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Author Topic: OT but generally cool  (Read 1949 times)

Offline Brett Buck

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OT but generally cool
« on: September 12, 2021, 07:47:55 PM »
The world's largest steam locomotive restored to operation:




   Brett

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2021, 08:17:04 PM »
Could be brought on topic with a robust discussion of the correct bonus for using steam power in OTS.

I'm thinking 20 points.

Cool locomotive.
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #2 on: September 12, 2021, 08:32:38 PM »
   It' on a your/excursion right now and just came through the St. Louis area a week or so ago. It left Louisiana and made it's way north along the Mississippi river and crossed over into Missouri here at St. Louis and made a one day stop and was on display down town. I didn't go to that, because we have a Big Boy at the Transportation Museum here not far from Buder Park. I wanted to see it under steam, so kept examining the map on the UP web site and decided that out near Six Flags in Eureka, MO might be a good place to see it under power. If you are familiar with Buder Park, you know it is along side of the Meremac River, and the UP tracks come out of Kirkwood and un very close to Buder on the north side of the river. Turns out that was a good vantage point as the tracks are up on a levee, and it is a slight uphill run out of the Kirkwood station, so it was on the throttle going past there. A club member got some good video as it went past there. It ran west and crossed the Meremac twice and ran along I-44 going west past Six Flags amusement park where I found a spot on a one lane bridge over the tracks. I was a bit disappointed when it went by, as it must be a dead level section of track or even a downhill grade as he was completely off the throttle and coasting!  It was dead silent as it went by! It could have been electric if I didn't know better! We didn't even get to hear the whistle! But it was cool to see. I have seen other steam locomotives at rest, but only ever saw one under steam and moving and that was by accident. A place that I worked at years ago backed up to the Norfolk& Western tracks near where I was born and raised. we had all the doors open since it was a nice day. Suddenly I heard this god-awful screeching sound, like something was being ripped apart! I heard it again and thought it was coming from outside. I ran out the door just in time to the the Norfolk & Western Streamliner The Flying J that they run on similar excursions going by on the throttle. The screeching noise I heard was the whistle as they were coming to a street crossing. It was there and gone before I realized what it was!! If you have never seen one steamed up or moving under power, you have to try and see one before you turn toes up! those things were one of the tools that thins country was built with!!
  Type at you later,
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #3 on: September 12, 2021, 08:35:57 PM »
  To get a perspective on how big it is, look at the engineers in the cab and compare that to the size of the drive wheels! And it is an articulated design that pivots in the middle so it can get around sharp turns. The nest time you are stuck on a point of construction on a stunt model, remember seeing this and think that SOMEBODY had to build THAT!
   Type at you later,
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #4 on: September 12, 2021, 10:45:42 PM »
The world's largest steam locomotive restored to operation:




   Brett
Indeed!  I was in Ogden Utah to see it on its first trip after restoration in May of 2019.  Absolutely magnificent machine. 133’ long, roughly 1.2 million pounds (including tender) , 7000+ hp.   It amazes me to think of the power that can be derived from some boiling water.
Operates at 300 psi, and the superheated steam powers 4 double acting cylinders, meaning a power stroke each direction.
A close look at the side of the cab shows some numbers there. It reads
4-8-8-4-1 68  24x24x32  540. DB

The first is the wheel arrangement. 4 wheels on the pilot truck, 8 driving wheels on front engine, 8 more on rear engine, 4 wheels on trailing truck under the cab.
-1 means it was a part of the first series of 20 built.
68 is diameter of driving wheels in inches.
24x24x32.  Bore/stroke of the cylinders (shown in duplicate because of two sets)
540 is weight on drivers in thousands of pounds
DB = Dickens/Baker. Initials of the two men who designed the oil burner


If you watch videos, you will see the articulation of the two engine frames.  It’s essentially two engines under a common boiler. The rear frame is fixed with the boiler, the front pivots laterally on a pin between the rear cylinders, allowing the front frame to follow track curvature. All piping up front has sliding and pivoting joints to allow this.

