PA Beginners! Check this out!

[Joejust]

I strongly hope that all that fly the beginner  PA pattern take a good look at the article on page 3 of the latest issue of CLW. It really makes sense for those of us that want to consider moving up to intermediate.

Joe Just

[Leester]

I for one agree, since I have not yet learned the beginner pattern (almost there) to jump right in and try to learn the full pattern at least for me would be a big problem. I realize all before me have had to do it but they aren't me.

[john e. holliday]

All we need is for someone to make up the patterns and the scoring, then submit them to the contest board.  DOC Holliday

[Dwayne]

I agree as well, the thought of learning the cloverleaf scares the heck out of me...lol   
Dwayne

[captcurt]

Of Course, I have to GUESS at what is being refered to in the original post.  I guess its a secret.

I understand the concern when looking ahead to having to learn the entire pattern.  I think you will find however, that if you compete for a season in Beginner, and spend some time along the way contientiously trying to learn the next elements, you will find it is easier than you think right now.

The reason that is so, is because the Beginner pattern contains nearly all of the manuever "elements" that the full pattern is made of.  ie, inside and outside rounds, inside and outside squares, overhead 8's.  With the addition of inverted flight, and inside triangles, you have all of the basic elements of the full pattern.

The biggest challenge you will face is not the pattern itself, but building and trimming a plane that is capable enough to easily fly the full pattern.

Some of this will come from becoming good at the beginner pattern, but finding a mentor is the real key.

Having recently returned to CL flying, unable to fly inverted, and only able to do round loops and regular wingovers, I understand the Beginner perspective.  It does take concentrated effort.  If it were easy, it would not hold the appeal that it does for those involved for a large portion of their lives.

JMHO,

Curt



PS:  The cloverleaf is actually one of the easier manuevers. 

[Alan Hahn]

As one who somehow made it through, it isn't as bad as it looks (at least from this side!). My suggestion, and which helped me a lot was to get a plane that could survive the transition. For me it was a combination of a Sig Acromaster (15 size plane) and a Ukey35. The Acromaster just seemed to have more bounce than a 35 size plane, and to me was less intimidating, especially in the outside square loop. Once I survived my first few patterns, the Ukey came along and helped me the rest of the way. The best I recall is that it really didn't really suffer any bad crashes.
Anyway, I am not sure if prolonging the agony through intermediate to advanced really would be that big a help. Destroy your planes at one point, not at several!

[Jim Thomerson]

The proposal is in part to change both the PAMPA Intermediate and PAMPA Advanced pattern by leaving out some maneuvers.  I am in agreement that the step from the PAMPA Beginner pattern to a full pattern is a big step. 

The present healthful state of competion PA is largely due to the skill classes;
at least from my perspective.  Without the skill classes, I don't think I would have considered flying stunt.  As it was, local contests started flying the PAMPA skill classes in the upper Midwest.  Around 1977, I bought four Fox stunt 35's for $12.95 each on sale and took up flying stunt.  I got a second in Beginner at a DeKalb IL contest in 1978, flying the full pattern.  At that time there was no beginner pattern.  So starting out, I had mastered the full pattern to a recognizable level, and have not had to learn another pattern as I advanced through Intermediate to Advanced, where I am at my limit and will go no further.  So I have been flying the full pattern for 30 years, and am not pleased with the idea that I should step back to flying a simplified pattern. 

One point to make here.  The PAMPA skill classes provide a route from incompetence to World Champ, as they should.  However they also provide comfortable competition for many of us who have "moved up" as far as we can go.  I would like to see some other solution the transitioning beginners to the full pattern, rather than downgrading the experience and enjoyment of those of us who are at the intermediate and Advanced levels.

[frank carlisle]

Curt hit the nail on the head when he said the biggest challenge to flying the entire stunt pattern is to have a plane that will do it.

I believe that the two things that hold a beginner back are
#1 not having a plane that will fly the pattern
#2 someone to tell him what he needs------Curt already said this but I don't think it can be said too often or often enough.

It isn't always easy to find a mentor. But this forum could easily do the job if the beginner would just ask.
Any of the profile warbirds in the Brodak line up and a Brodak .40 would provide a model capable of getting the beginner through the pattern. The plans and construction pamphlet that comes with the kits make it a pretty easy piece of work to get the plane built.

