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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Will Hinton on August 18, 2010, 10:37:51 AM
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Hey All,
I have read here about people using a piece of tuned pipe connector on their finger for protection during starting and wanted to share this morning's event. when I burp my PA's I've been using a chicken stick but decided to do the old pipe connector trick. (I don't like what a chicken stick can do to a good CF prop trailing edge with just a little slip.)
DON'T DO THAT! My 75 smacked me and the prop cut right through the connector and cut my finger as well. It's not a bad cut, but it's a cut, just the same! That connector was just a piece of cheese to the CF prop and that big old 75. No contest, nada, nicht, nuttin', zero! As a result, I'll go back to the 'stick. No leather glove, no connector, the stick! I just wish my starter would turn a cold, barely broken in PA75, but it won't.
It was still a fabulous morning's practice, though - three good flights, no sun, 78 degrees, 3 knots wind, it doesn't get any better than that!
Blessings,
Will
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Will, use a piece of radiator "heater" hose or a piece of thick silicone connector, The prop will not go thru either unless it has been really sharpened. Or you are sliding across the prop while flipping.
A piece of radiator" heater" hose is easy to get and it is very tough, and there is a size that will fit almost everyone, the hose is very tough and I have seen them take a running whack without getting sliced
Randy
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Ask Brian Baker about his finger in the prop, at the Ted Goyet contest, last weekend story. H^^ >:D ~^ mw~
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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If you use a starter for large engines then forget all of the Hobbico and other house brand imported starters.Simply put they lack real muscle. For large or high compression engines there is no better starter then a Sullivan Dynatron. Also avail yourself of some decent R/C packs that go on the starter directly. No not the battery boxes like sullivan and Hobbico offer.
This is not a cheap set up but your fingers aren't replaceable and their is a skill to starting large engines. With this setup we start YS 91's on helis and up to ST3000 sized engines. The starter can accomodate up to 24V.
Dennis
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Larry is right its unbelievable the amount of damage a thunder tiger prop will do 3 pins reconstructed ligaments and a lot of pain you know its bad when you ask the er doctor if this is one of those things that look worse than it is and he shakes his head and says no its worse than it looks all because of a momentary brain fade and not thinking I cant thank Brian Moore enough for getting me to the hospital and helping my son get calm down and get everthing arranged and loaded up Its people like him that remind me why i love flying airplanes and the good news is its my left hand so i will be flying this weekend just so Larry can tell me how stupid i am and laugh at me which is probably well deserved just so long as he leaves the exacto knife at home ive been cut enough
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Thanks for the tip on the starter - I'll go for it.
Randy, the thick silicone connector is what I was using! This 75 is an animal - I love it. Honkin' thing must be a v-8, 327 Chevy! Doesn't balance that way, but sure pulls like it. I'll get some radiator hose before next weekend. y1
Will
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I have found that no matter the size of an engine. If cold it needs to be loosened up. A few drop of fuel will do it, maybe more. Most are still from the oil left over from the burned fuel. Some of my worst cuts were from the small engines, like a Black Widow if you don't get a good hold while winding the spring. The last cut was my B-40 when I did not follow starting procedure. I will never use a carbon prop as that is beyond my skills. Even if I did it would only get a heavy dury starter. But, even then I have seen cuts from people not using it properly. H^^
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I'll get some radiator hose before next weekend.
You probably want to ask for heater hose when you go to the auto parts store. They'll want to know how big, explain that you want it to fit your finger.
I wonder if you could armor the back of a glove for stuff like this -- maybe get a sheet of neoprene, or better yet glass or Kevlar reinforced neoprene, stitched to the fingers of a glove.
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Back when I would start engines with small props and an appitite for human flesh I used a glove with dense rubber attached to the top of the glove. I'm talking about car tire rubber hardness. I've also heard of combat flyers using a sheath of hardwood that was worn over their index and middle finger. That allowed them to give the prop a hard flip and get a one flip start.
Knock on wood I have never suffered a serious run in with a prop and hope that I never have to make a props acquaintance that way.
Dennis
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When we burp a strong engine to clear the oil Doc spoke of, it does just that, but that initial flip is a toughy when the engine is an interference fit like the PA's. These guys are tight! The power produced is worth the trouble of always needing to burp before the first run, but careful is the key. As far as the CF props, I feel nothing else will allow these engines to produce up to their capabilities. The problem that develops, however, is that a chicken stick can be dragged across the trailing edge of the prop and chip off material. (Ask me how I know that.)
That's why I left the "stick" a long time back. I actually ruined a valuable prop that way, I just got careless. My 75 is still too tight to start with the spinner flip technique, and my cheap starter doesn't have it for this rascal. The feel one achieves with a finger flip is much better than the stick, so here's my plan until I get the monster starter you fellows have pointed me to - I will dig one of my heavy leather work gloves out of the old tool box, get a hunk of radiator hose to fit the finger, and there we are, happy fingers, happy engine, great flying.
Thanks everyone for your tips, and thanks Randy, for the powerful need for such a solution! Line tension is wonderful.
