly, so don't get frustrated. 
The main objective for you at this point is to gain some perspective about the angular size of a loop.  Your line length is about resolving a speed that your plane works well at and a lap speed that you can live with comfortably and it has no bearing on the "angular-size" of the loop.
Steve, If you can develop this perspective it will probably put you ahead of a lot of your competitors if you fly contests or you will just be a more capable sport flyer if you don't fly contests. Steve, mastering 45 degress is a fundamental building block that is required in order for you to correctly master the rest of the pattern.

Steve, I wish you all the best as you endeavor to improve your flying.

                                                                Till next time,
                                                          Pat Robinson

[steve pagano]

Hi Pat,

     Thanks for the advice, Cant wait to get to my flying field and start loopin
 
                                           -Steve

[Steve Helmick]

Great post, Pat! I can't remember how many years I've been judging (maybe 7 or 8 ), but I've had the same sort of experiences.  You did seem to forget about the 2 laps after the takeoff, however! I wouldn't say that I give half the points for the first lap and half to the next two laps, but like the landing, it's a package, and it all counts. The fast accelleration of a low pitched prop (piped or not) setup probably catches a lot of folks unaware.

Like you, the OH8 is often butchered, and it's one of my favorites to actually do. The Clover is another of my favorites to do. Not saying that mine are good, you understand. But it does disappoint me to see some that are not pleasent to look at. I wonder if I judge them more harshly, because of that. You're absolutely right about getting the most points you can from the 'easy' stuff. Concentration is key. Also, use those two level ("Judges Laps") laps to think about the next trick...like footwork for the RWO, OH8, V8, etc. I think proper footwork is key to many of the tricks, if not all, and the OH8 is one of them.

I often see OH8's with a round inside with a teardrop outside (bad intersection). I saw a new error this past week that was a surprise. This flier consistently went past the tangent point in the inside before changing directions, then a teardrop on the outside. The first part created a 'bump' where the direction reversed. I hope somebody in central California will recognize whose OH8's I'm yakking about, and give him some coaching. Seemed like a nice young-ish flier, too.  Steve

[Trostle]

Talking about doing the maneuvers over 45 degrees i have problems coming close to 45. Is there anything i can do or try to get a maneuver at 45? my loops start at 4 feet and hit a high of about 75 degrees i just don't know were 45 is!

There are several ways to see what a 45-degree loop should look like.

What I emphasize in clinics that I participate in is to have the flier or the judge visualize the two 45-degree segments of the circle from dead down wind.  In other words, visualize a quarter of the circle.  The horizontal eights are to be flown within that 90 degree boundary.  (That is the 90-degree segment on the ground.  Some will quibble about  that the extremities of those eights are beyond the 90 degree segment of the circle at the 22.5 degree elevation, but that is not the point.  The eights are to be flown within that 90 degree segment laid out on the ground.  Watch (or judge) other fliers.  Seldom are their eights are even close to being confined to this 90-degree space.  But that does not mean that yours should not be.  (In fact, in wind, even good fliers start to push 120-degrees or even 150-degrees.  Just watch sometime - you will be surprised.)

The other measure to determine what the size of 45-degree loops should look like is the vertical eights.  If you start at 5 feet and the top of your top loop is directly overhead, and the loops look to be the same size, then you have just performed two loops that are 45-degrees in diameter.  This is easier to see as a pilot since the loops are the same distance from the pilot.  There is some distortion and paralax of what proper loops appear to be from a judges perspective.

In short, 45-degree loops are generally a lot smaller than most people fly and what most people (including judges) even accept as being properly flown.

[PatRobinson]

AH-HA!  See I said earlier very CAPABLE guys would expand this discussion beyond the limits of my somewhat overlong post and here they are adding their perspective.
 
Steve, Thanks for your input. I appreciate your emphasizing the 2 level laps after takeoff.  My focus was mostly on the far too absent roll-out and climb-out  & all I did say about level flight is that most of the points actually scored on the takeoff/level flight maueuver are more for the quality of their level laps and not for their flawed takeoff.