A huge problem I've seen with beginners is that they seem to think that those of us who are proficient at stunt are just fussy about their planes and that any old plane and an e-bay hand me down will do the job. This just isn't so.
Another thing I've seen with beginners is that they are often shy about flying with guys who are more proficient. That's odd because the guys who are more proficient can be the most help.

Someone flying the beginner pattern already has enough experience to transition both his flying and building skills into the intermediate class and the full pattern. I really don't see where there would be any reason to change anything except maybe the beginners mindset.

[Peter Nevai]

The Cloverleaf is one of the easier manuevers to learn?  ??    ?
Might be if you get past the where to enter, what order, and how to exit phase. Yea it's only a bunch of loops, sort of.

The hour glass never fails to get my throat dry and the triangles are ne better. My problem is that I very rarely had the chance ot fly for any sustained time with competant pilots who were not wrapped up in their own private idaho. So in my minds eye I probably try to make the pattern too small. So when I do my squares they tend to be too small. And to keep them compact the corners have to be sharper, to do this I tend to bang the corners very hard, and yest 5 foot radius corners are possible, but 99% of the time there is also some serious bobble from the over control. The problem is that if I open them up they no longer look square in my minds interpretation of what a square should look like. I.E. sharp corners with distinct strainght verticals and horizontals. Everything elase looks like a misshapen loop from the inside of the circle.

Never had any issues with flying inverted and the like. Also I long ago lost my fear of the ground. (A well built model goes a long way to cure this fear) As either the plane will go exctely where I point it and when or it is too heavy, crooked or something else and it will eat dirt.

Anyway if changes are to be made it should be at the beginners stage, perhaps alternat patterns a beginner can choose from or perhaps another level between beginner and intermediate. But intermediat and levels above probably should not be changes. If you want to go that route then it should be held as a seperate event.

[captcurt]

Hi Peter:

I didn't say it was easy to learn..  It is mostly loops.  It is among the easier manuevers, once you figure out how it progresses because it is fairly easy to maintain the planes energy.  Just keep it gentle and not too small, and it just goes along.  NOT like the Hourglass, which, by comparison is a plane killer.  Very telling of powertrain and trim.

Also--the beginner already has a choice of how he flies the pattern.  You can opt to fly inverted laps or not after the inside loops.  You can start without inverted flight, learn the outside loops "the hard way" (entry going down towards the ground from 45 degrees) (good training for the outside squares to come).  As you pick up the ability to fly inverted, you integrate that into the beginner pattern and fly the rounds just like they will be flown later.

Also, there is certainly nothing wrong with entering and flying intermediate without being able to do all of the manuevers.  I could make a case that if a really good beginner flew and lonly flew an attempt instead of one or even two manuevers, he could be mid-pack at many events. 

The Intermediate event is also alot about learning proper circle protocol, fuel/time management, trimming, etc.

Curt

[frank carlisle]

I said earlier that if you don't have someone nearby who can help you along in stunt that you could get that kind of help here.
Curt is doing a good job of proving me right.

[Peter Nevai]

Actually the beginner pattern always confused me a bit.  Yup it is harder (sacrier    ) to learn outside loops by turning down. But you need to do just that for the figure 8. So no real beak there. At least for me inverted was really easy to pick up. Agreed the clover is more of a psychological obsticle than physically difficult. so I can not figure why some of the hardest elements are still in the beginner pattern. Triangles for instance among others.

Perhaps we should hear from the beginners to find out what would work better for them rather than having the more experienced impose the rules on them. I do agree that the advanced and intermediate classes be left alone.

[Mark Scarborough]

