Plans

[Bob Mears]

Controllineplans.com is gone. But, facebook, controllineplans is up and running. Hundreds of Barry Baxters plans are now listed in the "files" section and free to download. Have fun!

Bob Mears

[GERALD WIMMER]

Hello
Thanks Bob for your generosity donating so all those plans to us all to use. I have found that I can blow them up to the scale I want on my large monitor and trace directly off the screen very easily when I can't wait to print things off.
Regards Gerald

[Bob Mears]

Good to hear! Lets build some airplanes!!!!

[Bob Hunt]

Can someone explain to me precisely why it is okay for any entity to pirate plans and sell them, or provide PDFs of them for free? Most of the plans that I see on websites that provide them for sale or for free are plans that have been published in model magazines over the years. The rights to those plans belong to the magazine. If the magazine is defunct, there is still the matter of the plans being the intellectual property of the designer. Do these suppliers ever contact the designer and/or the magazine in which the design appeared and ask for permission to sell them or give them away in PDF form? Do they ever offer compensation to the designer?

Well, I'm here to tell you that this is piracy; just plain stealing. Several of my designs are being offered by a number of these plan sites. None of them have ever contacted me about compensation or permission. If any of you think that this is "okay," then you are condoning the piracy. And, it's really not about the money; very few have made any real money in this hobby/sport. It's about what's right and decent.

There are those who will take me to task for my views on this. To them I say, "How would you like it if someone was stealing something from you?" These website entities did none of the creative work, they wrote none of the articles that accompanied the plans in the magazines, and yet they benefit from the sale of plans, and in some cases even laser cut kits. Please, please tell me how this is not stealing, and how anyone who has received plans and or kits from these entities are not in possession of stolen property.

Anyone who is selling or distributing my intellectual property without my permission, or without negotiated compensation is nothing more than a thief.

I'm not particularly sorry if any of you think less of me for this post.

Bob Hunt
AMA 1114 HOF
PAMPA HOF

[Bill Morell]

Interesting Bob Hunt. The plans Bob Mears has listed has been around for years and years  and you're just now realizing it?

[Bob Hunt]

Interesting Bob Hunt. The plans Bob Mears has listed has been around for years and years  and you're just now realizing it?

No Bill, I did know it. I've known about several who do this and have done it for years; and every now and then I point out that it is wrong. Those who want to make themselves feel better about this practice will rationalize to make themselves feel better, and they will call me the bad guy for pointing out the problem. I'm a big boy; I can take it. The important thing to me is to expose those who think that this practice is acceptable. Again, why should anyone make money on something that someone else labored to produce?

Awaiting rationalizations... - Bob

[Bob Mears]

Can someone explain to me precisely why it is okay for any entity to pirate plans and sell them, or provide PDFs of them for free? Most of the plans that I see on websites that provide them for sale or for free are plans that have been published in model magazines over the years. The rights to those plans belong to the magazine. If the magazine is defunct, there is still the matter of the plans being the intellectual property of the designer. Do these suppliers ever contact the designer and/or the magazine in which the design appeared and ask for permission to sell them or give them away in PDF form? Do they ever offer compensation to the designer?

Well, I'm here to tell you that this is piracy; just plain stealing. Several of my designs are being offered by a number of these plan sites. None of them have ever contacted me about compensation or permission. If any of you think that this is "okay," then you are condoning the piracy. And, it's really not about the money; very few have made any real money in this hobby/sport. It's about what's right and decent.

There are those who will take me to task for my views on this. To them I say, "How would you like it if someone was stealing something from you?" These website entities did none of the creative work, they wrote none of the articles that accompanied the plans in the magazines, and yet they benefit from the sale of plans, and in some cases even laser cut kits. Please, please tell me how this is not stealing, and how anyone who has received plans and or kits from these entities are not in possession of stolen property.

Anyone who is selling or distributing my intellectual property without my permission, or without negotiated compensation is nothing more than a thief.

I'm not particularly sorry if any of you think less of me for this post.

Bob Hunt
AMA 1114 HOF
PAMPA HOF

Guess that my bad. I just try to advance modeling the best I can since were slowly dying out. I figure any promotion is good for us all. But no worries Bob, just tell me what model you have on the site and I'll delete them. I'm sure no one will notice.

[goozgog]

Hello Bob,
  You are absolutely correct.

  I use to draw for a living.

  Once I had an elaborate and personal
design stolen by unscrupulous people.
  When I caught them red handed
they replied.
" So who did you steal it from?"

  I always give my C/L drawings away
free but I would be livid if someone else
was profiting from them without permission.

Stick to your guns Mr. Hunt.

Cheers! - K.

[Bob Hunt]

Thanks for the support on this Goozgog. This really goes a bit deeper. All of my published designs were featured in Flying Models magazine. I sold the rights to them for publishing only. In every case FM would re-assign the kit rights to the original author when that was requested in writing to the publisher. I know that for a fact because during my 17 years as the Editor of Flying Models I was asked by the publisher (Hal Carstens) to write the letters to those who made the request for kitting rights, officially giving them that permission. Did it a bunch of times.

Hal was meticulous about renewing the copyright licenses for all the plans in his FM plans directory. When FM went defunct the entire plans collection was sold to Thayer Syme; and he is now selling those plans. His contact info is thayer@flying-models.com. Every time a pirated FM plan is sold, money comes out of Thayer's pocket. He is the rightful owner of those plans. And that goes for kitting purposes as well. If someone wants to kit a design that appeared in FM the proper path is to contact the designer and ask if he/she would care to have the design in question kitted. The next step is for the designer to contact the entity that rightfully owns the design. That entity can then re-assign the rights for kitting if he/she chooses. At that point the designer can negotiate a fee or royalty with the prospective kit manufacturer, or allow them to kit it without compensation. The fact that we are a small - and ever diminishing - group should have nothing to do with this process.

Mr. Mears has chimed in above and offered to take my designs off his list of plans, and suggested that "no one would notice." Nice jab, Mr. Mears, and you are probably correct as dozens of my designs have been built and flown in competition around the world over the years; there is probably a saturation factor there. You could just have left it at "my bad" and not resorted to sarcasm; but I guess that is the way to make me feel bad for pointing out the transgression. And I don't even for a minute think that you did anything that you thought was wrong; I'm certain that your motives were altruistic. But now you might start thinking a bit different as something you didn't think of was pointed out to you. And, you are not even the one my missive was aimed at. There is an entity in Portugal called AeroFred that is selling plans, and kits for copyrighted designs.

I'm exercised about this because I have made this same complaint about several entities who have been pirating intellectual properties over the years, and no one seems to care. So, I'll be the "bad guy" here and point out the problems and be scorned by many for my views. So be it. 

Bob Hunt

 

[Ken Culbertson]

Building a model from published plans provided to the publisher by the author is not theft of any kind, that is why they are published, but copying plans for redistribution without the author's permission is not right.  Profiting from that is theft plain and simple.  I was the "test dummy" for one of the better FF/Sailplane designers in the 80's.  He had two designs stolen and kitted without him ever getting a dime.  It goes on all of the time and we let it.  Kudo's to Bob for pointing that out.

