stunthanger.com
General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Hoss Cain on October 01, 2009, 12:51:24 PM
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Gentlemen, fellow Model Airplane Enthusiasts:
There is far more to our sport than most aeromodelers ever realize.
Without the AMA, we would be wandering in the wilds. Regardless of your personal feelings be they strong supporter of the AMA down to the "It has to be only for me" attitude, the AMA is what keeps the sport/hobby together. I have been in this activity since about 1945 and the AMA has been the center of keeping this business going. AMA is our voice to the world. It is far more than just insurance.
Now OTOH, I am probably the largest and meanest critic of AMA that exists. That is rather like when my young son came to me one day, many years ago and asked me why I did not prevent his friend from doing things that I prevented my son from doing. My answer was, "You are my son. Your friend has a dad to take care of him. However it is YOU, SON, that I love and care for so very much. Your safety and well being is my main concern."
In any case here are the figures that are official from AMA Membership department. What are you and I going to do about it?
Official membership numbers close on Sep. 14 of each year.
2000........165365
2001........170754
2002........173420 Peak
2003........168075
2004........163709
2005........161006
2006........156765
2007........151394
2008........148487
2009........142231
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I would say, "use the Tom Sawyer approach", lead by example.
Keep in flying, entering contests and enjoying it. Hopefully, others will see you and join in the fun. Worst case, at least you remain in the head count.
I think AMA's Number One Mistake is downgrading it's support of competition. You NEED an AMA licence to compete, you can (at your own risk) sport fly without one.
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Hoss
Im with you. I support the AMA and what it does. Here is one important word the AMA
needs to understand.
"Broadcast"
PBS or Public Channel Television. Most people think AMA stands for America Motocross
Association or some other thing.
They need to let the world know who they are and what they do! Alot of people would
also support them. I did not know anything about any of this stuff until i seen this site
almost two years ago. Stunthanger is doing the best they can and it is a monumental
step for such a small bunch of guy's who love the sport. Great Job.
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In several discussions with Greg Hahn at AMA HQ, he is the technical director, last week informed me that 70% of all sanctions are class "C" sanctions. I wonder if any of you understand that a class "C" sanction has no rules or any way to enforce anything a contest flier might post. It is a simple free for all. No matter what is posted or promised in a contest flier there are no rules, none. With no rules you have sloppy contests and the decline is never going end. Class "C" sanctions were originally designed for fun flies and fun get togethers. That has changed to some degree. The decline is obvious but its cause is allusive. In my opinion it is a combination of many things and I am not going to waist any ones time trying to explain my feelings. Some know some don't. Lets just leave it at that. Class "C" events can however be great fun for some so I hope they continue, just not for me.
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Dick, your characterization of Class C events is hogwash. All Class C means is that there are no rule book events.
We occasionally have a Class C Control Line contest here in District VIII. As an example: sanction a CL contest which only is having Classic, and Old Time stunt. Class C since there are no rule book events.
Bill
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AMA seems to pay no attention to these economic times. I called and asked if I could join at a lesser rate by not getting the magazine. I was told no! This was at the same time I got a notice that the rate was going up. This took place at the time when there would be only one more contest within my reach. So my years membership would be good only once this year then I would have to pay again. If the AMA wants to remain a viable organization it should pay more attention to it's surroundings. So I fly mostly by myself and don't enter contests where it would cost $100 or more to enter the first one. SLEEPY
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Mortality.... when I look at the pictures in Model Aviation, I'm looking at some pretty old Farts like me... The Coumadin and Digoxin set. H^^
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Mortality.... when I look at the pictures in Model Aviation, I'm looking at some pretty old Farts like me... The Coumadin and Digoxin set. H^^
You may have a point there Dick. It would be interesting to see the graph for the number of new members from the last 10 or 20 years. You might have a relatively steady influx of new members but a rise in the number of members leaving AMA feet first.
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Hoss, I've seen your criticism for many years on several forums..question in my mind is: If we put you in the drivers seat, as you would like, what specifically could you actually accomplish to improve the situation?
Phil Coopy AMA609
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If the AMA Membership is 80% (a rough guess, probably low) Sport Fliers like the AMA claims, what reason do they have to join AMA? Remember that the insurance is merely secondary insurance. If your homeowners doesn't cover it, AMA's steps up to the plate.
If you own a home or have Renter's Insurance, what would drive you to join AMA? A club membership that requires AMA! Charter your CLUB! If you don't have a club, start one, and Charter it! The ONE thing that AMA's insurance really does seem to help is getting flying fields. Park Dept.'s suddenly listen when you tell about AMA's MILLION DOLLAR insurance policy. Yet they keep building skateboard parks and putting kids in wheelchairs...a mystery, huh?
But you're right...it won't be many years and there won't be anybody to buy your collections of kits and rare engines, so do what you think is best... R%%%% Steve
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I'm with Bryan Higgins. The AMA should get modeling events on TV, but only so long as it doesn't interfere with the American JumpRope Nationals or the national tumbler stacking competition. Those are are favorite sports programs which I have watched several times on different channe.s. Little sarcasm there!