I read the article, Joe and  I have even touched on this subject a time or two if I recall. I have a hard time with this either way, just as I did with our recent change to "profile stunt" instead of P.40. I certainly see a case to be made for a transition from beginner to intermidiate. I do have some issue with changing Inter. I see NO reason to change advanced or expert. I have read arguments both ways about changing the pattern. I suppose I have some "dog in this fight" (as the Dirt says) I was a beginner last year, I am still a beginner but I will be flying Intermidiate this year. I know and am aware that there are some out there that fly stunt that are limited to a certain degree by health and physical issues which may make the transition more difficult. I guess for myself, I dont want to learn 3 or 4 different patterns. One fo the greatest challanges I faced was remembering the darn sequence! Now I would have to learn 3!!!!!  I also want to fly Classic, I love the looks,, and Profile, I am not anywhere close to being competative in classic or profile, but this gives me a chance to compare apples to apples with the big boys. While in Inter I still have a shot to win some all important plastic dust collectors,,, (yeah I DO value them ) For myself I guess after having the good cop bad cop play within myself, I just cant really see much to be gained from changing it. Yeah I might not break as many airplanes THIS year if I didnt have to do all the manuevers, but next year, when I move to advanced, and I am building "real" airplanes, will I break them then?  Probably, and it will hurt more to be sure. Anyone that knows me knows that I just cant "throw it together" to fly, I just gotta spend the time. Another small factor that comes about is judging and scoring, if this change comes about, there will be even less to observe to help decide upon moving up a class. I for one dont buy into the 80% of possible score, I just dont think it is valid.
Ok so now after having said my peice, thanks for letting me spout off, Joe, nothing against ya bud, I guess I just really dont agree enough, but hey, maybe someone can show me the advantage and I will change my mind.

[Keith Spriggs]

JMHO,

Curt

PS:  The cloverleaf is actually one of the easier manuevers. 

I accidentally flew a cloverleaf one time, fortunately I got the plane back under control before it crashed.

[captcurt]

[ I can not figure why some of the hardest elements are still in the beginner pattern. Triangles for instance among others.

Perhaps we should hear from the beginners to find out what would work better for them rather than having the more experienced impose the rules on them. I do agree that the advanced and intermediate classes be left alone.
[/quote]

Hi Peter:

First, triangles are NOT in the beginner pattern, If I implied they were, I was mistaken.

Also, certainly the Beginner's perspective is valuable in all this, but in order to get the full picture of the transition (Beg to Int) one needs the viewpoint from those that have (recently) actually MADE the transition.  To me that is more pertinent information.

Also, for all.  My comments apply to getting a plane safely through the pattern, NOT doing it well.

Even though it seems that some of the Beg manuevers are just throw-aways when you move up, I think that if you consider each turn element as a learning opportunity, then each has a definite purpose for being in there.

Finally, if I haven't said this already, it is possible to fly a "reduced" pattern in Intermediate (or any class) and still score.  Tell the judges ahead of time, put in an "attempt" or placeholder as I call it, and move on.  You could get to mid pack like this without flying all the manuevers.

FWIW

Curt

[Bill Little]

I don't have the CLW, so I don't have a clue as to what's being discussed in that particular article. 

BUT, I did transition from Beginner through Advanced.

I began flying stunt in 1963.  I didn't know ANY particular pattern, just the OTS maneuvers that our "instructor" flew.   Fast forward to about 1992.  I entered my first contest around then.  Flew the Beginner class, and won on about my third time out.  I moved to Intermediate to be able to fly the whole pattern.  As most do, I broke some planes!  But, after a while, I became more confident in my whole "stunt experience" because of having to do all the pattern (and you could actually recognise the maneuvers!) and having to deal with engine run times, etc., which was a challenge.

I moved to Advanced without ever winning in Intermediate, mainly because my oldest son had moved to Intermediate, and I didn't want to fly directly against him! 

I am not a very good Advanced flyer now....... I do not get to practice, and that is REALLY a huge part of becoming coompetitive in Advanced or beyond.  Plus, you really need someone to help you out.

I would be very hesitant to change any of the "Patterns" simply because the program in existance DOES work.  There is absolutely NO WAY to make CLPA an easy to do event.  It is "Precision Aerobatics" and that doesn't come "easy".

Bill <><

[bill marvel]

So starting out, I had mastered the full pattern to a recognizable level, and have not had to learned another pattern as I advanced through Intermediate to Advanced, where I am at my limit and will go no further. 

Jim Thomerson makes an important point, often over looked by both beginning and intermediate fliers.  The rulebook is clear.  If you are only able to fly the pattern with maneuvers that are barely recognizable, you still score points for each maneuver completed.  If you fly the complete pattern, in the proper order with the required two laps between each maneuver, and don't run over time, you earn pattern points, even if each maneuver is barely recognizable (Jim's description).

It may sound like an over-simplification but a competitor can fly loops with 12 foot bottoms and tops at 65 degrees, overheads as big as the circle, and intersections all over the place, and you will score points for each maneuver if all of the elements of each maneuver are present (square loops have four sides; three consecutive inside loops are done, not four or two... etc.).

