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Author Topic: From One "Newbie" To Another  (Read 3186 times)

Offline Michael Massey

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From One "Newbie" To Another
« on: August 03, 2010, 12:23:14 PM »
Well, maybe I am not a total newbie.  When do you stop being a newbie?  Actually, I have been back into CL flying for a little less than 2 years, and that after a lay off of about 56 or 57 years.  But back then, I could do loops, upside down and lazy eights.  My how things have changed.

So why am I writing this note?  Well, I am still "newbie" enough to remember all of the things I did wrong and those that worked well for me as I got reacquainted with the sport.  I would like to share some of those with any of you that are either coming back to the sport or getting into it for the first time.  I am going to start from ground zero so if you are just getting ready to start or are into it for a short time, maybe some of this will help.  Anyone else that reads this, please share your thoughts and experiences as well.  Here we go.

I am old enough to remember the multitude of Cox .049 plastic kits that were all the rage for awhile.  Cox began making those in 1953 and stopped in 1976.  For those of you who don't know what I am talking about, Cox had a fairly wide variety of prepackaged plastic airplanes.  They were all powered by the Cox .049 and they were "ready to fly."  I guess they were the first of the real RTF's.  They introduced a lot of folks to control line flying.  I am not sure if that was good or bad since they were abysmal to fly.  If that was a person's only exposure to control line flying, they probably think model airplanes are far too quirky to be fun.  They flew like a tethered "Pet Rock."  (You remember the Pet Rock don't you?  Oh well, I guess that's another story, something else I didn't invent.)

The only reason I bring this up is to point out that generally speaking, as the planes get larger, they become easier to fly and have more "mass" which will equate to better line tension at the end of the control lines.  That is a really good thing.  A very good combination from yesteryear, and still good today for someone getting started or getting back into the sport after a layoff, is the Ringmaster with a .35.  It will fly decently and is durable enought to withstand some, but not too dramatic, "close encounters of the ground kind."

Speaking of encounters with the ground, it is not uncommon to hit the ground while inverted, or upside down as some of us less sophisticated might tend to call it.  When that happens, often it is a broken propeller and needle in the needle valve.  Whenever I order a new engine, I order at least 1 but usually 2 spare needles for the needle valve.  The needle is not very costly and they are not always available when you need...le it.  (Sorry, that was just too good to pass up.)

Do yourself a favor and run any new engine on the bench before trying to fly it.  Follow the manufacturer's recommendations, but put on at least 30 minutes of bench time.  I like 60 minutes.  Aside from the risk of engine damage by not breaking it in before flying, trying to learn to fly with an engine that is too new to be consistent will be frustrating and not particularly fun.  Fun is why we are doing this.  While I am on the subject, follow the manufacturer's recommendations for fuel.  You can mix you secret blends after you become a more experienced flyer.

When I got back into the sport, I "scratch built" a Ringmaster from a set of plans.  My 56+ year layoff from building airplanes was really exemplified, all in this poor Ringmaster.  I had to use a series of clamps to "pull" parts of it close enough together to apply the glue.  But it flew.  It flew well enough to get me back in the air and actually back to loops, upside down and lazy eights.  All was good until I tried something else and momentarily lost sight of the plane.  Did I mention, if you can avoid it do not begin learning on blacktop.  Most unforgiving.

My biggest reason for sharing this particular airplane is to open up the discussion to, what I like to call, "chasing the nuance."  If it has not happened to you, it will.  It starts innocently enought.  Someone who has been flying for awhile will say something like, "Do you have adjustable lead outs?" ... "What kind of tip weight do you have?" ... "You need a Randy Smith needle valve."  (Yes they are good.) ..."You need an idle bar glow plug." ... "You need a ..."  Bear in mind these are all good suggestions and may help your airplane fly slightly better but in the early stages of learning/relearning to fly, you probably won't be able to tell the difference.  Remember those suggestions for sometime down the road.  In the short term, FLY THE AIRPLANE!  FLY IT!  FLY IT!  FLY IT!  More experience is what you really need.