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I belong to the AMA because I fly a little Stunt now and then where they require me to have that little card. I read the engine column (Wagner, I believe) and anything CL related. Which isn't much. I drop 'em off at the doctor's office when I remember. Otherwise, I have no interest in the magazine at all. I asked them about delivering it to a military site, figuring some of the folks serving might be interested. AMA was not interested.
Oh, well. Watts are something light bulb related, and 1/4 or 1/3 scale anything should probably be food related. I could fit into some pants that are pushed way to the right of my closet if that were the case. And ARF is something that happens when you have the flu or after eating at a place called Myrtle's.
That said, I wish them well. I just wish I could drop my $50 on something modelling related.
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Whine whine whine......
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Hoss, I've seen your criticism for many years on several forums..question in my mind is: If we put you in the drivers seat, as you would like, what specifically could you actually accomplish to improve the situation?
Phil Coopy AMA609
Thanks Phil for the question: Either you want a repeat of my last candidacy, or you simply forgot my statements.
Unfortunately, I am no longer available for national office. My last big show was when in the 1980 election I was reelected by WRITE-IN to the Dist VI DVP position. That did not last for my recent attempts to obtain the EVP position. 8)
At 73, almost 74, I will keep to enjoying BUILDING and flying model airplanes.
However if you missed my promises, here they are again. Perhaps you can find someone that would like to carry these items forward, especially to reorganize as the EAA is so organized. It is in this campaign statement.
(Some notes in parentheses added.)
EVP Campaign Statement, Horrace D. Cain, 2008 Character Count, 3077.
Hello AMA Members. Are you well satisfied with this aeromodeling sport-hobby in your chosen disciplines? Hopefully you are as satisfied as I have been for over 60 years.
With so long in this activity, I wish to see it survive in this fast paced and active world in which we live. Modelers need flying sites, where they should be able to feel secure, and to know that once they labor and procure those sites, they can expect to enjoy the fruit of that labor for a long time.
Elect Horrace D. Cain, AMA L-93, New Caney, TX, to the office of Executive Vice President, Academy of Model Aeronautics (AMA). Then you and I can direct AMA to ensure flying facilities exist and your welcome there will remain for many years.
Together we can ensure governments at all levels are aware of our excellent sport. Using available no-cost media we can bring the aeromodeling message to all from the White House down to city and township councils. All the major networks plus local news media will receive aeromodeling news on a regular basis. Informing the national offices and media about the international goodwill AMA promotes through the FAI programs has to be of their interest. When a Club or group speaks to officials about flying sites, noise problems, etc. the modelers will then be received by persons aware of modeling’s worth in recreation and education for both young and old.
As you may be aware, certain organizations have a regular C-Corporation for the organization, yet provide one or more Foundations to provide membership benefits under the Internal Revenue Code (IRC) Section 501 (c) (3). AMA could use such framework. Then AMA, unrestricted, could present to legislatures those items benefiting AMA members. (EAA ORGANIZATION)
There are those that, for political gain, would severely restrict our sport. Here is an opportunity to secure our investments and labors in our sport. Together, we can do that. (FAA, Certain liberal congressmen)
AMA has established a commercial publishing business known as an “Unrelated Business” under the IRC. As such it can suffer certain federal income tax liabilities. So far the AMA provides adequate financial losses to preclude any significant tax. (It means the magazine loses over a million dollars each year which is subsidized by YOUR dues.)
Do you stop earning money because you have to pay tax? While significant profitability may require taxes, AMA could significantly reduce the loss of your dues monies which now finance this commercial operation. You and I can do that. (Have the magazine operate in the free market and produce a profit rather than be secured in a member dues-subsidized unit with no responsibility)
Our sport and hobby has many different disciplines and factions. Isn’t it wonderful that so many can enjoy such different activities, yet be bonded by a common name, aeromodeling? However this means the AMA really needs to branch out and attract persons from all the various modeling themes be they sport or hobby. We need to recognize our fellow modeler, no matter his/her interest or station within the activity.
The technologies and the membership needs are, as the world itself, changing almost exponentially. As an association, we must lead these advances. Only a progressive Executive Council (EC) can lead our employee staff in this direction. (Insinuating AMA REACTS rather than lead.)
AMA programs need constant revision, modifications or even deletion, while new programs are developed to meet the needs of a changing aeromodeler’s society. Providing the necessary outreach to the newer generations involved in the new technologies, yet still providing for the established needs of the more conservative approaches, will allow AMA to attract and maintain the membership needed to accomplish AMA goals.
These objectives will provide all aeromodeling disciplines with a progressive AMA EC, one equipped to represent its membership and their interests to the world. As your EVP, I will pursue these objectives, and inform you as they progress. (NOTICE: Inform rather than hide)
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Whine whine whine......
Shirley, you weren't referring to me. I once whined about living next to Jamie Lee Curtis and never seeing her - well, comfortable. And then she had a sidewalk built between our houses, and now we regularly enjoy pineapple upside down cake together. Comfortably, even.