As you practice and as you build better flying airplanes, you learn to overlap your loops better, improved the size of your maneuvers and get your bottoms a little closer to the deck.  (BTW, bottoms in the 4-6' range must be the toughest for even the experts to become comfortable with!!!)

Good points, Jim.

regards,
bill marvel

     

[phil c]

Makes a lot of sense to me that the beginner, intermediate, advanced, and expert patterns should be different.  Just logical commonsense that as you get better you would do more, tougher maneuvers.  I've seen a lot of beginners with cold feet just completing that pattern.  Going to the current pattern is a big step up in difficulty.  Then when you get to Expert, there is precious little to get any separation in the scores.  It would make a lot of sense for experts to be flying 20 maneuvers, including some really tougher ones, and maybe some alternate ones to be chosen just before the round.

[Peter Nevai]

Well I never knew that you strike off maneuvers but still fly the adjusted flight plan and still get pattern points. If that is the case then there is no reason for a beginner pattern. However if this is just some option that sometimes applies and sometimes not then it does not substitute for a formal path of increasing difficulty. If a person who can fly a given set of maneuvers flawlessly but not the full pattern  can place higher than a individual that can complete the whole pattern but barely recognizeable then that would be enough to make the need for a beginners class moot. I get the feeling that this is not the case.

Scuba diving had a similar challenge years ago, except for very different and safety reasons. At one time to become certified to dive you had to be a conditioned athlete of nearly Olympic level. The training and examination requirements were so rigorous that only the most fit and skilled could attain certification. This was of course that if you were not proficient in the water you could die!

As time went on equipment got better, more reliable and safe to use. But the requirements remained the same. As a result the diving industry was not growing the number of people interested in trying the activity dwindled. Yet the advances in equipment and the understanding of the science involved removed much of the need for the stringent physical testing and training.

The industry saw that to have any growth in the activity it had to be accessible to more people above those that were Olympic class swimmers. So they developed a multi tiered certification system and training. Now anyone who was comfortable in the water and was free of any prohibiting medical condition could experience the wonders of the undersea world. Contrary to the popular belief, swimming has very little to do with diving.

Now there was a huge opposition to these policy changes, primarily from those who had to go through the tortuous training and certification process (The I had to do it so you do to) Ultimately the numbers told the story. The industry thrived, and the modern process of certification was born.

One of the key principals of scuba instruction is not to teach a new diver anything that they do not need to know for their level of certification. There is plenty enough to learn and remember for any certification level. Anything more will just overload the individual and it is essential that they focus on what the need to master for that level. If and when the diver wants to move up and try more demanding dives or UW activities then they enroll in a program for that next level, or specialty.

This form of training and skill progression has been tested and proven with each newly certified diver and the very low accident rate the activity has. Considering that Scuba diving has millions of more participants than CLPA the numbers and form of training cannot be disputed as the penalty of a faulty system is death.

This is where a progressive path of increasing difficulty makes very much sense. 1. it works and works very well. It allows everyone the ability to participate without the unnecessary burden of having to learn something they are not ready for.

It encourages self improvement or allows the individual just to stay where they are at until they feel the urge to move up.

It is also one of the most effective way of learning and retaining knowledge.

The only exception is that you practice your diving skills to prevent a potential fatal accident, and in CLPA to improve your performance. Both are equipment intensive, mental and physical activities.

To shun any changes because those that been there done that, feel that everyone else should do the same is counter productive.

[Bill Little]

After reading the new posts, I have come to this conclusion for my own personal "desires".  I believe there does need to be a class of reduced maneuvers like we have now in Beginner.  There should be an Intermediate Class which should *maybe* be a few maneuvers short of the full pattern.  Just as "Intermediate" means somewhere inbetween.  But I feel that Advanced and Expert should fly the same pattern.  Advanced means, to me, that you can decently fly the whole pattern and are looking to become an "Expert" level flyer eventually.  The classes were developed for Competition, and should be construed as such.  The main problem I see is that there is no "real method" of flyers advancing from class to class.  Seems that there are always some that shun moving up. 