As designed in 1940, these all burned coal. The tender carrying 28 tons of it, and 25000 gallons of water. Working  all out, they could consume 10 tons of coal and 12,000 gallons of water per hour!   Of the 25 built, 8 were preserved for display, with 4014 going to the fairgrounds in Pamona.   The dry climate combined with dedicated people caring for it over the decades resulted in it being found to be in the best condition of the 8, which is why 4014 was chosen for restoration.

Gary
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Offline Paul Wescott

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #5 on: September 12, 2021, 11:39:49 PM »
As designed in 1940, these all burned coal. The tender carrying 28 tons of it, and 25000 gallons of water. Working  all out, they could consume 10 tons of coal and 12,000 gallons of water per hour!   Of the 25 built, 8 were preserved for display, with 4014 going to the fairgrounds in Pamona.   The dry climate combined with dedicated people caring for it over the decades resulted in it being found to be in the best condition of the 8, which is why 4014 was chosen for restoration.

Gary

Until I see the math or more details I’m gonna have to call BS on 10 tons of coal per hour.  10 tons is 20,000 pounds per hour => 333 pounds per minute => 55 pounds every 10 seconds.  That sounds like too much to shovel or however they fed that beast.  Plus why would it carry 3 hours worth of coal and 2 hours worth of water?  That just sounds like poor planning and design.

Question: Why would they put the initials of the designers of an oil burner on the side if it runs on coal?  Go figure.

PW

Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2021, 12:06:42 AM »
Until I see the math or more details I’m gonna have to call BS on 10 tons of coal per hour.  10 tons is 20,000 pounds per hour => 333 pounds per minute => 55 pounds every 10 seconds.  That sounds like too much to shovel or however they fed that beast.  Plus why would it carry 3 hours worth of coal and 2 hours worth of water?  That just sounds like poor planning and design.

Question: Why would they put the initials of the designers of an oil burner on the side if it runs on coal?  Go figure.

PW

By the 1930’s all larger steam locomotives used a steam powered stoker system, fed by an Archimedes  screw that sat in the bottom of the coal bunker.  On one this large, hand shoveling simply was not an option.  Even just sitting awaiting an assignment, hand stoking wasn’t an option simply due to the size of the firebox. The crown sheet(top of the firebox) had to be kept heated in essentially an even manner, and a man with a shovel simply couldn’t adequately disperse the fuel, and likely couldn’t even get it to the front 1/3 of the firebox.


On this engine, given the disadvantages of coal in the present world, the locomotive was converted to burn oil. They use essentially waste oil for fuel, with the coal bunker replaced by a tank holding 6,200 gallons of oil.
This quote is right off the official Union Pacific website. Link provided. Oh, and they say 22,000 lbs (11 tons) of coal per hour.
“ Under full steam, the Big Boy was said to consume 22,000 lb (9,979 kg) of coal and 12,000 gallons (45,425 L) of water per hour.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/oldmachinepress.com/2016/12/20/union-pacific-4-8-8-4-big-boy-locomotive/amp/
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2021, 12:10:50 AM »
Magnificent beast. I have seen their Challenger, a 4-6-6-4 run, and videos of the rebuild of this one. Too bad the SP didn't keep more than one AC 12 to run as well. H^^ #^
Ty, yes indeed. They were wonderful locomotives, and most interesting with their backwards design.

Gary
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Online Steve Lotz

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2021, 04:24:18 AM »
They were converted to oil burners as many engines in the west were to eliminate trackside fires caused by fly ash and cinders from coal-burners.

Offline Perry Rose

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2021, 05:39:05 AM »

 And it can climb bridges.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline EddyR

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2021, 08:29:40 AM »
 Nice to see videos of the larger steam engines. My dad was president of railroad switchmen union in the 1950-1960’s so he and i went on many cross country trips east Chicago.
 At a museum seldom mentioned,Roanoke transportation museum in Roanoke va sits three of the most famous steam engines from the 1940’s
 2156.  Bigboy 4-8-8-4
 1218 chalanger style engine 2-6-6-4
 611 streamline
    The1218 was built in Norfolk shops in 1942 and was the second most  powerful steam engine built.
In Oct 2018 all three were still there as i took a lot of pictures at that time.
Ed
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Offline gene poremba

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #11 on: September 13, 2021, 09:01:16 AM »

 Wow! That video brings back memories of my childhood. My dad was a train buff amongst aviation. I remember chaseing steam trains with my dad so he could record  them on audio tape and photograph them too. We spent vacations going and riding steam trains where ever there was a chance....gene

Offline Dick Byron

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #12 on: September 13, 2021, 10:19:32 AM »
While living in Omaha I had a neighbor that was a U P dispatcher. He got me a ride in a Big Boy from Omaha to Cheyenne. A memory that will forever remind me of the power. Not the engine but one of the passenger cars they were pulling. 1983-84 may bee.