Ken 

[Richard Fleming]

I agree with Bob. Some folks like PDF plans and have them printed. I am still old school and love to look at the plans. Alot the older plans  are really works of art. When FM did the feature on the Neptune , I was blown away with the beautiful artwork. Good enough to frame and hang on the wall! I have bought a number of plans from Barry when he sold them and loved the collection he offered. Anyway, let's keep building.

[Curare]

In a previous life i was a marine designer. More than once we've thrown down injunctions and lawsuits for people blatantly plagiarising our designs.  That was big potatoes though. Even so, the principle is the same.

All our drawings carried the same disclaimer:
"This drawing is the sole property of **** & must not be copied, reproduced or modified in part or in whole whatsoever without prior written permission by an authorised person"

Intellectual property laws exist for a reason.

[fred cesquim]

well, if one canīt realize Bob Hunt contribution to this hobby, sport and how his designs brought trophies do top flyers worldwide since the 70īs, this person donīt belong to this hobby, heīs just making money out of otherīs efforts and donīt even have the decency to be corteous to one of the guys that made his earnings without any effort.

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Thanks for the support on this Goozgog. This really goes a bit deeper. All of my published designs were featured in Flying Models magazine. I sold the rights to them for publishing only. In every case FM would re-assign the kit rights to the original author when that was requested in writing to the publisher. I know that for a fact because during my 17 years as the Editor of Flying Models I was asked by the publisher (Hal Carstens) to write the letters to those who made the request for kitting rights, officially giving them that permission. Did it a bunch of times.

Hal was meticulous about renewing the copyright licenses for all the plans in his FM plans directory. When FM went defunct the entire plans collection was sold to Thayer Syme; and he is now selling those plans. His contact info is thayer@flying-models.com. Every time a pirated FM plan is sold, money comes out of Thayer's pocket. He is the rightful owner of those plans. And that goes for kitting purposes as well. If someone wants to kit a design that appeared in FM the proper path is to contact the designer and ask if he/she would care to have the design in question kitted. The next step is for the designer to contact the entity that rightfully owns the design. That entity can then re-assign the rights for kitting if he/she chooses. At that point the designer can negotiate a fee or royalty with the prospective kit manufacturer, or allow them to kit it without compensation. The fact that we are a small - and ever diminishing - group should have nothing to do with this process.

Mr. Mears has chimed in above and offered to take my designs off his list of plans, and suggested that "no one would notice." Nice jab, Mr. Mears, and you are probably correct as dozens of my designs have been built and flown in competition around the world over the years; there is probably a saturation factor there. You could just have left it at "my bad" and not resorted to sarcasm; but I guess that is the way to make me feel bad for pointing out the transgression. And I don't even for a minute think that you did anything that you thought was wrong; I'm certain that your motives were altruistic. But now you might start thinking a bit different as something you didn't think of was pointed out to you. And, you are not even the one my missive was aimed at. There is an entity in Portugal called AeroFred that is selling plans, and kits for copyrighted designs.

I'm exercised about this because I have made this same complaint about several entities who have been pirating intellectual properties over the years, and no one seems to care. So, I'll be the "bad guy" here and point out the problems and be scorned by many for my views. So be it. 

Bob Hunt

Bob, you have contributed greatly to the hobby in many ways and have earned our respect.

I understand you are rightfully upset seeing your own designs sold.  But, let's be clear: you speak only for yourself.

Several prominent and highly respected designers - and the daughter of one - are thrilled that I offer printed copies of their plans - beginning with Walt Musciano, more than 20 years ago.  You cannot - and should not - speak for them.  I've even obtained permission from a few to offer kits of their designs, no strings - or monetary payment - involved.  Bill Netzeband, for example, was all about promoting the hobby and keeping costs down. He sent me plans for his "Ambush" in several file formats.

SIG holds the rights to many Berkeley/Fox designs.  Have you tried purchasing plans for their AT-6/SNJ Texan lately?  They won't offer it at any price.  So the guy who wants to build one should just "do without?"

Flying Models folded right about after mailing me just one issue after I renewed my subscription for several years - like many others here.  Will Thayer Syme send me (us) a refund?  Yes, he bought just the assets ... "You must remember that some things legally right are not morally right." - Abraham Lincoln

Correct me if I'm wrong: Barry Baxter personally drew many of the plans offered on controllineplans.com, then sold the rights to Bob Mears - who's now offering them free.  And he's a bad guy!?!

Try purchasing some old control line plans from Model Airplane News.  Those I paid for weren't worth the paper they were printed on.  I'd say the same for several I purchased from the AMA Plans Service.  Some are just outright ugly!

Suggestion: Relax a minute, have something refreshing, the world will look better in the morning.

Dennis

[Ken Culbertson]

But, let's be clear: you speak only for yourself.

Actually, I think he speaks for a majority of us.  The issue of intellectual property rights should be at the sole discretion of the author.  If he/she does not want it copied, that should be respected.  If they want it to be freely distributed, then that is a good thing too.  To be perfectly clear, I do not have the right to build a Genesis from pirated plans just because I want to.  Things look different when you are in the business of designing things and your mortgage payment comes from that effort.  I write business accounting software and I have had two systems that I designed from scratch stolen.  I went to court on the first one and defended my copyrights successfully, but the cost was ridiculous.  I let the second one slide and now I pay royalties to use my own software and get nothing from 3rd party sales.  Bob is no different.  The only reason that these copy services get away with it is the high cost of defending your property.  I am one of those who would gladly publish my designs for free use by anyone and I have two I may do that with but only for "personal consumption".  When I see people profiting from what they have taken from others without their permission my hair stands on end. 

I am sure that you see things differently - Ken

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Actually, I think he speaks for a majority of us.  The issue of intellectual property rights should be at the sole discretion of the author.  If he/she does not want it copied, that should be respected.  If they want it to be freely distributed, then that is a good thing too.  To be perfectly clear, I do not have the right to build a Genesis from pirated plans just because I want to.  Things look different when you are in the business of designing things and your mortgage payment comes from that effort.  I write business accounting software and I have had two systems that I designed from scratch stolen.  I went to court on the first one and defended my copyrights successfully, but the cost was ridiculous.  I let the second one slide and now I pay royalties to use my own software and get nothing from 3rd party sales.  Bob is no different.  The only reason that these copy services get away with it is the high cost of defending your property.  I am one of those who would gladly publish my designs for free use by anyone and I have two I may do that with but only for "personal consumption".  When I see people profiting from what they have taken from others without their permission my hair stands on end. 

I am sure that you see things differently - Ken

Yes, I do.

Will you please get permission from Jack Sheeks to offer his plans?  From Cal Smith?  From Bill Netzeband, or Al Rabe, or ...  Don Hutchinson practically begged people here to build his designs.  I know, as he granted me (sole) rights to sell copies of his plans 8 years ago.

Bob speaks for Bob.  Period.  I respect that.