The inevitable crash.  It will happen!  What to do.  My suggestion would be to do what I did.  I found an airplane that flew well for me and was easy to build.  I made an assembly line that Henry Ford would have been proud of.  I aptly named my airplanes QNDT's (Quick and Dirty Trainers.)  No sanding, no fillets, no fancy paint jobs, only paint enough to protect the airplane from the ravages of fuel should it last that long.  I went through number of these but they proved their worth.   I flew my first contest in Eugene, OR in May (The Northwest Regionals) and I actually placed 4th in Intermediate Aerobatics.

I would be remiss if I did not also point out that anything I recommend here is NOT intended to take the place of getting advice for a particular problem.  If, or when, you run into a real problem, put that question or issue to experienced flyers both where you fly and on the forums.  Those are both great resources.

In summary, I believe I would have "come along faster" had I followed my own advice to "FLY IT!  FLY IT!  FLY IT!" and left "chasing the nuance" for later.

Eagle Point, Oregon
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2010, 01:13:32 PM »
Well, maybe I am not a total newbie.  When do you stop being a newbie?  Actually, I have been back into CL flying for a little less than 2 years, and that after a lay off of about 56 or 57 years.  But back then, I could do loops, upside down and lazy eights.  My how things have changed.
(snip)  
I flew my first contest in Eugene, OR in May (The Northwest Regionals) and I actually placed 4th in Intermediate Aerobatics.
(snip)
In summary, I believe I would have "come along faster" had I followed my own advice to "FLY IT!  FLY IT!  FLY IT!" and left "chasing the nuance" for later.

Hi Michael,

I think you bring up some excellent points!  Flying is super important for those just coming back, and down and dirty trainers are a great way to go.  The *Super Belchfire in a Caddywompus Special* is not necessary to the *newbie*.

I don't exactly follow your final sentence I included, though.....  Finishing 4th in your first contest in Eugene (where I am sure the competition is strong) after that short of a period doesn't leave much room for doing it quicker, unless you had hired a coach and practiced almost daily.  Well, maybe not quite all that, but still...... ;D

The old saying really is true, "Success in CLPA is found at the bottom of many empty fuel cans."

Mongo
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Offline Wynn Robins

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2010, 02:09:20 PM »
I would like to add two things

1) Find a system that other people around you are using that works well and copy it 100%.
That way if you have any issues - these other guys will know what to do to help you.

2) Build and fly the biggest profile you can - as is mentioned above - bigger planes fly slower and are a LOT easier to control.  Bigger engines are also easier to run more consistently.
In the battle of airplane versus ground, the ground is yet to lose

Offline Michael Massey

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2010, 06:36:12 PM »
Thanks to both of you for the feedback.  Great stuff.

Mike
Eagle Point, Oregon
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Offline Brian Massey

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2010, 07:25:15 PM »

I don't exactly follow your final sentence I included, though.....  Finishing 4th in your first contest in Eugene (where I am sure the competition is strong) after that short of a period doesn't leave much room for doing it quicker, unless you had hired a coach and practiced almost daily.  Well, maybe not quite all that, but still...... ;D

Mongo
I can attest that Mike spent many many hours at the field practicing y1, and often taking his planes home in a plastic bag  HB~> HB~>. But it paid off for him!

Brian
While flying the pattern, my incompetence always exceeds my expectations.

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Offline Jerry Leuty

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2010, 08:07:02 PM »
   I came back to this sport some 11 years ago and found my third love in life again or maybe it is even a little less than that. At any rate this brings me much pleasure. I too started with a Wen Mac plastic model way back in 1954. Next came a Fire Baby with a Baby Bee .049. They flew reasonable well too. But the big Ringmaster with a red head Mc Coy .35 on 60' steel lines really cinched it for me. We were off an running then. After a 20+ year lay off to finish up my working career I met a man that we had flown together back when we were kids. He told me of some people who were still flying C/L in my area. A few months later I got to witness a flying session. The smell of fuel, the sights and sounds of that plane going round and round was intoxicating. It wasn't long after that I was flying again. The main thing that I have learned about this sport is that you do need good reliable equipment to work with. Build a few air frames that are all the same, say a profile Oriental or from some plans that you like. Power them with a good .35 or .40. And like it has been said go fly the wings off of them. Laugh when you crash, get another out and correct your mistakes and fly some more. I hope that you are not a trophy hound and are doing this for the fun and satisfaction of seeing your own creation fly a fairly decent pattern. If you read the chronicles in Stunt News written by some of the World Champs you may get the picture as to why this stuff is a hobby for pleasure and not for self glory. If this stuff were on the level of a NASCAR driver and we actually got paid I could see pouring your life's work into it. After all they make a great living risking their lives driving 180+ mph. We on the other hand go for the fun of it all. Remember get good simple reliable equipment and lets go flying..........Jerry