About, the issue of pipe-engine airplanes leaping off the ground instead of having a roll-out and climb-out. I had a discussion about this, today, with Randy Smith at the Huntersville contest.  Randy said that part of the issue is
that a pipe setup delivers enough power to hand launch a full size stunter vertically into a wingover so the plane will go where you point it right now!
Randy, said that most of time when a plane leaps off the ground he notices that the flyer is standing upright with their arm straight out which results in some up deflection to the elevator.  He advised if your plane is leaping off the ground you should lower your arm which will take off some up deflection.
He said if the plane still jumps up then lower your arm some more. Your Fox 35 powered plane won't leap off the ground in the same way because it  actually needs some roll-out and climb-out in order to gather the lift and momentum required to get airborn with the lower  available power.
Randy's very cogent point is to notice what elevator deflection you are holding when you release your airplane. "Good-Stuff" Randy!!

Steve, One of the main reasons I wrote this post was to provide guys some focus on points that are attainable. I personally don't call maueuvers "easy"
because  flying a "great takeoff" or a "great wingover" or even a truly precise
set of "great loops" is not easy and is somewhat rare except at the highest levels of the sport.
However, flying "acceptable", "good" or "very good" maneuvers are attainable
but it requires attention, focus,persistent trying and coaching so that guys don't leave points on the table.

One of the things I remember doing to improve footwork was to go in a room an close the door and then "pretend fly" the maueuver you are trying
to improve. ( I suppose I should use a term like "visualize your objective"  to sound more high-brow - but it is what it is and the reason you close the door is you look silly while your doing it ) - Anyway, it works because you only have to deal with the foot work and not with keeping the plane in the air
when you trip on your own feet when your are trying to do it a different way.
Oh my! I do believe I am telling on myself - Anyway, give it a try cause it can't hurt and might help but keep the door closed.

Steve, the error in the overhead you describes sounds like something some guys who helped teach me to judge nicknamed the "dipsy-doodle" I see it most in the transistion from the outside where the plane goes past vertical into the inside loop space on its approach toward vertical and then starts forming the inside loop curve back toward vertical. The net result is that the outside loop is left incomplete. This error quite often causes other errors the 2nd time through like the overhead leaning over, or flying different size loops and of course errors in hitting the 45 degree sides. I have no clue where this silly name came from but it's easy to remember.

Keith, I also want to  thank you for your insightful contribution. I think it is clever to use the vertical to help a flyer focus on the location of 45 degrees.

I fully agree with your focus on the 90 degree width of eights and for how small a 45 degree loop really is and how hard it is to do.  As I said in my post I had the advantage to practice judge a lot of guys in my club who were attempting to fly between posts set 45 degrees apart. I was able develop a perspective of what the correct angle should look like from the judges location. This has been invaluable to me in judging over the years and I feel lucky to have had that experience. Some guys I have practice judged with have told me they had a hard time seeing the correct "angular size" of a maneuver rather than just the diameter a loop,for example, so these judges do the best they are able to do.

I feel I would be remiss, if I didn't say that practicing with poles is a tool to help a flyer get an understanding of how small a 45 degree or 90 degree maneuver really is to fly. Once you get that clarity and understanding about how big you are supposed to fly I don't advise that you slavishly continue to use the poles because when a guy is focused on flying within the poles it can lead to losing focus on shape, corners or intersections. Just a friendly word of advice from somebody who's been there and done that.

Keith, there is one far too common a mistake I see take  the round loops for example and I wonder what your advice would be for everyone.
When I am judging a loop I mark with a background feature where the loop climb begins and I then project an imaginary line vertically. The expectation is the loop will be 22 1/2 degrees wide each side of that line.  The problem I see over and over is the plane will reach this start point and then continue level for 5 ft -10 ft or more before they begin the next climb of the next loop. Sometimes the third loop tracks over the 2nd loop and sometimes not.
I  haven't seen a lot of attention paid to this particular problem area but the problem is so common that I am sure it has been addresed at some point and I am just not aware it has occured. Keith I look forward to you imput.

Good stuff!! Guys, thanks for your insight!
                                                                    Till next time,
                                                                 Pat Robinson   

[Steve Helmick]

Talking about doing the maneuvers over 45 degrees i have problems coming close to 45. Is there anything i can do or try to get a maneuver at 45? my loops start at 4 feet and hit a high of about 75 degrees i just don't know were 45 is!

Steve...Since 90 degrees is straight overhead, and 45 degrees is half of 90 degrees, then half way to the top is where the tops of your loops should be. If you can put the bottoms at 4', the 45 degrees should be very possible. I'd try practising simply spotting the 45 degree point sometime during your daily routine. Maybe carry a 45 x 90 drafting triangle, make one out of cardboard, or carry a suitable protractor (not all would be useful). It should help.

