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Author Topic: Baby got Back!!  (Read 3009 times)

Online Paul Taylor

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Baby got Back!!
« on: January 08, 2025, 06:05:22 PM »
I’m building a Pathfinder kit. The tail feathers weigh 3.2oz with joiner wire and hinges. Still need to add horn and monokote.

Without buying new contest balsa how do you build light parts using kit wood???



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Online Paul Taylor

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2025, 06:08:31 PM »



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Offline Doug Moisuk

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2025, 06:19:42 PM »
You pretty much can’t.
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2025, 06:27:15 PM »
Yeah Paul that tail isn't that big either.   It shouldn't weight over two ounces - maybe 1 1/2 ounces at that stage.   It's hard and most of the BEST wood we can get today isn't what it used to be.   Just gotta get lighter wood.   You can pare down the structure some to help but there doesn't appear to be very much you can take out of that.   Problem is due to the moments involved it will take twice as much nose weight to counter the extra beef in the tail....I'd start over.

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Offline EricV

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2025, 06:33:00 PM »
I’m building a Pathfinder kit. The tail feathers weigh 3.2oz with joiner wire and hinges. Still need to add horn and monokote.

Without buying new contest balsa how do you build light parts using kit wood???



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Tails are my most disposed of item next to flaps. When they either come out too heavy, or occasionally warp. I never hesitated to chuck them and start over. Suffering a lifetime with a tail heavy or out of trim plane, or overweight plane after compensating with nose weight, just isn't worth it. Do yourself a favor and deal with it sooner than later.

EricV

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2025, 07:42:43 PM »
   OK, since you need to use kit wood, start with the strips for the ribs and diagonals. If it's firm wood, sand it thinner as best you can. It looks pretty healthy, maybe 3/32"? Sand it down to 1/16". Then cut to size as you install them and then give them another stroke or two to even them out. If you were scratch building, just substitute with 1/16" stock. You could put some holes in the center piece, but leave where it glues to the fuselage alone. Where the contours are cut, bevel those back top and bottom about 1/8" to 3/16" to a line you draw on the wood. Do that out on the tip pieces also. You could probably trim that contour back some before you sand the angles in. After you have them assembled and glue has dried, you can taper the tips back about 1/2 to 3/4" when you round the tips off, and are shaping the leading and trailing edges. You can also cut some scalps in the leading and trailing edges in between where the ribs attach, and blend that into the ribs as smooth as you can. Most of this you should do while you are building the tail feathers, so I don't know how much you can sand the thickness of the ribs at this point. If you know you are at 3.2 ounces now, then to get to the magic 2 ounce window you only need to lose an ounce. This would be a good exercise in learning just how much weight you can trim off a part. It will be worth it for any weight that you can eliminate. Just know that from this point on, keep any excess weight from structure or finish off the tail.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2025, 08:18:37 AM »
I suspect at 90grams you are too heavy.  I build heavy for a lot of reasons, mostly because I gave up trying to build light.  My PA ships typically come out around 65-70oz.  I like the line tension that weight gives me for my flying style.  Having said that, the maximum weight I allow before heading to the trash can with a stab/elevator is 75grams and that includes the horn, hinges and 1/32 sheeting of the stab plus, my stabs are about 25% larger than a Pathfinder.  I get there with a 7/16" thick airfoiled stab, a CF tube in front of the TE, light wood for the frame (Mine looks like yours uncovered) and light but stiff 1/32" sheeting.

I am not sure which Pathfinder you are building.  Keeping it "stock" probably means building a new stab with better wood.  Try using a really thin .3-.5mm CF strip on the back of the LE and TE using 6lb wood. Use 1/8" for the diagonals.  You get much better twist resistance with thicker "lighter" wood than heavier thinner wood and the Monokote will have a much better hold.  Without covering you should be able to build it at 50-55g and be just as strong.

Electric?

To answer your original question "...using kit wood."  Basically, you can't.  But, you can cut lightening holes in the tips, sand in an airfoil, carve out the insides of the LE and TE but IMHP all of that is only going to make it weaker but still too heavy.  What horn are you using?  1/8" or 3/32"?.  Maybe you can save some weight on the rudder.

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Online Paul Taylor

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2025, 08:28:27 AM »
It will be electric.

I’m going to try and carve it down like Dan suggested.
Paul
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2025, 08:52:57 AM »
It will be electric.

I’m going to try and carve it down like Dan suggested.
If you sand in an airfoil, cut a centered slot in the LE and CA in either a .5mm 1/8" CF strip it will keep it straight, give you a centerline and more than make up for the strength lost in sanding.  You can do the same for the elevators. Is this a built up or the profile.  If it is the profile, you can lighten the back a bunch.

The pix is one I gave the "Dan" treatment.  The TE could have been carved out more since I added full span CF TE Fences after it was built.

