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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Dick Pacini on September 26, 2011, 05:55:00 AM
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This topic may have been posted before but I haven't seen it.
I have bought a couple of limited edition laser cut kits from specialty builders, with a couple more on the way soon. I also have a few commercially produced kits from retailers. I have not built any yet.
My question is how do these models perform, especially the limited edition models which seem to have a higher level of quality and attention to detail. Some have been shown in pictorials from bones to bird. However, after the prototypes are completed and orders filled, we don't hear too much about them.
I realize that even the best designed, engineered and built airplane is going to need trimming, but why the absence of feedback?
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They all fly great when built light and straight. Also each one has to be trimmed for flight and handling. Laser cutting makes for more accurates parts and easier build. Now if they could just program me to fly the pattern the way it is supposed to be flown. LL~ LL~ LL~
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The only kit I've built in the last 4 or 5 years was a Walter Umland Cobra. The thing practically fell together. I had it framed and read for covering in something like 2 weeks. And the plane flew, well, just like a Cobra. Weight was right in the expected range. Nice kit.
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So which is it?
People never build those kits but add them to the to-be-done list, or people are better at building than showing others on the interwebs what they have done?
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It seems that very few people document their builds step by step. Even fewer document the trimmimg process. Fewer yet document first flights. I don't have a movie camera.
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Ever tried to document a build? It's tedious and time consuming. I tried, fell flat, don't have the patience but hats off to those who do. Kits? Walter Umland's are the current gold standard. Both Brodak and RSM are excellent. If you are a beginner or haven't built in awhile, go with a Brodak kit. The instruction book they come with is excellent, photos and text. RSM kits have good to great wood but no instructions so it helps to have built a few stunters before tackling one of these. Hardware is adequate in both but can be upgraded for more experienced builders/fliers. 8)
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I keep waiting for someone to build one of Walters Galloping Comedians and tell us about how it came out weight wise and how well it flew. Have no idea how many he sold but so far haven't heard of anyone that actually built one.
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I don't expect a blow-by-blow pictorial on construction once a kit is introduced, although photos during construction are really a teaser which, I believe, sells more kits.
It would create more interest if someone who built one of the high-end kits reported back on how it flew.
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Maybe I wasn't very clear. I built a Walter Umland kit and it flew very well. The wood was light, it was a proven design and flew just as advertised.
I tend to take a lot of pictures during construction, but it's usually of stuff that is unique to the particular build, not the more mundane stuff. Or pictures taken when I'm done for the session. I've never tried to document a build, step by step. That would take forever. I've always been impressed with Al Rabe's step by step documentation of such stuff. I don't have the patience for that.
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I don't expect a blow-by-blow pictorial on construction once a kit is introduced, although photos during construction are really a teaser which, I believe, sells more kits.
It would create more interest if someone who built one of the high-end kits reported back on how it flew.
Right now I have a complete construction thread on the Pathfinder LE over in the building section. Gives details about the quality of the kit, the parts, and the mistakes in that particular kit. A flying report will come when it is completed.
Most all kits these days are laser cut, no matter what the source. I can say without hesitation that the brodak laser cut vector 40 flies very very well indeed.
I cannot comment on UHP, Randy's or Walters kits as I've not built any. I would gather they fly as well as the designer intended them to.
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This topic may have been posted before but I haven't seen it.
I have bought a couple of limited edition laser cut kits from specialty builders, with a couple more on the way soon. I also have a few commercially produced kits from retailers. I have not built any yet.
My question is how do these models perform, especially the limited edition models which seem to have a higher level of quality and attention to detail. Some have been shown in pictorials from bones to bird. However, after the prototypes are completed and orders filled, we don't hear too much about them.
I realize that even the best designed, engineered and built airplane is going to need trimming, but why the absence of feedback?
Dick, an interesting question from one whom we are awaiting flying reports from your first build .
At any rate the expert can make any kit work well. the inept can buy the best and create a nightmare. Then there are some who think that they have such talent that no kit that they buy measures up to their expectations. it takes all kinds. But you can be sure that all kit manufactures are committed to making excellent kits. High end kits are measured by the quality of their plans and wood. As has been pointed out if the parts don't match the plans you have a problem. Incidentally i don't think with the time,effort, or money that it takes to create and market a kit that anyone wants to create a limited edition kit. Unfortunately a lot of people love a design but not enough to buy one at any price.
You have no idea how tedious it is to document a building sequence and no matter what you do there is always the photo that you should have taken because even though it's obvious to you someone is going to be in a fog about what was done.Until recently there was only 2 kit makes who documented his kits with a building sequence, others have others do prototype building for them. You would be surprised at the number of prototypes that do not get finished and the kit manufactures is left holding the bag.