Blessings,
Will
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Will; as we have talked, my 75 is in it's 5th year and a gazillion flights (now guys don't make an issue out of that number) and it will spinner flip start. But sometimes when I turn it over slowly, it will squeak. What a engine!
Blessings
Allen
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Kevlar gloves are available, I bought my brother inlaw a pair that he used when operating his chain saw, the chain saw could not cut through the kevlar but it could break your hand, fingers, etc. Tom Farmer
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You can use heater hose. Just get one about 8-10" long and use it like you would a chicken stick. Dont slide it over your finger just use it as the stick. Bob G did this for years and it works great.
First you are no longer putting your fingers in the prop.
Second it is soft enough so that a kick back wont break the prop. It will slice the heater hose because it is soft and hollow.
The heater hose is strong enough to flip it through. One draw back is there are kinds that will turn your hand black. The fuel makes them lose their color right onto your hand.
I use a spinner flip about 95% of the time. The rest of the time is a chicken stick but I am lightly flipping backwards and it goes right off with a light push of the prop on the leading edge. I dont like pulling them through on those thin trailing edges.
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DON'T DO THAT! My 75 smacked me and the prop cut right through the connector and cut my finger as well. It's not a bad cut, but it's a cut, just the same! That connector was just a piece of cheese to the CF prop and that big old 75. No contest, nada, nicht, nuttin', zero! As a result, I'll go back to the 'stick. No leather glove, no connector, the stick! I just wish my starter would turn a cold, barely broken in PA75, but it won't.
Guys, PLEASE, don't ever try flipping these engines through compression with the battery connected. I have successfully burped my PA61 with back-bumps when it was super-gummy and 45 degrees. They start very easily- forward-flipping is almost never necessary and is (as will found out the hard way) dangerous.
Brett
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I use the plastic air line from buses/trucks. The size that feeds the air brake chamber. It's hard enough to crank an engine without bending, soft enough to not damage props. And it's fuel proof. It comes in red and green.
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Guys, PLEASE, don't ever try flipping these engines through compression with the battery connected. I have successfully burped my PA61 with back-bumps when it was super-gummy and 45 degrees. They start very easily- forward-flipping is almost never necessary and is (as will found out the hard way) dangerous.
Brett
Hi Brett,
Did you notice that the next post after yours was how you can use a different hose to flip them through compression?!
You can lead a horse to water...
Chris...
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And all the hoses in the world aren't going to help when you stick your finger, or hand or... in the prop after the engine is running. By my observation there as many injuries are caused this way as there are prop-flipping accidents. ~^
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What really gets me is that I have been flipping PA'S almost since the 61 came out and have gotten away with it 'til now. The rascals were just hiding in the grass waiting for their chance! (Actually, I'm surprised my VF's didn't get me.)
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That is excactly what happened to me Pete
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Hi Brian, I heard about your accident through the grapevine. Also heard that it was a .40FP that did all that damage. Glad that the finger was "salvagable"...ouch, hurts just thinking about it. ~^
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Guys be very careful when flipping any motor after you have just burped it, a hot motor in this state cranks easy sometimes without the battery. I only need to burp any of mine after they have set on the nose and have loaded up with oil, after that they are not any problem to start
Randy
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Good point Randy.
A couple of years ago I was getting ready to start my Checkmate with a GMA Jett motor in it. After choking it and flipping it a few times, the thing started right up and scared the hell out of me. NO BATTERY CONNECTED. Thank god my pit man Scott Urabe had a good hold of her or my hand might look like Brians..
We always need to keep safe and plan for the worst. Some may call them toys, but all it takes is one misthought and our toys can be quite dangerous
Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team
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After being at the Northwest Regionals this year and seeing 3 guys get cut up with CF props I've decided that with age creeping up on me, I didn't need to get chopped up. I bought a Sullivan Hi-Tork starter and all new models will have remote glow plug hookups. I'm just not sure why we have to be so macho and hand start these brutes. I've operated all kinds of wookworking equipment over the years and always spent more time figuring out how to jig or hold a piece than I ever did doing the actual operation. About a month before I retired, our shop foreman got the end of his thumb removed with a router. Luckily I still have all my didgets and want to keep them.
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Me chicken.
Me use wood prop.
David
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Guys, PLEASE, don't ever try flipping these engines through compression with the battery connected. I have successfully burped my PA61 with back-bumps when it was super-gummy and 45 degrees. They start very easily- forward-flipping is almost never necessary and is (as will found out the hard way) dangerous.
Brett
I agree with this 100% I rarely, if ever, forward flip start these motors.
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I wet engine with intake prime and flip till it wets. Hook battery and pull through holding prop.
If it bumps it should start one-2 flips with da finger but not the crooked index one. Wood prop, Lefty flier.
Will probably go electric start with the .60s, Had not thought that far ahead on it ....yet.
David
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I've used a starter for as long as I can remember except for the initial burp. MY starter will turn my 65 for that, but not my 75 when it's cold. I do as Randy says after the first (and only) burp, but one little brain fade on that burp...