Life is good.
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As long as the Academy of Mostly ARFs continues to ignore Competition events in favor of Park Flyers and other such nonsense, membership will continue to decline.
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I have supported the AMA all of my modeling life, but I do have to question their business model. Given their membership demographic why would you provide discounts to your most populous and declining age group and fail to tap into the growing section of the modeling market. Most youths today that are interested in modeling run electric helicopters, cars and park flyers. They can do that anywhere, w/o insurance, and they do. I question how long the AMA can keep going this way. They need to expand their services and give that group a reason to join.
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Well, I am considering doing my part and re-upping in the near future after a 34 year hiatus. Strangely enough, I went on the AMA website and couldn't find the cost of membership. I would like to get my old number back, but that is probably a pipe dream.
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Bill,
A class "C" event does not require rules or enforcement of any posted rules. I got that from Greg Hahn. It is his responsibility to give the classifications to sanctions. He told me that is exactly what a class "C" sanction means. You can have a class "C" sanction event and follow established rules or make up your own and everything is ok. No contestants will complain but if someone wants to file a protest or have any other complaint and the AMA (Greg Hahn) told me you haven't a leg to stand on unless the C/D wants to help. He is not required to do anything because it is a NON RULE BOOK EVENT> There are no rules.
Call Greg at 1-800-435-9262 ext 230 ask him directly.
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Hi
Dick. You can get your old number back if 1. It is still available. 2. you have an AMA licence with yuor old number on it. Just send in the application with a note and a copy of the old lic. It worked for me after 22 years. H^^
I remember the number well and have 3 junk planes in the basement emblazoned on the wing with 62221. Old AMA license? Long gone.
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The world has changed a lot since 1949 when I got my first engine (WenMac) and airplane. People have a lot less leisure time and there are many more things to take up the free hours, like spending time on these forums. In fact, seeing the same folks post over and over again, some serious building and flying time must be spent here.
I firmly believe that if ARFs had not come along, the number in most aspects of the hobby (and AMA) would be a lot less. I think also that the decrease in AMA membership will continue despite efforts to bring the numbers up.
Paul
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Lately, at least in the area I live, there has been something of a resurgence in kids interesting in modeling (not ARFing, modeling). But there is generally no clear path toward help, places to fly or general support. I've been helping a couple of kids (children of friends of mine), but the truth is, if a kid is really interested, without a relative that's into it or some support, there really is no clear path for them to get into modeling. There are no hobby shops around here really (one about 30 miles away from where I live), no flying fields, no where that they can get help.
It's my opinion that the AMA should restart at least a little support for modelers. I realize that any real money is going to come from ARFs and the like. But the AMA is probably going to have to decide what their mission is. Is it catering to the ARF industry or representing modelers? I have no problem with them doing both, but it would be nice to think that they at least care a little for modelers and competition. The only thing that is likely to save the AMA in the end is to generate and support interest in competition.
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If I may add a couple of thoughts, I think the cost of modeling has a lot to do with the number of new people getting involved. My first Nobler kit cost $9.95 and the Fox 35 for power was $14.95. Dope was under $2 a jar. I probably built that plane for $30. Of course, there were no dining room tables back then, I had to build on a slab of rock. LL~
I left modeling in 1975 and am considering getting back in. I am amazed at the cost of major components today. $200 kits and $100 engines are common. The price of fuel is out of sight. My local "hobby shop" is nothing more than electric R/C cars, model trains and plastic car kits. Absolutely nothing for aeromodeling. Should I attempt to re-enter this sport, I will have to order everything on line and wait for UPS delivery. Either that or get in the truck and drive to MA, CT or NY in hopes of finding a place to browse and buy. Add to that the cost of AMA membership/insurance, whatever that may be. It will take substantial effort and cash to resume my modeling and stunt flying.
However, I will probably do it in the spring, regardless of the costs or nuisance involved. Most likely, I will go ARF because it would be a pain to scratch or kit build with no local source of supplies. I would love to get back into competition, but events are just too far away. On the other hand... :-\
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Shirley, you weren't referring to me. I once whined about living next to Jamie Lee Curtis and never seeing her - well, comfortable. And then she had a sidewalk built between our houses, and now we regularly enjoy pineapple upside down cake together. Comfortably, even.
Life is good.
Clayton...
As a long time fan of JLC's,,,Hummm?
However if she suggests doping that "pineapple upside down cake with her "ACTIVIA" recipeee'---------------------I might suggest you pass on that one? (It gives my beloved wife...STINKEEE-STINKEEE GAS! LL~
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Dick,
Well, were I live there is no real hobby shop close. There is one about 20 miles from were I work (an additional 28 miles from home) that I can get some basics like glue from. But I get pretty much everything else online. CLC, National Balsa and Lone star Balsa. Tower and other places and the service is generally pretty good. I've never had a single problem with any of them.
It's the way it is and I've learned to live with it.
Edit
I didn't get my original number back (67716) as it had been re-assigned, but instead, they gave me the closest one available (67711) when I re-signed up back in 83.
