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Author Topic: Pattern technique  (Read 1165 times)

Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Pattern technique
« on: August 03, 2019, 09:36:20 AM »
Hello,
I have recently noticed a difference in the way in which my wrist, forearm and arm work in the outside squares corners and in the inside squares corners.
In the outside squares corners, the wrist makes the necessary movements easily and these movements are fast enough for the corners to look very sharp.

In the inside squares corners, I cannot jerk the handle using my wrist joint only fast enough for the corners to look sharp. To make them as sharp as the outside squares corners, I have to involve my forearm and arm.

To involve my forearm and arm, I have to bend the entire arm in the elbow joint and then rotate the wrist as fast as I can.

Consequently, somebody watching me flying the pattern sees a lot of arm waving and bending what, I believe, is rather not recommended.
Thank you,
M


Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Pattern technique
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2019, 12:18:06 PM »
The control surface deflection with leadout travel should be symmetrical about neutral. There’s probably not much you can do about that now. Try increasing your handle spacing.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Pattern technique
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2019, 12:24:53 PM »
I don't know of any recommended way to hold or manipulate ones handle.  It is a personal thing and the judges should never, ever see that, but ONLY the models path through the air. Other observers do NOT count. How you use your hand, wrist or arm is your method. Never try to copy some one else's method, it only gets you into the ground. Been there, tried that once. H^^

The only suggestion I can think of based on your input, is trying a biased handle, assuming yours is not.  This could give you a better geometry for full up  or down. D>K

    There is definitely a correct and recommended way. It is not particularly personal choice, or at least, the range is very small. People can get used to a lot of strange and counter-productive things and work around them, and then convince themselves that this is the only possible way, but after doing a bunch of stunt clinics and coaching at every level forever, this is just a matter of getting into bad habits and being afraid to change them, rather than their orthopedic geometry  being somehow unique.

    Of course, no one is compelled to change, it's just advice, but it's advice based on long painful experuence.

      Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Pattern technique
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2019, 01:16:24 PM »
Hello,
I have recently noticed a difference in the way in which my wrist, forearm and arm work in the outside squares corners and in the inside squares corners.
In the outside squares corners, the wrist makes the necessary movements easily and these movements are fast enough for the corners to look very sharp.

In the inside squares corners, I cannot jerk the handle using my wrist joint only fast enough for the corners to look sharp. To make them as sharp as the outside squares corners, I have to involve my forearm and arm.

To involve my forearm and arm, I have to bend the entire arm in the elbow joint and then rotate the wrist as fast as I can.

Consequently, somebody watching me flying the pattern sees a lot of arm waving and bending what, I believe, is rather not recommended.
Thank you,
M

   That very strongly suggests that you control response is too slow, and maybe that the forces are too heavy. Since it's asymmetrical, also, that you are holding your elbow too straight.  If you set your handle perpendicular to the lines at neutral (highly recommended), you need to have your elbow bent about 60-90 degrees to get symmetrical wrist movement. If you hold your arm straight like you are shooting a target pistol then your wrist will want to move much further "down" than "up", which is where the crooked/"relaxed" handle position came from. In fact, that's how I adjust to unfamilar/slightly off neutral settings, if it is tilted "forward", I change my elbow a bit. It only works on a limited range, because too straight, and I start getting the sort of effects you have.

  Note that in the proper position, you can use rotation of your forearm to increase the travel with no ill effects, without having to wave it up and down.  When I do it, I can move the handle almost 90 degrees in either direction, and neutral is neutral/vertical.

    Just as an example on the topic of control speed, not as a "recommended value" (since I can't tell what else you are doing), when I move by leadouts hard over, it's 4" from the "up" to the "down" line, and that gives me 31.8 degrees of elevator motion. The corresponding handle spacing is about 3 5/8" (which I vary  around +-1/16" depending on the feel and maybe +1/8" at 2000 foot density altitude. But I do not know what CG you are running, or much about your airplane.

     I said it before, its the same thing I suggested for Motorman for a different reason, but this is the sort of thing that will probably take *other people's assistance*. In this case, you need to get yourself with a very experienced competition modeler, who knows why you can't be waving your elbow around to succeed, to help you sort out things you are doing from things the airplane is doing.