Offline frank williams

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2021, 10:21:51 AM »
Excellent Brett

You know as wonderful as seeing this massive machine, is listening to it.  What a beautiful rhythmical musical sound that slowly grows as the speed increases.

Offline Paul Wescott

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #14 on: September 13, 2021, 11:48:42 AM »
By the 1930’s all larger steam locomotives used a steam powered stoker system, fed by an Archimedes  screw that sat in the bottom of the coal bunker.  On one this large, hand shoveling simply was not an option.  Even just sitting awaiting an assignment, hand stoking wasn’t an option simply due to the size of the firebox. The crown sheet(top of the firebox) had to be kept heated in essentially an even manner, and a man with a shovel simply couldn’t adequately disperse the fuel, and likely couldn’t even get it to the front 1/3 of the firebox.


On this engine, given the disadvantages of coal in the present world, the locomotive was converted to burn oil. They use essentially waste oil for fuel, with the coal bunker replaced by a tank holding 6,200 gallons of oil.
This quote is right off the official Union Pacific website. Link provided. Oh, and they say 22,000 lbs (11 tons) of coal per hour.
“ Under full steam, the Big Boy was said to consume 22,000 lb (9,979 kg) of coal and 12,000 gallons (45,425 L) of water per hour.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/oldmachinepress.com/2016/12/20/union-pacific-4-8-8-4-big-boy-locomotive/amp/

EXCELLENT info Gary Thank You!  I think it’s a little bit funny that they need a steam-powered screw to feed coal into a steam-powered engine.  Where do they get the initial steam for the screw if the screw is needed to create steam, Lol?  So if that bad boy only carried coal and water for 2 hours, did they literally run it for a couple of hours and then stop for coal and water?  Who provided the tonnage of coal and water every few miles?  Doesn’t sound terribly helpful to have to stop-and-start like that.  Apologies as I’m obviously not from the steam-powered generation.  The closest I’ve been is the train at Knott’s Berry Farm (Ghost Town & Calico Railroad {Denver and Rio Grande} Narrow Gauge RGS 2-8-0 No. 41)…



Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #15 on: September 13, 2021, 12:11:13 PM »
While living in Omaha I had a neighbor that was a U P dispatcher. He got me a ride in a Big Boy from Omaha to Cheyenne. A memory that will forever remind me of the power. Not the engine but one of the passenger cars they were pulling. 1983-84 may bee.

That would have been the 4-6-6-4 Challenger locomotive that was returned to service in 81, and retired in 2019.  The Big Boy wasn’t restored until 2019.

Gary
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #16 on: September 13, 2021, 12:22:47 PM »
Paul Wescot, the railroad’s all had water plugs and coal towers scattered all over their systems.   In the last years of steam on Union Pacific, these massive engines only ran between Cheyenne and Laramie Wyoming, which on the railroad is about 76 miles. But Sherman Hill lies in between, and at 8000’ elevation, and a maximum grade of 1.55% and over 20 miles of climbing, it was a formidable obstacle. There was at least one coal tower and several water stops along the route, just in case.  A max tonnage train (about 5000 tons for one of these engines) and/or getting delayed by other higher priority trains, would usually cause the need for a stop to resupply. 

On more open and flatter sections, this was a lot better, with engines often able to cover 200+ miles without stopping.

Gary
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Offline Brett Buck

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #17 on: September 13, 2021, 01:27:35 PM »
  I think it’s a little bit funny that they need a steam-powered screw to feed coal into a steam-powered engine.  Where do they get the initial steam for the screw if the screw is needed to create steam, Lol?  So if that bad boy only carried coal and water for 2 hours, did they literally run it for a couple of hours and then stop for coal and water?  Who provided the tonnage of coal and water every few miles?  Doesn’t sound terribly helpful to have to stop-and-start like that.  Apologies as I’m obviously not from the steam-powered generation.

