Why "short kits"? (rant)

[Clint Ormosen]

I often see people here asking for short kits of current cottage mfg offerings. I've done the math and can't figure out why anyone would not want a full kit. When a kit maker is going through all the trouble and expense of getting a particular plane ready for laser cutting for all the ribs, fuse formers, fuse sides, etc, how much do you expect to save not buying the rest of the sheets and blocks needed to build the plane. Maybe $10-$20? I recently had a discussion with someone who expected to pay less than half of the full kit price for a "short kit". His reasoning was that the wood required to make a rib and former set, canopy, and fuse sides couldn't cost more $50., so that's how much it should cost.
So I asked him, "That's all you should pay for? The wood cost?" I explained that these guys spend hours upon hours getting CAD plans done, collecting materials, getting landing gear bent, canopies molded, and lastly getting the wood cut. Plus, sample kits need to be cut to find any problems and a usually prototype plane needs to be built. So after doing all of this, how could anyone afford to sell a partial kit for $50-$60 and not lose money?

So come on guys. If you want a kit, pony up and buy it. If you want to scratch build, do it. But please don't expect our kit makers to run themselves out of business so you can save $20. Some kit makers do offer short kits, and that's fine. But I expect they didn't do all the work needed to produce any more of the plane than that, so no money would be lost.

Support our cottage kit makers, or we won't have them. Trust me, they're not getting rich on this stuff.

[John Hammonds]

Well, I think from my perspective the reason why I am more interested in short kits is purely due to being geographically remote (UK) from the "Cottage industries" in question. There is not really much in mainland Britain as far as modern laser cut kits available. Yes we have places which sell the Sig, Topflight, Brodak kits and I'm sure if I sat down to do the maths they are not making much out of them but for the models I am currently interested in there is no retail outlet. I've done the buying full kits from the US thing and by the time UK customs and other handling charges you were not expecting are added on we are paying a GBP figure which is the same as the USD number (So an increase of anything up to 50%). Short kits due to the lack of Spars etc are generally a lot cheaper as far as shipping etc is concerned because the packaging is a more compact.. (The size of an international package seems to increase the costs more than the weight). If it's a pain in the A$$ for the smaller manufacturers to make short kits then it's my loss, but if it's as easy as just making more ribs etc and sticking them in a smaller box then they get a sale they would not have got otherwise and I don't have to make all the parts I dislike making. So a "Win" situation for both parties. I accept there will always be a premium to be paid, just because I only get probably 40% of the full  parts I would still expect to pay more than 40% of the full price but the savings on S&H make it worthwhile.

TTFN
John.
 

[Bruce Perry]

John,

Very valid point on the shipping issue.  Would it make sense to do larger orders and bring more kits thereby reducing the cost of shipping per kit?  Just a thought.

I have a few of the new c/l kits, notably winddancer and build it right.  I have never opened a kit box before these that I thought as highly of the quality.  I have only done the initial touchy feel of a new purchase but I must say there are no parts that I feel need replacing due to weight of wood or quality of cut. 

Truly outstanding products.  I wouldn't expect to pay any less than I did for these either.  They were certainly the most expensive kits I've bought, but in the same breath, the best value!!  $80 for a kit that you have to replace the wood is no bargain.  $200 plus for a kit that has great wood and is well cut with well chosen control components, that's a deal!

You never regret owning the best. 


Bruce

[Mike Griffin]

Clint you make some very valid points in your post.  Walter and I have discussed this very topic on many occasions and I have sometimes wondered about the reasoning of buying short kits but we both have offered short kits and will probably continue to do so.  If you buy a short kit you still have to make up the difference in materials from somewhere and the time it takes to gather the material counts for something.  I have posted about what goes in to producing a laser cut or a hand cut kit and will not belabor the point here but the points you made are very true. 

I just posted another thread that you may want to check out about the contents of a short kit.  I have sent out short kits in the past and had remarks like "well I thought this was going to be in the kit or I did not know you were going to include this"  etc.   When I do produce a a short kit run, I will make it very specific as to what is going to be in that box when you open it up so there are no surprises.

I have been very fortunate with the customer base I have established and have received some very nice feedback from them.  We all are open for new ideas and suggestions to make things better for the hobby.