Ken

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Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2025, 09:54:41 AM »
Lousy wood in kits is one reason I gave up on kits a long time ago.  Now, however, getting light and relatively straight contest wood for scratch building is a problem so what can you do now?

Getting appreciable weight out of any particular structure is difficult.  There is only so much you can do without sacrificing strength and stiffness.  Getting weight out of the tail is a good idea but how far can you go with that?  I tried all sorts of techniques but nothing seems to be worth the effort.  The lightest structure I can produce is to cover open bays with something like polyspan. When I made a built-up stab and sheeted it with 1/16 (all wood was 5 lb. contest wood), it weighed the same as a stab made of solid sheet 5 lb. wood.  We sometimes forget how much weight the adhesives add to the structure.

I tried a foam core stab.  It came out OK and I think it will work well enough.  It weighs a whopping 0.25 ounce less than the same size stab made from a solid piece of 5.5 lb. wood.  The Gorilla Glue I used to attach the sheeting added 0.3 ounce.  I weighed the stab and the sheeting before attaching the sheeting.  So, the weight increase was due to the adhesive.  And, I was very careful on how much adhesive I used.  Just a very thin layer.

Was it worth all the added building time to save a quarter ounce?  I am not sure.  I can get another quarter ounce out of the assembly by making built-up elevators and covering with polyspan.  So, a total of half ounce out of the tail assembly.  Any method would use the same horn and hinges so any weight has to come out of the wood structure and the final finish.  Fractions of an ounce, from many places, add up to full ounces.  So, in the long run, it might be worth a bit more effort.

However, like Ken, I have pretty much given up on going to such lengths to save weight.  I am not saying to abandon any idea of controlling weight but there is no reason to get overly concerned about it.  With enough power, and reasonable wing loading, the planes I have fly well enough for my skill level.

Online Paul Taylor

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2025, 11:24:01 AM »
All good feed back. Much appreciated.

I have shaved off a few grams. Down to 87.
I might get a little more off with a sanding bar but I’m afraid of putting the structure in jeopardy.

This is a profile Pathfinder. A few post I found on the model - people needed to add tail weight. So I guess I will trudge forward and see what I end up with.
Stay tuned…..
Paul
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Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2025, 06:28:18 AM »
With a battery in the nose you may need the extra tail weight. Point the stab leading edge to about a 1/16" radius.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2025, 10:56:26 AM »
The lighter you make a structure like the flaps or elevators the more likely it is to warp at some point later.   I have changed warped flaps up to three times on a single airplane.   I finally mostly gave up on built up flaps-even sheet covered for this reason.  Most flaps on my airplanes are basically 3/8" thick.   I finally seemed to conquer the warp issue by using the best 5/16" solid sheet I can get.   I taper it from mid chord to the trailing edge where I tack on a 3/32" square basswood strip to shape to and leave on for knick resistance .  Finally I stopped covering the flaps with any type covering material which will eventually shrink and pull warps.   I just fill the wood with the light weight spackling and proceed to dope.   The spackling is vinyl and becomes a barrier to the dope soaking in to the wood where it will cause the warp.   So far this has worked out to reasonable light and stiff enough flaps that haven't warped.  I am mostly still building up the elevators (not sure why) but they begin as 1/2" which helps to control the warps.  Also using the spackling on the wood prior to dope which has proven to be the trick I believe to keeping them straight.  I can build them a little lighter in built up form but I know I will be changing them later if I do.   I'd rather try to save a little weight someplace else.

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Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2025, 11:02:18 AM »
Dave, any particular brand of spackle?  I wondered if the Elmers Carpenters wood filler would do the same thing.  The trick is to make sure whatever you use is compatible with dope.

I have some lightweight spackle I used here for some drywall work.  I am not sure of the brand, maybe they are pretty much alike.  I also have some that is rather heavy.  The small tub of that stuff feels like it weighs several pounds.

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2025, 12:16:50 PM »
Jim the stuff I use is the ultra light stuff- feels like a full tub is empty stuff.  There are different brands but I think it is about the same.  Mine is DAP from the Home Depot.   There is nothing I've found to worry about in capability.   It is water based and is totally neutral to dopes or epoxies, enamels.   Just scrape it on with an old credit card then sand it to almost gone.   I then wipe it with a tack cloth to remove the dust.   After two or three thinned dope coats I will wet sand it with 600 grit and wipe again.  It's ready to shoot color.   You will always find some imperfections with the first color coat.   Those I fix with Kombi putty (Amazon) and reshoot the color.

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Offline Jim Svitko

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #15 on: January 10, 2025, 01:16:09 PM »
I have been covering all bare wood with medium silkspan, attached with dope.  I have not noticed any warping problem due to shrinkage over time.  I do both side of the flaps and tail surfaces at the same time to minimize warping.  If there is a bowed part, it straightens out when fully dry.

