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Author Topic: Plane doing something strange in hour glass  (Read 12441 times)

Offline Paul Taylor

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Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« on: July 02, 2016, 08:31:46 PM »
Need a little trim help.
Was doing some trim flights today on a new plane.

I tried this three time and same thing.

First turn of the hour glass and a few feet into the up leg the plane seems to roll in and the lines get soft. Right after the turn. I have never experienced this on any other plane. Doing a little research I saw a thread that talked about "hinging" after a hard turn. Could this be what my plane is doing?
The thread spoke of the Fix might be too much tip weight or maybe move the lead outs. (What direction?)

It has .7oz of tip weight now.

Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Paul
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #1 on: July 02, 2016, 11:53:28 PM »
A little more information please!

What kind of plane is it (how big), and what is the powerplant, and what are your lap times and line length.

Does it also do this in the first corner of the inside square loop?

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #2 on: July 02, 2016, 11:55:56 PM »
Need a little trim help.
Was doing some trim flights today on a new plane.

I tried this three time and same thing.

First turn of the hour glass and a few feet into the up leg the plane seems to roll in and the lines get soft. Right after the turn. I have never experienced this on any other plane. Doing a little research I saw a thread that talked about "hinging" after a hard turn. Could this be what my plane is doing?
The thread spoke of the Fix might be too much tip weight or maybe move the lead outs. (What direction?)

      Just to clarify, you see the *top* of the airplane during/just after the turn?

     Brett

Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #3 on: July 03, 2016, 08:23:27 AM »
It's the bottom of the plane. When it does it I bail to inverted flight.

Plane is a Vector 40. PA 40 UL on a pipe on 60ft lines. Running a 5.5 lap time. I did notice a little lightness on the lines in the top of the out sides around the 2 o'clock position. And now that you mention it I think it did it in the first turn of the inside squares.  It made me thing to take it easy on the triangle and I flew a real odd egg shape so did not see it there.

I really banged the first turn of the hour glass and that is where it really showed it.

Thanks
Paul
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Offline Dave_Trible

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #4 on: July 03, 2016, 08:50:24 AM »
Paul my first response is to say it's flap asymmetry.  The inboard flap is overpowering the outboard.  Try adding some area to the outboard flap.  A narrow strip, say 3/32 to 1/8" full span stuck on the flap trailing edge or a tab about 3/4" x 4" put on as far out as you can will move you in the right direction.  
Also if the leadouts were really too far back you might see this because the inboard wing is leading the outboard and will kick the leading wing hard when the flaps are deployed.  

Dave
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 09:10:36 AM by Dave_Trible »
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #5 on: July 03, 2016, 10:03:51 AM »
It's the bottom of the plane. When it does it I bail to inverted flight.

Plane is a Vector 40. PA 40 UL on a pipe on 60ft lines. Running a 5.5 lap time. I did notice a little lightness on the lines in the top of the out sides around the 2 o'clock position. And now that you mention it I think it did it in the first turn of the inside squares.  It made me thing to take it easy on the triangle and I flew a real odd egg shape so did not see it there.

I really banged the first turn of the hour glass and that is where it really showed it.

Thanks
Paul

    If you are seeing the bottom of the airplane first, it's rolling out, and not in. The hard control during the input probably makes the lines act like a spring and pulls the model in as a secondary action, and that is when the line tension gets soft? As to a cause, Dave is probably correct on the flap issue and line rake. Don't think I have ever seen or experienced anything like this. I have had my Primary Force do funny stuff a couple of times at the top of the hour glass on the third corner but not since I have put the current power plant on it. That might have been caused by forces that led Al Rabe to invent his rudder system for that very turn of the hour glass. Wish I could be more help but I would have to see the model in flight to guess any more. I would think that if it was a really chronic problem, you would see it in the first pull up for the wing over and any inside square maneuver, as has already been mentioned. Keep us posted on further findings and fixes.
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #6 on: July 03, 2016, 11:38:00 AM »
I agree pretty much with everything that's been said.  I especially agree with Dave that it sounds like flap asemmetry.  Outboard flap needs a tab.  I would mention that 5.5 second laps is pretty slow if you're on 60 ft lines.  something closer to 5 seconds would be more appropriate.
Lines being too far aft would accentuate that problem.
I would do whatever it takes to get the flap areas equal and set the lines at about 1/4 inch behind the CG, and speed up the airplane a bit to about 5.1 second laps.  The greater speed will make trimming a bit easier also because the reactions will not be quite so violent. Part of what's happening could be the beginning of a stall because the slow speed plus violent corner can create an accelerated stall condition on the outboard wing.