You and I both have strong accounting backgrounds.  I spent many years as a corporate controller, public accountant, tax manager, consultant, general manager of a publishing company.  Since I make a killing profiting from the work of others, here's an offer you can't refuse: Show up at my house.  I'll sell you several hundred plans for a couple of bucks each.  Assuming you have room to store them, packing supplies, labels etc.  When can I expect you, Ken?

Can you name anyone in our "cottage industries" that got rich?  Surely a reasoning adult with significant accounting experience realizes anyone doing this is involved in a labor of love.

I repeat: Bob speaks for Bob.  Bill Netzeband had a totally different approach.  As do others.  I respect Bob's position and don't offer copies of his plans.  He has no more right to speak for Barry Baxter or Bob Mears or Bill Netzeband or Walt Musciano than the man in the moon.

One thing I learned early as a high school wrestler is that we all put our pants on one leg at a time.  Heroes included.

If we truly want to start closing down those who sell plans they have no right to, let's start with some "legends" like Tom Dixon, who's done it for years.  Or, are "heroes" excluded?

Really, too many here take themselves much too seriously.  Live and let live, stick to your own value system and move on ...

Dennis

[pat king]

I offer more than 220 different C/L laser cut kits. All the plans are copyrighted and carry a copyright notice. I sell full size .pdf files of all the airplane plans for $5.00 a set. As long as the buyer doesn't sell copies of the plans or the files I have no problem with them. If they sell copies of the plan files or plots of the plans and I find out there will be discussion about intellectual property rights. I have been involved in winning an intellectual property rights lawsuit that resulted in a settlement of between $10,000,000.00 and $100,000,000.00! I was a named inventor on one of the patents.

I have 54 Ringmaster Varients I do not offer any kits that someone was producing when I started selling them. There are people who are selling Ringmaster varient kits that I produce, but they started after I was selling those designs. Scrupulous C/L kit manufacturers do not offer kits that someone else is already selling.

As Bob has pointed out, selling the intellectual property of someone without their permission is theft!

The old saying is true- "The way to make a Million Dollars in the Control Line airplane business is to start with two Million!"

Pat

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

The cost to bring a kit to market is high.  The AMA Hall of Fame, which I think is an excellent online model for the PAMPA HoF, has an excellent article on L. Glen Sigafoose.  He stated that the cost to bring a kit to market was as high as 30K-50K USD.  And that's in 1978 dollars.

The point is that IP has value.  In the model world, one place where value is being created is in 3-D/cnc/laser CAD/CAM files.  Though I am not highly familiar with the process, my impression is that creating, for example, a file to laser cut a set of Ringmaster ribs takes significant effort.  We are lucky in our local club, NVCL, to have a member who provides instruction and service in this area, also teaching the craft at the local "Maker Space."

Glen's comments:  https://www.modelaircraft.org/sites/default/files/SigafooseLGlen.pdf

[Ken Culbertson]

I spent many years as a corporate controller, public accountant, tax manager, consultant, general manager of a publishing company.  Since I make a killing profiting from the work of others, here's an offer you can't refuse: Show up at my house.  I'll sell you several hundred plans for a couple of bucks each.  Assuming you have room to store them, packing supplies, labels etc.  When can I expect you, Ken?

I have done all of those things except running a publishing company which I have no intention of trying.    I don't appreciate the spirit of your offer and I certainly refuse it. Why would I want a couple hundred plans when I design all of my planes?  I have built one kit since 1973.  That withstanding I would not buy plans that I suspect were not authorized to be sold.  Even those that have passed on without specifying what was to happen to their designs have heirs who inherited the rights.  Were you seriously in the publishing business and have so little regards for IP that you can't get permission for what you sell?

I think I will refrain from further posts on this thread.  What I would have to say is not in the spirit of this forum.

Ken

[Dennis Leonhardi]

I offer more than 220 different C/L laser cut kits. All the plans are copyrighted and carry a copyright notice. I sell full size .pdf files of all the airplane plans for $5.00 a set. As long as the buyer doesn't sell copies of the plans or the files I have no problem with them. If they sell copies of the plan files or plots of the plans and I find out there will be discussion about intellectual property rights. I have been involved in winning an intellectual property rights lawsuit that resulted in a settlement of between $10,000,000.00 and $100,000,000.00! I was a named inventor on one of the patents.

I have 54 Ringmaster Varients I do not offer any kits that someone was producing when I started selling them. There are people who are selling Ringmaster varient kits that I produce, but they started after I was selling those designs. Scrupulous C/L kit manufacturers do not offer kits that someone else is already selling.

As Bob has pointed out, selling the intellectual property of someone without their permission is theft!

The old saying is true- "The way to make a Million Dollars in the Control Line airplane business is to start with two Million!"

Pat

Yes Pat, and I've sold one of your plans - the plan I purchased from you and decided not to use.  You were aware of it.

Dennis

[Dennis Leonhardi]

I have done all of those things except running a publishing company which I have no intention of trying.    I don't appreciate the spirit of your offer and I certainly refuse it. Why would I want a couple hundred plans when I design all of my planes?  I have built one kit since 1973.  That withstanding I would not buy plans that I suspect were not authorized to be sold.  Even those that have passed on without specifying what was to happen to their designs have heirs who inherited the rights.  Were you seriously in the publishing business and have so little regards for IP that you can't get permission for what you sell?

I think I will refrain from further posts on this thread.  What I would have to say is not in the spirit of this forum.

Ken

Ken, I've had tremendous respect for you, and we've been in agreement on many controversial issues.  But I believe the "spirit of this forum" was left behind long ago in this discussion.

Those who disagree have failed to answer simple questions.  I've never met Bob Mears, though I chatted with his father at Nats combat circles.  Is he a bad guy for offering free plans that he owns the rights to?

YES OR NO?

Those who come here to condemn others with "talking points" would do well to do some homework first.  Bob Hunt has a perfect right to be upset about HIS designs.  Period.  To condemn those who sell copies of other designer's plans - without any knowledge of the designer's wishes or rights - is simply WRONG.

Incidentally, eBay has a VERO (Verified Rights Owner) Policy which allows anyone with rights to stop the sale of their works by others.  I've used it myself.  Many of my (watermarked even) photos have been used by others in my 20+ years on eBay.  I only invoked it when one particular seller literally treated a large number of photos as his own.  For the most part, I look the other way.  A hundred years from now, will it really matter?  Speaking only for myself, I have much more important issues ...

Now, let's promote the hobby.  Your friend wants to build a T-6/SNJ Texan from SIG plans.  SIG won't sell him the plans.  Would you offer him a copy?

YES OR NO?

It's easy to spout talking points, and often quite different when the rubber meets the road, so to speak.

Dennis

[Trostle]

Now, let's promote the hobby.  Your friend wants to build a T-6/SNJ Texan from SIG plans.  SIG won't sell him the plans.  Would you offer him a copy?  YES OR NO?

Dennis

Several years ago, I bought a disk from eBay that has all of the Berkeley kit plans.  Included is the T-6.  Templates for ribs and formers are included.