     In recent years, your problem has become very common, because airplanes are published with much slower controls shown on the plans than they used to be, with the assumption that the CG will be correspondingly further aft. People build it the way it shows, but want their airplane to "track", and then follow the "How I was a star in 1958!" trim instructions about how you should stack nose weight in there for any trim problem. So it ends up with slow controls and forward CG, and you can't move the controls enough to get it to turn without waving your entire arm up and down.

    The last clinic I did, both David and I were complaining about our arms being worn out by the end of the day, because we flew airplane after airplane that had massive control forces and far too slow, we literally spent almost all day taking out noseweight and/or modifying handle spacing to speed them up to the low end of competitive range. You would think the pilots would have a problem with that, and they did, for the first couple of flights. Then, all of the sudden, arm-waving went away, hops out of corners went away, and all the bending/crouching/jumping/"Ole'!" arm motions went away, they cleaned up, and they picked up huge points.

   But if you are out in a parking lot trying to figure it out yourself, then you have nearly no chance, because while I can spew 5000 words describing the issue, it will be almost impossible to translate that into your "reference" and you still have next to no idea what I am talking about. It's easy with engines (or at least, modern engines) because it really is just a matter of copying the setup and following the directions, but it's very difficult with control feel issue. Most pilots are *severely crippled* because of their trim and control setup, and they generally have *no idea* that anything is wrong, and that the solution is to practice more. Without some external input or reference to follow, you can't get out of it.

      Brett

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Pattern technique
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2019, 09:24:33 AM »
By the way, there's an entire forum for this sort of question, it's called "At the Handle", presided over by Ted Fancher, who taught me everything *I* know and has forgotten more about how to fly and compete at a high level than the rest of us will ever know.

    Brett

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: Pattern technique
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2019, 01:14:13 PM »
If you set your handle perpendicular to the lines at neutral (highly recommended)...

Brett noticed at a contest last year that mine wasn't.  I fixed it.
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Offline Matt Piatkowski

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Re: Pattern technique
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2019, 07:24:10 AM »
Hi Brett,
Thank you for the very exhaustive explanations.

I am addressing the most important items from your message below:
1. My wrist angular input is indeed too slow in the inside corners and I know it is caused by my wrist working inappropriately in these maneuvers.
2. The forces on control surfaces seem to be manageable for me. I have quite strong forearms and palms and still maintain a very fast reaction time and good overall eye-hand-body coordination. It is just the handle input distribution v/s time in the inside corners that is incorrect.
3. My elbow is not straight at any time during the pattern. I take off with my elbow bent to 145-150 deg. and never straighten it until landing. I also keep my knees slightly bent during the pattern, especially while flying six laps inverted. One of the F2B fliers from my local "Polish circuit" said that I move "like a hunting cat" and that it looks that "I am always prepared to react ..". 

My current plane has the logarithmic flaps control system, exactly like Igor's Max Bee II. My plane actually is Max Bee II, based on original computerized Igor's plans. The only deviation from the original is larger nose cross-section to allow for better cooling. The throws of the elevator can be changed using the slider, incorporated in the elevator's horn design.

My latest lines spacing on the handle is 3.98". Bellcrank: 4". Bellcrank arm to pushrod: 0.875". Flaps can move max:(+) (-) 30 deg. while the elevator can move (+) (-) 41 deg. CG was initially selected following Igor's plans. The plane has been trimmed following Paul Walker's Trim Flow 1-6 and it is flying much better than I can fly it.

It would help me tremendously if one of the best, say, four F2b fliers in Poland test fly this plane. Unfortunately, nobody wants to accept the responsibility. Well...I can live with that and slowly but surely will improve.

Lastly and remembering our conversations about ICE and ICE fuels: I did not give up on ICE. My new (but slowly aging) RoJett76 is still patiently waiting for the suitable plane and I will build it as, sort of, vintage stunt model. Perhaps some semi-scale like Windy's planes?

Please see the attached. This is the proposed geometry of my entire right arm in the inside and outside corners.
The angles shown are nominal as, like you probably know, it is almost impossible to maintain the exact bend at some joint without wearing the exoskeleton.

I will visit "At the Handle" and exchange few words with Ted Fancher. There is always something to learn and if you do not learn this means you are dead (but probably do not know about it still eating, sleeping, driving, polluting, paying taxes and going through daily motions, not forgetting saying "I love you" to your wife).

Best Regards,
M


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