Author Topic: P-40K Black Tigre (Read 9028 times)

t michael jennings · « **on:** February 26, 2010, 06:56:42 PM »

Gentlemen,

Attached is my latest Control Line aircraft. It is a Berkley Model P-40 Black Tigre.

Have not flown the aircraft yet.

This is a scratch built aircraft. In order to get everyting in the cowl, had to use a Sullivan Slant 4 ounce tank. Even doing this, I had to lengthen the nose 0.3 inch. The wings are fully sheeted. Also, designed and used a removable Landing Gear.

Below are the particulars on the weight of the subassembles.

Engine system and Fuel Tank; 12.6 oz
Complete wing and Landing Gear 14.6 oz
Fuselage assembly 9.0 oz
Rudder 0.4 oz
Horizontal Stabilizer 2.0 oz
Cover and paint 4.4 oz
Tip and CG weight 2.2 oz

Total Weight 45.2 oz

Also, attached is theaircraft the P-40 K is painted after.

t michael jennings

Knoxville, TN

Rod Lamer · « **Reply #1 on:** February 26, 2010, 07:00:59 PM »

Very nice! What are the specs on it, and what engine did you use?

Paul Wood · « **Reply #2 on:** February 26, 2010, 07:16:44 PM »

Michael,
Is this the same plane as Bob Elliott's Black Tiger that won the '53 Nats? I'm about to order the plans for that plane and I thought it had wing flaps. How did you do the cowling? Balsa? Very nice airplane.
Paul

FLOYD CARTER · « **Reply #3 on:** February 26, 2010, 10:30:20 PM »

Is this plane now eligible for OTS? There was some question about it, and Tom Dixon seems to know this plane was designed/flown prior to Jan. 1953. Sounds reasonable enough to me.

Floyd

david beazley · « **Reply #4 on:** February 27, 2010, 05:10:56 AM »

I am currently building a Black Tiger from plans i got from Fullscaleplans.com. The are reprinted from February 1953 Air Trails magazine, designed by Robert Elliot. Walter Umland is working on a kit of it.

Bob Whitely · « **Reply #5 on:** February 27, 2010, 07:49:00 AM »

Nah, There was never any doubt that this particular model was OTS legal. I've seen plenty of them around and they are a very good flying plane. Bring it to VSC and you can fly it in both classes. RJ

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #6 on:** February 27, 2010, 08:23:43 AM »

T-Micahel
Great job. Black Tigers are good flyers, and I like that you took the time to seek out a diferent paint scheme. I just came in from blowing/shoveling 2 feet of "chance of flurries". Spring seems too far away but bet you are flying before I am - and I am looking forward to your flight report!

t michael jennings · « **Reply #7 on:** February 27, 2010, 09:05:25 AM »

Gentlemen,

This is the Berkeley Models P-40 Warhawk. The plans indicate the Flaps can be movable or fixed. I went with the fixed Flaps.
Span 45.5 in
Wing Area 448 in sq

The plans were purchased from AMA.

It is built as close to the plans as my eyes could read the ruler. I did lengthen the nose 0.3 inches to get the fuel tank installed. There is not much room for the piping and air flow to cool the engine. The fuel tank is a Sullivan Slant 4 oz plastic on Uniflow.

The external landing gear matches the plans. I made the landing gear to be able to remove it from the aircraft.

The engine has been in my stable of engines for 30+ years. It is an OS MAX 35-S. It still has good compression and is well broke-in.

To locate the CG per the plans, it needed 1.2 oz of lead in the tail.

It snowed on Thursday here in Sunny Knoxville, TN. Friday it was 19 degrees. Too cold to go flying.

My next project will be the Charles Parrott P-47. Then I plan to build the Charles Parrott Ryan S-T.

t michael jennings
Knoxville, TN

Paul Taylor · « **Reply #8 on:** February 27, 2010, 10:42:40 AM »

Hey Michael,
Looks good.
You should bring it to the Memphis Stunt Classic next Fall. Just a little 6 hr drive down I-40.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #9 on:** February 27, 2010, 10:51:10 AM »

T Michael

I look forward to seeing those two Charles Parrot' birds you mention. Incidently, if you need them I can scan of the original articles for those two birds and his excellent P-40.

peabody · « **Reply #10 on:** February 27, 2010, 12:33:35 PM »

To clarify a bit: the Black Tiger was a major bone of contention between Tom Dixon and John Miske. John (the Father of OTS and principle crafter of the rules) held that the cut-off should be "kitted or published" prior to 1 January, 1953.

Since the model was published in the February issue, it was, by John's standards, not eligible. Tom Dixon held that the publication lead time would make the model eligible.