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Well, I am considering doing my part and re-upping in the near future after a 34 year hiatus. Strangely enough, I went on the AMA website and couldn't find the cost of membership. I would like to get my old number back, but that is probably a pipe dream.
If the number was never re-issued, you shouldn't have any problem at all. I got mine back with a phone call, no other proof needed, as I knew the number and it was never re-issued.
Good luck, and welcome back to the hobby/sport!
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No, modeling today is not much more expensive than it ever was. Looked at cost of living calculator; $14.95 in 1950 is equal to $136.60 today. A Fox stunt 35 costs less today than it did in 1950! S?P
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No, modeling today is not much more expensive than it ever was. Looked at cost of living calculator; $14.95 in 1950 is equal to $136.60 today. A Fox stunt 35 costs less today than it did in 1950! S?P
Not if you're still living on a 1950's allowance. LL~ LL~ LL~ LL~
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I never understood why so many folks are wanting their old AMA #'s back. Mine is #7781, the same one I got in '62. I did let it lapse for two or maybe three years. What I don't understand is how I got a 4 digit number then, as a 17 year old kid.
One of the best things about modeling is that there's a type for any budget. If your budget is very low, then you fly HLG or similar. If you're physically limited, then there's something else you can do. It's all good, all interesting, and all will help keep you from the Devil of Alzheimer's. Well, that and fish oil capsules. H^^ Steve
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If I speak my mind about this issue....am I going to need a flak jacket? S?P
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Tell us John...
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Seems like this ought to be over on Stuka Stunt or somewhere...
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An organization is as good as it's members. What are we "old farts" doing about getting "young farts" into the sport? Control line is barely holding its own. What can, or should we do, to advertise the sport and generate more interest? Talk to almost anyone and tell them about control line and they have no idea what you are talking about. They do, however, know about R/C.
R/C folks are equally guilty as C/L folks about actively advertising and seeking newer members. (With perhaps some exceptions.) We, as a model flyer's community, are doing a poor job of advertising the sport and soliciting new members.
As for C/L, because that is what I am currently enjoying after a recent reentry into the sport, we are much cheaper and easier to get into than RC. We cost less over the longer term than R/C. We are easier to fly "the basics" that R/C. Why don't we advertise that and try to generate "new" interest in our sport before "it goes into the history books". If we do this, the AMA will grow and we should then have a larger collective voice. If we don't, boo on us.
Mike M
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Interesting! Maybe C/L needs a new buzz name like,"Direct Flight", or something exciting.Lets face it-"Control Line" is not that exciting of a name.John Q.Public may think you have a speech impedement, or speaking in incomplete sentences when describing what we do! Turn it into a new find...Sprint did just that in the cellular industry by calling it's "new" service "PCS" back in the late 90s.It was a very successful strategy.And,you still ended up with a cellphone. Call something that's old,by a new name. Once they catch on to this "new" find, we can break the news that its really called C/L!
Hey, people are funny that way! Come on guys(and Gals)!! Can anyone come up with a better way to save this sinking ship?
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It's not just c/l that doesn't get the play.....all forms of modeling are going down the toilet...
Kids don't have hobbies anymore....they have past times....like "the Internet" or texting.....
I do think that the Academy could use a real Marketing guy....testimony to their failure is the fact that the city of Muncie (which reaps HUGE benefits from the Nationals) is oblivious that the AMA and the flying site even exist. Modeling is a hobby the kids fathers used to do....
I have been a "Leader Member" of the AMA for the past 20 years....and have only received ONE survey.....!!!!!
I do think there should be more emphasis on competition.....NASCAR has proven that "what wins on Sunday sells on Monday".....
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One thing about CL, almost all of my friends, except the ones who have seen me fly, think we are playing with something coming from Walmart. I do think we need to market what we do in other magazines besides Model Aviation, Flying Models, or Stunt News etc. Maybe if we sent an ad into a magazine like Air and Space (which I also subscribe to) could get us more out and into the public. When somebody subscribes to Air and Space or any other flying magazine, they obviously must have some sort of interest in aviation.
Our Aviation club at our school has 3 members, including me. I asked one of my friends why don't he join, and he said airplanes aren't cool. No, cell phones are cool, skateboards are cool according to them. I personally can't find anything cooler than flying a full sized airplane with you at the controls and in the left seat (yes my head is still in the clouds LL~ ). I have a cell phone, and I have for communication with my parents, you know telling them where the bus is if I'm coming home from a basketball game.
The nearest hobby shop for us, is in the city/town of Rutland Vermont. That is a good 2-3 hour drive from where we are (10 minutes from Canada). I think CL is growing, but the AMA is still, if I remember the survey right from a few years ago, 90% RC guys who fly for sport. When I did fly RC, I flew for sport and until I saw how fun CL is, I was all things RC, now I'm all things CL LL~ .
My rant for today R%%%%
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Random thoughts:
Perhaps if we refer to it as "Analog Controlled" or something we will get more interest, but I doubt it. Kids who want to include building things in their life will do so. Others will just twiddle their thumbs on a game. I would not be surprised if the trend turns around and young folks start creating things again...like model airplanes.