MIke

[john e. holliday]

I think I have stated this before in posts here and in conversation with Walter on the phone.  A short kit is one with the ribs, formers if built up fuse and full size plans.  Mike Pratt's Primary Force had the profile fuse in four peices.  The sides had to be glued together and then laminated.  He even had the ribs, spars and tail surfaces.  The rest I provided, the landing gear, leading/trailing edge, covering and all the rest that pertains planes like the controls.  Yes the first kit I got from Mike was a short kit on my request.  Did not quibble over price either.  They know how much they need to ask to make money and shipping should be considered when you order one of the kits.  At SIG one year they have a minimum amount of kits to be sold before they even consider making one.  Needless to say we could not gaurantee a sale of a thousand carrier kits of the particular design at that time.  Don't for get they have to have storage space for all of this also.   

[Bill Little]

Hi Clint,

I cannot "argue" with your post in any way. 

I also cannot pay out $200 for a kit, and at this time in my life, I never will...  I have wood that I can probably never use all of, that was bought over the years.  $50 here, etc., so I am usually the one asking for a short kit.  Simply economics in my case.  Not every one has a couple hundred dollars to throw around at one time.  So far, I have not spent $200 even on an engine (and I have PAs, STs, ATs, etc., )  And I no longer have ANY credit cards. nor will I ever again.

I have built from a clean sheet of paper, from plans, kits, etc,. so the cutting of parts is not a problem, nor has it ever been.  I *do* like the idea of saving some time if I can afford it, though.  The first *short kit* I ever got was a set of laser cut ribs from Randy for an SV-11 wing.  I have bought plans and rib sets from Brodak and Eric Rule.  I have received several other short kits since then, however, and I think it is great for my situation.

I believe that the cottage industry guys do a fantastic job,  I personally know Walter, Tom Nieburh (him and Linda spent a couple days at my house), Bill Sawyer, Eric Rule, and John Brodak, and they all deserve what they ask for their full kits.  I just cannot pay it all at one time.  That's not hard to understand, is it?  We are not all the same, that's all. 

Bill

[Clint Ormosen]

I'm definately not saying there isn't a need for short kits or that kit makers shouldn't bother making them. Believe me, I know that shelling out $200 plus for a kit is a lot for some people and quite impossible for many. I hadn't considered overseas shipping either.
My gripe is simply with those that want to request a short version of an available full kit. It basicly cuts the legs out from under the maker. He cannot ship short kits after going through the expense of designing the full version. Actually, I guess my real gripe is with those that expect a short kit to cost less than half of the full kit price. Can't be done.

[john e. holliday]

Clint, I myself do not expect the Manufacturer to short cut the price on a kit just be cause it is a short kit.  It is that I am running out of room in the shop for full kits.  Especially the ARC's.

[Jim Thomerson]

Familiarize yourself with postal costs, both national and international.  I recently bought a short kit from England which was sent International First Class.  Maximum length for that class is 24 in.  Anything longer has to go in a much more expensive class.  

For example: from USA to England, weight one pound, dimensions 24 x 2 x 6 can go International First class for $10.76.
A one pound, 38 x 2 x 6 box has to go International Priority Mail for $28.00.

I'm not going to argue with anyone about kit price, but I had just as soon not pay a lot more postage to get spars and sheet wood which duplicate what I have in my shop.

[Allan Perret]

I like short kits because I like to select or make my own control system components.  More times than not I discard control systems that come in full kits, to replace with my preference.

[Michael Boucher]

Hi Jim, I'm curious as to what short kit you got from the UK? 

[Clint Ormosen]

Clint, I myself do not expect the Manufacturer to short cut the price on a kit just be cause it is a short kit.  It is that I am running out of room in the shop for full kits.  Especially the ARC's.

Hey Doc, I can "store" a few of those for you.

[Jim Thomerson]

I bought a short kit of the Toreador from Replikits, http://www.replikit.com/replikit2010/index.php 

I think it was an experiment for them, as it came in a regular box cut down to 24 in. They ship a lot internationally, so postage is an issue. 

[Tim Wescott]

• Because I've bought so many kits where the first step in the assembly process is "inspect all the wood and throw half of it away*".  (Granted, this shouldn't be a problem with a dedicated cottage-industry kit maker).
• Because I've yet to build a kit that I haven't modified somehow, and it's a shame to have to toss a nice cut piece in the scrap pile just because it doesn't fit what I'm doing with the kit
• Because even if all the wood is superior, I may want lighter, heavier, or different grained wood than what the kit maker has included

* Unless it's a Comet kit, in which case I save the nifty stripwood for spars in all my scratch-built projects, _then_ throw _all_ the wood away.