Offline Michael Massey

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2010, 09:16:01 PM »
I am definitely not a trophy hound, but on the other hand I don't laugh when I crash.  I want to do a credible job at what ever I do, and that would include flying.  I will have to admit that the "group" standing around and watching me fly, or not, does impose some peer pressure even though I am convinced it is not intended.  I often practice alone primarily because it is in addition to what I can get on regular club flying days and I can get more flights in.  The side bar is that there is not the unintended peer pressure. 

I only mentioned the placement at the Northwest Regionals to show that practice and perseverance does have it's personal reward and sense of accomplishment.  And yes, part of that satisfaction is seeing that a plane you build from scratch, without plans, can fly a very decent pattern.

Mike
Eagle Point, Oregon
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Offline Jerry Leuty

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2010, 04:58:00 PM »
    I pancaked one in today on my grass acre and did some minor damage. It is all very fixable and in short order I think. I did not laugh about it either. This is a nice plane with no damage until now. My point was not to get too much wrapped up in a plane that you have to cuss when you ding it up. Keep it fun and go on with more creations.................Jerry

Offline Michael Massey

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2010, 06:38:27 PM »
Sorry to hear about the pancake but glad it is readily fixable.  I definitely agree with your comments.  Even the "Quick and Dirty Trainers" have too much work in them not to feel somewhat bad when they crash.  I know we can't let that fear of crashing get in the way of pushing our practice towards better flying, but I will admit, even with the Quick and Dirty Trainers, there is an apprehension when pushing my limits.  But I fly on, hoping the last crash was my last crash and, since the frequency of my "earthly encounters" is becoming less, my QNDT's are becoming less so ... QNDT.  Keep having fun.

Mike
Eagle Point, Oregon
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Offline Bill Little

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2010, 09:24:30 PM »
Hi Mike,

You seem to have a great approach to this hobby/sport!  I am very glad that you are enjoying it at this point.  Having fun, in whatever way you see fun, is what's important.  I was a Trophy Hound to a degree some time ago.  Having been successful in athletics as a player and coach had developed a set of rules in my psyche.  I almost ruined this hobby for myself right after I first came back about 25 years ago.  I came to a realization that I had limitations, whether I wanted them or not! LOL!!  No time or place to get in the practice needed, etc., so I still build the best I can, and fly the best I can, but I don't let it burn me down (inside) like it used to when I don't do as well as I expect to.  I would love to live in a place where there was a flying field, and people to fly with.  But alas, it isn't to be.......

So!  Fly the best you can, work as hard as you want to, but always enjoy it.  And help those that you can along the way.

Big Bear
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Offline bob werle

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #10 on: August 08, 2010, 12:22:28 AM »
Michael...more info on the qadt.  I am getting back into cl after 40+ years and have been using some all balsa sheet models from 28" to 46" span  1/2a to .29.  I am interested in what you are using can you post a picture and or specs. one newbie to another
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Offline Michael Massey

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2010, 03:06:02 PM »
Well here I go again for a second round.  I went through a lengthy and detailed reply but when I tried to post it, I got an error saying file was too large and promptly lost everything.  So I will try again, this time in Word and will “cut and paste” to avoid losing it.

Thanks Bill for your response.  Yes it is too bad you cannot fly all you want to.  Practice is really the key.  Fortunately, here in Cottage Grove, OR, I can fly pretty regularly.  That helps a lot.