Wish I could see the airplane fly.  Trimming by remote location is frustrating!  y1

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Offline Trostle

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #7 on: July 03, 2016, 11:53:10 AM »
I am looking forward to see what Brett has to say.  And Randy is on the right track also.  There could be a combination of things that are showing the plane is out of trim.

Are your wings level during normal level flight.  There could be an imbalance between the tip weight and a slight wing warp or slight flap misalignment (it does not take much to screw things up).  First, 3/4 oz tip weight might not be enough.  Yes, you might have 3/4 oz out there, but does it take 3/4 oz of weight on the inboard tip to balance the wings?  If there is a slight amount of washin at the outboard tip, (outboard tip TE lower than the inboard tip TE), that outboard tip will tend to lift more in that first turn of your hourglass, causing loss of tension.

One thing to check - do you have equal tension when doing inside loop and outside loops.  If not, then there is a combination wrong tip weight, wrong leadout position and/or assymetric TE between the left and right wing panels.

Also, it would be interesting to know if you have good line tension on the first outside corner of your square loops.  That is a place where one expects to loose line tension because of gyroscopic precession.  If you experience little or no change in line tension after that first outside corner, then I would suspect that the outboard tip TE is lower than the inboard tip which does not help you on the first turn of your hourglass.  You can adjust by tweaking the flaps or even twist the wing using a heat gun.  (Some use hot towels, but the heat gun is easier to control in that process.)

(my 2 cents)

Keith

Offline EddyR

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #8 on: July 03, 2016, 01:49:02 PM »
Vector ARF has equal wing span and needs lot of tip weight. Vector kit has 3/4 -1" offset and does not need as much.
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Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #9 on: July 03, 2016, 02:11:57 PM »
Thanks guys. Good info.

I have some things to try now.

It is a kit. I did change the wing tips a little.

Will keep you posted.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2016, 07:26:44 PM by ROOTBEARD »
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #10 on: July 03, 2016, 02:51:36 PM »
The Vector is a name-brand stunter, so I wouldn't expect sufficiently blatant flap asymmetry to cause these troubles. Are your flaps sealed?
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Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #11 on: July 03, 2016, 02:58:12 PM »
The Vector is a name-brand stunter, so I wouldn't expect sufficiently blatant flap asymmetry to cause these troubles. Are your flaps sealed?

Thanks Howard.
No the flaps are not sealed. And not a tight fit either.
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Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #12 on: July 03, 2016, 03:20:09 PM »
moved your leadouts forward - on all my vectors I had the leadouts as far as possible forward.  if they were back - the plane hinged much like you are experiencing
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #13 on: July 03, 2016, 05:08:03 PM »
Thanks Howard.
No the flaps are not sealed. And not a tight fit either.

Seal the flaps!  "Not a tight fit" may actually help suppress the weirdness from unsealed flaps, but try them sealed anyway.
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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #14 on: July 03, 2016, 05:46:10 PM »
Lines are too short, lap time is too slow, and I'm wondering if the elevators are aligned to each other. Seal both flaps and elevator hingelines. What's the prop and launch rpm?  ??? Steve
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2016, 11:05:11 PM »
It's the bottom of the plane. When it does it I bail to inverted flight.

Plane is a Vector 40. PA 40 UL on a pipe on 60ft lines. Running a 5.5 lap time. I did notice a little lightness on the lines in the top of the out sides around the 2 o'clock position. And now that you mention it I think it did it in the first turn of the inside squares.  It made me thing to take it easy on the triangle and I flew a real odd egg shape so did not see it there.

I really banged the first turn of the hour glass and that is where it really showed it.

   Off-hand is seems a bit slow, but that will likely just make the problem easier to see, not cause it.

    Obviously I think you should seal the hinge lines, but that may not solve the problem. What you seem to be describing is line whip, and you are seeing the second motion it takes after the corner. I think it is probably yawing nose-out due to the leadouts being set too far aft,  and rolling inboard in the corner from inadequate tipweight,  then after you straighten out, it yaws nose in and rolls out as the lines whip back in reaction to the corner. Carefully check what the yaw angle does during the corner, I suspect it will yaw out dramatically first, then back in at the time you noted. It may or may not roll in, because the yaw reaction will tend to obscure the lack of tip weight.