I believe this is where ARF's will keep a newby in modeling. How many have found a complete broken model in a trash can...the person's first...and last model. So much time building, crash, not willing to repeat the effort. This is where a club trainer to learn basics and an ARF to gain experience while building a ship, might help. You guys who have a club and a newby program might be able to answer whether it helps.
Over my modeling years I have had three AMA numbers, apparently because the numbers were re-issued during my lapse. I am fortunate enough to have been re-issued my original (~1957) number (23454) the last time (~16 years ago). I plan to not let it lapse again.
As far as cost, when I finished high school (1960) I got a job in a printing shop making $1.00/hr. At that time I think a Fox .35 was $11.95 or so. I think minimum wage at that time was $0.85/hr.
George
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In the past, AMA benefited from four really great sponserships:
The Plymouth Internats from 1948 to 1952.
The Navy base Nats up until circa 1972.
Air Force flights to FAI World Championships, ending (due to airline protests) in the early 1970's.
Cox exhibit at Disneyland.
These were "outside stimuli" that have yet to be equalled. Probably never will be, and not the fault of current management.
So membership is a little off peak. Certainly not the end of AMA.
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A quick interpolation of the data indicates that I'll be about 150 years old when it's dead...and the death of the AMA will have no impact because as you all point out...we have no kids getting involved so there is no legacy to consider...the problems all resolve simultaneously!. D>K
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I've been reading about how to attract folks since I learned to read. With Air Trails magazines from the late forties. Gotta go after the youth!
Yeah, well, screw the youth. It is truly wasted on the young.
Am not aware of what will ever work. Ya got it, or you don't. Nothing wrong with people that don't, but I'm not ever going to be actively involved in trying to recruit them again. I've got a better chance at playing adult games with Jamie Lee Curtis.
My brother Dan flies FF. A breed that is dying off even faster. I read where the dinasaurs were happy up until the very end. But, I have seen the writing on the wall. Well, first I wrote it, and then I read it.
As to it being expensive - I think not. Yes, it can be. But it doesn't have to be. I hear it is cheap compared to golf.
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Tell us John...
I would swear I did just that this morning. If I didnt know better, I would think somebody deleted it. Ok, maybe I do only possess half of my marbles? ~^
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Well, Hoss,
According to the official numbers you cite, there are 14,000+ of us if we are 10% of the total (including FF, Indoor, CL, etc.) Possibly up to 28,000 if we are 20%.
And most of us have stayed active AMA members over the years. Of course, we notice and warmly welcome back our returning buddies (who said retreads?) The other 80% to 90%, in my experience with a few RC Clubs, is transient - 2 or 3 years and they're off to surfing, or tennis, or yoga, or whatever. For a few years, there, then on again. Of course, beginners have to spend money to get properly set up and equipped. Veterans, or old timers, have almost all of what they need already, and plugs props and fuel don't keep high-tech, high-pressure-sales companies on the black side of the ledger - there are too many of those to survive only on those of us who know better...
High volume, high dollar sales buys muchos advertising space. ...Sponsors events that promote their products. ...Offers alternatives to some who like leading, but have lost the fire in the belly to keep competing, or running competitions.
AMA insurance is not a joke. Really! It is primary for site owners and club members when AMA related activities are in progress. ...and for contests... And even where it is secondary, that part would be out of pocket except for AMA's role. And, for the price, offering a sizable liability protection to a city or county parks or rec dept is a decent move.
Yeah, there's a lot wrong in AMA - the diversity of model flying almost assures there will be, and as we get older, we get crankier about wanting what we want! We've been around long enough to live with that. The new guys - the few(?) arrogant RC newbies we've all met from time to time who believe they own the whole sky, and have the mail-order invoice from Tower to prove it... They can annoy me. Then I realize, they aren't worth my heartburn.
A favorite tag line is "To fly CL, you have to be a good enough person to have a friend who'll trust you to launch his model, and who you'll trust to launch yours. ...Unless your arms are 60' long, and if they are you don't even need the lines."
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"According to the official numbers you cite, there are 14,000+ of us if we are 10% of the total (including FF, Indoor, CL, etc.) Possibly up to 28,000 if we are 20%.
And most of us have stayed active AMA members over the years. Of course, we notice and warmly welcome back our returning buddies (who said retreads?) The other 80% to 90%, in my experience with a few RC Clubs, is transient - 2 or 3 years and they're off to surfing, or tennis, or yoga, or whatever. For a few years, there, then on again. "
I must take some exception to the above from Lou.
The last survey that I remember was posted by Bob Hunt when he was still with MA. At that time, we (all but RC) were very close to 5% of the AMA membership so CL is something below that. The other 95% (RC) does have a transient component in club (and AMA) membership - one RC club I belong to has about a 10% turnover - 10% leave and are replaced by a new 10%. However, at least 80% of the membership is stable and long-term AMA and club members. Of course there are many more RC and CL fliers who can fly in parks and other public/private areas (park fliers) without the need for AMA.