   Hauling it with an ox wagon is a lot less helpful!

   Getting these beasts going from cold is no small feat, and takes quite a while (> hour) and a remarkable number of steps. As Gary noted, it also takes a lot of maintenance and supplies to run it, a remarkable logistical feat. If you make a mistake (like running it out of water) - the entire thing blows up in a spectacular steam explosion.

   BTW, the stoker engine (which is what the coal auger engine was called) did run off the main boiler, they would start the fire by hand, build up steam and at rest, they needed very little coal to keep it going. Interestingly, a lot of large rocket engines work similarly, they have a small engine (turbine engine) to pump fuel into the engine (an impeller instead of a scroll), that once it is going, uses bleed pressure from the main engine to keep the pump running. You have to start it with some other combustion system to spin it up in the first place.

       But bear in mind, before steam engines, they had ox carts and on sufficiently level ground, boats in rivers and canals dragged by mules. Having something that would run 50-100-200 miles at a time at 20-40-50 mph (in the early days) was utterly transformational. It would be as if someone invented a transporter like on Star Trek, people and stuff from a long way away just suddenly appears. It fundamentally changed everyone's world - and in general made everyone's lives *much much better*.

   And, just to run the train, think what it took to maintain and supply all the stops. Across the West, there was nearly nothing built up and nearly no one. That's why the railroads were the biggest businesses in the world, the first real national companies.

   But all this support and logistics was clearly expensive, very early on, passenger trains became unprofitable, and freight paid the bills. There was a bit to getting early diesels going, too, but, to first approximation, you hit the starter and off it went, want it to run 1000 miles, stick on a bigger fuel tank. Passenger trains were diesel before war, freight was steam (fired by coal which was available in great abundance, unlike oil, which was being used for the war), but as fast as possible afterwards, all these steam beasts were retired as fast as they could get rid of them.

     Only one steam engine on a mainline railroad in the USA has never been retired - Big Boys stablemate, UP 844, a high speed passenger locomotive that was intended to safely run over 100 mph.  That one still runs, too.  Big Boy was for hauling mostly coal trains up the Wasatch mountains by itself, it usually ran around 35 mph pulling *huge* long trains, like a mile long.

    Brett

Offline Brent Williams

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2021, 01:33:25 PM »
Paul Wescot, the railroad’s all had water plugs and coal towers scattered all over their systems.   In the last years of steam on Union Pacific, these massive engines only ran between Cheyenne and Laramie Wyoming, which on the railroad is about 76 miles. But Sherman Hill lies in between, and at 8000’ elevation, and a maximum grade of 1.55% and over 20 miles of climbing, it was a formidable obstacle. There was at least one coal tower and several water stops along the route, just in case.  A max tonnage train (about 5000 tons for one of these engines) and/or getting delayed by other higher priority trains, would usually cause the need for a stop to resupply. 

On more open and flatter sections, this was a lot better, with engines often able to cover 200+ miles without stopping.

Gary

Lest we forget the 4000 series was originally to be called the Wahsatch.  Coming out of Ogden, going up Weber Canyon is a very tough grade and was a home territory for these engines. 
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #19 on: September 13, 2021, 02:02:17 PM »
Brent Williams, great pictures of the facilities at Ogden!  Cheyenne always gets the recognition, but Ogden was a big facility and division point.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2021, 03:12:28 PM »
My dad had an offer to man one of the so called whistle stops that supplied the trains with coal and water.
 My Grandfather retired from Rock Island here in KC.  My wife's Grandfather worked on one of the road gangs of the railroad until he retired.   Also the engines we call diesel were originally called diesel-electric.   The diesels run the generators that ran the the electric motor that drive the wheels/axles. D>K
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Offline Steve Dwyer

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2021, 04:03:16 PM »
My grandfather, my father's father was an engineer I'm told and only recently was verified by my son on the 1920 census for Rensselaer, NY where I grew up. The New York Central and Hudson River Railroads operated during this time. The remnants of the large concrete Rensselaer engine facility where hoppers were refilled with coal and water was still standing in the early 50's as I recall and well into the diesel era as I grew up. Most of my father's family worked for the railroad during the 30's and 40's, Rensselaer was a railroad/mill town just across the river from Albany.