    I suggest this. Observe the roll angle through the intersections of the round 8s (horizontal, vertical, and overhead). See which way it rolls through when you switch from inside to outside and outside to inside. Set the tipweight to minimize the roll change through the intersection. I would start adding it until was obviously rolling away from you in both loops (see the bottom on the insides and top on the outsides), then back off, so you know for sure that you have too much, then you can take it out in small bits (1/8 ounce at a time) until you get a minimum roll change through the intersection.

    Then check the yaw angle in the corners. I expect you will see drastic outboard yaw on insides and almost nothing on outsides, or at least a lot less outboard yaw. Start moving the leadouts forward 1/8" at a time until the yaw reaction in the corners is minimized. As you do this, keep checking the roll angle change through the round intersections. I bet you will need to keep adding tip weight at you move the leadouts forward. At some point you will get a minimum reaction in roll AND minimum reaction in yaw. Assuming you have the rudder straight ahead, this will be the best you can do. Then you can adjust slightly around there and see if there is any improvement.

     If you have rudder offset or rudder airfoil, your minimum yaw reaction will still be pretty large. At which point you should go put it dead straight ahead and adjustable (cut it off and refinish of necessary), put the leadouts where LINEII tells you to, and then do the same thing except changing the leadouts, you adjust the rudder in *tiny* increments to do the same thing.

     I am not entirely sure that I understand the issue correctly from your description, but you are likely to get pretty close to right following the above procedure even if it's some other issue. It's more-or-less consistent with the Paul Walker flowchart and the "Functions of trim adjustments" thing I wrote. In any case, it does require careful observation of the roll and yaw angle while you are flying, which seems to be an ability that varies wildly from individual to individual. IF you need more experienced help, then it is always worth seeking it out.

    Brett

« Last Edit: July 04, 2016, 05:35:11 PM by Brett Buck »

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2016, 09:00:27 AM »
   Paul,  check your tail weight &   CG..
  John

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2016, 09:03:52 AM »
   Paul.
  Also  5.5 second lap times on 60 foot lines isnt exactly ripping through the air   maybe fly faster.

Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #18 on: July 04, 2016, 05:05:33 PM »
Thanks guys for the feed back.
I down loaded Bob's program and ran the numbers. I moved the leadouts about 3/4 of an inch forward.

I had .7 oz of tip weight and pulled out .5. Thinking about adding it back.

Thoughts?
Paul
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #19 on: July 04, 2016, 05:29:43 PM »
Thanks guys for the feed back.
I down loaded Bob's program and ran the numbers. I moved the leadouts about 3/4 of an inch forward.

I had .7 oz of tip weight and pulled out .5. Thinking about adding it back.

Thoughts?

Less than a quarter of an ounce of tip weight sounds too light -- and while too much tip weight is a little bit bad, too little tip weight is a disaster.

Put it back, then do what Brett said about flying and taking out tip weight as you go.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #20 on: July 04, 2016, 05:30:59 PM »
Thanks guys for the feed back.
I down loaded Bob's program and ran the numbers. I moved the leadouts about 3/4 of an inch forward.

I had .7 oz of tip weight and pulled out .5. Thinking about adding it back.

Thoughts?

  PUT IT BACK!  My theory suggests that it might be inadequate already, and you are making it through only because you are yawing the nose out in hard corners. If you remove the outboard yaw, then you will need adequate tipweight. Note also that the outboard yaw would normally cause a roll in the direction you would expect for excess tip weight, so the yaw effect may be fooling you into removing tip weight.

   You many need to remove some later, but wait until you see what happens with your other huge adjustment.

    As a check on your LINEIII math, I would expect the centerline of your leadouts to be about 3/4" or so behind the CG.

    BTW, just talking about how much tip weight really doesn't tell us much. What would tell us something is if you note how much weight it takes on the inboard tip to counterbalance what you already have. Balance the plane in roll with temporary weight on the inboard tip and whatever you have in the outboard tip, then you know how much effective tip weight you have. It might be way off from the actual amount you entered because of variations in the wood weight and finish weight you may have built in, and the intentional asymmetry (like longer inboard wing, and the leadouts and leadout guide).

   Brett

Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #21 on: July 04, 2016, 08:13:48 PM »
10-4.
Adding the weight back.
I hope to test it this week if the weather allows. T-Storms predicted most of the week.

Line III put it .5534 behind the CG.
500 wing area
46.5 span.
Wing tips are smaller. Shaped like a Mustang and tapers back.

I will try and see if I can tell you more about the tip weight. Stay tuned.

And thanks a bunch!!!
Paul
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Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2016, 08:38:38 PM »
Ok went and put the .5 back in.
The added weight to the inboard to balance it out.
It took 1/4 oz to level it out.