You rarely hear from anyone who posts a picture of a model whether it was a kit or original. Some we already know that they design and build their own models.Everyone likes to look at a finished model. You go to a field and you probably won't hear anyone saying whether it's kit or scratch. To me unless it's the nats it's unimportant.
The number of kits bought is not directly tied to the number of models that show up on the field. I think you have a few in your pile, I have a lot more. some feel that certain kits are too nice to build at their level but 'someday' and they want it there for when they are ready. I feel there are a large number of kits are in that category.
Finally on flying, your likely to hear about models that fly badly or are badly designed then the good stuff. After all you expect it to fly well and trimming is just the mormal part of flying that you do to bring the model up to your expectation.
Just let me sum up my feeling about kit making. You couldn't pay me enough to ever even consider going into it. we should try and at least be thankful for the high quality kits we have now compared to the supposed golden age of the 40/50/60's. It really did pay to scratch build back then.
dennis
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Right now I have a complete construction thread on the Pathfinder LE over in the building section. Gives details about the quality of the kit, the parts, and the mistakes in that particular kit. A flying report will come when it is completed.
Most all kits these days are laser cut, no matter what the source. I can say without hesitation that the brodak laser cut vector 40 flies very very well indeed.
I cannot comment on UHP, Randy's or Walters kits as I've not built any. I would gather they fly as well as the designer intended them to.
Yes Peter, I have been following your thread with great interest, since I own the same Pathfinder LE kit, yet to be built.
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I keep waiting for someone to build one of Walters Galloping Comedians and tell us about how it came out weight wise and how well it flew. Have no idea how many he sold but so far haven't heard of anyone that actually built one.
I'm probably going to build mine next year and I'll post the progress as I go. It's going to be lighter than you think. ;)
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There is only one more thing and this I want to know. What does lazer cutting have to do with the performance of any model. Or could you have a hidden meaning in your thread.
dennis
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There is only one more thing and this I want to know. What does lazer cutting have to do with the performance of any model. Or could you have a hidden meaning in your thread.
dennis
No hidden meaning. In fact, I wish now I hadn't made the first post.
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I think this thread could be quite useful if it encourages someone to post a few pictures and some comments on how they liked the kit and design. Maybe even highlight something they preferred to do differently.
If you post a build, it doesn't mean you have to write a build manual and document every step.
I, for one, am always checking out threads where people show what they have built. It might not be something I'm likely to ever build myself but it can give me some ideas.
Laser ... no magic there, as far as I can tell. Just a highly efficient way to make accurate parts.
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Dick Why don't you do the very thing that you are talking about. You do not need to show a lot of pictures, just the important ones. bellcrank,landing gear,canopy,tank compartment,method of finish.One of the problems is you will get comments like,WOW,GREAT JOB,LOOKS FANTISTIC,I LIKE IT. There is not a lot to be said unless the builder makes comments that something did not fit or the wood was bad.I have shown quite a few builds on here but they are not kits. I did show Walter's Reactor a few years ago. I did a Juno build explaining why I did each part but I get the same people commenting each time as they are fans of the type of model I am building.
Don't post the build here, put it in the proper forum,building,classic or old time. One of the reasons there are not more building pictures is there has been a lot already. Most have been about ARF's but they seem to have most of the problems. Collecting kits to be built limits you. As your interest change you feel you must build some thing you already have. Just send one of your kits over here and I will do a picture build of it. I will fly it and give a report on it.You can have it back when I tire of it. Walter asked me if I was interested in doing the Trixy for him but I haven't flown the original yet.
Ed
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Somehow, my point was lost. I was not asking why buyers of these models don't do a pictorial on the build. I don't expect that to happen. In my mind, showing a pictorial of a prototype helps boost the hype and the "I want one" factor and that is when pix have the most effect.
My point was, why is it that we hear so very little about the planes after they have been introduced? Perhaps most people are stockpiling them, as I have been. One day soon, I hope to uncap the glue.
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Dick,
That would be my take on the super-premium model kits: they appeal more to the collectors than to the
actual persons who would build and fly them. That's certainly O.K., too, as it definitely doesn't hurt the hobby
to have more kits of any price on the market.
To date, none of the expensive, custom cut kits have appeared at our field, but I would imagine that they
eventually will.
Best regards,
Richard Ferrell
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I keep waiting for someone to build one of Walters Galloping Comedians and tell us about how it came out weight wise and how well it flew. Have no idea how many he sold but so far haven't heard of anyone that actually built one.
Go to Walters site and browse around. Click on a kit and some of them have building notes with and without pictures. The Galloping Comedian is one. I used his site to build the ISW(International Stunt Winner). Maybe might get some flights this weekend in between the Ringmaster flights.