If this doesn't help, I'd suggest getting some Expert class fliers to fly your plane and see if they think the controls are perhaps too slow. This is a point where a lot of folks have different preferences, but if you got multiple opinions, you should get some useful info, and see a trend.  Steve

[Dennis Adamisin]

Got one other way to help "see" the 45 deg.: fly to the bill.

The old master Bob Gieseke told me this one a LOOOOONG time ago.  His suggestion was to wear a baseball hat, set your body for a manuver, LOCK your head in place and fly the manuver so the tops just hit the bill of the cap.  If you watched Bob - especially his body positions - he practiced as he preached!

To be frank about it, I was never comfortable flying with a hat, and could never develop the discipline to "lock down" the way Bob did - but I do not move my head up & down except during verticle manuvers - there are limits to how far UP you can see without turning your head.

As a training aid you might try that for a flight or two just to get a "feel" and look of where 45 degrees is.

[john e. holliday]

As usual I am thoroughly confused about where 45 is really at.  With pilots ranging from 4 foot 8 inches to 6 foot 8 inches where do you measure 90 degrees from.   I guess a pilot has to learn to hold his hand at 4 foot to get 4 foot level laps.  Then the 90 degrees should be from the point of the hand not the body.  So the O H 8 is flown straight overhead with the length of the flyers arm you will not get to 45 degrees on each end of the O H 8.  Seems to me when the original wording of the early pattern level flight was to be at shoulder height which would make it easier to to hit all the different degrees required.  So I will keep flying for fun as it is too much trouble trying to impress judges.  DOC Holliday

[PatRobinson]

Hi "Doc",
I will give a try at simplifying things for you.  The rules only specify 2 elements to help us determine the correct height of maneuvers.
1. Level flight must be at 4-6 feet. This is the same for everybody irregardless of their height.  Your lines may slope up to 4-6 feet or down to 4-6 ft and it doesn't matter.

2. The top of the maneuver must be 45 degrees above level flight altitude
of 4-6 ft.  So, if you were stand to the side of a circle and aligned the bottom of a clear plastic drafting triangle so the bottom aligns with a level 5 ft height and the point is to the center of the circle you will then see the location of the correct 45 degree maneuver height.

Level flight is actually not just a line but it's a 2 ft band of 4-6 ft and therefore 45 degree elevation must also be a 2 ft band in it's width to stay in relation to the level of flight altitude. If you fly level flight in the center of the band at 5 ft. then you would fly through the center of the 45 degree band as well.

Doc, the goal is to focus on the altitude difference between level and 45 degrees and not the angle the lines trace from the pilot to the plane.
This is all the rulebook gives us to focus on.  "Doc" does this clarify things
for you any or help you?

                                                                         Best wishes,
                                                                     Pat Robinson

[Bill Little]

Hi Pat,

How did it go at Waymer?  I could not come up after all.............

Hopefully, a new circle is going to be installed at a new R/C field about 20 miles from here, between Aaron, and me.  This will give both of us a chance to fly a great bit more.  Plus a change of venue in my job will free up more time.  Aaron is also going to go into the education field next year it looks like.  This will give us the same schedule. 

Sorry to hi jack the thread, but if you don't have/can't find a place to fly, it is a moot point about points anyway! LOL!!

Bill <><

[Howard Rush]

Thanks, guys.  There's a bunch of good advice here. 

[john e. holliday]

Hi "Doc",
I will give a try at simplifying things for you.  The rules only specify 2 elements to help us determine the correct height of maneuvers.
1. Level flight must be at 4-6 feet. This is the same for everybody irregardless of their height.  Your lines may slope up to 4-6 feet or down to 4-6 ft and it doesn't matter.

2. The top of the maneuver must be 45 degrees above level flight altitude
of 4-6 ft.  So, if you were stand to the side of a circle and aligned the bottom of a clear plastic drafting triangle so the bottom aligns with a level 5 ft height and the point is to the center of the circle you will then see the location of the correct 45 degree maneuver height.

Level flight is actually not just a line but it's a 2 ft band of 4-6 ft and therefore 45 degree elevation must also be a 2 ft band in it's width to stay in relation to the level of flight altitude. If you fly level flight in the center of the band at 5 ft. then you would fly through the center of the 45 degree band as well.

