Opinions wanted

[riley wooten]

Someone sent me site to look at on eBay where a guy was selling Quicker plans (MAN 1957) complete with mag. article, photos and all.
I had no knowledge of this until then and he did not ask my permision.. Since lasers came along there is a lot of piracy of both plans and
kits..... To me it is an invasion of privacy and probably illegal....

I would like to know what others think......
RW

[bill bischoff]

I wonder about this also. I suppose the argument the seller would make would be something like "Nobody would care if I sold the actual magazine, so how is this really any different? Besides, I'm not charging for the content, just the disc and my labor". Hard to know. Also, what was your agreement with the magazine when the design was published? If the magazine owns the rights, you may have no recourse.

[john e. holliday]

I know this has been going on for a while.   I got the magazine article from one guy and then got plans from Barry Baxter who I think got permission to sell them.   As far as disc, I know Tom Wilk was putting plans on discs as well as magazine articles.  But, you had to have someone blow them up to size.   Then there is the person on  the Canadian side of the border that is selling individual discs of plans and articles.

I have several designs produces by another individual which were reduced in size.   Don't know if that would apply or not.  But, if you are still getting royalties, it would be up to you if it is worth the money and time to go after them.

[Tim Wescott]

Not illegal in the sense that you can interest the cops.

But very possibly illegal in the sense that you (or MAN's successors) can sue the guy, assuming that you can find him.

Whether you or the successors to MAN own the copyright probably depends on a gazzilion little legal points, but unless you signed away all your rights to MAN when you wrote the article in 1957, and he bought those rights from MAN, then whatever ownership of the copyright there is certainly doesn't reside with him.

Having published a few technical articles and a book, I was surprised that Flying Models published my stuff without any contract being signed (or, for that matter, money passing hands).  I know that Elsevier made me sign a contract detailed enough that it almost dictated what to do with my fingernail clippings -- with the book, I may be screwed, but at least I know where I stand.

I kind of figure that in this day and age, anything that I write that gets published is either a donation to the world at large, self-propagating advertising for my consulting business (not much of my model airplane stuff falls in that category), or both.

But -- you can send him a letter demanding that he stop selling your copyrighted work, and you can copy it to eBay.

[Frank Imbriaco]

If it's the same person from Canada, he has also taken liberty to  offer for sale on eBay  the article with scaled down  plans for my "Scrambler " combat design published in M.A.N.  back in 1972 ;along with several of Scarinzi's designs and some stunters  from the sixties.
In my situation,  I was required to sign all  rights over to M.A.N. as part of the publishing agreement; so I  assume that I  have no recourse. Doubt that the publishers would  go after him, but one never knows.

 I   do feel that the "pirate" should contact each designer and publisher for permission before capitalizing.

[Joejust]

In  his last letter to me Harold DeBolt noted that he was upset that not one of the people that re-introduced his control line planes ever asked him if it were ok.  He then said he would have given them a positive reply plus insides to how the design came about and its history when he flew it.  The lack of knowleedge about creative rights gives some their undeserved right to "pirate"  anything they want including videos, music or  printed material.  I even had a young person tell me  "Hey Dude, it's no big deal, who cares"!
Joe

[EddyR]

In  his last letter to me Harold DeBolt noted that he was upset that not one of the people that re-introduced his control line planes ever asked him if it were ok.  He then said he would have given them a positive reply plus insides to how the design came about and its history when he flew it.  The lack of knowleedge about creative rights gives some their undeserved right to "pirate"  anything they want including videos, music or  printed material.  I even had a young person tell me  "Hey Dude, it's no big deal, who cares"!
Joe

Joe   I asked Harold many years ago about releasing the All American Sr as he first built it and he told me it would be OK with him and he would add a note saying the model as presented would be correct. It is  different than the 1950 Kit. I have told the story about it on here several times over the years. I lived near Harold in central Florida for a long time and I had him sign off on the redrawn plans.. I guess his memory lost a little bit near the end.  I just got a nice gift from a friend in Florida. a big box full of many of Harold's early RC plans. Some never published and the original masters  of a few CL models. Some are hand drawn.
Ed

[dankar]

I feel that pirates steal other folks work. I see plans for planes still in production but thief lives in another country. Without permission from original designer is flat out stealing and guy is low life and do anything for a buck.