Keith

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Bob,

I've got a Prather pitch gauge with no instructions.  Pitch gauges are not exactly available on every corner here in 2023.  While I mostly buy props off the shelf, and have never considered checking or re-pitching props, I have respect for those who do.  I'd hate to throw the thing out, as they are in demand.  I have no idea who owns the IP. 

Do you think it's reasonable for me to put out a net call for instructions? 

If the answer is yes, would it be reasonable for a fellow like Bob Mears to make them available on a website I could search and use myself?

thanks for the discussion,

Peter

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Several years ago, I bought a disk from eBay that has all of the Berkeley kit plans.  Included is the T-6.

Keith

Keith, you illustrate one of the points I've tried to make here.  SIG holds the rights to the old Berkeley plans, but they won't print or sell copies.

If a modeler wants a set of those old plans, he's essentially left with 2 choices: either purchase a copy from another seller, or "just forget it."

We often see folks here moaning about the demise of our hobby; which choice is better for the hobby?

Dennis

[Dennis Leonhardi]

… Again, why should anyone make money on something that someone else labored to produce?
Awaiting rationalizations... - Bob

Mr. Hunt: Thank you for your many years of service as the Editor of Flying Models!

You suggest a loyalty to the current owner of FM plans.  Drawing on your many years of experience with the publication, can you tell us -

(1) How much was owed to Allen Brickhaus, for example, for his articles and plans at the time of his death?

(2) What was the total amount of unearned subscription revenue lost to subscribers at the time of the bankruptcy?

(3) Exactly who is - to use your own words - “… [making] money on something that someone else labored to produce?”

                      You must remember that some things legally right are not morally right. - Abraham Lincoln
 
Dennis

[Bob Hunt]

Dennis:

You have changed the narrative. I'm pasting in here a section from one of your posts above:

"Several prominent and highly respected designers - and the daughter of one - are thrilled that I offer printed copies of their plans - beginning with Walt Musciano, more than 20 years ago.  You cannot - and should not - speak for them.  I've even obtained permission from a few to offer kits of their designs, no strings - or monetary payment - involved.  Bill Netzeband, for example, was all about promoting the hobby and keeping costs down. He sent me plans for his "Ambush" in several file formats."


Kudos, you apparently did due diligence with the above mentioned designers/authors and received permission to use their work. That's all I was looking for. Conversely many have pirated my plans, and plans of many designers, without even trying to obtain permission. Let's start with me. Not one of the entities that offer plans for my designs for sale or for free as a download have ever contacted me and had the courtesy to ASK my permission. Funny thing is, except for the designs that are the copyrighted material belonging to Thayer Syme (Flying Models Plan Service) I would have most likely given my permission. Have you obtained permission from the original designers or their families for all the plans you are distributing? This boils down to what is right. I think that is very much in keeping with the spirit of the forum. Or is expecting some common courtesy now a negative spirit sort of thing?

I'm going to do a little research to try and find out how many designer's whose work in now being offered for sale, or for free, have been contacted and asked for permission. It seems that only a very select group has been extended that courtesy. 

I'm going to relate a story here that kind of illustrates my point of view:

My father, James A. Hunt, started flying model airplanes when Admiral Byrd flew over the North Pole in 1926, and that led to a life of passion for flying in all forms for him. He was an avid collector of aviation and model aviation publications. I remember as a young boy pouring through all those great magazines and making mental notes of the models that I would someday like to build and fly. One of the models I kept coming back to was a design by S. Calhoun "Cal" Smith (who, by the way, was the father of the CL carrier event). There was a book published by Fawcett Publications (now long defunct) and written by Cal that had many of his original designs for model planes, boats and even model cars. The title of that book was "Cal Smith on Model Building." The design in that book that caught my eye was the Frisky Pete. It was a smallish CL Stunt model that had aesthetics very similar to the full-size Minnow Goodyear racer. In the mid 1990s I finally decided it was time to build one. I pulled out my well worn copy of that book and had the local graphics shop scan and enlarge the plan to the scales shown on the plates. There were two plates to that plan. Understandably the enlarged plan I received was very "fuzzy" around the edges and the lines were quite rough. I put the main plate onto the drawing board, covered it with a piece of drafting vellum and traced the plan, making sure to run my pencil down the center of the rough lines from the enlarged plan to ensure an average. I did the same with the second plate, which showed a different view of the plane (top versus side). Imagine my surprise when after completing the overlays I found that many of the dimensions of the two plates disagreed significantly. It took me quite a while to figure out the discrepancies, but I was finally able to do a complete redraw and get an accurate plan from which to build my model. It was all that I expected and on its second flight it won the first round of OTS at VSC (Went on to finish third that year with no more than five flights on the ship!). 

I started receiving calls from many fliers asking for the plan. That's where I had the moral wake up call. I could not in good conscience sell that plan; it was the intellectual property of Cal Smith, and maybe even still a copyrighted item belonging to Fawcett Publications or whatever entity might have bought them out when they went defunct. I decided to do due diligence and try to contact Cal's family to ask for permission to distribute that plan. Cal at that point was long since gone... I called the AMA museum curator and asked for some help in tracking down someone from his family. No joy there; there was no record of anyone connected to Cal. I went online and searched his name hoping to find a relative I could contact to obtain permission. Again no joy. I also tried to contact someone who could point me to any publishing company that might have  claim to that plan's copyright. No joy there either. After a rather extensive search for all this I decided to go ahead and make that plan available. I did a new plate that incorporated all the internal changes that would be required to allow room for a tank that would run a modern engine long enough to do the OTS pattern, and then inked and lettered the plan with a lot of detail included. And, yes, I did begin offering that plan for sale... for a while. At some point it hit me that it was still not right in my own mind to be doing that, and so I have stopped selling that plan.

Dennis: You and I will never see eye to eye on this matter. I wonder; have you ever had one of your designs published? If so, did you receive compensation for the design by whomever published it? And if so, would you feel comfortable with someone pirating your design and selling it for profit without your permission? Perhaps your moral compass is different than mine and you would not care about any of that. Each of us is different.

I do believe I have the right to speak my mind about pirating when it comes to designer's who have now passed. A lot of them were personal friends. And a lot of them might have freely given their permission to have their work distributed for free or for profit. Since they are gone, they cannot do that, and there is no way of knowing that they would or would not. However, it is still in my mind a required courtesy to do due diligence and try to find a relative that could on their behalf okay any distribution of their intellectual property. To just assume that it is okay to use something for profit that you do not own the rights to, or have appropriate permission to use is - as I have stated above - stealing. You can rationalize your position, and you can try to point out where I'm the one in the wrong. I'll let a higher power decide that one.

Gee, I'm sure it takes a lot of effort to scan, copy and distribute the hard work and long hours of designing others have done. Hope you find some time to rest up.

Bob Hunt   
   

[Bob Hunt]

Mr. Hunt: Thank you for your many years of service as the Editor of Flying Models!

You suggest a loyalty to the current owner of FM plans.  Drawing on your many years of experience with the publication, can you tell us -

(1) How much was owed to Allen Brickhaus, for example, for his articles and plans at the time of his death?