Doc, the goal is to focus on the altitude difference between level and 45 degrees and not the angle the lines trace from the pilot to the plane.
This is all the rulebook gives us to focus on.  "Doc" does this clarify things
for you any or help you?

                                                                         Best wishes,
                                                                     Pat Robinson

Thanks alot, now if we can get this thru to the judges.  DOC Holliday

[PatRobinson]

Hi Guys,
I'm sorry that my replys have been kinda hit and miss, I have been using up
my limited energy at the Huntersville contest this past weekend.

Taking them in order, To: Ty Marcucci- Good for you on your takeoff! I am sorry your engine quit but if you can nail the takeoff once you can do it again on future flights. If you are capable of smoothly transistioning from a crouch
to standing while doing a smooth climb-out good for you. A lot of guys can't physically do that. The best I have been able to do is bend a little at the waist and lower my arm. Randy Smith reccomends against crouching and reccomends standing upright and lowering the arm.  I have even seen some guys start out on one knee. The key is to find out what you can do in a consistent and repeatable way that gets the job done for you.

To Steve Helmick, Steve it obvious that "great minds" think alike because you and Keith Trostle both came up with the idea to use the verticals to help a flyer figure where 45 degrees actually. Good Stuff!
I also agree that getting an experienced flyer to sort out a planes trim or controls  so it is actually capable of flying closer to 45 degrees is a good idea.

To Dennis Adamisin, Dennis that is an interesting idea about the ball cap to mark 45 degrees but I am like you in that I wouldn,t be able to lock-in my position very well. When I was learning to judge I tried to use a finger or pen to mark the intersections but what I found out is when something is that close , you only have to slip your finger a fraction of an inch and it looks like someone flew an error of many feet. NOT GOOD! I then picked a marker in the background and AH-HA , I now had a more consistent reference.
So, If I tried to use something as close a my hat brim and I didn't lock-in I probably wouldn't do too good. Mr Gieseke has "been there, done that, and got the trophies" which proves it works for him. This proves once again that everyone is different and needs to find what works for them.

To Howard Rush, Hi Howard thanks for weighing in. I think all these capable
guys have done an excellent job and they even did some coaching along the way. Good for them!

I was hoping that this thread would be a direct and focused discussion about how flyers could improve their flights and increase their scores.
This ,"where the rubber hits the road", sort of discussions seem to be tailor made for stunt forums. That was my hope, anyway.

                                                           Till next time,
                                                          Pat Robinson

[Jim Pollock]

To find 45 degrees elevation you could do what I did.  I made a cardboard 45 degree triangle and just
stood in the center of the circle before practice flights noting where it was pointing from eye level while kneeling a little to get eye level at 5'.  Sometimes there is a cloud that will linger in that area of the sky for a while.  You can use it as a general reference.  Don't get specific with it because clouds have been known to move.  Sometimes rather quickly....

Jim Pollock   

[Steve Helmick]

Two 'judging tips' I might mention, since we're kinda going thataway...

In the OH8, assuming Howard started his entry right in front of me...which he doesn't very often...I watch for the lines to be vertical/square. This is a very useful visual cue...if they were vertical, then aren't, then are, then aren't, the loops aren't tangent or round. The 45deg. points on each side are not as easy to judge, but the altitude should be the same, and that's a bit easier. 

On the V8, I was told that it's not possible to tell if the top loop is exactly overhead, but I found that's not true. If the wing is not vertical, the top of the top loop is not at 90 deg., and that's surprisingly easy to see! Usually, the error is that one or both loops are too large. If the insides are at 45 deg. and the wing is vertical at the top, then the loops are roughly right. Could still be ovals, bumpy, have flats on the bottoms, etc.      Steve

[PatRobinson]

To: Steve Helmick
Steve, I agree completely on checking for vertical in the overhead. I have found that if a flyer has perfected a decent wingover that actually tracks vertical over the top then he will usually get vertical at the start of the eight but too often that is the only time the plane hits vertical.

