PA-48...interesting possible semi-scale stunter?

[Dave_Trible]

I happened across a story today about a later-day P-51 Mustang that almost replaced the A-10 Warthog!  A gentleman bought the rights to the P-51 in 1956.  In the early 70s he went to work with Piper Aircraft and produced the PA-48, some with turbo.  It appears they all had the wing tip tanks.  I know the original P-51 had a very large fuel tank behind the pilot.  The Piper version did away with the radiator on the bottom and likely eliminated the big fuselage tank.  I am told a full tank there made the airplane hard to fly so pilots tried to burn that off first on the way to a mission to get the airplane in better trim for combat.  The wing tip tanks would improve that but I'm sure hurt the roll response,  however these were now intended for ground attack (actually the ORIGINAL mission for the Allison P-51A Apache) so that wouldn't be so important.  Anyway it seems an interesting possible semi scale that wouldn't require much stretching for those Mustang fans.

Dave

[Dave_Trible]

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[Dave_Trible]

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[Dave_Trible]

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[Robert Whitley]

I remember seeing a Cavalier Mustang with tip tanks in the late seventies.
Was that a one off or a production option?

Just curious but it looked pretty cool.

[Dave_Trible]

There were photos of quite a few of these and the four view is of a version apparently used by the Israeli air force.

[Steve Helmick]

A MIG-3 might be another possibility!    Steve

[Dennis Leonhardi]

The Cavalier Mustang is a sharp-looking warbird; would you shorten the nose?

The Vietnam War especially prompted a lot of interest in COIN (Counter-Insurgency) Aircraft, and several others would probably also make good semi-scale subjects.


Dennis

[Dan McEntee]

  Wasn't the guy promoting this airplane also with Cavalier group? Been along time since I read up on that. Al Rabe would know, I think he ferried them f or delivery of was test pilot for them. Might be some thing about it on his disc set?
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Dennis Leonhardi]

Pretty sure you're right Dan, I believe he ferried them.

Dennis

[Brett Buck]

The Cavalier Mustang is a sharp-looking warbird; would you shorten the nose?

   There seems like there are two versions of it. The first picture, the nose still seems to be nicely shaped like a P-51 with the scoop carved off, the side view and the drawing have a sort of "hose nose" that really looks awkward, like someone took an existing design and tacked on an incongruous part. Which seems to be the story. Its really long for the obvious reason - the turboprop is much much lighter than an Allison or Merlin.

      Brett

[Dan McEntee]

   If I get really bored during this down time (that hasn't happened yet!) I'll have to look through old Air Progress and Air Classics magazines for info on these, unless some one happens to have the actual publishing dates. I think I recall a lot written up on these around that time with a several photos. This was about the time the warbird movement took off and as prices climbed it might have been to their advantage to go into production of standard air frame parts. As it is private companies have managed to resurrect many Mustangs from almost nothing, sometimes just starting with a data plate and a few bits and pieces. I'm surprised that no one is flying one of the turbine powered versions just to be different. At least I haven't heard of an airworthy turbine powered Mustang.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[john e. holliday]

Looks like a candidate fot electric power with the slim and long nose.

[Dave_Trible]

I thought that one would be well suited to electric too.  This does have an ‘different ‘ look to it.  A few years ago here at the old Richards Gebaur AFB next to some workshops were three old derelict DC 3s.  Two of they had these long nose turbo engines mounted and THAT looked strange.

Dave

[Dan McEntee]

I thought that one would be well suited to electric too.  This does have an ‘different ‘ look to it.  A few years ago here at the old Richards Gebaur AFB next to some workshops were three old derelict DC 3s.  Two of they had these long nose turbo engines mounted and THAT looked strange.

Dave

    If you want to know more about the turbin powered DC-3's there is a you tube channel called Save-A-Plane put on by the guys at Buffalo Air up in Alaska. There was a reality show called Ice Pilots about these guys. Pretty interesting. Anyway, the turbine DC-3 is built by a company in Oshkosh called Bassler, I believe it is spelled. The episode on Save A Plane goes into what it takes to convert it. I think the basics are, they don't just do a conversion on a whim, that the DC-3 in it's original, stock form is still a VERY cost effective way to move cargo and passengers. I think they pretty much wait until they have an air frame that is not considered air worthy, or too expensive to get airworthy in their stock configuration, Then it becomes a candidate for conversion, because they have to extend the fuselage to accommodate where the props will run. There needs to be a space where in case a prop blade is thrown off, it can't hit any one or anything critical in the fuselage.  So Bassler engineered the fuselage update and they add about 3 feet, I think behind the cockpit rearward. The total cost of the upgrade runs upwards of 3 million dollars, might be more than that,  but the cost can be recouped in a reasonable amount of time if you can keep the airplane hauling freight. Most small air freight companies just can't afford that kind of lay out and have an airplane out of service that is already making money. It's a fine line to go one way or the other. But Goonie Birds will live on one way or the other!, My first airplane ride was in a DC-3 that the St. Louis Post-Dispatch owned called The Weatherbird. It was coming off it's annual inspection and was going for a check flight and  my uncle Ed knew the FBO owners and arranged the ride for my family one Thanksgiving. That may have help set the hook of airplane addiction even deeper than it already was
    Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Trostle]