Bill <><

[Peter Nevai]

The intention of my poet was not to attempt to make a direct comparison between training for Scuba certification and CLPA. Scuba is a personal challenge and certainly not competitive. CLPA is competitive by nature. My point was that after much professional study to determine the best way to have people learn and develop new skills was the method chosen by the Scuba industry. (Can anyone not tell that I am a certified Scuba Instructor?) Anyway, like I said before there is so much to learn in both activities that forcing an individual to absorb more knowledge than they are ready for is counter productive and in the case of Scuba can be fatal. Some as other have said will never be able to get the hang of it no matter how hard they try, but at least they are not excluded or discouraged from trying. Om scuba this is determined early at the pool sessions.

Ever wonder what would happen if you took out the two level laps between maneuvers??
Things would move so fast that even the judges would get mental overload, let alone pilots not having the chance to mentally recover. Imagine the potential mayhem that would ensue.

At some subconscious level I am a bit bugged by the fact that today people have it so much easier than I did, it is human nature. Even though lax by earlier standards the physical skills I had to master and demonstrate to become an NAUI instructor was quite a bit tougher than it is today. Still NAUI's criteria for becoming a Scuba instructor ultimately hinges on the answer of one simple question. Would I trust the lives of my loved ones with a Instructor like me. Fail that question and you do not get your instructors cert.

Because of this I can readily understand the resistance to changing the rights of passage in CLPA. CLPA has a hard enough time attracting and retaining participants especially for competition. So for the good of the whole into the future it is wise to reevaluate the price of participation.

Certainly a solution that requires learning things that differ significantly from entry level is idiotic, It has to be a progression that builds on the principals of things learned before and still required later on. Ultimately it may require that the order of things be changed even at the higher levels so a natural progression can be maintained. Perhaps not, It does deserve consideration though and not a flat out refusal.

I've ranted long enough on this subject and probably bored everyone to tears by now. So I'll shut my trap and go back to lurking. I am good at lurking, I like lurking, A lurking we will go, a lurking we will go. Hi Ho the merry............................... OH OH look out!!! What? It's a Lurker       RUNNNNNNNNN!!!

[Eric Viglione]

I don't want to step on any toe's, but it's been kind of funny watching people have a full blown discussion on multiple forums, and not one of them has posted Richards proposal for Intermediate correctly. All this wasted discussion, and no one even knows what was actually proposed. Sigh...

First clue - Richards proposal for a new Intermediate pattern left out a lot more than the Clover. He also dropped the RWO in pref of a regular WO, Dropped the outside squares, only 1 triangle, dropped the horiz sq8, 1 overhead eight, and dropped the Hourglass.

Ok, now resume your discussion on Intermediate.

FYI - In Advanced, Richards proposal drops just the Hourglass and Clover.

Personally, I'm not in favor of messing with Advanced and feel much the same as Bill L. I think there would be a huge exodus of Advanced flyers to Expert if you hobbled the Advanced pattern. I know I'd be one of them...

EricV

[Bill Little]

HI Eric,

Since almost no one KNOWS what the proposal in CLW is, we all just decided to throw out what our opinions are, I guess.  Someone should have copied and pasted the proposal if they really wanted input on what is actually written in CLW.  Evidently, I am not subscribed to CLW as I thought.  I will call and find out for sure........

From what you say, I would be very much in favor of doing something along those lines, as I stated above.  The move from Beginner (why DON"T we call it "Novice"??)  to Intermediate is the biggest jump as far as the schedule goes, of course.  I do not see Intermediate as a stopping point for *most* people.  Advanced, maybe, since the schedule change wouldn't exist in moving up to Expert.  But, there is a large change in the level of flying.  And so many factors such as desire, motivation, economics, time, etc., come into play.

I believe the Beginner pattern is ok.  It has served well and I don't see a great necessity to change it.  I can see changing the Intermediate schedule of maneuvers.  Moving it towards the complete pattern, yet leaving out, or reducing the number of consecutive figures flown such as 1 triangle and maybe 1 square eight.

Lots of options, I guess.

Bill <><

[Phil Coopy]

How about adding bonus points to the beginners for every extra maneuver from the full pattern.

Phil

[Bob Zambelli]

This morning, I looked at the (similar) post on SSW.

It's really generating a lot of interesting dialog - seems like good, bad and in-between.

But, it's good to see people expressing thier ideas - who know what will become of it.

Bob Z.