There was an impasse until PAMPA changed their OTS rules to the current, which certainly allow the Black Tiger and other models that were unpublished or unkitted for decades....the Humongous, Jamison, 12, 13 etc. all comply fully with PAMPA rules.

The Garden State Circle Burners adapted the PAMPA eligibility rules well over a decade ago...we like to be as inclusive as possible,

Did I mention that the 40th Anniversary of Old Time Stunt is this year? We will celebrate it where it all began (at the GSCB field in Lincoln Park, NJ) on October 3rd.

The GSCB continues to use the original scoring for OTS.....

Come join us!

Juan Valentin · « **Reply #11 on:** February 27, 2010, 01:13:00 PM »

At one time SIG used to kit that design as the P-40 Warhawk by Bob Elliot. I have a kit plan book that was sold by the AMA compiled by Frank Ehling that shows it. The plan shows separate pushrods going to the flaps and elevator. Not a hard plane to scratchbuild.
Juan

Balsa Butcher · « **Reply #12 on:** February 27, 2010, 01:35:19 PM »

You probably know this but Lazar Works (a SH advertiser) offers a short kit of the Parrot P-47.

Hoss Cain · « **Reply #13 on:** February 27, 2010, 09:02:57 PM »

Quote from: Juan Valentin on February 27, 2010, 01:13:00 PM

At one time SIG used to kit that design as the P-40 Warhawk by Bob Elliot. I have a kit plan book that was sold by the AMA compiled by Frank Ehling that shows it. The plan shows separate pushrods going to the flaps and elevator. Not a hard plane to scratchbuild.
Juan

Yes, it was one of the few models that SIG continued with after they bought the Berkeley line from Duke Fox after he picked the line up from Berkeley when they went under.

There have been a few kits showing up in the auctions and they do go pricey.

I built and "unbuilt"

5 of those kits in the time period of 1953 through about 1957. A Fox 29 powered each.
I learned a lot, like how to make a pushrod straight and stiff, make a bellcrank mount stronger than a pull-test, and how to fly the stunt pattern back then. I could really build fast then. I could start such a kit and fly it 4 days later, with silkspan and dope finish. OTOH I wasn't aware of "appearance points".

In fact in one 9 day period, late Aug. -early Sep. 1953, I attacked 4 kits, Berk. P-40 - Fox .29, Berk. P-47 - O&R 60, Sterling Waco Bipe - Forester 31, and a Scientific Cub - OK Cub .O74. On the 9th day I flew all 4 airplanes.
That P-40 started something that lasted for a number of years. I still have old original plans -- well, uhhh!

BTW, Mr. Jennings, NICE AIRPLANE, MAN. Good Luck with it.

john e. holliday · « **Reply #14 on:** February 28, 2010, 07:59:00 AM »

Peabody, how could John M. argue with the article when there were pictures of the plane and the hardware it collected?

De Hill · « **Reply #15 on:** February 28, 2010, 08:39:59 AM »

Doc, John Miske wrote the Old Time Stunt rules.

John said that:

The design must have been available in KIT or PLAN form prior to December 31, 1952.

The Black Tiger was not kitted or plans published prior to December 31, 1952.

That's why The GSCB rules disallowed the Black Tiger.

Jim Thomerson · « **Reply #16 on:** February 28, 2010, 08:48:25 AM »

Just to make a comment. I have found, by accession dates at the University of Texas Engineering Library, that the January, 1953 issues of Model Airplane News and Air Trails came out in December 1952. Not that it really matters.

Tom Weedon · « **Reply #17 on:** February 28, 2010, 01:24:54 PM »

The Berkeley Kit known as the "P-40 Warhawk", was first advertized in Model Airplane News, March, 1953. In the ad it states that it IS Bob Elliot's Black Tiger. It won 1st in Open and 1st in Senior at the 1952 Tangerine Internationals. In the ad is a picture of Bob and his BLACK TIGER. The only changes to the Berkeley model is that it has an aluminum cowl and a bracing wire is removed from the landing gear. I built mine with a balsa cowl (exactly to print, except I left off the wire brace on the landing gear). The Berkeley Kit known as the P-40 Warhawk IS OT legal PERIOD!!!!