(2) What was the total amount of unearned subscription revenue lost to subscribers at the time of the bankruptcy?

(3) Exactly who is - to use your own words - “… [making] money on something that someone else labored to produce?”

                      You must remember that some things legally right are not morally right. - Abraham Lincoln
 
Dennis

Sigh... Nice try, Dennis. The long established practice of attacking to prevent being attacked is noted here. To your points, I was long gone from Flying Models when their financial difficulties began. Yes, I am well aware that they could not afford to pay their authors for their work for quite some time. Ask any FM author who was published during my tenure there and they will tell you that they got paid on time for any work they did for me while I was in that post. To your other points, wrong is wrong no matter who or what the circumstances. So, take that up with whomever is responsible for the transgressions with my blessings. None of that pertains to the discussion here about pirated intellectual rights.

Bob Hunt 

[Bill Morell]

Bob Hunt, this whole discussion about "pirated" plans really deserves a separate thread. It's no wonder that Bob Mears responded as he did as it sounded personal.

[Peter in Fairfax, VA]

Got Prather prop pitch instructions.  Bears no patent or copyright markings.

[Bob Hunt]

Bob Hunt, this whole discussion about "pirated" plans really deserves a separate thread. It's no wonder that Bob Mears responded as he did as it sounded personal.

 Perhaps you're right about a separate thread, Bill. It has gotten personal; both ways I fear. It is personal to me when my work is used without my permission or even the courtesy of a request to use it. I'm certain that Bob is a great guy; I've heard nothing but good about him. And, this was not aimed just at him; there are quite a few sites that offer plans for free or for sale that also don't give the courtesy of a request.

Hopefully all of these sites will hear of this exchange and modify their way of doing business... But I'm not inclined to hold my breath until that happens. Nothing will change. But at least I had the opportunity again to vent on this subject.

So, peace to Bob and to Dennis; we'll have to agree to disagree and move on for the good of the hobby/sport. That's what I intend to do.

Later - Bob 

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Bob Hunt, this whole discussion about "pirated" plans really deserves a separate thread. It's no wonder that Bob Mears responded as he did as it sounded personal.

 

Mr. Hunt: I believe you made it very personal by demeaning Bob Mears - who I don't even know - in this forum.  And, by implication, anyone else who offers copies of plans.

KISS: Does Mears have the right to offer in any, way, shape or form plans to which he owns the rights?  YES OR NO?

You write: "Gee, I'm sure it takes a lot of effort to scan, copy and distribute the hard work and long hours of designing others have done. Hope you find some time to rest up."

Nice try yourself, Bob!  But - as in many of your other statements and assumptions - completely unfounded.  I have about 400 control line plans altogether.  Not ONE - nada - zero - zip - are offered as downloaded or scanned.  I've thought nothing of spending 8 hours or more to clean up a single plan.  I told Greg at the AMA Plans Service I have much cleaner versions of plans the service offers - corrected for scale, by the way - and plan to provide many of them to AMA.  It's called "a labor of love".  I have hundreds of messages from buyers who have been delighted to find (relatively clean) plans they didn't realize were available.

By the way, I've been in touch with Cal Smith's family - delighted to find his works are still popular.  I’ve forwarded meaningful pieces.  And I have permission - in writing - from many of the designers whose plans I offer.  And several messages from them too, expressing joy their designs are still offered.  I even offered to provide Riley Wooten with some of his plans when he stated his were all lost in the fire.  Perhaps too often egos prevent meaningful sharing.

While we're getting personal, a couple of statements: Golly gee whiz, those of us who regularly post here are not the center of the universe.  While some of us may think of ourselves as legends, most of the universe is completely oblivious.  Plan sales to even this large group are but a tiny portion of the interest in control line plans.  Case in point: I've sold at least 10 plans to an individual in North Carolina who lives not more than 20 minutes from where I lived for 3 years.  I've given him contact info for several individuals who would be delighted to hear from him, told him about the club and contests in Huntersville twice a year, and more - and he has NO INTEREST.  I also connected another buyer in that area with a club member, got them talking, and ... the buyer never showed up, never followed through.  This is very common.

You graced my email inbox some time back with one of your stories, Bob, perhaps the Cavalier.  I didn't request it.  Is reading everything you write required reading now?

I'm deeply offended by some of your remarks, and yes, Ken Culbertson, I'm serious with my offer - you imply anyone selling plans is getting rich, so come and get them!  I personally LOST money for several years and have the numbers to prove it.  You of all people here should understand that.  Any intelligent person looking at my resume would conclude I must be crazy to be involved in selling plans.

Speaking only for myself: I don't sell the offerings of Pat King, Pat Johnston, anything offered by PAMPA to the best of my knowledge (since it's so easy, Bob, how are PAMPA sales doing?).  I'll gladly refrain from selling anything a rights holder objects to.

And frankly, I think of my service as one of providing (relatively) clean, printed copies mailed in secure packaging.

Bob, I don’t believe anything I’ve written here suggests in any way, shape or form you’re responsible for the demise of Flying Models.  But you’re presenting us with the ‘moral high ground”, so to speak.  How about answering a very simple question - Exactly who is - to use your own words - “… [making] money on something that someone else labored to produce?”

Your friend wants to build a Cessna 170 from the old Berkeley plans; SIG won’t provide them.  Will you offer him a copy, or tell him “just forget it?”  It’s a simple question!  Which choice best promotes the hobby?

You copied pages from a copyrighted book, then had them enlarged.  Is that legal?  YES OR NO?

I’ll say another thing about too many in our hobby – “It’s all about me!”  I’m banned from a facebook Combat group by an administrator who was very angry that I used a photo published in a magazine; he wasn’t the photographer but seemed to think he owned it.  Strangely, he earlier used about 5 or 6 photos of mine in a PowerPoint presentation – which he would insist was copyrighted – without ever contacting me.  I didn’t mind; why would I?

And yes, I provided many plans of profile warbirds especially that were my designs - before the Midwest series came out – freely.  One of my combat designs was kitted on a limited scale some years ago without my prior knowledge or blessing.  I thought it was great!

Frankly, Bob and Ken, I respect your rights to your works.  But some of your comments here – and especially your assumptions – are things I might expect to hear from ignorant jackasses.  Yes - putting aside emotions and operating with intellectual integrity, you’re that far off!

Bob, you write: “Dennis: You and I will never see eye to eye on this matter. I wonder; have you ever had one of your designs published?  If so, did you receive compensation for the design by whomever published it?  And if so, would you feel comfortable with someone pirating your design and selling it for profit without your permission?  Perhaps your moral compass is different than mine and you would not care about any of that.  Each of us is different.”

Yes, I agree – we’re different.  What I’m hearing from you is concern for “compensation” and what I might call “pride.”  I’m motivated largely by a sense of helping others enjoy the hobby, and the many Thanks I receive.  You might enjoy a study of Spiritual Gifts.  I’ve known for many years what mine is - and it isn't about acquiring wealth.