In 2009 my good friend and historian Ernie Mann wrote a book called Railroads of Rensselaer. The book is an excellent resource of photos and the development of the RR in Rensselaer. The book was published by Arcadia publishing for anyone interested.
I could not find anything about the Big Boy, there are photos of massive 4-8-4 engines but nothing larger.

Fun topic,

Steve

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2021, 05:37:36 PM »
My dad had an offer to man one of the so called whistle stops that supplied the trains with coal and water.
 My Grandfather retired from Rock Island here in KC.  My wife's Grandfather worked on one of the road gangs of the railroad until he retired.   Also the engines we call diesel were originally called diesel-electric.   The diesels run the generators that ran the the electric motor that drive the wheels/axles. D>K

  Right, and that is the simplest method. Earlier internal-combustion types (diesel and gasoline) had mechanical drive with transmissions and a clutch. You can imagine how that worked out, just think about slipping the clutch on a 3500-hp engine for 5 miles until it got to speed. Steam engines can drive off with lots of torque from a dead stop.

  Essentially diesel trains are electric powered trains that carry the generator around with them. The most recent are hybrids, using regenerative braking to charge a battery when stopping, then discharging it to get going again, etc. They typically have *much* more pulling power than the biggest steam engines, if nothing else, they have vastly more traction and much better control over it. The limiting factor in all trains is the iron or steel wheels against the steel rails and wheelspin. They have a sand dispenser near the wheels to dribble sand onto the track when necessary to keep them from slipping.

        Brett

Offline John Rist

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #23 on: September 13, 2021, 06:05:50 PM »
It's interesting if you noticed that the Big Boy train also had a desal electric engine in the mix.  Back when I was working for SCI we had a contract to supply electronics to GE Transpiration, (desal electric train division).  During one of my trips to GE I learned a lot about trains.  On of the things that was explained to us was that there are enormous fines for dead on the track.  A dead train can't pull of to the side and let others pass.  I don't remember the amount but it's thousands of $ per minute.  Because of this the reliability requirements for GE hardware was the same or greater than military electronics. The other thing they mentioned is that any cross country train has at least two engines.  When things are working the two engines are running at 1/2 power.  If one quits the other one goes to full power and the train stays on schedule.  The two engines are electronically connected to each other and the power sharing and failure swap over is automatic.  Next time you see a train with two engines it's not for load capacity.  It's for reliability.  D>K
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Offline Steve Dwyer

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2021, 06:39:14 PM »
My good friend Ernie Mann responded when I asked him about the big Boy to say the following:

Hi Steve
These were built by American Locomotive Co. (ALCO) in Schenectady, NY.  They were at least the largest engines in the US. I’ve seen two of them. One was at Steamtown when it was in Bellows Falls Vt. (now in Scranton, Pa). The other was in the big transport museum near St. Louis (when my son Steve took me out to see the Yankees play the Cardinals in ’04). They were only on the Union Pacific, built to haul heavy freights over the Rockies. There are a few preserved but this one, just restored, is the only one operating. Beautiful machines!
Ern

I too had the opportunity to once visit the GE Locomotive Plant in Erie PA. while I was in plant engineering for GE. The plant was making engines, daunting experience.

Steve

Offline Tony Drago

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #25 on: September 13, 2021, 07:12:08 PM »
It's interesting if you noticed that the Big Boy train also had a desal electric engine in the mix.  Back when I was working for SCI we had a contract to supply electronics to GE Transpiration, (desal electric train division).  During one of my trips to GE I learned a lot about trains.  On of the things that was explained to us was that there are enormous fines for dead on the track.  A dead train can't pull of to the side and let others pass.  I don't remember the amount but it's thousands of $ per minute.  Because of this the reliability requirements for GE hardware was the same or greater than military electronics. The other thing they mentioned is that any cross country train has at least two engines.  When things are working the two engines are running at 1/2 power.  If one quits the other one goes to full power and the train stays on schedule.  The two engines are electronically connected to each other and the power sharing and failure swap over is automatic.  Next time you see a train with two engines it's not for load capacity.  It's for reliability.  D>K

 I have seen trains with up to 6 to 8 diesels. They were located at lest 3 to 4 up front and the others at various locations on the train. Needles to say you had a long wait at a railway crossing.

