Getting Someone Past the First Loop

[phil c]

I've got a new flyer learning.  He seems to have gotten stuck after learning to do loops and he did 3-4 lazy eights.  It only took him six or so flights to master take offs, climbs and dives, and do a loop with a really clunker airplane.  He got a much better plane and continued the loops and then did a few lazy eights.

Now he seems to be stuck, putting the plane into the ground regularly if he tries any thing but climbs and dives and loops.

Any suggestions of how to help him progress.  I've tried guiding him through the eights, and talking him through stuff, but it doesn't seem to help.

Phil C

[Steve Helmick]

Failure to follow the plane through the tricks with the arm is a major problem for some. Work with him/her on "dry flying" and see if that doesn't help. But maybe he/she is just nervous. Is that because of you? Are you pushing when they're not yet ready?

Another problem is how many flights are they doing per outting? Nervousness causes mental exhaustion much faster. Or are they old or out of shape physically? Too many flights a day can lead to crashes. What works for you may not work for them.    Steve 

[Guy B Jr]

Phil
If you have any good wind around there, try the stunt kite. It works every time.

[Norm Furutani]

Since I just went through (and occasionally revert back) this phase. Heres what helped me- my flying bud/coach said to make big loops, not just yank a bunch of up. This was to get the feeling of flying or guiding the plane through the manuver. Same when doing the eights. Big like in slightly higher than level and almost overhead.

Helped me!

Norm

[James C. Johnson]

Heck... I still crash as witnesses will attest to with my figure nine skip off the black top...

Tall grass field and a .049 plane... hand launch... when it goes in it doesn't get hurt... we used to fly in alfalfa... most of us already know the dues you have to pay to learn... have you ever wondered where all the planes we build go.. it there a model airplane heaven?

Jim

[ray copeland]

The 1/2a platter, .061 engine, balloon tank , flexible cox 5x3 , 35 foot lines, slightly rich, let em crash all day, eventually they will feel more confident and start doing bigger and better stunts. Just a thought, worked for me.

[RknRusty]

I'm not far past that stage. I finally figured out how to ease into the up input during the climb, and once around the top when the plane starts accelerating, it requires more input to keep it on track. Following the flight with your arm, once you manage to not plow it in, you can begin easing off the up input to begin the next climb. I still over control sometimes, but if I can keep my wits about me I can fly it around 3 fairly round loops and pull out at the right height.

Hey, look at me, giving stunt advice, haha... Okay, nobody laugh.  
Rusty

EDIT: I just re-read the first post. He's already past the loop stage. Oh well, I hope my description was useful for consecutive loops.

[steven yampolsky]

Sound like the pilot is getting disoriented. Most maneuvers you've described do not cause disorientation. Try teaching him wingovers. That should get them used to flying without reference to the ground and with a change in direction of movement. There two things is what typically causes disorientation.

Another maneuver that will help one to get ready for inverted flight or any other change in direction maneuvers is gradual decent or climb. the idea is to use one(or two) laps to make a gradual decent from 45 down to level.

[FLOYD CARTER]

My coach once told me: "Think ahead of where the plane is now; think where you want it to go; a mental track in advance.  Pretty soon, the plane will follow your mental picture."

But before I had a coach, in 1947, to be almost exact, I had never done an inside loop or flown inverted.  So one day, without any advance planning, I went up near  top and hauled full down!  To my surprise, the plane did an outside loop! From then on, I had confidence that it would actually follow my handle inputs.

Floyd

[ChrisSarnowski]

How about trying some overhead eights? That way he is not too close to the ground.

-Chris

[Phil Krankowski]

Focus on wing over and inverted for a bit, then come back to loops and 8's.

Phil

[Tim Wescott]

We have a local flyer who spent about three years crashing airplanes before he could do an outside loop -- now he's putting in flights in the low-to-mid 200-point range.

So you may want to point out to the guy that where cleverness and thought fail, sheer obstinate bloody-mindedness can still carry the day.

[George]

I've got a new flyer learning.  He seems to have gotten stuck after learning to do loops and he did 3-4 lazy eights.  It only took him six or so flights to master take offs, climbs and dives, and do a loop with a really clunker airplane.  He got a much better plane and continued the loops and then did a few lazy eights.

Now he seems to be stuck, putting the plane into the ground regularly if he tries any thing but climbs and dives and loops.

Any suggestions of how to help him progress.  I've tried guiding him through the eights, and talking him through stuff, but it doesn't seem to help.