Dennis

[Ken Culbertson]

Frankly, Bob and Ken, I respect your rights to your works.  But some of your comments here – and especially your assumptions – are things I might expect to hear from ignorant jackasses. 

Really...

[944_Jim]

Ok...so I'm a nobody in this hobby. I also love old plans, and hope to wallpaper my hobby closet (work room) with scans/prints of the old plans.
I have purchased old kits, Scientific for example, for the sake of enjoying the build, copying the plans and tracing the woods in case I, or someone else, want another swing at the kit. Occasionally I trade a scan made on the large format scanner at work.

I now suspect my Veco Tom Tom is owned by Dumas (seeing as they marketed Veco kits years ago).
I just assumed this was ok, since these aren't current production kits.
Now I feel guilty.

Since most of the "designers biographies" hosted by the AMA include kit names, I guess I have a way to check/ensure I'm not pirating for private consumption/trade. I would love to see an exhaustive list of public-domain plans.

Mr. Hunt, may I ask for a list of your plans, published or not. I want to ensure I know which ones are yours before I make a mistake. This all I can do from my position. No harm intended whatsoever.

Thank you.

Respectfully,

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Ok...so I'm a nobody in this hobby. I also love old plans, and hope to wallpaper my hobby closet (work room) with scans/prints of the old plans.
I have purchased old kits, Scientific for example, for the sake of enjoying the build, copying the plans and tracing the woods in case I, or someone else, want another swing at the kit. Occasionally I trade a scan made on the large format scanner at work.

I now suspect my Veco Tom Tom is owned by Dumas (seeing as they marketed Veco kits years ago).
I just assumed this was ok, since these aren't current production kits.
Now I feel guilty.

Since most of the "designers biographies" hosted by the AMA include kit names, I guess I have a way to check/ensure I'm not pirating for private consumption/trade. I would love to see an exhaustive list of public-domain plans.

Mr. Hunt, may I ask for a list of your plans, published or not. I want to ensure I know which ones are yours before I make a mistake. This all I can do from my position. No harm intended whatsoever.

Thank you.

Respectfully,

Jim, you bring up an interesting situation.  My understanding is that rights to the Veco kits (and plans) were sold to an individual several years ago - and I suspect some of the Dumas control line designs were included.  My good friend (the late) Bill Sawyer tried for a number of years to purchase those rights but found the owner had no interest in selling - and obviously no interest in continuing the product line.

So what are we to do?  Make a copy of an existing plan, or "just forget it?"  I'm still waiting for the lawyers here to answer that question.

And Thanks for the very nice compliment you paid my listings in another forum.  There too your post was quickly derided by the arm-chair experts who are absolutely certain plan sellers sit on their fat butts and watch the cash flow in ...

Dennis
 

[Bob Hunt]

Dennis and all:

Bill Morell asked that this discussion be taken to another thread, and I have decided to respect that request. I have my views on the subject, and a lot of support from those who think as I do on the subject. Conversely, Dennis has his views and most likely an equal amount of support from those who agree with his views. I've had my say, and this will be my last post here in respect for Bill's request.

Peace to all - Bob Hunt   

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Dennis and all:

Bill Morell asked that this discussion be taken to another thread, and I have decided to respect that request. I have my views on the subject, and a lot of support from those who think as I do on the subject. Conversely, Dennis has his views and most likely an equal amount of support from those who agree with his views. I've had my say, and this will be my last post here in respect for Bill's request.

Peace to all - Bob Hunt   

Bob Hunt, this whole discussion about "pirated" plans really deserves a separate thread. It's no wonder that Bob Mears responded as he did as it sounded personal.

Bob:

So be it.  I find it interesting (and telling?) that you refer to a discussion; I’ve answered your questions, but you’ve refused to answer several of mine.  Discussion?

I understand your frustration over what I perceive to be – in your eyes – a financial loss and a lack of respect.  You have a perfect right to feel that.  How you choose to deal with it is a matter of choice.  Your choice.  I suggest you start by contacting eBay with regard to the VERO Policy.  I’m in complete agreement with you with regard to limiting the distribution of the products of designers who so wish.

But contacting the heirs of every deceased designer?  Is the mission to promote the hobby, or to build an alternate Census Bureau?

And folks like you and Ken have no direct knowledge of the operations or costs of folks like me.  For an experienced accountant to even suggest folks like me are getting wealthy from the works of others is simply laughable!

I served in church leadership roles for many years and couldn’t begin to count the times walking out of board meetings, for example, when I was thanked by others for challenging a minister or someone else – it seems a good number of men can’t bring themselves to openly question leaders.  Blame it on my early wrestling experience; seems to me we all put our pants on one leg at a time.

In closing, I’ll never forget the column in which you related your “epiphany moment”.  You enjoyed motorcycles and enjoyed working on them too – but yes, even the guys who don’t do the mechanical work are bikers too!

It sure as hell took you a long time!  I argued many times in forums years before this one was created it would be foolish of us to look down on anyone who didn’t build AND fly their own planes; there’s too darn few of us as it is.  And the really ridiculous part of that belief system is some very good builders are afraid to fly their own airplanes!

Have a great day, all!

Dennis

PS: A friend years ago often reminded us: “Most of us are just doing the best we can to get through the day.”  It helps me to remember that …

[Bill Morell]

Dennis and all:

Bill Morell asked that this discussion be taken to another thread, and I have decided to respect that request. I have my views on the subject, and a lot of support from those who think as I do on the subject. Conversely, Dennis has his views and most likely an equal amount of support from those who agree with his views. I've had my say, and this will be my last post here in respect for Bill's request.

Peace to all - Bob Hunt   

Bob Hunt, I asked for you to start a new thread as this whole discussion has detracted from the original intent. Bob Mears was just announcing that the plans are now available for download for anyone that wants them. No financial gains sought after. In my opinion it was a very generous thing to do. I seriously doubt he ever thought it would escalate into this.

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Bob Hunt, I asked for you to start a new thread as this whole discussion has detracted from the original intent. Bob Mears was just announcing that the plans are now available for download for anyone that wants them. No financial gains sought after. In my opinion it was a very generous thing to do. I seriously doubt he ever thought it would escalate into this.

    And no good deed goes unpunished ...

Many of the plans offered were drawn by Barry Baxter, from whom Mears obtained the rights.  A bit of history: Baxter contacted me back in the '80s looking for plans when he started assembling his library.  He put tremendous effort into his offerings.  I think it's fantastic Mears shares at least those he owns the rights to.  Without a profit motive.

Imagine that.  He puts in time and effort to make them available without truckloads of cash coming in.  I'm sure at least one accountant here won't be able to handle that!

Dennis

[Warren Walker]

Bob I totally See Your Point, I'm behind you all the way.
Warren Walker.

P.S. I hope all is well with you and your family.

[Rusty]

Thank you Bob for posting the plans.  What you did helps keep the hobby alive.

I don't need the plans as I have about 300 which are some I collected and some my friends who died left me.  A good portion of the plans are unavailable because great planes bought the companies and stopped the kits and plans from distribution.   I cannot understand the thinking on this.  It seems to me to be mean spirited.  If the manufacturer or owner has no need for them any longer, why not release them and let people enjoy them.