I am a returning retread but I don't fly CL exclusively. There are about 5 RC clubs in my immediate area (I belong to two) - I have to travel a fair distance to fly CL with a club so I do all my CL activity at one of the RC fields with a couple of other CL fliers or alone. Neither RC nor CL is allowed in the public parks or school grounds in my area.
Paul
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Not his again....
If there were no competition, I would not belong to the AMA.
Question? Why has the EAA flourished and the AMA continued to shrink? Easy marketing.
http://www.sportfliers.com/
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I agree on the marketing angle. But then when is the last time anyone played or has even seen a horseshoes game? Some things just die a natural death as times and people change. D>K
I fly contests at the Middlesex, NJ modelers site. Last year one contest coincided with the National Horseshoe championships. They had about 300 people. The park maintains the horseshoe pits, about 14 of them. They get used every weekend! the Park also put in a nice paved, fenced circle the Middlesex Modelers use every weekend. the club has been at the same site since 1950 or so.
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There seems to be a persistent complaint that the AMA doesn't encourage competition! It seems that they really DO, but only in the areas of R/C. Hardly a contest in R/C escapes their attention.
I'm not an economist, but if I think about the sources of income to the AMA, it would seem to be a real money-making enterprise! Their magazine is wall-to-wall advertising, plus a good chunk of our annual dues must go into their publication. I'm not really demanding an accounting, but something is fishy here! (Maybe the Muncie operation is more costly than I realize.)
Floyd
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Floyd, you can go on the AMA site and get all of that financial information. Including magazine costs....advertising revenue, etc.
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Random thoughts...Is there any employees on the AMA staff that has any genuine interest in model aviation, or is it just a 8-5 job for them?(besides Greg Hahn) I wonder what would happen if the head of advertising/marketing were CL enthusiasts who were really into promoting the hobby/ sport? And all on staff were enthusiastic modelers?
Our allocated space for CL coverage (CLPA/speed/combat/racing) in MA speaks volumes of our position in the food chain.
It appears there is no easy solution, so I guess we continue to go with the flow...
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If your CL club is interested in attracting young people, keep two things in mind: the kids will need transportation and parental support, and, many parents will want to be with their kids at the flying field.
I would suggest finding your local Home School Association. HS parents are willing and able to put a lot of resources into raising their kids. The kids do not have the school-based organization of their lives which allows no time for models, and the parents will be glad to have them socialized with a bunch of nice older folks like us. H^^
Look at the kids on detention and in-school suspension in the local school system. The administration may be glad to have them baby sat by us. Also these are kids not marching to the drummer, and maybe might respond to someone trying to pass on an enthusiasm, and being concerned that they have fun.
Girl Scouts are looking for good wholesome activities which are not "female" as such. Also, girls of that age are much more focused and tractable than many young males.
So get the parents involved and maybe we get some adult converts as well.
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Have you ever heard the term, "creative bookkeeping"?
Floyd
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I renewed today along with my two boys.
+3
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Have you ever heard the term, "creative bookkeeping"?
Floyd
This reminded of a quote froma guy teaching accounting/bookkeeping.
"A good accountant is like a sting bikini -- what it shows is important, but what it hides is essential."
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Mailed in my renewal today.
Bill Hodges
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Well today in the mail, I got my AMA renewal, and the cost of a youth membership is $1.00, without the magazine and $15 with the magazine (I'm not cheap I get the magazine). It's nice to be young y1
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each year I send in my Insurance? payment and wonder why the AMA still exists. They could at least change there name to reflect what they do. Any suggestions?
MAPR (model airplane protection racket) I'm sure you gentleman can top that one.
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Chuck,
I see you proudly show your low digit AMA number in your signature here on Stunt Hangar. Why bother if you feel the way you do?
AMA isn't perfect, but it's really our best representation. I don't like my "association" at work either, but they are the only one's representing me rather than allowing the corporation to shove anything it want's down my throat. Same way I feel about the AMA sometimes too.
I've been a member since 1966 as a little Junior and the feeling is way different, but I'll remain a member. I sent my renewal in along with my Junior son's, as usual.
Chris...
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Cris,
Every year at this time I get upset with the AMA because they do so little for us. So many people have asked to not get the magizine but the answer is always the same. No. So please excuse my rant. I'll try to not do it again. (The low number). I once had a low number 650. That was because the AMA wanted C/D's to have low numbers. I don't recall my original number but it was close to 16500. Well anyway when I returned to the sport in 2001 I asked for my old number and they gave it to me. Then I realized that I didn't want such a low number because contestants and perhaps judges might expect me to do a lot better than I can. So I called AMA with a list of numbers that I recovered from old photos that I had saved. That is how I got the number I have now. Yes I am proud to have that number. It only reflects that I have been involved with the sport for a long time. early 1950 as I recall. I hope to see you some time soon.
Chuck
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Number, schmumber. When I was a CD, 1971-1978, my AMA number was 325. Wish I'd kept it. T'was a lot easier to mask-off or cut out only three numbers.