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There is only one more thing and this I want to know. What does lazer cutting have to do with the performance of any model. Or could you have a hidden meaning in your thread.
dennis
Dennis,
As you are well aware, the laser cutting makes beautiful parts. One of the big pluses of laser cut parts is that the accuracy of the cut parts does not try to push the assemblies out of shape because of alignment problems. A skilled builder can build a nice looking, good flying airplane from a garbage kit. A laser cut kit makes building a good looking straight airplane easier, it definitely helps those of us of average skill to build a straight airplane. The laser cut kit is normally faster to build. If the kit is poorly designed it doesn't matter if it is laser cut or axe cut.
Pat
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Hello Dick,
The laser cut kits are better than the old die cut models. Thus they are easier to build and thus they should be superior to the diecut versions. The laser cuts true and does not affect the wood except for the burnt edges where the cuts where made. Do they fly better? I would say yes because they are probably truer to the design. Further the balsa used in the laser cut kits is superior to the diecut wood in most cases. I hope this helps. Chuck Feldman
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Dennis,
>>What does lazer cutting have to do with the performance of any model.<<
Well, the first thing is accuracy. It's much easier to build a straight model with laser cut parts. The parts fit the way they are supposed to and it makes it much easier to insure alignment. As a result, most probably fly better than the old die cut kits. Or scratch built, for that matter. They also insure tight fits. That adds to structural integrity and gives you a model that is going to flex less.
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What Randy said!
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Plus tight fitting parts need less glue which means less weight..
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HI Dick,
I got the meaning of your first post. ;D "Why don't we hear about how these kits fly?"
I think it is much like some have said, many of the people who actually do buy the kits don't build them. Plus as someone else said, you generally only hear (on internet sites) about models that have problems that need fixing to fly well.
The laser cutting does help in building an accurate model, no doubt. Does it increase or impact on the flying? In as much as it is easier to build an accurate model.
Walter's Galloping Comedian is a beautiful, excellent made kit. But we cannot expect it to fly like the Cobra, Stiletto, or Trivial Pursuit, Saturn, Impact, etc., (all models which have been kitted lately). It is an OTS model and will fly depending on how well it is built.
Another thought is just how well did the original model fly? Some were built to the taste of the original designer and trimmed to suit him. A perfect copy might not please someone else at all. It doesn't mean the model was "bad", just not for everyone else "as designed".
The simple fact that few ever actually post a "flight report" is simply a fault of the internet so to speak. I have hardly never posted on how a new model flies unless I have a trim issue I cannot work out. Simply lazy on my part!
I appreciate the hard work that goes into the making of these "super kits", and would never try to start a business doing so!
"How do you make a million dollars in the C/L kit business? Start with two million......." ;D
Big Bear
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I feel the need to clarify something here,
the laser is not a benefit to anyone unless the DRAFTSMAN doing the engineering and drawing work is accurate and thorough in his work. the laser only cuts the parts that are drawn.
It does do a much better job of replicating the intent of the designer/draftsman, but it cannot make a poorly designed structure easier to build.
as to posting flight reports, I must agree with Dick, it is kind of odd that we hear of these great introductions for kits, and how great they are, but never seem to hear how they fly. I assume that means that they flew above expectations since if they didnt we would surely hear about it.... y1
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Pat hit on a critical point in his above post. You can take the most beautiful precision laser cut kit in the world and build an absolute abortion of a model if you do not follow instructions and are trying to build a model above your experience level. I started out producing hand cut kits as did Walter Umland, Larry Richards and Tom Morris. I still do custom cut hand cut kits when I get a request for one or two kits that were never kitted or are no longer in production as it is not cost effective to have them laser cut. Plus when you hand cut kits, there is no way you can charge for what your labor is worth.
One of the biggest advantages to laser cut kits is the amount of time you save in both cutting the kit and assembling the kit. I just did two kit runs with laser cutting which added up to 40 kits. Imagine the time it would take me or anyone else to sit down and cut out 40 kits by hand although yours truly and the folks I mentioned above have done it. When you are producing kits like this whether you are a cottage kit manufacturer like me or a producing on a bigger scale such as RSM or Brodak, laser cutting is a Godsend.
Now as for the question of does a laser cut model fly any better than a hand built kit from scratch? If all things were equal and both kits were built by a world class builder and flown by a world class flyer, I doubt if one would fly any better than the other. There are just too many variables to give a positive answer. As for me, I still take a lot of pride in taking a set of plans and a pile of balsa and cutting something out that I am proud of but that is me. We have clientel for ARFs, Custom hand cut kits and laser cut kits. This is the beauty of our hobby and the people in it that make it special.
Kindest Regards
Mike
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I feel the need to clarify something here,
the laser is not a benefit to anyone unless the DRAFTSMAN doing the engineering and drawing work is accurate and thorough in his work. the laser only cuts the parts that are drawn.