In the 1990s I owned a hobby shop and sold Joe Bridi's kits after he sold out his original kit line to Great Planes.  He told me they would not release plans even on kits they never produced.   He expressed regret for allowing that to happen.  Joe wanted his planes to be built and let RC Modeler sell his plans.  He is a true legend and unselfish man.

I wish there was a way the people whose motives are solely to make money could take their plans to the grave with them.   That way they will be forgotten quicker. 

Every time I fly my scratch built Kaos I say hello to Joe.

[Brett Buck]

A good portion of the plans are unavailable because great planes bought the companies and stopped the kits and plans from distribution.   I cannot understand the thinking on this.  It seems to me to be mean spirited.  If the manufacturer or owner has no need for them any longer, why not release them and let people enjoy them.

  "Mean spirited"?  Aldrich told us that when Top Flite was sold, and Tower/Great Planes took over, they just trashed the place, and the original hand-inked plans for the Nobler were found in a pile of garbage on the floor. Tower/Great Planes went out of their way to undercut both hobby shops and distributors, primarily to shut them down, and arm-twist the manufacturers. The same plan as WalMart.  That was the cost of the $49 OS20FP (which would otherwise have cost $150).

   If you meant Bob Hunt - publishing and selling his IP *was his job*. He sold his work product to someone, and as noted above, they, or their successors, own the rights to publish it, period, no ifs ands or buts. If it was after 1989, there is not even a need to claim a copyright or maintain regustration - it is copyright to the author, no action required. HE assigned it to Carstens, they sold it and the person that bought it is, arguably, losing value due to illicit copying and selling.

     No doubt there is a benefit to the community to have these generally excellent designs available for cheap or free, and also no doubt that, given that people like Bob, Carstens publishing, etc, have failed to defend it - as is their right -  that any lawsuit over it may not be successful. In large part, because everyone else realizes that they end up with benefits beyond the value of a $5 plan sale.

    But don't for a second imagine that it anyone's "right" to just copy and sell it, or even give it away for free. Someone owns it, it is their intellectual property to do with as they please - sell plans, give them away, throw them in a shredder out of spite, or leave them in a garbage pile on the floor.   You sell *original* Ringmaster plans, or kit it, Centuri industries has a legitimate claim. Bob is not in any way wrong to point that out - and I note, depending on his deal with FM -  *he* might not own the rights to sell a lot of his plans, either.


    Despite general practice, IP is a legally-defined term, it is a real legal and civil entity, someone at some point *owns* rights to it, so merely going down to Kinko's (instead of buying another one) and making a copy of a plan is *technically* a violation. No one is likely to go to jail because there are positives and negatives to allowing it, and the value is probably not worth a half-hour of any copyright lawyers time.

   Bob or anyone else isn't asking for money or hauling anyone into court (for the FM plans - its not his anymore, either). But we shouldn't delude ourselves into imagining that stuff like this is just "out there" to be plucked, regardless of their motives (profit or service to the community).

     Brett

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Plans again ... In this very forum just two days ago Brent #1 asked for a Trophy Trainer plan and Brent #2 responded.  Needs met.  In 20+ years of frequenting forums I’ve probably seen that happen hundreds of times.

I believe it’s safe to assume in a number of cases a copy or copies of plans were exchanged without the approval of, or compensation to, the designer or his/her heirs.

Not once in those 20+ years have I seen objections.  Can someone correct me?

Bob, Brett, Curare, fred, goozgog, Ken, pat, Warren - can you show us where you objected to any of those exchanges?  Integrity and moral values are best demonstrated by consistency ...
 
(FWIW: I had a (purchased) Trophy Trainer plan, could easily have scanned it and sold copies, but instead respected PAMPA’s rights.  Profit be damned!)

Dennis

[Rusty]

Brett, I agree with what you said.   

I agree that people are entitled to get paid for their work.   However, I think that when the owner no longer is receiving income from the work product or is perhaps leaving this earth, they should consider releasing it to the public.  Those thoughts apply to plans and instructions on how experts reworked model engines. 

I, also, agree with what you said about Great Planes.  Joe said they only wanted a few of his designs to manufacture, but wanted the rights to ALL his designs so they were not competing with GP's offerings. 

I guess what I am saying is that philanthropy should be considered when the gain from the work product has expired for whatever reason.  As mentioned in this thread there a many people who did just that.  To those, I stand at attention and give them a crisp salute. 

Rusty

 

[Brett Buck]

I agree that people are entitled to get paid for their work.   However, I think that when the owner no longer is receiving income from the work product or is perhaps leaving this earth, they should consider releasing it to the public.  Those thoughts apply to plans and instructions on how experts reworked model engines. 

   It would certainly be nice if people did that. But, it is a decision they can make, and if they choose otherwise, then they own the rights, they can do as they please, even if it means they keep it to themselves due to disinterest, or even just to spite everyone.

I guess what I am saying is that philanthropy should be considered when the gain from the work product has expired for whatever reason.  As mentioned in this thread there a many people who did just that.  To those, I stand at attention and give them a crisp salute. 

   If the copyright has expired, it is indeed "public domain" and anyone can do anything they want with it. Generally, that means life of he author + *70 years*. This is of course an absurd duration, a carveout to make sure Steamboat Willie stays protected. I think that almost no model airplane product has entered public domain. If the author is dead, then it goes to the estate

   Again, if someone owning IP permits, it that is indeed great. What Bob was concerned about was "involuntary philanthropy", which, unpleasant or not, has a legal definition. Pointing that out is not "mean spirited", and it is not at all surprising that professional author and magazine editor might have a strong opinion on the topic.

   Brett

 p.s. there are reasons aside from money to retain rights or withhold rights. I haven't sold any of my rights to anything I have done, I retain rights to everything I ever did in model airplanes. I have granted permission to use/copy two of my designs to 3 individuals. Unfortunately, in several of those cases, the projects "got away from me" and reflected poorly on me and the product and caused people serious issues, and additionally, it multiplied beyond my permission somehow. What I don't want to happen is for something I am associated with cause problems for someone else, or create issues for me - like someone building an "Infinity" using a Trivial Pursuit wing and a flat stab (with workmanship I would have been embarrassed about when I was , then complaining to me and a whole bunch of other people  that the "design was no good". That's why I have not published very much and would be very hesistant to actually sell the rights for a magazine publication, and why I  direct my efforts to advice and other items here, RCO, SSW, Compuserve, AOL, Iskanders board, etc, that are definitely public domain,

[PerttiMe]

...
The old saying is true- "The way to make a Million Dollars in the Control Line airplane business is to start with two Million!"

Pat

I'm wondering:
Is anybody actually earning money from selling Control Line plans?

[Rusty]

I'm wondering:
Is anybody actually earning money from selling Control Line plans?

Actually, yes,  there is over 3,500 plans listings on ebay. 