[Mike Griffin]

Hi Riley,

I can tell you from a small cottage kit manufacturer like myself, I have done some kit runs of some very desired designs from some of the great designers in our hobby.  I ALWAYS contact them personally for permission to kit their designs or if they have passed on, I will contact the person who inherited or bought the rights to the design.  I know recently I wanted to kit Bob Palmer's Skyscraper and I thought John Brodak owned the rights to the plane.  When I called John he said he did not but put me in touch with the person who did own the rights for that particular design.  He was glad to give me permission to kit the design if I wanted.  I recently called Jack Sheeks to get his permission to kit his Scottsman and he was happy for me to do it.  You also may have to contact publishers sometimes..I have contacted Flying Models magazine a couple of times asking if they minded if I kitted a design.  I Flying Models case, you usually do not get a reply so you just wait a couple of months and do what you feel is right.  If you remember, a couple of years ago I called you about kitting the VooDoo and you told me at the time that you really did not want to give the rights to anyone else and I certainly never kitted the plane as per your request.  I certainly respected your wishes.  However 99% of the time I have found that most guys are tickled for you to kit their designs and they appreciate the fact you ask.

This all goes to what is called intellectual rights to a design or product.  I am not a lawyer but to me it is just common sense and common courtesy to ask before you do something.  If the designer or plans company has been gone for 60 years I would think if you wanted to use that plan it would be OK.

Ebay is a different story.  There are a lot of people on their who have no respect for anyone's intellectual property or even have an idea what that is...they figure that the person is not going to spend the money for court costs to challange them and most of the time they are right.  But I still think it makes them slimeballs for doing it...

Mike

[FLOYD CARTER]

It's a sticky issue, and some legal guidelines would be helpful.

1.  I've sold plans published by others.  Now, am I profiting illegally, or is this simply a re-sale of something I have       already paid for?

2.  Model Aviation, Model Builder, and some lesser publications, do NOT require any "exclusive" deal, signed by me.  But, I think that if the magazine pays upon publication, then they own the design.  I would not "sell" reprints of my designs which were published.

Floyd

[Tim Wescott]

It's a sticky issue, and some legal guidelines would be helpful.

1.  I've sold plans published by others.  Now, am I profiting illegally, or is this simply a re-sale of something I have       already paid for?

Unless the plans came with the same notice that software does these days about one use, only installed on one machine, blah blah, etc., then if you sell plans as you bought them, and not plans that you Xeroxed, then you're re-selling something that you've already paid for.

2.  Model Aviation, Model Builder, and some lesser publications, do NOT require any "exclusive" deal, signed by me.  But, I think that if the magazine pays upon publication, then they own the design.  I would not "sell" reprints of my designs which were published.

I'm not sure what the law says.  But every article that I've sold to a professional magazine has been preceded by a contract that specified just what rights I was selling and just what rights I was retaining.  I rather suspect from all the attention paid that the law is vague.

However, the law is clear that if you sign a contract and receive something of value in return, then whatever the contract says is the 'law' in that case.

[Clancy Arnold]

I know the feeling!

I started selling my U/Tronics Control units in 1983.  Bill Boss asked how they worked and I made a mistake and sent Bill a copy of my schematic for his personal information.  A few months later the schematic appeared in his CL Scale Column.  

Within a year I got calls from three different modelers, who I had never heard of, that were having problems with their U/Tronics Control units.  I asked each where he obtained the units and they each named a different person who was selling them. I told them that they should send them back to whoever they got them from for repair.