It does do a much better job of replicating the intent of the designer/draftsman, but it cannot make a poorly designed structure easier to build.
as to posting flight reports, I must agree with Dick, it is kind of odd that we hear of these great introductions for kits, and how great they are, but never seem to hear how they fly. I assume that means that they flew above expectations since if they didnt we would surely hear about it.... y1
I agree, Brother Mark! But in the case of the kit makers Dick was referring to, they all Do seem to get it right. We can definitely add Pat Johnston to the list, even though most of his offerings are of the Short Kit, or ribs only. The various ribs sets and a couple of short kits from Pat have been perfect. I have also gotten ribs sets and short kits from Walter, Blue Sky Models (Tom N.), Pat King, Tanks Hanger (Kyle T.), John Miller (CadClassics), and Action Hobbies/Lazer Works (Eddie Taylor) and those, also have been perfect. Unfortunately, I have not been able to finish the projects already underway in order to get to them all. I will make a vow (if I can remember it and the chemo therapy doesn't cause me to go crazy! LOL!!) to publish flight reports on these offerings.
Treatments start tomorrow!
Bill
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I think this thread could be quite useful if it encourages someone to post a few pictures and some comments on how they liked the kit and design. Maybe even highlight something they preferred to do differently.
If you post a build, it doesn't mean you have to write a build manual and document every step.
I, for one, am always checking out threads where people show what they have built. It might not be something I'm likely to ever build myself but it can give me some ideas.
Laser ... no magic there, as far as I can tell. Just a highly efficient way to make accurate parts.
Laser parts are only as accurate as the cut file, which are subject to human error. I have a couple kits where the some smaller parts don't match the plans. Nothing that can't be easily fixed though, it's still just cut balsa sheeting.
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I guess it’s time I comment since my kits have been referenced. Please keep in mind my reply will be based on the fact that most of the kits I make are of older stunt designs that had hand drawn plans and not originally drawn in AutoCAD.
While all the replies that have been posted make perfect sense, there are a few things that many do not know what we do when we start making a kit. Please let me clarify that is not to put anyone down or correct anyone’s answers.
After the decision is made to make a certain kit; the CAD draftsmen & I work tooth and nail to verify the accuracy of not the plane, but rather the parts on original plans. You would probably faint if you only knew just how bad (add your own foul word here) old plans are because so many plans, almost all of the old plans do not have symmetrical airfoils on the drawings and we know the designer did not do it that way, so there’s the first thing we have to fix that, Oh! And which one do we take the top or bottom?
Another thing that most don’t know is that in many instances the top wing view does not match or have the same measurement as the side view. In the case of tapered L.E.’s this is okay but the measurement is usually incorrect, so that’s the next thing we have to correct.
In the case of what material choice to make for a certain type of structure;
I have done some models that by the designers own admission or actual notations that while they were happy with the overall model; it was a bit on the weak side. It is in that case that we/I make a judgment call as to material type, weight and or grain to be used. All may not agree but a judgment call had to be made and I make it and that’s why my kits have a 100% guarantee. I will refund the kit price or replace any part not found to be safe as long as it is with in a reasonable amount of time and not months later when one can take the time necessary to copy the kit.
Okay without me getting long winded here, I’m sure y’all get the drift. Anyhow, by the time I put out a kit I know that model inside out (parts and construction wise).
We take a lot of time checking and rechecking our files to insure that when we go to cutting a sample it is as near to perfect as they can possibly be. Please ask any cad guy that has worked for me on a project. I’m anal about this stuff..
Once a sample is cut I will start building a prototype. I most recent days my personal and family health issues have taken much of the time required to continue doing these, so I have asked several modelers to help me out with building some of the prototypes so that I can continue making them. While I realize this may appear to take away the luster of what I do, please know that it really doesn’t, in fact, it allows me to get another’s opinion on parts fit and make sure the kits continue to go out with the same reputation of quality as they have in the past. It also allows for the very thing that Dick asked in the original post; a flight review of the built model from a laser cut kit. I think had Dick’s “subject title” been a little different, his post may have taken a different path. Anyhow… the near future line up of prototypes is as follows and whether built by myself or another modeler, I truly hope all will enjoy the prototypes and their pictures when they become available. Oh and please feel free to buy the kits from all of the cottage kit makers; after all that’s what we cottage kit guys are here for and momma needs a new pair of shoes.
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This topic may have been posted before but I haven't seen it.
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I realize that even the best designed, engineered and built airplane is going to need trimming, but why the absence of feedback?
I've built a couple of Pat King's kits..........my feedback would all be positive; I like them! I'm too jumpy to go back to cutting planes out with an x-acto knife! Pay attention to the plans, and; trim/balance them right, you won't be disappointed! H^^