Offline Mike Griffin

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #26 on: September 13, 2021, 08:09:44 PM »
I live in Jefferson, LA and this train passed two blocks behind my house going over the Huey P. Long Bridge.  The elevated part of the track on the Huey P. Long Bridge that crosses the Mississippi River starts right behind my house and goes over the river to the West Bank.  When you are standing there looking at it, it is massive but the sound it makes is unbelievable. 

Mike

Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2021, 09:01:30 PM »
It's interesting if you noticed that the Big Boy train also had a desal electric engine in the mix.  Back when I was working for SCI we had a contract to supply electronics to GE Transpiration, (desal electric train division).  During one of my trips to GE I learned a lot about trains.  On of the things that was explained to us was that there are enormous fines for dead on the track.  A dead train can't pull of to the side and let others pass.  I don't remember the amount but it's thousands of $ per minute.  Because of this the reliability requirements for GE hardware was the same or greater than military electronics. The other thing they mentioned is that any cross country train has at least two engines.  When things are working the two engines are running at 1/2 power.  If one quits the other one goes to full power and the train stays on schedule.  The two engines are electronically connected to each other and the power sharing and failure swap over is automatic.  Next time you see a train with two engines it's not for load capacity.  It's for reliability.  D>K

The purpose of the accompanying diesel (they deliberately chose locomotive 4015 to accompany locomotive 4014….) is a mixture of things.   It it not there to help pull the train, 4014 needs no help with that. But it is there to provide emergency power in the event of mechanical problems, rather than risk tying up the main line.  Power wise it’s also there to aid turning 4014 on a wye, as tight radius curves and the long rigid wheelbase on both the engine and the tender make 4014 difficult to turn on its own. Not many places still have turntables, and most of the ones that still exist cannot accommodate a 133’ long locomotive.
Next up, the diesel acts as a superb brake.  The diesel has dynamic brakes, where the electric traction motors on the axels are turned into generators, with the resistance offering a lot of braking effort, with no wear on brake shoes that aren’t exactly in stock anymore.   This dynamic braking is also used at times simply to keep a load on the steam engine, as it simply works better under a load than if things are just freewheeling.

So it’s there for safety, for aid in turning around, and for braking.

Gary
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2021, 09:39:41 PM »
  Right, and that is the simplest method. Earlier internal-combustion types (diesel and gasoline) had mechanical drive with transmissions and a clutch. You can imagine how that worked out, just think about slipping the clutch on a 3500-hp engine for 5 miles until it got to speed. Steam engines can drive off with lots of torque from a dead stop.

  Essentially diesel trains are electric powered trains that carry the generator around with them. The most recent are hybrids, using regenerative braking to charge a battery when stopping, then discharging it to get going again, etc. They typically have *much* more pulling power than the biggest steam engines, if nothing else, they have vastly more traction and much better control over it. The limiting factor in all trains is the iron or steel wheels against the steel rails and wheelspin. They have a sand dispenser near the wheels to dribble sand onto the track when necessary to keep them from slipping.

        Brett

Brett makes a great point here, that being the application of power to the rails.  The steam locomotives start at zero hp, but have enormous torque.  Many years ago, a car magazine with bored writers decided to do a “performance test” on a steam engine. The locomotive chosen was a 2-8-2, which was a midsize freight locomotive, of a significantly older design than 4014.  Smaller cylinders, then only two instead of 4 as here, and boiler pressure was 225 psi, compared to 4014’s 300 psi.   The striking thing was the torque rating, which was almost 128,000 lbs-ft at……zero rpm!   How does that figure compare to someone’s diesel pick up!!!    With this engines larger cylinders, and 300psi boiler, I’ll wager torque would approach 250,000 lbs-ft +.  I think they combined both cylinders in their calculation, so with 4 here….