ATTENTION !!!  Overhead Eight !!! CHEATING HINT !!! :

I normally don't go around offering advice on how to cheat the pattern but the overhead is so consistently messed up by so many people in so many ways that messed-up overheads are more often the norm than good overheads.  So I will pass along a trick I have seen some clever guys do.
These guys fly "D" shaped intersections with the flat side back to back this seems to help them hit vertical more consistently . The key is that the judge
can't see the  "D" shape as clearly as in the horizontal round eights so the judge is way less likely to ding you for a shape error.  What the judge does see is that you are hitting the vertical intersection more often and as a result the sides are also usually more consistent. Think about it, if your starting place for each loop is not vertical and maybe 15 feet apart your chance of consistently nailing each side of the eight goes way down.  The only giveaway to the judges on what you are doing is the amount of time you take tracking straight over the top and an alert judge will catch on but that error compared to what is normally seen is a major improvement.

Remember guys, the judge has only 2 key points to judge 1. the vertical intersection and 2. the sides of the eight (if you start the overhead climb-out upwind on the judges).

It is interesting to note, that some of these "D" shaped overhead guys then proceeded to work on reducing the size of the "flat" in each loop and their overhead maneuver began to look more and more like a correct "8".
I think the important thing is they got used to flying a consistent vertical intersection and then they just refined  the shape of it.

I am not saying that this is the ideal way to do things but some guys need help so badly with the overhead that perhaps anything would be an improvement to help them acheive vertical intersections more consistently.

Now, to help you visualize how wide the sides should be, let's take your "handy-dandy" Triangle we have all been talking about only this time we put the 90 degree point straight down and because each side of a 90 degree angle is 45 degrees we see how wide the overhead is supposed to be and you know everytime I do that as a reminder I realize that the correct size 8 is actually smaller than I would first think it should be.

Steve, good observations on the vertical eight and you are correct, if a flyer flys past vertical then the size or shape is going to have to be wrong to compensate.

                                                                              Till next time,
                                                                          Pat Robinson

[Trostle]

Pat,

I am not saying that what you advise is wrong regarding the intersections of the overhead eights.  What you suggest may be a learning tool for a pilot to improve on his eights.  But the pilot should be aware that putting "D" intersections in any of the round eights is an error, and depending on the degree of error, the maneuver score should so reflect. The problem is that so many flyers murder this part of the maneuver, that most judges sort of expect that that is the way the eights are to be flown.  (Sort of like watching everybody do 120-degree wide horizontal eights - everybody does it and when somebody flies the 90-degree horizontals, it looks "TOO TIGHT".)  Anyway back to the intersections of the overhead eights

First, intersections of all of the round eights are just a point of tangency.  In my clinics, one of the things I empahsize over and over is that this point of tangency is just that, it is a point.  The airplane is turning one way and then it should instantly be turning the other way.  It is physically impossible for the pilot to change the handle position fast enough to do this properly.  At least, the change in direction should be as quick as the pilot can flick his wrist from an inside turn to the outside turn, and vice versa.  (That flick of the wrist, though it can be a very short part of a second, it is still not instantaneous.)  A good experienced judge should look for that instant (or at least as close as possible) change in turn.  When a good judge sees that straight line as you recommend, there should be a major downgrade in the maneuver score for each intersection where that straight path occurs, whether on the horizontal round or vertical or overhead eights.  Also, an experienced judge can easily tell if the orientation/direction of the intersection is the same each time the model flies through those intersections of any of the round eights.  The judge does not need to be pefectly aligned with the direction of those tangent points in those vertical eights.  The judge has to watch and pay attention to what aspect he sees of the model at those tangent points.  The judge will see one of three aspects of the model at that point.  The judge might see only the tail view of the model (when the judge is perfectly in line with that tangency direction, or the judge might see some aspect of the top of the model or some aspect of the bottom of the model.  Whatever is viewed, that aspect should be the same each time the model is flown through that intersection.  If that same aspect if not seen, then it is a measure of how poorly the model has "X'd" the intersections or over-rotated while flying through the intersections.

Judges are not in a good location to see the "roundness" of the loops in the vertical eights.  But good judges can see if there are incorrect straight flight paths in those intersections and how the length/duration if that straight path is held in the intersections and the maneuver scores will so reflect   "D-shaped" loops in any of the round eights should not get good scores from a judge, and judges can see these, even in the overheads.