Phil C

If the "much better plane" has a lot of work in it he is probably afraid of wrecking it. Perhaps if you remind him that learning costs a few planes it will help. Sell him a foamie if he doesn't have one and encourage a minimum finish so he can have a "beater" that he won't be afraid to crash.

Also make sure he is not pulling full up or full down and stalling out. I'm sure you have already checked that.

George 

[Mike Keville]

Learning to fly Inverted:  first, learn to do Lazy Eights....then begin stretching them into really looooonnnnng Lazy Eights.  Longer and longer.  Pretty soon he'll be covering most of the circle inverted.  "Hey, I've got it!"

Worked for me, way back when.

[phil c]

Thanks for the ideas, I'll pass them along.

As far as the plane goes, it is a slightly detuned, nearly crash proof, speed limit combat plane.  It's already been straight into the ground at least 30 times and still flies just fine.  So fear of the ground isn't a problem.  In fact, I suspect lack of fear may be more of the problem.

He's also very smart, creative, and likes to test things out for himself.  Hopefully he'll outgrow that before he retires.

Phil C

[George]

Learning to fly Inverted:  first, learn to do Lazy Eights....then begin stretching them into really looooonnnnng Lazy Eights.  Longer and longer.  Pretty soon he'll be covering most of the circle inverted.  "Hey, I've got it!"

Worked for me, way back when.

 

Wish I had known about lazy eights back then. I learned inside loops, inverted, then outside loops. Sigh...

George

[Curare]

I have to admit, flying outside loops from the bottom feels much more natural to me than from the top.

With that said, I have been struggling with outside squares, I've wiped out a few models trying. Maybe if I'd started from the top I'd be better at it

[Norm Furutani]

Thanks for the ideas, I'll pass them along.

As far as the plane goes, it is a slightly detuned, nearly crash proof, speed limit combat plane.  It's already been straight into the ground at least 30 times and still flies just fine.  So fear of the ground isn't a problem.  In fact, I suspect lack of fear may be more of the problem.

He's also very smart, creative, and likes to test things out for himself.  Hopefully he'll outgrow that before he retires.

Phil C

The guys also started me on an old fast Ukr RTF combat. Mine got an old Enya. Streamer slowed it even more. And yes, I pounded it into the ground a bunch of times. Hosed it off and back into the air. IMHO much better trainer than a jumpy 1/2a.

Norm

[RknRusty]

I forgot about a streamer. I didn't know it at the time because I was a self taught lone flyer. I just tied it on there because I thought it looked cool, but I think it helped me a lot when I was learning to do my first loops and lazy 8s on a Li'l Jumpin' Bean. I don't know if would make much difference on a .35 plane.
Rusty

[john e. holliday]

The way I learned to do outside squares was by going into a wing over.   Then when I seen the ground coming up I would hit down elevator and proceed from there.  But, then I had to learn how to do it right.   Like Allen B. says its like falling off the kitchen table.   Fly nice and flat at elevation, then hit down elevator.   Once you get over the pucker portion it becomes easy.

[Steve Helmick]

Keeping calm (the pilot) and knowing what they need to do is really important. Don't poo-poo the "dry flying", and be there to coach him/her to doing it right. Neat thing about "dry flying" is that the rookie can make his "plane" fly as slow as he needs to, and no noise or crashing, so they remain calm. Ommmmmmm.      Steve

[John Craig]

Phil,  have you recently flown the plane?  Have the crashes changed the trim? Controls are not to sensitive?  Turns inside & outside are equally? 

I am a slow learner & have spent the last few years progressing very slowly.  Fear factor is big.  I want to fly each weekend, not rebuild. If I build, I want it to be a new plane.  I could do outside loops but a few crashes & confidence was lost. Many weekends of routine flying built up the confidence & the desire to do something new.

Looking back, I believe I was slowed by an out of trim plane from  crashes & repairs.  Finally gave up the combat plane & started flying my Flite Streak & Ringmasters.  Better but still a struggle with outsides.  My mentor suggested moving the CG a bit back on the RM.  Outsides were now less of a challenge.  The FS has always been easier to fly, but 1/2 once of weight on the tail has made it a joy! Outsides are now easy. I can now comfortably fly the FS around 1/2 of the circle doing outsides all the way.  Suddenly there was confidence to do my first horizontal eight, over concrete no less!

The dry flying, visualization, a good mentor & lazy eights have helped; being 65 y.o. has not.