Even with silkspan on the wood, it takes a good bit of effort to get a smooth surface.  That silkspan will sink into the wood grain, even with several coats of clear on the wood first.  Then, the silkspan has to be filled and sanded.  All this adds to building time, and it adds weight. 

Like adhesives, the finish adds more weight than you might think.  Anything to get some weight out of the finish will help.

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #16 on: January 10, 2025, 01:50:51 PM »
I use sheeted foam for the stab/elevator, it weighs less than yours even though it is about twice as big. 1 lb foam, 1/32" 6-7 lb, epoxy with carbon veil at the bond line. One of the issues most people have with sheeted foam is that it takes *very very little* epoxy to hold it together. Seal it with nitrate dope at the bond line, and when applying it,  put on a lot and then squeege it off with a hard plastic spreader (I use old hotel key cards) until it looks like it was barely dampened. Then use LOTS of weight or press it heavily, maybe 100 ish lbs for a typical stab.

    A lot of structural design for model airplanes is pretty questionable, and enabled by either using very strong wood, or very light wood, and not "efficient" in the use of the materials. A common mistake it taking a design that used 7-8 lb wood and just substituting 4.5 lb wood. Sometimes there is enough margin for that to work, and sometimes there isn't. The opposite case (taking an inefficient structural design that was acceptably light only because you had 4 lb wood and using 7 lb instead) ends up like yours.

   The "world's lightest Ringmaster" efforts usually wind up with structural failures when someone get the great idea to replace the 15-lb LE, TE, and spar with 5-lb wood. The Ringmaster is the absolute dead worst structural design of any commonly-built airplane, you can save weight if you are *very careful* but you had better know what you are doing - all the wood it right down the center of the wing, the worst place for it, so it had darn well be strong.


      Stabs are particularly difficult because it is very clear that they want to be *thin* for performance reasons, but they also need to be stiff for consistency. If I wasn't going to use foam, I would build it up and sheet it, but you have to also take a bunch of wood away around the edges. Maybe built-up LE, and TE just a thin cap (maybe 1/8") cap over the tip 1/32 ribs, a few 1/16 stringers spanwise. This is a lot more complicated than the original but much more efficient since it moves wood away from the center. Look how full-scale wood airplanes are built for some tips. Still more complex, make a mold for carbon shells and a few ribs inside to keep the shape.

     All that being said, one of the most amazing performance improvements I ever make was to replace a flat-wedge with an airfoiled stab and the lightest wood I could find (maybe 4.5 lbs which was pretty good at the time) with one made from a single piece of about 7-lb C-grain, 1/2 thick, 4" chord, and maybe 30" span, just airfoiled with a plane and sandpaper. It probably weighed twice what the original did, and took correspondingly more nose weight. The airplane was very unpredictable before, the next week with a new stab it was instantly far more predictable, never did anything even a little bit funny, and flew the same in the calm and the wind. I attribute this to the stiffness increase, it was *remarkably better* even though it ended up maybe 3.5-4 ounces more all-up. 630 square inches, ST46, 45-46 ounces before and right at 50 ounces after the fix.

    Point being, do the best you can and there are a lot more things to consider in addition to the weight.

    Brett

   

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #17 on: January 13, 2025, 02:20:41 PM »
The word I got about the profile Pathfinder is to move the stabilizer forward 1", which will help some. Ask Brent to check that with Gordan if you wish.

"Holding the part very close next to the sandpaper" is an old Free Flight expression that works...but only so far. Generally speaking, a lot of little pieces are lighter than fewer bigger pieces. I'm talking about molded LE's, and thin wide hard spars with vertical grain spar webbing. Yep, more labor intensive.  y1 Steve   
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Online Brent Williams

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #18 on: January 13, 2025, 04:34:15 PM »
16.5" hinge-hinge is Gordan's current preference.
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Online Paul Taylor

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #19 on: January 13, 2025, 04:43:18 PM »
16.5" hinge-hinge is Gordan's current preference.

Thanks guys.
Paul
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Online Paul Taylor

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2025, 12:34:53 PM »
16.5" hinge-hinge is Gordan's current preference.

So I will hog out the slot and move the stab forward 1 inch. Would that be cutting a inch off the back of the fuselage?
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Online Brent Williams

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Re: Baby got Back!!
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2025, 12:46:18 PM »
So I will hog out the slot and move the stab forward 1 inch. Would that be cutting a inch off the back of the fuselage?

Yep, chop and open the slot.  Gordan and Bart Klapinsky both thought it flew a cleaner pattern at 16.5 vs 17.5 so that's been their preference for the last 10-15 years or so.  Bart was pretty deadly with his white/red PF for many years.  A golden arm.  You'd have to ask those guys for more specific reasoning and observations. I just report the news, 😆.
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