Dropped out while working in Saudi Arabia, then spending 5 years worth of nights & weekends on a college degree. Re-joined in the mid-'80s...receiving one of those 6-digit "newbie" numbers, as if I hadn't been modeling since 1947.
While visiting with the late Bev Wisniewski one evening, asked her to see if I could be re-issued my original (1951?) number, 14220. Done deal....have had it ever since.
Question is: why do I keep renewing with the Academy of Mostly ARFs? Answer: because I like to fly in contests, and because membership in the Academy of Modulators & Amplifiers is required in order to be a member of the greatest CL club on Earth, the Cholla Choppers of Tucson.
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I am bringing my RTF Bf-109G park flyer just so you freak out a little bit.
Chris...
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I believe that the AMA, for all of its faults, does a pretty good job. Without them, I would wager that those playing with toy aeroplanes would be SIGNIFICANTLY less than today.
They support the needs and wants of the majority of members. They ARE pretty poor in the marketing department, but try....
I find that my District VP and the AVP''s are receptive to suggestions that would be beneficial to "the greater good".....they are generally as dismayed as all of us here at the proliferation of time/money/magazine space devoted to Park Fliers, but they also explain that these present the greatest peril to our flying sites and ability to pursue our passions....
The AMA also recognizes that there is a real danger of the Fed "shutting down" airmodeling activity because of threats (real and perceived) to National Security, and that control line may become the ONLY airmodeling activity available in certain areas of the country....and control line is always mentioned when bans on flying are discussed...
Support the AMA and make reasonable suggestions....they DO care!
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signed my son up today!
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I have been an AMA member since my first contest at Stanley Kansas Air Field. Was DQ'd when wheel fell off the Guillows Rat Racer. Have never let it lapse even the years I couldn't go to contests. As any organization, it is only as good as its members. Getting ready to send renewals for 4 grand kids and myself. DOC Holliday
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Among the obivious that already has been stated. How many of you have ever
seen a District VP at a C/L local contest, in District V we have a relatively new VP
and for the time he has been in office not once have I heard of him being at any
C/L contest that goes for the AVP's also we have about 6 of them here in FLorida.
And I do not recall a C/L contest mentioned in the District news since the last VP
was in office. I apologize for not remembering his name, but he did show up a a
contest or two and shook every hand that did not have a handle in it at the time.
The only person I know shows up at nearly every contest regardless of venue is
Gene Martine the C/L contest coordinator for the Florida part of the district.
In essence if we cannot get the people that run the district political end of our
hobby to recognize that we are a viable part of the AMA then what hope do we
have of attracting AMA headquarters to support us on a national basis.
R%%%%
Scott
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One thing that might help is for the AMA to be true to its mission as an educational association. When do you actually see anything educational that the AMA does? I suppose you could stretch the word "educational" to the point that the typical, incessant ARF reviews of its magazine might be jammed into it, but I doubt it. I wonder what would happen if the AMA, instead of chasing the market, actually changed its basic approach and honored what it is incorporated as? What would happen if it became proactive and set an agenda of education instead of chasing the latest market craze in model flying. Since that craze currently leads to the local Toys-R-Us store, you have to wonder about the capabilities and thinking process of AMA leadership.
Does the IRS ever check to see if an institution incorporated as an educational entity actually is? Apparently not.
Scott
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When do you actually see anything educational that the AMA does? Scott
The Delta Dart.There ya'go! LL~
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As a returning "retread" to C/L flying, I have a couple of observations:
First: Having not seen a C/L plane in the air for about 35 years, I was/am surprised how many are still active in the hobby. Even more surprised how many contests are still held, and how well attended. I'm not surprised that parks and schools still shun C/L.
Second: I purchased some stuff from Tower Hobbies and got a free 3 month subscription to Model Airplane News, my past magazine of choice. After reading 3 issues I did not once see "C/L" anywhere. I'm not sure MAN knows the hobby still exists. You can imagine what happened to the "special renewal offer" when it came. The amount of coverage that the AMA "official" magazine gives to C/L is disappointing at best.
It's pretty obvious that R/C currently rules, but that's no reason to turn your back on C/L. As a member of the Fresno area PC Flyers, I have started to churn out a small newsletter. Our local hobby shop is happy to allow me leave a stack on the counter; and guess what, it works. We have a new father/son combo who have purchased a PT-19 ARF and will fly for the first time tomorrow.
I would think that the AMA could afford to spend a little more time/effort/money to promote our hobby. I haven't joined PAMPA as yet, but will be soon; for some reason I just keep dragging my feet.
Brian
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Brian,
Model Airplane News is now a strictly R/C magazine and has been for at least 10 years. The only model magazine on the news stands that still has FF and CL articles and plans and is not a commercial catalog is Flying Models, the only magazine I still buy. I do hope they can stay in business otherwise special interest group publications and club news letters will be the only source of non R/C information.
Orv.
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Try a subscription to Control Line World.
Strictly Control Line.