Ok Bob, I’ll try to share all I can.  A little background first.  Both my brother and I got back into flying in September of 2008.  My brother had some old engines that belonged to our dad so he gave me 4.  One of those was a Supertiger .35.  As I got started back into the sport, I build a Ringmaster (since crashed) and a Magician (since crashed).  While I was flying the Magician, I bought and built a profile Smoothie.  Although the kit said it would take a Fox .35, it would not.  The kit builder cut the fuselage opening for a larger engine.  As it turns out, the Supertiger .35 would fit.  So away I went, sort of.  The Smoothie flew well but as it turns out, the Supertiger was never broken in so the grief went on as I tried to fly the “break in” of the Supertiger.  At the time I was doing that, I did not know it was a break in issue.  I only figured that out somewhere down the road as it began to actually break in.  Anyway, because the Smoothie flew well I decided to go the QNDT route and used the basic measurements of the Smoothie for the QNDT’s.  The Smoothie had an overall wingspan of 48” (only 42 ½” outside rib to outside rib) with a fuselage length of 29 2/4”.  They flew well but when I build QNDT number 3, I decided to put a larger engine in it.  I bought an OS Max .46 because some of the guys where I fly had them and they ran well.  (A nod to Wynn Robins and his comments.) 

So on QNDT 3 I followed the same essential wing design.  Essentially the wings I am building are straight leading edge (LE) and trailing edge (TE) with what ever wing tips strikes me at the time.  The straight wings make for ease of building.  On QNDT 3 I lengthened the wing to 47” outside rib to outside rib with an overall wing span of 52”.  The fuselage was 34”.  QNDT 3 flew even better than the original ones.  When I say better it means to me that it is more stable, turns crisply and has good line tension.

I then bought a Pathfinder kit and built a “scratch” Pathfinder using the parts as templates.  The Pathfinder flew even better than QNDT 3.  (Another nod to Wynn Robins and his comments on an earlier post on this thread.)  But I put a lot of work in the Pathfinder and was still not through the stunt pattern so did not want to risk that plane.  So I have built several more planes following the basic Pathfinder measurements.  I no longer call them QNDT’s because I have progressed sufficiently in my flying that I now sand and add trim paint.  All that because I have reduced (but not eliminated) the frequency of crashes.  So maybe I should call them “Not So Quick and Dirty Trainers.”

My current flyer is of this latest generation.  It flies well and has gotten me all of the way through the stunt pattern. (Finally)  I have crashed it 3 times I believe.  In each case the engine has broken off the nose.  Wing has been fine.  I replaced the nose once, entire fuselage once and nose again.  Two things to note here.  I should have made the engine/nose fuselage doublers extend farther down the fuselage to at least the peak of the wing rib.  I did not.  The second thing of importance is the wing.  I plank the leading edge back to the peak of the rib and I cover with silk.  The planking adds strength but weight.  The silk is very hard to work with but again adds strength and weight.  Weight because it takes about 10 coats of dope to get it sealed and tight.

Anyway, the current flyer, I call it my “Plane Simple” is a 50” wingspan outside rib to outside rib.  It is 52 ½” tip to tip.  The fuselage is 36”.  The horizontal stabilizer is large, about 24” in total width.  The stabilizer portion is within the 36” the elevator extends beyond the 36”.  The wing LE is 9 ½” from the tip of the fuselage.  The wing cord is 9 ¾ and the peak of the rib is 2 ¾” back from the LE.  Because all of my ribs are cut from 2” high balsa, the wing thickness is that plus the 2 sections of 1/16” planking in the center of the wing.  Note that I plank the LE to the peak, the center of the wing for mounting in the fuselage and the TE.  I then add 1/16” caps to the top and bottom of each rib.  So the overall with thickness is the addition of the planking on each side to the rib size.

Some building notes on my methods.  For the fuselage I use a router table with a fence to cut all of the openings (motor, wing and stabilizer) while the ½” x 36” balsa is still square.  That way everything is on the trust line.  Only after that do I cut the “shape” on the band saw.