    If you want to know more about the turbin powered DC-3's there is a you tube channel called Save-A-Plane put on by the guys at Buffalo Air up in Alaska.
  Dan McEntee

So, are we going to see a semi scale DC-3 with funny looking engines stuck on?

Kieth

[Ed Carlaw]

Missionary Flights International uses three of the turbine DC-3's to fly cargo between Florida and Haiti and sometimes the Dominican Republic. They are some sharp looking airplanes. Ed.

[Dennis Leonhardi]

So, are we going to see a semi scale DC-3 with funny looking engines stuck on?

Kieth

In the last couple of years I sold tens of thousands of postcards for the estate of an airline enthusiast.  Wish I had scanned some of the DC-3s ... you wouldn't believe all the mods and "upgrades" that have been done, some of them ugly as sin!

As McEntee writes, "... Goonie Birds will live on one way or the other!"  It's such a sensible, sturdy, basic airframe.  I've seen many turbo upgrades, and Prime Video offers 73 episodes of Ice Pilots if I'm not mistaken.

Dennis

[Steven Kientz]

 I was stationed at Eglin AFB in the early '80s. I remember seeing the turboprop mustang there. I was a heavy equipment operator and we maintained the bombing ranges and roads around them. Distinctly remember running a flightline sweeper as the 'stang was taxiing, weaving like a drunken sailor(obligatory dig @Navy) since forward vision while taxiing was nonexistent. Sounded awesome in the air.

later
Steve

[TigreST]

I don’t think I read this above but. The PA-48 was called the “Enforcer” at one time or another, I believe.

[Brett Buck]

So, are we going to see a semi scale DC-3 with funny looking engines stuck on?

   Apparently, at 1:1 scale.

    Since you used to work in the turbine engine power generation business, I am sure you would understand why they are doing it, and the problems of trying to keep 28-cylinder radials designed in 1936 fed and working in the year 2020. It may not even be possible in the near future, if 100LL goes away. Jet-A you can get anywhere.

     Brett

[Mike Griffin]

I would think it would be easy enough to modify a P51D kit to make it look like a PA- 48 Enforcer.  I may try that.

Mike

[Tim Wescott]

So, are we going to see a semi scale DC-3 with funny looking engines stuck on?

Kieth

Do a web search on "DC-3 turboprop".  Most cough up the name "Basler" -- like this one: https://dc3dakotahistory.org/turbo-power/turbo-power-keeps-some-dc-3s-alive-and-flying/

[Steve Helmick]

    If you want to know more about the turbin powered DC-3's there is a you tube channel called Save-A-Plane put on by the guys at Buffalo Air up in Alaska. There was a reality show called Ice Pilots about these guys. Pretty interesting. Anyway, the turbine DC-3 is built by a company in Oshkosh called Bassler, I believe it is spelled. The episode on Save A Plane goes into what it takes to convert it. I think the basics are, they don't just do a conversion on a whim, that the DC-3 in it's original, stock form is still a VERY cost effective way to move cargo and passengers. I think they pretty much wait until they have an air frame that is not considered air worthy, or too expensive to get airworthy in their stock configuration, Then it becomes a candidate for conversion, because they have to extend the fuselage to accommodate where the props will run. There needs to be a space where in case a prop blade is thrown off, it can't hit any one or anything critical in the fuselage.  So Bassler engineered the fuselage update and they add about 3 feet, I think behind the cockpit rearward. The total cost of the upgrade runs upwards of 3 million dollars, might be more than that,  but the cost can be recouped in a reasonable amount of time if you can keep the airplane hauling freight. Most small air freight companies just can't afford that kind of lay out and have an airplane out of service that is already making money. It's a fine line to go one way or the other. But Goonie Birds will live on one way or the other!, My first airplane ride was in a DC-3 that the St. Louis Post-Dispatch owned called The Weatherbird. It was coming off it's annual inspection and was going for a check flight and  my uncle Ed knew the FBO owners and arranged the ride for my family one Thanksgiving. That may have help set the hook of airplane addiction even deeper than it already was
    Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