EddyR · « **Reply #18 on:** February 28, 2010, 02:31:13 PM »

Everone quotes John's original rules but if you ask him you will find out that he is quite flexable about the cut off date. Many years ago I sent for some plans and asked him a question about the Houn Doug that appeared in the Jan 1953 issue of Air Trails plan #153. I have his letter which he said yes you could use the Houn Dog in OTS as the magazine was available before Dec 31 1952. I used a Houn Dog for a year but moved on to better planes. I am building another HD at this time but not for OTS but as a fun plane as I had several as a kid and it is a great trainer and sport flyer. We added flaps but that was around 1955.The P-40 thing was settled years ago and it is legal for OTS.
Ed

Will Davis · « **Reply #19 on:** February 28, 2010, 05:47:03 PM »

Michael,

Great looking plane ,. I like the scale paint job, These models fly very well and you have picked a great powerplant for it, I use the 35s in my classic plane the Curtis Comer design , Skydancer . By the way , Curtis Comer flew with Bob Elliot , Walt Pyron and several others late 40's and competed in the 50's with a Black Tiger .I ahve a Team picture somewhere of all of their Black Tigres

Bring it to the Huntersville NC contest May 1 and 2 . only about 4 hours from you.. It is OTS legal...

Will Davis

Bob Whitely · « **Reply #20 on:** February 28, 2010, 05:59:56 PM »

This is exactly why PAMPA adjusted and updated Johns' rules to include models that were built before the Dec 52 cutoff date and that there was proof of same. That is also why PAMPA OTS rules are used nearly exclusevely except in the outer farmlands and distant outlying enclaves with very few fliers. It is painfully obvious that John just plain didn't think about this particular circumstance that some of you feel is written in stone and cannot be abridged or rectified. The very idea that the model is ineligable 'cause it was not kitted or published is like saying it never existed. Ludicrous to the extreme don't you think? I'm sure the folks that think this way are serious members of the "Flat Earth Society." There have been times when I felt empathetical towards them but when I was about six years old I discovered the definition of logic and never looked back. I'm just saying...RJ

Bill Little · « **Reply #21 on:** February 28, 2010, 07:45:10 PM »

Michael, it looks great!

BTW: Bob Hunt published the Black Tiger in his Classic Series while he was at Flying Models. It had some LEGAL updates to help with the tank, LG mounting, etc..

You will love the Parrott P-47. It is a great flying plane. I would suggest a good 40 to power it, as it can put on weight.

I have flown mine with a Fox 35, OS 40FP, and a McCoy 40 from Tom Lay. The 40s did a lot better than the Fox in powering it. If I were to build a new one, I would use an Aero Tiger 36. AND, I would get Eddie's laser cut short kit (Action Hobbies/Laser Works).

Big Bear

john e. holliday · « **Reply #22 on:** March 01, 2010, 01:16:44 PM »

Do we really think that John M. would really care or get upset over rather a design was OTS legal or not as long as the pilot was having fun flying. What gets me is when someone makes a drastic change to an OT design so it will land better. Maybe we need to require grass circles only. That is where I get the best flying out of the All American Senior.

De Hill · « **Reply #23 on:** March 02, 2010, 10:04:46 AM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on March 01, 2010, 01:16:44 PM

Do we really think that John M. would really care or get upset over rather a design was OTS legal or not as long as the pilot was having fun flying. What gets me is when someone makes a drastic change to an OT design so it will land better. Maybe we need to require grass circles only. That is where I get the best flying out of the All American Senior.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Doc,

John Miske would care if someone was flying a design that was not OTS legal. In the original Object and Intent of the Old Time Stunt Event, John wrote the following:

1." To perpetuate and preserve the model aircraft designs used during the era in which stunt flying was advancing from the early Freestyle events to the precision aerobatic flying of today."

PAMPA OTS rules say this: 2.0 Philosophy: Old Time Stunt offers stunt flyers an additional event intended for enjoyment for more relaxed competition and for nostalgic recreation of the era which led to modern stunt. Because it's figures are simpler than those required for modern precision aerobatics. Old Time Stunt may attract new flyers to CL aerobatics events and competition.
"Above all the event should be fun."

DOC, the Pampa rules say that "ABOVE ALL, IT SHOULD BE FUN."

John Miske's original rules did NOT say that.

So YES, John would not like to see an illegal aircraft fly in Old Time Stunt.

De Hill

Brett Buck · « **Reply #24 on:** March 02, 2010, 12:00:20 PM »

Quote from: Bob Whitely on February 27, 2010, 07:49:00 AM

Nah, There was never any doubt that this particular model was OTS legal. I've seen plenty of them around and they are a very good flying plane. Bring it to VSC and you can fly it in both classes. RJ

I generally agree, but in fact, the Black Tiger was the first big bone of contention that I had heard about for OTS. It's NOT legal in the original GSCB rules. I don't know the current status under GSCB - if I had to guess I would guess no, but I am sure we will get a very rapid clarification on the topic...

The PAMPA rules were split off from the original to accommodate the Black Tiger (and other similar cases) after the, uh, "spirited discussion" on the topic led by Tom Dixon was persuasive - thus leading to the current situation where numerous unpublished and unkitted airplanes are permitted if you can prove they existed before the date with sufficient detail to build it under the other limitations. So now it is legal under the "and designed" part of the rules.