[Rusty]

Brett I have seen many times people complain a plane was no good when it wasn't built right, like cg off or warped wing, etc.   The same goes for engines that had tank issues, bad fuel, bad glow plug or not adjusted right.   One of the biggest ones is people moving a ST spray bar off center in the rc engine.   

I fully understand your feelings. 

[PerttiMe]

Actually, yes,  there is over 3,500 plans listings on ebay. 

Are they selling any?
Is anybody selling any plans?

[944_Jim]

Third time (first and third publicly, once via email/PM) I'm trying to respect Mr. Hunt's copyrights. But in order to respect them, I need to know which ones are his:

Mr. Hunt, may I ask for a list of your plans, published or not. I want to ensure I know which ones are yours before I make a mistake. This all I can do from my position. No harm intended whatsoever.

Thank you.

Respectfully,

[Dan McEntee]

Are they selling any?
Is anybody selling any plans?

   Well. if you were to go search eBay, I'm sure out of 3500 listings you would be able to find something to buy! That is what they are there for!! If you can't find any plans to buy then you aren't trying very hard.
 
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Brett Buck]

   Well. if you were to go search eBay, I'm sure out of 3500 listings you would be able to find something to buy! That is what they are there for!! If you can't find any plans to buy then you aren't trying very hard.

    Forgive me for interpreting, but I think he is commenting/asking about how much money is there to be made on selling plans. My guess -  a pittance.

     Brett

[Pacific Sun]

Very interesting topic.
The problem for many of us (at least for me) is that we are surprised by the spectacular speed that the internet has brought to the access and exchange of information. How far away are those times when I bought an Enya from a store in Miami, on my first trip to the USA and all communications, payments, etc. were by fax!!! (write it, print it, send it, spend days to receive answer, etc etc)
For a long time I have participated in chat and forums of modeling, electronics, crafts, hobbies, etc and I have found a lot of information and good people to share it. So, in return and as a way to thank you, I have published a lot of original information of mine: tutorials, works, ideas, tricks, etc.
Surprisingly I have found some time later how those works made freely available to everyone were for sale compiled in a CD/DVD along with others that I already knew and also free access. Unbelievable. As we say in my country "you can't put gates to the field or fences to the sea".
I don't know if you know, I have started a topic in the forum about starting to build a Mustunt IV, and reading this topic raises several doubts in my mind.
The Mustunt IV plan is easy to find for free on the internet, so am I doing something illegal?
I want to make the laser cut parts, so the first thing to do is to digitize to CAD files the whole drawing. If it can not be reproduced, then redoing those parts is illegal?
The plan is to make an airplane for me, it has no commercial use, I am not going to sell airplanes, nor am I going to sell the CAD files with the parts, etc. so what I am doing is legal?
If I offer in a free and disinterested way, for the own promotion of our hobby, that CAD work already done, is this distribution illegal?
If I would like to build an airplane of which I can only find a free downloadable drawing, then I cannot and it is illegal to build that airplane?
etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc.
I absolutely agree with Mr.Hunt about his opinions, that is so, and I think what bothers him the most is that it is taken for granted that everything is free, since there is not or is complicated an economic compensation at least that there is a little respect for the creator of that intellectual property. On the other heand, I have purchased model plans that later turned out to be a copy of others.
That leads me to ask if I have done well in sharing with you my work about Mustunt IV. If it is not correct or if it bothers anyone please tell me and I will close the topic.
In my country and in general the situation in the CL world is as follows:
Less and less fans (and we are already old, there are very very few young people), less and less places to fly (problem of aeromodelling in general), there are no kits, there are no engines (only old models or competition), it starts to be difficult to find material and accessories, there is no balsa, Nitro is almost impossible to buy because the explosive legislation is now applied in short, etc, etc, the feeling is that this is dying little by little. I see it in my children: cell phones, internet and videogames have killed all the hobbies.
I tnink there is not an easy solution.
The creator must be rewarded for his work, copy or distribute it for free without his permission is to steal his intellectual property, but on the other hand it is impossible to get that at 100 and sincerely I think there are things that by their nature or after a time should be accessible universal and free. I don't know if modeling plans is one of them.
I sincerely believe that Mr. Rabe will be super proud when he sees another of his "children" flying and if you share my work from Mustunt IV pieces, get someone to be encouraged to build it, I will give my time and my effort to help promote well used to promote this hobby
Mr. Rabe, Mr. Hunt, etc etc etc. A million thanks for their ideas, their designs that remain in time (then build a Genesis, maybe?)

And I repeat, if my topic about the M IV is a mistake, please tell me and I will correct it right away.

Greetings to all,

Pacific Sun

[Rusty]

   Well. if you were to go search eBay, I'm sure out of 3500 listings you would be able to find something to buy! That is what they are there for!! If you can't find any plans to buy then you aren't trying very hard.

 
 
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

 

[Rusty]

Third time (first and third publicly, once via email/PM) I'm trying to respect Mr. Hunt's copyrights. But in order to respect them, I need to know which ones are his:

Mr. Hunt, may I ask for a list of your plans, published or not. I want to ensure I know which ones are yours before I make a mistake. This all I can do from my position. No harm intended whatsoever.

Thank you.

Respectfully,

Maybe there is a list of his plans in Joe Biden's garage next to his corvette. 

[Dan McEntee]

    Forgive me for interpreting, but I think he is commenting/asking about how much money is there to be made on selling plans. My guess -  a pittance.

     Brett

   Well, I'm no marketing manager, but if they were not selling any to make it worth while, they would not be listed, no??  It's like used cars. If I have a lot full of them, and advertising them, I must be selling them. I have bought plans from some of the bigger or better eBay plans vendors, and mainly I am looking for original plans from the magazines to collect. Been doing that a long time, and if you watch it enough you can get them cheap. It's my guess that most do it as a hobby, not for a living, or more a labor of love to provide for those that appreciate them and want to preserve them. I would say that a high percentage of them are not anywhere near the scale of what the AMA plans service or Flying Models is, with a room full of master, a computer full of files, and big rolls of paper ready to go into the printing machine.. Most of them are selling plans second hand, picked up from estates and such, so in my mind, copyrights and such have no bearing on these sales. It has some bearing in perception. It's just second hand junk to most people, but people will try to sell anything to anybody to make something on it, even if it's just a buck!  However, enough of it goes on that the Democrats decided that they wanted in on the deal and instituted the $600 law!! Some one in congress perceives that there are a lot of ripe plumbs out there to pick but they have no perception of what it would take to actually realize that. So, is anyone "making money" at it??> Depends on how you perceive it!!
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[PerttiMe]

   Well. if you were to go search eBay, I'm sure out of 3500 listings you would be able to find something to buy! That is what they are there for!! If you can't find any plans to buy then you aren't trying very hard.
 
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

I'm not questioning the fact that people have posted plans for sale.

[Gerald Arana]

Maybe there is a list of his plans in Joe Biden's garage next to his corvette.

  Good one!

Jerry

[Mike Griffin]

Maybe there is a list of his plans in Joe Biden's garage next to his corvette.

Best post yet. 

[Ken Culbertson]

 

Best post yet. 

So that is where the Chineese got all their ARF plans