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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #23 on: July 04, 2016, 08:46:23 PM »
Ok went and put the .5 back in.
The added weight to the inboard to balance it out.
It took 1/4 oz to level it out.

   Ah, so you really have 1/4 ounce of tip weight. Assuming you have 3/4" asymmetry, add another .5 ounces to the outboard tip. If it is equal span,  add 1.5 ounces.

     Brett

Offline M Spencer

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #24 on: July 04, 2016, 09:24:38 PM »
If you have a 5 ton stock R.C. muffler hanging of the inboard side at the front , particully a blunt front one , It could cause that sort of bother .
If its accerating out of the corner , the mass inboard can retard that sides progress . Plus its inboard weight - why it noses in crabwise .

Had a blunt muufler inboard thatd votice the inner wing thru stab , starting a yaw , downhill in hourglass & wingover ( nowhere else ) .
No Muffler or muffler Outboard , it didnt happen .

Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #25 on: July 04, 2016, 09:34:21 PM »
Brett- 1/2 in difference. So would that be 1oz?


@Matt - PA 40 on a pipe. No honking tube muffler hanging off the nose.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #26 on: July 04, 2016, 10:28:10 PM »
Brett- 1/2 in difference. So would that be 1oz?


@Matt - PA 40 on a pipe. No honking tube muffler hanging off the nose.

  1/2 ounce more than it had when you counterbalanced it with 1/4 ounce. Shoot for a weight that will require a counterbalance of 3/4 ounce.

    Brett

Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2016, 07:02:16 AM »
Gotcha. Will set it up tonight when I get home.

Stay tuned.
Paul
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Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #28 on: July 05, 2016, 02:47:06 PM »
Ok. 1/2 oz added.
3/4 oz to balance it out.
Now we are in a holding pattern waiting on the weather.

Thanks guys for the help.
Paul
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #29 on: July 05, 2016, 06:31:54 PM »
Ok went and put the .5 back in.
The added weight to the inboard to balance it out.
It took 1/4 oz to level it out.

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Why?  I don't understand this move at all.

Just use outboard TW only.  Add and subtract as needed. 
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #30 on: July 05, 2016, 07:17:28 PM »
Why?  I don't understand this move at all.

Just use outboard TW only.  Add and subtract as needed. 

Better Duck, Doug!  Brett'll come and get ya!

This is the means whereby Brett determines what the real amount of wing weight is as opposed to saying "I put in one oz of tip weight" (which means nothing in and of itself with respect to roll issues.)  No matter how much lead is in the outboard weight box, the important number is the weight difference between the panels.  He starts the process by stacking (not adhering) weight to the inboard wing at the same location as the tip weight receptacle in the outboard wing until the wings are "balanced." The non-adhering inboard weight has now done its job and is put back in the tool box.  Subsequent guestimates on tip weight adjustments are then based in part on the wing asymmetry...or lack thereof...and the existing weight as determined by the test.


(Worth noting is that with a substantial wing asymmetry (All American, Sr and its ilk) it is entirely possible that a too much longer inboard wing may be "heavier" than the outboard...and may have to be in order to solve wing roll issues, with excessive asymmetry the fix to the issue at hand could even end up being adding board tip weight!) 

Good luck at the Nats.

Ted

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #31 on: July 05, 2016, 07:49:11 PM »
Why?  I don't understand this move at all.

Just use outboard TW only.  Add and subtract as needed. 

    The weight on the inboard is temporary, just stacked on there,  just to see how far out of balance the rest of the airplane might be. More-or-less, he is determining the lateral balance of the airplane. He had added 3/4 ounce to the outboard tip but because the inboard wing (and leadouts, and whatever), the inboard was heavier, so he effectively only had 1/4 ounce. Once you do the measurement, you just remove the inboard weight. You don't fly the airplane with the inboard weights.

   This is the only reliable way of determining where the lateral CG might be and only way to realistically compare tip weight from airplane to airplane.

     Brett

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2016, 01:19:31 PM »
Better Duck, Doug!  Brett'll come and get ya!

This is the means whereby Brett determines what the real amount of wing weight is as opposed to saying "I put in one oz of tip weight" (which means nothing in and of itself with respect to roll issues.)  No matter how much lead is in the outboard weight box, the important number is the weight difference between the panels.  He starts the process by stacking (not adhering) weight to the inboard wing at the same location as the tip weight receptacle in the outboard wing until the wings are "balanced." The non-adhering inboard weight has now done its job and is put back in the tool box.  Subsequent guestimates on tip weight adjustments are then based in part on the wing asymmetry...or lack thereof...and the existing weight as determined by the test.