Of course, whether everybody likes that or not is another matter. It's very clear from recent events that the spirited discussion is still ongoing. As I mentioned before, of all the topics I have dealt with in PAMPA over the years, OTS rules have been BY FAR the most persistent and anger-provoking. Even more than BOM or PAMPA Politics, taken in total.

Brett

peabody · « **Reply #25 on:** March 02, 2010, 03:32:52 PM »

Hi Brett...
I know that I speak for the VAST majority of GSCB members in saying that PAMPA eligibility is fine at our contests....
We kling to the scoring that John and the rest adopted: not the "K-factor-ish" that PAMPA uses.

BTW....we are celebrating the 40th anniversary of OTS at the GSCB field on October 3rd, 2010.....

Also...bravo on the rules change proposals you are proposing!

john e. holliday · « **Reply #26 on:** March 02, 2010, 08:15:33 PM »

Too bad to get the real word from the one and only John Miske as to how Old Time has developed over the short 40 years. I was very privelaged to meet him at one of the Chickopee NATS way back when.

De Hill · « **Reply #27 on:** March 02, 2010, 08:23:03 PM »

Doc,

What do you think I said?

I didn't understand the first sentence you wrote.

De Hill

Ward Van Duzer · « **Reply #28 on:** March 03, 2010, 09:04:09 AM »

From my early years at the GSCB...

This is what I understood directly from JM he wanted out of the "Published or Kitted" rule...

1. An unequvical cut-off date. (has anyone ever proven that the Feb 1953 Airtrails was on the news stands prior to Jan. 1, 1953?)

2. John also wanted that all aircraft designs to be used in OTS were available to ALL MODELERS by Dec 31, 1952.
"Available to all modelers" was the key. And not, IMHO, an unreasonable thought.

W.

De Hill · « **Reply #29 on:** March 04, 2010, 06:27:40 AM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on March 02, 2010, 08:15:33 PM

Too bad to get the real word from the one and only John Miske as to how Old Time has developed over the short 40 years. I was very privelaged to meet him at one of the Chickopee NATS way back when.

Doc,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I talked to John Miske two days ago. He told me that He would NOT like for illegal airplanes to fly Old Time Stunt.

I notice that there are several people who will post on this board and tell you what John Miske thinks about various subjects.

They do not check with John, though, and are wrong the vast majority of the time..

john e. holliday · « **Reply #30 on:** March 04, 2010, 05:59:16 PM »

Now we have it second hand from the man his self.

De Hill · « **Reply #31 on:** March 04, 2010, 06:13:22 PM »

Quote from: john e. holliday on March 04, 2010, 05:59:16 PM

Now we have it second hand from the man his self.

Why don't you call him Doc?

peabody · « **Reply #32 on:** March 04, 2010, 08:55:11 PM »

John is a stickler about OTS modifications: he has denied people from competing for wing-mounted landing gear when the original came with fuse mounted. His vision and stick-to-it-of-ness are the reason that the event succeeded. Early on, his insistence that the cut offs be as originally written kept the integrity of the event from becoming clouded....

We all should thank him....

EddyR · « **Reply #33 on:** March 26, 2010, 01:08:00 PM »

Today looking through some old time plans I came across the letter I refered to above from John Miske 6/9/86 dealing with the Houn Dog that was in the Jan 1953 AT. He has no problem with it.
Ward- note he even makes the comment that the copyright date is 1952
EddyR

jim ivey · « **Reply #34 on:** April 09, 2012, 03:43:06 PM »

sorry all. I didn't mean to start a big bruha ha!! I was just trying to clarify the difference between the midwest and Berkley p-40's the midwest is smaller28" wing. Berkley is 48" Jim

Mike Keville · « **Reply #35 on:** April 09, 2012, 07:16:42 PM »

Quote from: jim ivey on April 09, 2012, 03:43:06 PM

sorry all. I didn't mean to start a big bruha ha!! I was just trying to clarify the difference between the midwest and Berkley p-40's the midwest is smaller28" wing. Berkley is 48" Jim

Actually, the Berkeley P-40 (aka "Black Tiger") had a wingspan of 45", not 48".

The Midwest kits (meaning the profiles here) spanned 33" and 48".

RandySmith · « **Reply #36 on:** April 09, 2012, 09:52:57 PM »

The P-40 Kit *was* kitted before Dec 31 1952, and the Kit was advertised in a magazine that was out before Dec 1952 . It has been shown that the magazine was out before Dec 1952. Even though It has a 1953 date.

Randy