Even though roundness cannot be accurately seen on the overheads, the judge can watch for turn rates through the loops even when the pilot is constantly adjusting those turn rates as the heading changes relative to possible windy conditions.  Again, an experienced judge will be able to transpose in his mind what those loops really look like on the surface of the hemisphere.  In addition, and specifically on the overhead eights, the judge can tell how close  the edges of each of the loops are to the specified 45-degree elevation.  When you see those bottom extremities of each loop in the eights (which are the lowest part of the overhead eights), the judge can quickly visualize how tight another loop would have to be in order to fit beneath that bottom extremity (specified to be 45-degrees) and the the 5 foot "normal flight altitude".  Here again, with that tool in the judge's mind, it can easily be seen if the loops of the vertical eights are too big (which they normally are, even with experienced flyers), or if they come close to the specified 45-degree diameters.  The pilot can also use this to determine if the loops of his overhead eights are too big.  Just visualize at that lower extremity how tight a loop would have to be  performa a loop from that lower extremity and the ground.

All of this sounds like a lot of things to think about while flying or judging.  I believe that experienced judges naturally see these things without having to mentally go through a check list of things to look for during each maneuver.  Experience will flag whatever errors might appear.  It is just that experience is needed together with a comprehensive knowledge of what errors can be flown and sometimes are intentionally flown - like "D" intersections in ANY of the round eights.

[Ted Fancher]

Got one other way to help "see" the 45 deg.: fly to the bill.

The old master Bob Gieseke told me this one a LOOOOONG time ago.  His suggestion was to wear a baseball hat, set your body for a manuver, LOCK your head in place and fly the manuver so the tops just hit the bill of the cap.  If you watched Bob - especially his body positions - he practiced as he preached!

To be frank about it, I was never comfortable flying with a hat, and could never develop the discipline to "lock down" the way Bob did - but I do not move my head up & down except during verticle manuvers - there are limits to how far UP you can see without turning your head.

As a training aid you might try that for a flight or two just to get a "feel" and look of where 45 degrees is.

BINGO!

Ted Fancher

[phil c]

What many, many folks fly for a vertical eight looks more like a reversed ampersand.  The initial half loop is good.  The outside loop, coming into the wind, widens out, they tighten it up as they get control back when the plane passes overhead and pull out inverted at about 60-70 deg. and then have to make a wide, diving half loop to get back anywhere near level flight.  Often times they never even get the plane inverted and the last half loop is from a vertical dive, putting the second "eight" way off to the side.  As a judge, I give pretty good points if the maneuver is simply vertical and has two loops in it with the intersection near 45 deg..  Compared to the other things that can go wrong holding the intersection a bit long and making the loops into D's is minor.

[PatRobinson]

To: Keith Trostle

Keith , I agree with everything you said because it is all correct an valid.
 I would downgrade a flyer for a "D" shaped intersection in the overhead because it is incorrect and a good judge will nail you for it. Looking back,
I should have made that clearer in my earlier post.

A "D" shaped eight is a flawed maneuver, but then, so is staggering around all over the sky flying random disconnected loops.

I think the kind of flyer I was talking to doesn't have a coach to help him get things right and is so frustrated he wants to do something and is willing to select between the bad choices of flying no intersection or a flawed intersection in order to try to improve. The "D" shape forces you to focus on getting vertical and if you took that awareness of vertical and used it to improve the intersection of a correctly shaped eight then it could be a useful tool.
However, I did say that "this is not the best way to do this" because ,let's face it, if you continue to fly a flawed intersection it is going to end up holding you back and costing you points. Perhaps, for some guys it gets down to a choice between unrecognizable and poorly executed at certain points of their development.

I apologize, to everyone if it seemed that I was advocating flying a "D" shape
intersection as a normal course of action for everyone. I also might as well take myself to the woodshed for using the term "Cheating" because the word "Gaming", as in seeking a competitive advantage, is probably a more accurate and applicable word.

Keith I would like to thank you for your clear and precise reply because it was very helpful to everyone.  This is interesting.

TO Phil C :
I do believe I am going to have to look up ampersand.

                                                                        Till next time,
                                                                      Pat Robinson
                                                             

[Steve Helmick]

Ampersand = "&". 

I don't understand that. It would be a "Lazy Vertical 8", and not as called for in da boook. I haven't done one of those since I was in HS, and oh, the V8 is my "most tragic" trick. Crashed more out of the V8 than any other. It was turbulence, I tell ya, off dem trees, yeah, that was it.  Steve