Good luck at the Nats.

Ted

Aha,,,,,  I see. All the while I am reading this it is making sense,,,but,,,I am thinking that knowing what the difference is doesn't really do anything you still have to add and subtract TW until it flys right for said setup.  Then I read BBs post about comparing models using this method and it comes full circle.

I have been following this thread so I can see what the answer is...  At first glance I think its a combination of lack of speed and incorrect TW and line position.  With speed being a large factor.  60' at 5.5 is really slow, it wouldn't take much to throw the model around at that slow of a speed.  But that is just my thoughts...  I could be wrong, I usually am, just ask my wife.

Doug Moon
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2016, 03:49:25 PM »
Aha,,,,,  I see. All the while I am reading this it is making sense,,,but,,,I am thinking that knowing what the difference is doesn't really do anything you still have to add and subtract TW until it flys right for said setup.  Then I read BBs post about comparing models using this method and it comes full circle.

I have been following this thread so I can see what the answer is...  At first glance I think its a combination of lack of speed and incorrect TW and line position.  With speed being a large factor.  60' at 5.5 is really slow, it wouldn't take much to throw the model around at that slow of a speed.  But that is just my thoughts...  I could be wrong, I usually am, just ask my wife.



Hmmmmm I think that's what I said a couple of days ago...but then since I've never won the Nationals (and never will) no one listens!

Guess I'll just ignore questions in the future, and go trim some airplanes and practice!  <= <= HB~>

Phhtttttttttttt...

Randy Cuberly
Don't mind me,.. just in a crappy mood!


Randy Cuberly
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Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2016, 01:16:56 PM »
snip

snip

With speed being a large factor.  60' at 5.5 is really slow, it wouldn't take much to throw the model around at that slow of a speed.  But that is just my thoughts...  I could be wrong, I usually am, just ask my wife.


I totally agree with that, Doug.  One of the problems of stunt guys talking on line (to the world) is that a tyro can pick up a single item (such as 5.5 laps) and make it some sort of miracle road to success.  As in this case, that is seldom (if ever) the case.  The variables are stratospheric and solving as many as possible is the only road to the big bowling trophies...as you well know!  The interactions between this "magic" secret and the next simply overwhelm the novice.  It's why stuff even as dated as Wild Bills "....painless" series are still valuable tools.

Forums like Sparky's are great resources for guys (guys in the gender neutral all inclusive sense, of course) looking for answers but this is definitely a weak spot that can put the breaks on their progress very quickly.  Wish I had an answer.

Ted

p.s.  We should get Howard to write the ultimate stunt text.  Trouble is we'd end up with a flying field full of nothing but Impacts in a variety of colors...sort of like a bowl of Jelly Beans. <= <=

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2016, 02:08:55 PM »
Orange you call a variety?
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2016, 09:11:26 PM »
Hmmmmm I think that's what I said a couple of days ago...but then since I've never won the Nationals (and never will) no one listens!

Guess I'll just ignore questions in the future, and go trim some airplanes and practice!  <= <= HB~>

Phhtttttttttttt...

Randy Cuberly
Don't mind me,.. just in a crappy mood!




Yes I read where you said you thought it was slow and I was agreeing with you when I read it...
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Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass - Update
« Reply #37 on: July 24, 2016, 09:14:27 PM »
Here is an update.
After making the changes things seem a little better but the issue in still there after the turn on the up leg of the hour glass.
I am now going to remove the pipe and try a header muffler. My flying friends are thinking the vertical CG so will give it a try.
The red line is where the plane seems to want seem to bobble.
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass - Update
« Reply #38 on: July 24, 2016, 09:37:02 PM »
Here is an update.
After making the changes things seem a little better but the issue in still there after the turn on the up leg of the hour glass.
I am now going to remove the pipe and try a header muffler. My flying friends are thinking the vertical CG so will give it a try.
The red line is where the plane seems to want seem to bobble.

   It is not a vertical CG issue, and even if it was, you are far better off with a vertical CG issue and good power control than less power control. I have managed to get through 40+ years of model airplane flying without considering the vertical CG in any significant way.

   Did you go through the sequence I suggested above? It may take a dozen flights or more with small one-at-a-time changes. If the changes did not result in the effects described, there may be some other issue (like tail tilt or skew).