Horsepower easily goes to steam here as well.   Early into the career of the 4000 class engines , the railroad did a HP test.  The result was 6290 hp at the drawbar.   This was for an early engine in as-delivered condition, and not working at maximum potential. A few things to consider are that these engines, as delivered, were found to have a less than optimal design to the exhaust nozzles, two of which are inside the smoke box up front (silver part). These direct the exhausted steam  and combustion gasses up and out the stacks. It was found that they limited draft, and has considerable effect on HP potential. Serval variations were tried, and eventually a design was settled on that improved performance considerably.  It’s believed that this change  added  20+% to potential hp. 
Then we come to 4014 in its rebuilt configuration. The cylinders were bored out from 23.75” diameter to 24”. This has a significant impact on power, both HP and tractive effort. Raising the latter from 135,375lbs (straight line pull) to 138,400.   In practice it was believed that the 4000’s were regularly able to exceed 7000 hp, and today this one can do better than any of its brethren. Ed Dickens, head engineer and director of heritage operations, regularly describes it as easily a 7000+ hp locomotive.

Now to the problem.  Application of this power. The power is applied to the wheels in 4 impulses per revolution. This means nothing at speed, but in starting out, it means they are prone to slipping. A diesel of much smaller scale can start a heavier train from a dead stop than a much larger steam locomotive can. The benefit is from the almost continuous application of power throughout the entire wheel revolution, making application much more uniform.  Add to this modern computerized wheel slip controls (think traction control) and the result is that, below about 15 mph, diesel 4015 has a much greater ability to pull that steam engine 4014, despite its 4000hp being dwarfed by what the latter can produce as they get going.  4015 can produce about 170,000lbs of starting tractive effort to 4014’s 138,400.  But once past that 15mph mark the situation reverses in a hurry, with diesel HP starting to drop as steam hp continues to increase, and while all locomotives loose tractive effort as speed increases, steam looses a lesser percentage of its total.

Want to get a train moving, use a diesel electric locomotive. Want to keep it moving, use steam.  Problem was that steam was so inefficient (the best engines turned perhaps 11% of their fuels energy into motion) and they were mechanical nightmares to maintain compared to diesel power.

Gary
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Offline Steve_Pollock

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2021, 11:57:41 AM »
Got to see this one at a grade crossing just east of La Grande, Oregon, in the mid-'90s.  The ground shook ...

Offline John Hammonds

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2021, 01:57:53 PM »
Came across a Cab view on Youtube.


Back in the 1970's there was a theme park called "Dobwalls Adventure park" near Liskeard Cornwall (UK). I remember going the year it opened in 1970 and many times during its life I think it's a housing estate now. :( It was based on the American Railroad and had an amazing Bigboy. I have no idea what happened to the trains when it shut down but I would hope they found good homes.

https://www.jhluxton.com/The-35mm-Film-Archive/Railways/Forest-Railroad-Dobwalls-Cornw/

TTFN
John.

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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #31 on: September 14, 2021, 04:39:54 PM »
Got to see this one at a grade crossing just east of La Grande, Oregon, in the mid-'90s.  The ground shook ...
That was their Challenger locomotive, 3985.   It’s been retired now. I’ve see it as well.  4014 is that ones big brother !  11’ longer, 100,000lbs heavier…

Gary
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Offline Gary Dowler

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Re: OT but generally cool
« Reply #32 on: September 14, 2021, 04:46:18 PM »
Came across a Cab view on Youtube.


Back in the 1970's there was a theme park called "Dobwalls Adventure park" near Liskeard Cornwall (UK). I remember going the year it opened in 1970 and many times during its life I think it's a housing estate now. :( It was based on the American Railroad and had an amazing Bigboy. I have no idea what happened to the trains when it shut down but I would hope they found good homes.

https://www.jhluxton.com/The-35mm-Film-Archive/Railways/Forest-Railroad-Dobwalls-Cornw/

TTFN
John.
Wow, that was quite interesting!  What an amazing thing he built. That scale model of the big boy was 1.5” scale, or 1/8. Such a model weighs about 2500 lbs.  I believe that locomotive now is in New Zealand and it’s still in use today.

Gary
Profanity is the crutch of the illiterate mind


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