I went back to the drawing Bill had posted in his column and saw that he had redrawn it and had made a mistake in it.  I sold no more U/Tronics units until 2005 when an old customer asked for an additional system.  I sold him the last units I had remaining.

Is there a market out there?  I tried to obtain the parts to build more units but the IC's were no longer being manufactured.  Back to the design bench.  The new designs have now been shipped to 25 States and 9 Foreign Countries.  Schematics are NOT available.
Clancy

[Brett Buck]

Someone sent me site to look at on eBay where a guy was selling Quicker plans (MAN 1957) complete with mag. article, photos and all.
I had no knowledge of this until then and he did not ask my permision.. Since lasers came along there is a lot of piracy of both plans and
kits..... To me it is an invasion of privacy and probably illegal....

I would like to know what others think......

   I think it's pretty crummy, but it depends on what the original contract with MAN said - if you retained the copyright and granted MAN only permission to sell the plans, then you still hold it and can legally prevent just about any use you want aside from selling via MAN.

     If you sold the copyright to MAN, then whoever currently holds MAN's property owns it.

 In either case, copying and selling it would require someone's permission. IF they don't defend the copyright, it could conceivably get turned into public domain, but that would be a matter for the courts.

   Copyright law is both complex and in some cases absurd, so it takes someone with a twisted mind to figure it all out - a lawyer.

     Brett

[Tim Wescott]

Copyright law is both complex and in some cases absurd, so it takes someone with a twisted mind to figure it all out - a lawyer.

I've seen other threads, here and on other forums, on this general topic.  It would be nice if there were some article out there written by someone knowledgeable (yes, maybe even a lawyer) on just what the legalities are.  If anyone runs across something -- post links!!

I know what some of them are, but when you get into specifics of who owns what when no one signed a contract -- you need a lawyer.

'Cause I don't want to buy something that the seller doesn't have rights to, particularly if the author doesn't want it sold.  OTOH, if there's someone with no rights to the copyright, screaming at me not to buy -- well, I may just want to go ahead and buy anyway.

[Avaiojet]

Possibly but not in all cases, generally the designer gives up his rights to plans when published. It's because the Magazine pays the designer for the plans and the rights to sell them.

So, no issue if the Magazine sells them. The issue is the Magazine's if they are bootlegged coppied and sold.

The designer, in some cases, has already given up his rights.

I could be wrong?   

Charles

[Tim Wescott]

Possibly but not in all cases, generally the designer gives up his rights to plans when published. It's because the Magazine pays the designer for the plans and the rights to sell them.

So, no issue if the Magazine sells them. The issue is the Magazine's if they are bootlegged coppied and sold.

The designer, in some cases, has already given up his rights.

I could be wrong?   

Heh, I wanted a write-up, and I didn't think to look at the Font of All (unreliable) Knowledge:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copyright_law_of_the_United_States#Exclusive_rights

If Wikipedia is to be believed, then the designer has only given up his rights if he has signed a contract to that effect with the magazine in question.  With just money changing hands the magazine has non-exclusive rights (this is consistent with what I thought).

Interesting stuff in there about objects 'd art, the copyrightability of 3-D realizations of 2-D plans, etc.  Lots of gray areas to ponder if we ever decide to start suing each other for sport, instead of competing in the circle.

[Dick Pacini]

I sold my SSIII to Flying Models Magazine in late 1972.  It (article, plans and photos) was published in the January 1973 issue.  I was paid $135 for the package.  It was my understanding that endorsing the check was giving all rights to the magazine.

Still I believe the plans could be redrawn using today's methods using CAD and current building techniques without causing a problem.  I also believe that the model could be kitted to those plans without an issue, as long as I gave my permission.  As far as model name infringement, just call it a Nobler.  Everybody and his Uncle Charlie have produced them in various degrees of pedigree and poetic license.