Buffalo Air is out of Yellowknife, NT, which is Canada and not Alaska...a pleasant 16 hour drive N. of Edmonton, Alberta (if you're lucky!). I watch the show "Ice Pilots" occasionally on The Weather Channel. No episodes are recent, but it is what it is. I am constantly wondering why they don't buy a couple of C-130's and 86 the Electras and C-46's...those look like a lot of problems.  Turbine power makes a ton of sense in their cold climate.... -30 degrees is often mentioned but I am not certain if that's C or F, and not sure it matters a lot which scale is used in that temperature range. GVT lives there, for some reason I'm not clear on, other than being able to hunt moose and caribou from his hot tub.  Steve

[Dan McEntee]

Buffalo Air is out of Yellowknife, NT, which is Canada and not Alaska...a pleasant 16 hour drive N. of Edmonton, Alberta (if you're lucky!). I watch the show "Ice Pilots" occasionally on The Weather Channel. No episodes are recent, but it is what it is. I am constantly wondering why they don't buy a couple of C-130's and 86 the Electras and C-46's...those look like a lot of problems.  Turbine power makes a ton of sense in their cold climate.... -30 degrees is often mentioned but I am not certain if that's C or F, and not sure it matters a lot which scale is used in that temperature range. GVT lives there, for some reason I'm not clear on, other than being able to hunt moose and caribou from his hot tub.  Steve

      Buffalo Joe's son Mikey does a You Tube show called Save A Plane and I have watch a few bits and pieces of some of those episodes and they are more current,. He goes into this exact subject on one and explains the reasons why the do not have any C-130 and they stick with the Electra and even the C-46. It has mainly to do with cost. These guys operate on a very thin profit margin, like us regular people do living paycheck to paycheck. Most often lack of work means that the airplanes have to sit on the ramp and if they ain't flying they ain't making any money and you can't justify any used C-130 to operate that way, and that is why they stick with the aircraft that they have and similar types. It's all about cost effectiveness. I hope to be able to spend a bit more time searching that show out and watching them in full in the near future, they are pretty interesting

     Hi Tim;
        I mentioned Basler in my post on May 8th. They are based at the airport in Oshkosh at the north end of the field, if you are ever in Wisconsin. It's worth stopping in at the EAA museum, and then driving around to scoping out what Basler is working on. They are the originator of the turbine mod and did all the engineering and certification work for the design. It is explained on the same show as being an pretty expensive venture. There is just a lot of time that they can not fly for what ever reasons, ( and there are many) and if it ain't flying you can't make that big finance payment. I think that has been the way of the world in operating any kind of scheduled or non scheduled airline that far up north for a long,. long time. If you like old movies with airplanes in them, check out "Captains of the Clouds" with Jimmy Cagney in it, about bush pilots back in the late 30's . Youy will see a lot of similarities!
      Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Tim Wescott]

.... -30 degrees is often mentioned but I am not certain if that's C or F, and not sure it matters a lot which scale is used in that temperature range. ...

-40C = -40F, so no, it doesn't make a lot of difference.  -40 K would be pretty astonishing, but I don't think it gets that cold.

[Fredvon4]

I take some (very minor) umbrage at this statement: from the OP

"---about a later-day P-51 Mustang that almost replaced the A-10 Warthog!"

As an A-10 Wart Hog close ground support and TANK BUSTER fan, with cross trained* JAAT **experience

I feel safe to say no variant of a P-51  ever could carry the GAU8 30 MM and Ammo...the A 10 was actually built around that MONSTER cannon

*I was Army AH-1xxx Cobra armament trained and did many JAAT exercises with A 10s from Mindenhal England in the late 80s on Finthen Army Airfield, Mainz Germany

**A joint air attack team (JAAT) operation is a coordinated attack by rotary- and fixed- wing aircraft, normally supported by artillery or naval surface ships

FWIIW I am a big P51 guy with bucket list to fly Crazy Horse

https://www.stallion51.com/mustang-flight-ops/crazy-horse/

[john e. holliday]

iIf I was a pilot and could afford it, the A-10 would be my plane of choice minus the big cannon.  Watching a pair of them at an air show years ago they took off.  They made passes in front of the crowd.  Then one of them came down in front of us making a simulated attack.  I loved the way he rolled up and over to see results.   As he was flying away the announcer asked what happened to the other A-10.   There was silence as he said don't look up as we have had it.   It was making a vertical dive right down at us.  It was so quiet as he pulled out to leave the area and land.  But to watch the ailerons and control surfaces move was awesome.

[dave siegler]

a couple of things. 

Basler has 2 companies.  Basler flight service the FBO and Basler turbo conversion. The conversion work got large enough that they started a second company. 

Basler turbo conversion does the DC3 conversions and is on the SE side of the airport. 

you can see off in the woods to the east a few parts piles.   SC3's waiting to be re manufactured.   

https://www.google.com/maps/@43.9724686,-88.5418834,547m/data=!3m1!1e3