[Mark Scarborough]

LOL it also generated some real Riff Raff having little if anything to do with the intent of the post. Hm I wonder why most of my time is spent here instead of there?

[bill marvel]

Well I never knew that you strike off maneuvers but still fly the adjusted flight plan and still get pattern points.

You were correct.  It doesn't work quite that way, Peter.  Sometimes, lots of us wish it did!!!

If a competitor wishes to omit a maneuver or maneuvers, Rule 11 (Flight Pattern) says the flier will notify the judge prior to the flight... in order that the judge not be confused about what maneuver is coming next (not an exact quote).  The next sentence says that Pattern Points will be awarded a contestant who completes the entire pattern as listed.  If you accidentally or intentionallly leave out a maneuver, you lose the pattern points.

Hope that is helpful.

regards,
bill marvel

[captcurt]

Hi Bill:

Thanks for clarifying that.  As I understand it, some local events have allowed Intermediate fliers to leave out manuevers and still get the points.

My sugestion has always been to let the judges know but then it is required that you do and "Attempt" or place holder.  some manuevers are more difficult than others to determine whether it was indeed attempted .  We routinely do this for Beginners, sometimes Int if it comes up, but never ever for Adv, Exp, open,..

By rights, it would have to be listed as a rule deviation on the Sanction.

Curt

[Jim Thomerson]

Ted Fancher made almost the same proposal in his last Stunt News column as PAMPA VP last year, and no one commented.  Kind of interesting.   

[Leo Mehl]

Curt, I agree with you, I have known several beginners that have made the transition fom beginner to intrmediate. Some make it quite easily and others it is hard. We have two guys in our club that have had a hard time learning how to make a loop and after repairing the same plane over and over finnaly got it but still have not learned the beginner patern. I think that the beginner pattern is actually the hardest to learn because you have not learned or have a clue how to fly these manevors As an example I had apsolutly no help learning how to make any stunts because of my geograghical location But I did learn them an figured out how to proceed into a stunt without any help. Most of us now live in an area where you can get help.
  As you know this is also a sporting event that has many compeditors and you are competing against other people,so there is a sense of fairness to consider. Giving a compeditor points despite his ability t do a manuveor is not fair to another flyer. and should not be a practice that is even cosidered in this sporting event. Beside I can see this being used as a way to get more points. It's just like a bowler that has a handycap. One night he gets hot an rolls a very good score and th handycap puts him over the top. I have actually done this and the good bowlers are a little unhappy. And they give you no credit for anything because your handycap was the winner an I can see this being used in this matter.
 The beginners that learned thier pattern will definatly have an eisier job of learning Intermediate or the complete pattern. I have seen this happen time and time again.You are right, the beginner learns all the basics and the main thing about leaning th patter is to pick a stunt and practice it over and over until you think you have it an then practice it some more. You also right about having someone there to help you. Have them check your plane or even fly it to make sure it is capable of doing thr whole pattern. and as in all sports there are those that learn faster than others, but ithink the the main gole is to get to advanced and then expert. I took me 57 years to turn to Expert so why be in a hurry. I have had a lot of dissapontments along the way, but when you get past a maeuver you are trying to lean you will say to yourself Sweet!
  I think another thing that is very important is find a friend that flys a good pattern and have him teach you how to build, trim fly your plane. also try to find someone who knows what kind of motor set up for your plane to get it to fly the best you can and remember somewhere along the way you will loose this plane and each one you build will be better than the last. This is a great hobby and it keeps the mind working and we are all capable of flying the way we want. Relax and let it happen. My advice from an old flyer from the past. You must also learn that the first two casses of stunt are not as competative as the last two. So actually the pressure is not as high. Have FUN
 As for rule changes I do not think it is necessary at this level; of competition. Leo Mehl.

[Bill Morell]

The beauty of this forum always shines through. Look at the same topic on SSW. Its a rational discussion here.

[Mark Scarborough]

Amen brutha,, amen,,,,

[Dennis Moritz]

In Intermediate at least, award an attempt for a place holder maneuver. That way pattern points can still be awarded.