[George]

I would like to know what others think......
RW

 

Riley,

i think you should make up your own package with plans, insight on the design, and a few pictures. Nothing like getting a set from the original designer.

I remember back in 1957 cutting parts and sanding for a Quicker group build (3 or 4 guys). Those were the days.

George

[Geoff Goodworth]

I have a case where I am currently working up a CAD drawing of a Classic design that was published by Model Airplane News. I intend to laser-cut the parts.

I have had discussions with the designer who has given the project his blessing and has added some background information that I didn't know.

I contacted MAN to see whether they had the plan and they said no. We have all heard the stories of CL plans on the floor being walked over at MAN some time in the past but they spun me a tale about plans getting damaged so they have to be discontinued. Problem was, the designer told me how MAN paid him a premium because he supplied themm with a drawing—ink on linen. Even walked on, I've never sesen a linen drawing become unuseable.

In that case, I don't think it matters what MAN thinks, they couldn't supply.

Everything else I've done has had the designer's support—even personal projects.

In Riley's case, one question that I think needs to be addressed is, 'Can MAN supply the plan?'

[dale gleason]

Forgive me as I wax reminiscent...In 1957 I was getting shipped to Japan, the whole family was, my Dad being in the USAF. I was used to pulling up roots every two or three years, being a brat, but Japan?....that sure seemed a long way from the hobby shop.

But, the Quicker had won the NATs, Sweet Sweeps were cool, but Quickers ate them for lunch. The hobby shop owner, Clifford T.Stinson, cut me a Quicker kit on his band saw and gave it to me as a going away present. I had the first Sweep in Japan, but it was soon followed by my Quicker. While in Japan, Goldberg came out with a Quicker kit, but it had a thin wing and didn't fly as well as the one Cliff gave me.

Sorry to torpedo your thread, Riley, just couldn't help myself.......a hundred years from now, it probably won't make much difference,
no matter who kits what, Quickers, Voodoos, Sneekers, we all know where they came from. That's what matters.......

dale g

Invent the Quicker.....
Sell a lot of balsa,
JCT? don't make me snicker,
JCT don't dig salsa....

[proparc]

You think this is something. Joe Bridi and his great Kaos RC pattern design, opened up a whole can of legal worms that is still going on to this day.

[Scott Hartford]

A little satisfaction could be had by a few guys buying these items from the guy and then giving him negative feedback and leaving a comment about selling others work...

[Dennis Adamisin]

If they are selling the Quicker as published in MAN then that is a differenct issue than selling "RILEY WOOTEN'S Quicker". 

If they are using your name to promote their product without your permission then you might have somethng to go after.

[Tom Niebuhr]

I have permission for everything that I have kitted. I respect the rights of the magazine AND the designer. I inked the "Jerseyan" plans in the late .60s.  I still asked John D'Ottavio for permission to build one in the 80s. We later worked together to publish the "Jerseyan" in Model Aviation a few years ago.

The problem with patents and I guess with copyrights, is that people violating the patents are rarely challenged because it costs more to defend the rights than you will make for the item over a period of selling it. This is a major problem in industry.

[George]

A little satisfaction could be had by a few guys buying these items from the guy and then giving him negative feedback and leaving a comment about selling others work...

Has anyone talked with the guy? He may think he is providing a service to modelers.

George

[Avaiojet]

In 1972, I designed a bumper sticker. "TENNIS ANYONE?"

Advertised it in all the Tennis trade magazines, they were selling like hot cakes. Then one day I received a Lawyer's letter asking me, politely, to stop selling them because of a Game called "Tennis Anyone?"

I sent a letter back telling the Lawyer I would give him a discount on a volume order if he wouldn't persue the issue. I also told him, the people with the Game, could have some for free.

Never heard from him again.

True story.

Charles

[Larry Lindburg]

Riley,  This is my opinion: Tell the vendor to cease and desist selling your design.  If the vendor does not agree to stop, contact Ebay.