For the ribs, I use a block of balsa 2” x 4” x cord of rib, usually 9 ½” to 9 ¾”.  I draw the outline of the rib on the 2” side of the balsa block.  I then use the router to cut the top and bottom ¼” spar slots.  I usually place those at the peak of the rib outline which is about 25% back from the LE.  In the current case, it is 2 ¾” back from what will be the front tip of the LE.  At this point I take a heavy black marker and draw a line down one of the slots just cut.  I do that so that during construction of the wing, I can orient the ribs the same way they were on the block.  (I don’t care how carefully I try to do the cutting and shaping of the rib block, there seems to always be some slight variation.  Anyway, at this point I cut the opening or openings in the interior of the rib for weight reduction and lead out placement.  Be careful to not remove too much of the rib interior otherwise the strength is too compromised.  Removing the interior has always been a bit of a problem for me.  Until I find a better method, I drill holes through the block then cut and file the openings.  Crude but it works and no one sees it.

After all that, I use the band saw to cut the shape.  Then sand to try to get as symmetrical a shape as I can.  After that, I use the band saw to “slice” the ribs.  I can usually get more than enough ribs from the 4” block.  I usually cut most of the ribs to a little over 1/16” thickness and 4 more about twice as thick that I use in the center of the wing for the controls and planking.

Only now am I beginning to use weight boxes and adjustable lead outs.  Prior to now, I did not have enough experience to know the differences.  I’m not sure I can now but with those additions I certainly can be a greater danger to myself.

Hope some of this helps.  Now I will see if I can add some pictures. 
Eagle Point, Oregon
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Offline bob werle

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2010, 11:48:42 PM »
Thanks for the crash course on your trainer.  I am was behind you--take off,wingover ,inside loop,abrupt landing.
thanks again
Bob
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #13 on: August 10, 2010, 08:59:24 AM »
The planes look great.  I am surprised you haven't started using the rib templates made of metal or ply.  Make two identical templates.  Sandwich the balsa between them and start sanding.   I build on a jig so the bolts that go thru the ribs is same diameter as my jig rods(1/4 inch).  Maybe I will do a tutorial on my next plane.   H^^
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Offline Jim Thomerson

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #14 on: August 10, 2010, 10:30:33 AM »
I think the first important thing is to get the engine, fuel system, and prop working reliably.  Ideally, I don't even hear the engine when I am flying.  It is doing its thing out at the end of the lines and I am just concentrating on the airplane.

Offline Michael Massey

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2010, 11:15:18 AM »
Well, after I posted my building information, I tried to post the pictures of my current flyer but since I had replied once, I could not get back on to post a second response.  But now I can.

John, the reason I don't use two templates is very simple.  I did not think of it.  I like it however.  When one is first getting started or back into the sport, there is a huge lack of available information, even if you knew what to ask.  The forums are a great resource but the initial learning curve is very large.

Bob, not to worry.  You will keep progressing and soon be through the pattern.  When I was working on the pattern, I would pick a stunt I had not yet done, do it in my mind a lot of times (probably the only time I didn't crash), then do only that stunt on a particular flight.  I did not try to just go through the pattern.  It was too daunting at first.  Anyway, that worked for me.  Keep at it and you will do well.

Bill, like you I like to do things well and keep practicing and learning until I get at least decent.  I find now that I am getting better with my flying but my age is coming at me from the other direction.  I just hope I get pretty good before my age becomes an obstacle.  Should have got back into this earlier than I did.  Oh well, keep having fun.

Now I can finally attach the pictures of the current flyer.  Next project will be a built-up fuselage.

Regards to all and thanks for the inputs. 

Mike
Eagle Point, Oregon
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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #16 on: August 11, 2010, 02:51:03 PM »
Mike.  I don't think you have to worry about age!  I'm quite a bit older than you, and I think I'm still improving (but only a little).

The "guys" recently observed that your flying has improved a great deal lately.  So keep it going!

Floyd
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: From One "Newbie" To Another
« Reply #17 on: August 11, 2010, 09:22:16 PM »
Great looking plane.  I see your four footed helper there.  I now have a pair, the demented poodle and my legal chihuahua.  Only the poodle goes to the field with me tho.
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

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