[Bill Little]

I have read the article in CLW. Twice.  What a load. Have we forgotten there is a "basic" pattern, then Beginner, then Intermediate, etc.  The pattern is not all that difficult to learn. The difficulty is flying it correctly, a perfect engine run, no run over or running out of fuel in the overheads.
If a person is truly serious about flying the pattern, he/she will learn it, one way or another. A mentor is great, if you can find one. Many of us are the blind leading the blind or fly alone. That's just the way it is for many of us.
I first flew a complete, recognizable pattern in June 1969.  I loved it. Finnally. Now after getting back into CL, I find I need more practice due to old age more than anything else.  I would, no I do find that dumbing down the pattern to be insulting.

The lack of consistency between judges from one area to the next is more frustrating than anything. Far too many times the judges foisted off on Beginner and Intermediate are no better than the flyers, and are often Intermediate flyers too.  But that is a different horse.
This thing about the pattern has been going on since the 60's If I recall correctly.  That was one of the reasons the B-I-A-E set up came about. 

Hi Ty,

I am with you, but I am also looking towards the "to be in the future" Intermediate.   We came up in a different age, as you well know, and we can't go back there no matter how much we would like to!  (and man, would I love to go back to an earlier time! LOL!!)

The Skills Classes from PAMPA have gone a long way to preserving CLPA, I think.  Now, a person who does become interested, and has a competitive bent, can enter a contest at a lower level to get their feet wet.  The jump from Beginner to Intermediate is a fairly large jump under "contest conditions" for the newcomer, generally.   A complete pattern as in Expert/Open.  A "tweak" to a slightly less demanding on the Intermediate level is not a terrible situation to consider with this in mind.  To me, the term "Intermediate" means more or less "in between".  "Advanced" means a "higher level".  It would be logical to me, at least, if a change was made in the Intermdiate class.  That is, if there is any change at all.

I appreciate the fact that we can all discuss this with clean conversation!
Bill <><

[captcurt]

Hi Bill:

After reading and writing alot on this debate here and on the other forumn, I have not changed my opinion.  I really don't think it is such a big step from beginner to intermediate.  I now believe that perhaps what is going on here, is that many folks think it can go quicker or easier than it really is.

What I mean is, if the expectation exists with the begginner that he is going to be able to learn a few of the manuevers, roughly go through the beginner pattern and enter "a couple" of contests then move up, this is where difference lies in my perspective.

On the other hand, if a beginner spends enough time thoroghly learning the beg pattern, going to enough events to Win or place in several, even the Nats, THEN the step up to Intermediate is not so big.

Also, regarding the bloodbath on the other forumn--what really sparked it off , IMO, was the "E" word.  It just seems to come up over and over.

But I can tell one and all that the elite of this sport are some of the most helpful, friendly, and patient, individuals I have ever been around.  With only a couple of exceptions  since I got back to flying in 02, I have been in contact with hundreds of people--they all were the same--generous with their knowledge and time.

I have always, however, been respectful of their competition time--never grilling themat the wrong time, etc.  Common courtesy to me.

Anyway--It angers me when guys use the E word because I have seen so much evidence that it just is not the norm.

Curt

[Garf]

I wonder how many people pushed the panic button when the pattern changed in 1952?

[john e. holliday]

I have several grand kids just getting a start in this CL competition.  They will be intered in Beginner even tho they do not know how to do a loop let alone the rest of the beginner pattern.  I do not fly Int. anymore and will not as I can do the full AMA pattern even tho it is not that great.  Now back in 52 if we would have had the forums we have today, we would probably still be flying the old time pattern.  I coached my flying partner into the full pattern before his first contest and did very well in Int.  All it takes is determination and desire.  As I see it now, we could put all the Int, Adv and Exp flyers on one circle with one set of judges and simplify a lot of things.  Like me running from one end of the field to the other to fly and help.  DOC Holliday

[Bob Reeves]

I wonder how many people pushed the panic button when the pattern changed in 1952?

In 52 they didn't have the internet so probably 90% of the stunt flyers didn't even know till the new rule book was published.

[Jim Thomerson]

Actually, in the good old days, the new stunt patterns were published in Model Airplane News, as well as in the AMA rule book. I have a copy of MAN with the 1953 pattern. 

[billbyles]

How about adding bonus points to the beginners for every extra maneuver from the full pattern.

Phil

If you are ready to add extra maneuvers from the full pattern then you are ready to move up to the Intermediate class.  How many maneuvers should you be allowed to add...come on, there will always be the "butterflies" in the belly when moving up a class, learn to enjoy them.