Address:
Control Line World Magazine,
100 Park Avenue,
Carmichaels, PA 15320
Clancy
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One point everyone is missing is there would be no contest if there was no clubs and there would be no clubs if we didn't have AMA's incredibly inexpensive yearly club field insurance. You have to have some membership and a legal name to get the insurance. Ever go and talk to someone about using there lot to hold a contest and not have insurance you can offer the owner.We hold two sanctioned contest and many other events at the Huntersville field each year. We could not even walk on the field if we didn't have the insurance. It's $65 a year. Someone said lets get private insurance. How about $3500 a year. I just spent several months working with the county to get us set up for several years into the future and they agree that AMA is the best way to go and the only insurance they will except. You won't get on the field with your homeowners insurance. Do you think your homeowners insurance will send the county a letter saying they are going to cover you at the field. With out that letter we can't use the field. After the first of the year our field is going to be locked all the time. Club members can get a key.We formed a Charter within the AMA between the RC club and our CL club for joint use of the field and our insurance is going to be cheaper next year. I agree if you don't want to belong to a club and like to fly by yourself on a school ballpark you can skip AMA. If AMA did nothing but supply insurance it would still be of great value.
Ed
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As far as Mike M's point, we do need to market our sport. "Control line" or "U-control" are old names; why not call it what it is and at the same time bring it into the modern age; after all, we are the orginal "Fly-by-Wire" :)!. That's what we call our PC Flyer's newsletter, and people seem to like it.
Brian
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Gentlemen, fellow Model Airplane Enthusiasts:
There is far more to our sport than most aeromodelers ever realize.
In any case here are the figures that are official from AMA Membership department. What are you and I going to do about it?
Official membership numbers close on Sep. 14 of each year.
2000........165365
2001........170754
2002........173420 Peak
2003........168075
2004........163709
2005........161006
2006........156765
2007........151394
2008........148487
2009........142231
It might help if some "aero-modelers" could can the attitudes towards new members. I left this forum once because of certain attitudes toward "my" voicing of opinion in an open forum. In my opinion anyone who doesn't like a thread posted by a new member, or even a comment made in an open forum, they can ignore it.......but copping an attitude towards new members, or even those not so new....is counter-productive to keeping this a family oriented sport. Having said that, I will now retire myself to the "back channel" of these boards.
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Does Control Line World have a web address?
Brian
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Brian, try:
www.controllineworld.com
Jim
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Too bad that site is so far out of date. And, if you click subscribe there, my computer gives me a message to close the window for security reasons.
Paul
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This Connection is Untrusted
You have asked Firefox to connect
securely to www.brodak.com, but we can't confirm that your connection is secure.
Normally, when you try to connect securely,
sites will present trusted identification to prove that you are
going to the right place. However, this site's identity can't be verified.
What Should I Do?
If you usually connect to
this site without problems, this error could mean that someone is
trying to impersonate the site, and you shouldn't continue.
Technical Details
www.brodak.com uses an invalid security certificate.
The certificate expired on 9/28/2009 5:50 PM.
(Error code: sec_error_expired_certificate)
I Understand the Risks
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That's just Microsoft's BS security crap, they have to keep changing things making it hard for anyone to stay on top of it.
Call Brodak and they will fix you up.
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Hi
Dick. You can get your old number back if 1. It is still available. 2. you have an AMA licence with yuor old number on it. Just send in the application with a note and a copy of the old lic. It worked for me after 22 years. H^^
There was a period where AMA used to recycle old membership numbers. I joined AMA during the 1960s when I was a youth but let it lapse during my college years. A few years later at one of the trade shows, I asked Vince Mankowski about rejoining. He said I should be able to get my original number back as AMA had gone back to their original practice of assigning only unique numbers to new members.
That said, AMA is not unlike any other organization having to compete for discretionary leisure dollars these days. A brutal economy and recent fiscal/monetary policies of enabling primarily the wealthy have devastated what was once a thriving middle class. I can attest as recently as 2002, my professional career and personal wealth were both in far better shape than today.
Sadly, I've had to drop several organizations and SIGs I formerly finacially supported. I'm having to work longer hours, my spouse has been forced to reenter the workforce and I'm finding precious little time for modeling or many of the other recreational activities I used to enjoy.
Demographics have also changed. The rapid emergence of small, affordable and largely pre-built park flyers have seen full AMA participation take a hit. They don't need a sanctioned field requiring AMA membership to fly their "toys". I now have as many unassembled ARFs still in boxes on the shelves because I can't break away from the higher priorities in life.
Just look at today's kids. There is so much more pressure on them to achieve success at an early age they have to commit to grueling sports programs, tackle more difficult courses in school and are straddled with MUCH more homework than I have had to complete 45 years ago.
I'm not sure AMA can reverse what is, in reality, a national social/economic trend.
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For those of you also having issues along with me regarding www.controllineworld.com, I asked the main guy, John Brodak. That website is no longer used, you can subscribe by going to the Brodak home page. He said in his email that you could look at the magazine there, but may have misspoke; I see no links to the magazine except for the subscribe link.
Brian