   Brett

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #39 on: July 24, 2016, 09:44:53 PM »
Orange you call a variety?

Good point, Howard.  Technically orange is a varietal, thus the confusion.

Ted

Offline Ted Fancher

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #40 on: July 24, 2016, 10:39:17 PM »
It occurs to me after reading about 2.6K "what's wrong with my trim" threads that what we really need is a data table for inquirers to fill out with measurable and/or observable criteria related to flight performance, i.e.: Model design if a common type, (if an original design: wing area and aspect ratio, tail area as a percentage of wing area) weight, engine, prop, line length, lap times, CG location as %MAC (avg chord would suffice), lead out exit reference longitudinal CG, Honest pilot/builder experience/skill level; observed flight attitude upright and inverted (OB wing up/down, body attitude in level flight (nose up/down),  how much of the outboard wheel is visible behind the inboard wheel in level flight...Oh, dear, I'm just getting started!

 I could go on and on but, without these and other important parts of the puzzle, a tyro pilot is always going to get a variety of well meaning suggestions...many of which might not be appropriate if all the facts were known.  Way to many of us tend to evaluate other pilot's trim problems based on "similar" flight responses we have experienced ourselves...the cause of which may or may not be germane to the questioner's issues.  Easy to say but not so easy to come up with a way to be more creatively accurate in our attempts to help.

I think many of us are capable of providing excellent support for other fliers issues but, without a pretty comprehensive cataloging  of configuration and assorted other performance variables the questioner is more likely than not going to have to flip a coin as to which of many suggestions to try next.  Each time the coin fails to match the solution the result will be more rather than less frustration.

Maybe some more input on what such a "How can I fix my XXXX problem" question format should include.

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass - Update
« Reply #41 on: July 24, 2016, 11:05:58 PM »
Here is an update.
After making the changes things seem a little better but the issue in still there after the turn on the up leg of the hour glass.
I am now going to remove the pipe and try a header muffler. My flying friends are thinking the vertical CG so will give it a try.
The red line is where the plane seems to want seem to bobble.

We need to know what changes you made.

Did you get it going fast enough first?  If you make alot of trim changes with it going too slow and then finally speed it up you will have to go through it all over again.  Get your speed more like 5.0-5.1 for your line length then trim it out. Just a suggestion.
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #42 on: July 24, 2016, 11:32:02 PM »


Maybe some more input
^^ yepper,, that right there^^^^
Out of Respect , Ted commented he felt his post was out of place and I had quoted it, so I am withdrawying it well except for that one comment,
« Last Edit: July 25, 2016, 09:18:27 PM by Mark Scarborough »
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Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #43 on: July 25, 2016, 01:55:00 PM »
Thanks guys for the help.

Yes I made the suggest changes above.
I went to shorter lines and got the lap times up. Line tension is good. I added the tip weight and moved the L/O forward 3/8 of an inch and sealed the hinge lines on both flaps and stab. It seems to turn good in both directions. Wings still level. This is a Vector 40 with the tips tapered a little different, but all it all it's a Vector 40. It is powered with a PA 40 UL on a pipe. 11.5x3.75 Bolly. Launching between 10900 and 11200 RPM.
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Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #44 on: July 25, 2016, 02:14:35 PM »
Do you know how fast it is going now?

Is there anywhere else in the pattern that is giving you odd behavior? If so what? 
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Offline dale gleason

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #45 on: July 25, 2016, 02:39:07 PM »
I can't tell from the picture, but, are the elev and flap hinge lines parallel?

dg

Offline Paul Taylor

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #46 on: July 25, 2016, 03:33:41 PM »
Lap time is 5.5.

Ole Dad will double check but will check the lines.
Paul
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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #47 on: July 25, 2016, 04:51:39 PM »
Lap time is 5.5.

Ole Dad will double check but will check the lines.
lap times of 5.5 on less than 60 foot lines? that seems very slow to me, it could be stalling, does it do the same thing in the triangle?
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Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #48 on: July 25, 2016, 05:18:36 PM »
Something just ain't right, as they say.  I would think that launch RPM and that prop should net you less than 5.0 lap time.  Check the pitch especially at the tips.
Mike

Offline Doug Moon

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Re: Plane doing something strange in hour glass
« Reply #49 on: July 25, 2016, 05:33:11 PM »
Lap time is 5.5.

Ole Dad will double check but will check the lines.

It was 5.5 on your post back on July 3rd.  TURN THE NEEDLE IN!! or ADD PITCH!!!!   :) :) :) :) :)   And try again.

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