I fly alone so much of the time that I have to constantly be aware of what I'm doing, no matter what, but even then I can miss a step.
I don't remember who said the thing about toys, but he is SO right!
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Flew my first contest in a few years at Lexington a few weeks back. 61 bit me a few times. Seems my starting routine is a little rusty and over primed. No blood drawn but dang that smarts! Been saying that since I was 7 years old flipping over juiced baby bees. You would think I would know better. Found my chicken stick and made use of it after the second whack.
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I had to visit the auto parts store for one of the cars and got a foot of heater hose while I was there. (I'll lose the first piece I use.) Cut that baby in half and I'm ready for action.
John, do you remember a contest at Columbus when I spent the time in the restaurant with my finger in a glass of ice water? I just remembered that my 46 VF got me on a spinner flip. I had my finger too far towards the prop.
You guys weren't all that merciful to me during supper!
It's wonderful to see you back in the hunt!!!! I hope you make it to FCM!
Will
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POne of the worst cuts I ever had was with a wood 9-5 on an LA 25. H^^
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Hi Will,
As a CL "Retread" I was shocked to see that people were still starting their engines with their bare fingers. I do understand that some very experienced modelers can get their engines started easily under most circumstances. But this is not the case for many modelers, especially those who do not sleep with their engines under their pillow! ;-)
I still have the small scars on my fingers from childhood 1/2As. We had no idea what we were doing and no one to tell us to protect ourselves or even sand the nylon props to take off the knife edge, what did we know we were 7 yrs. old! But now we are grown up and know better. Sometime about 40 years ago I saw my first Electric starter, I never touched another prop on a glow engine again. I am aware of the extremely strong feelings about tradition in CL, but risking our valuable "FLYING" fingers/hand by placing them inside an efficient slicing machine is a risk not worth taking. The ONLY reason we used our hands when we were kids is that a safe alternative was not readily available. The chicken stick used with wooden props had obvious problems, as similar units still do today with wooden and CF props. I feel that there is never a good reason to use our fingers to start a glow engine. There are alternatives:
1. INEXPENSIVE "SAFE" WAY:
A fellow IMAC flyer and good friend from AZ came up with an excellent, safe, and inexpensive alternative to using our fingers to start our 6 cu. in. 10 HP engines with 28 x 10 CF props. I never liked using my hand, even with a very heavy glove. The computer ignition systems, and very low idle made it much easier than glow engines, but still it was more risk than I liked. With a CF three blade it was down right scary. I have three flying buddies that have severe hand, arm damage from these things.
His idea is simple: find a soft (safe for the prop), light, inexpensive, readily available, easily held, KIS, chicken stick!
If you want to make one for starting your CL engines, just go to Lowe's, Home Depeot, etc. and buy an inexpensive lightweight PLASTIC paint roller. Don't buy the ones with the heavy centers, get the lightest ones that are somewhat smaller dia. Find an old scrap of denim large enough to sew up a cover for the roller. If you have someone that sews this is easy, inside out sew up side and top, .... elastic, velcro, or drawstring bottom then turn rightside out so no hemlines showing and your ready. If you want the deluxe version, find some very soft, thin leather and make this cover with it. My wife made me one with very soft leather and it has lasted many years and still works fine! ..... Now you have the perfect chicken stick that will protect your fingers/hand AND your valuable wood, or CF, or APC props. Being light and soft it will not hurt any bystanders/holders when/if it flies out of your hand with a strong kick back on your belch-fire .80.
2. ELECTRIC STARTERS:
There are many good starters out there. As mentioned here, if you have an engine in the larger CL size of >.50 and it's cold you need a powerful starter. I have collected several over the years. The Sullivan 24V is very good, but actually larger than we need and it is bulky and heavy with 24V batteries. The regular "non geared" 12V starters are marginal on a cold day with a tight engine. Below is what I think is the best starter available for CL engines. I stopped using all my other starters after buying this one. It is small, light weight, and compact with it's own batteries as part of the unit. It uses rechargeable 14.2V NiCad batteries (two 7.2V in series) and has an internal 3 to 1 gear ratio. Before I converted all my RC and CL planes to electric power I used to use this starter on my OS 1.60 cu.in. glow engine. It is the gear ratio that makes it perfect for our size CL engines. It's small size and light weight makes it a pleasure to use.
If you are not ever going to use engines over .51, then the 1,800 mAh batteries are fine. If you are going to use larger CL engines then the 4,000 mAh batteries are better, and you will be able to be a hero at the local flying field by starting everyone else's cranky cold engines! ;-)
Link: http://www.ecsvr.com/wrc/shopdisplayproducts.asp?id=7&subcat=64&cat=Starters
The $109 one is fine the $149 one is even better. The charger is all automatic and goes to trickle when done. This starter will last for years and years of CL use. ..... Please see photo at bottom of this post.
3. ULTIMATE SAFE SOLUTION: FLY WITH ELECTRIC POWERED CL PLANES :)
This solution is self explanatory. Nothing more needs to be said. :!
Please be safe out there, perfectly working fingers on your flying hand are very hard to replace!
Regards, H^^