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Author Topic: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS  (Read 2348 times)

Offline Steve Dwyer

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Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« on: September 01, 2021, 06:32:22 PM »
Back in 2013 there were several inquiries for Luciano Compostella's Falco Bipe plans. I did find the attached LC sketch, did anyone have any luck locating a building set?

Steve
 

Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2021, 01:21:15 PM »
Steve - when I flew with Luciano around twenty years ago, he gave me that plan (and signed it!).
As you can see, the upper wing is swept with no flaps.
The lower wing has flaps and is straight.
As I recall, it weighed around 60 ounces.
Span around 47 inches.

All ribs are the same, no taper  or incidence at all.

The one I saw was powered by an OS Surpass 48 and flew beautifully.

Back then, he was one of the top European flyers and a true gentleman.

You should have no problem building it from that plan. Just scale it up until the wingspan in 47 inches.

Bob Z.


Offline Steve Dwyer

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2021, 07:15:08 AM »
Bob,

Thanks for responding, I agree building from this sketch is very doable. Do you know if anyone built another Falco? Mike Griffin was intent on finding more info back when to kit the model. He's been flooded out right now and probably out of the picture. I have looked thru the 2013 archives and flying video of the Falco doing the pattern, Luciano was impressive in the air.

I've never built a bipe before or flew one for that matter, I'd think the challenge would be securing the upper wing on struts without adding unwanted weight for CL stunt. Do you recall if the wings were silked it came in around 60 oz with I believe a 4 stroke 46 in it.  I wonder why most builds have the bell crank mid positioned between the wings with exposed lead outs as opposed the thru the lower wing? I realize a low wing has a tendency to be a bit unstable about the longitudinal axis but perhaps the upper wing would dampen most of this?? This may be a topic for some of our design minded folks here to respond to.

There's something beautiful about a biplane, I was going to build a Hatz years back but built a RV9 instead. I guess the cold months in the northeast drove me to being practical about a closed cockpit.

Steve


Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2021, 09:02:18 AM »
Hi.
As Bob has already told you, the triptych is the only drawing available for this model, otherwise Luciano would not have hesitated a second to pay homage to Bob of the life-size drawing.
Luciano had drawn the various parts of the model on messy sheets of paper and when people saw him (the project and the qualities of the flight were fascinating) he began to ask for the design, so to satisfy the requests and curiosity decided at a later  to make a 1/5 scale drawing on graph paper.
However to answer your question, the two models that Luciano made had the rear part of the wing (from the D-box to the trailing edge) covered with silk.

Massimo

Offline Steve Dwyer

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2021, 02:16:23 PM »
Massimo,

Two models made? You are saying he built two Falcos? The photos show a biplane with the traditional colors of Italy(??) and the video at the 92 WC appears to be yellow or it's the same model and the color in the air is deceiving. Covered from the D -box to the trailing edge, I assume this means from the spar back? I don't think I've seen this done before.

Steve

Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2021, 02:42:41 PM »
When I was working for Agusta Helicopters in the late 90s, I was able to hook up with Luciano and some of his fellow flyers. I arranged my engineering meetings for Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. My company paid for three extra days so I could fly with the group on the weekend.

Here are a few photos from that time.

First is Luciano's second Falco which I saw him fly. Superb pilot!
Next photo is Luciano with his "Magik"  - pretty sure he won the European championship with it.
Third photo shows some of the group (Gruppo Modellistico Monzese) - Alberto Maggi, Clemente Cappi, Massimo Semolli and Luciano. That's me kneeling with Clemente's plane. Don't know who the little guy is!
Forth photo: More members of the GMM. I don't know them all but you can see Luciano on the left, second row with his first Falco.

All of these fellows were excellent pilots and Massimo was/is an FAI official.

Massimo and his family visited me when I lived in PA.

Bob Z.

Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2021, 03:37:23 PM »
Massimo,

Two models made? You are saying he built two Falcos? The photos show a biplane with the traditional colors of Italy(??) and the video at the 92 WC appears to be yellow or it's the same model and the color in the air is deceiving. Covered from the D -box to the trailing edge, I assume this means from the spar back? I don't think I've seen this done before.

Steve

I probably made a mess of my bad English.  The front of the wing is covered in balsa and the back is covered in silk.  There are two models, if you look at Bob's photo you see the yellow one.

Massimo

Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2021, 03:44:54 PM »
 S?P

All of these fellows were excellent pilots and Massimo was/is an FAI official.

Massimo and his family visited me when I lived in PA.

Bob Z.

Bob, I'm not Massimo Semoli.

Offline Steve Dwyer

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2021, 05:50:14 PM »
WOW!! Great shots and story.  I'm sure this chat brings back memories of 30 years for you guys. I like the Falco and I may develop an actual size plan this winter to follow with building it if time allows. Luciano's sketch is a great resource.

I don't speak Italian so I can't say thanks in your native tongue, you'll have to settle with good old USA English.

Thanks for the info, I appreciate it! When I get around to the build I'll keep in touch.

Steve

Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2021, 11:13:36 PM »
One detail that is missing, the yellow model had a closed cockpit.

Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2021, 12:05:00 PM »
S?P
Bob, I'm not Massimo Semoli.

Massimo - my apologies for the confusion. I did not mean to imply that you are Massimo Semoli.
I have not seen him in many years and I would like to re-connect.
Do you know his contact information?

Bob Z.

Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2021, 12:11:11 PM »
On the topic of Luciano:
Here are the plans of another masterpiece. I saw the plane when I visited him at his house.
The plane has a 57.5 inch wingspan and weighs 69 ounces.
It's powered by a Webra T4-60 rotary valve four-cycle engine which weighs as I recall weighs around 16 ounces!

Check out the number of victories he has won with it.

Bob Z.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #12 on: September 04, 2021, 02:34:00 PM »
Bob. the old DOC really likes this last one,  of course I could not fly it.  By the way you are very lucky to get to know these people and fly with them.  You may not remember but I met you at a swap meet here in the Kansas City area many years ago and again at Brodaks the one year I was there. H^^
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Steve Dwyer

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #13 on: September 04, 2021, 06:51:54 PM »
Bob,

The configuration of the Lampo leaves one thinking it'd be excellent in the air, too bad we can't watch a video. 

Check out the photo of his Magik below. He sure has a good deal of flap deflection in comparison the the elevator. Could this be the basis for the sharp corners we see in his pattern?

Steve

Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #14 on: September 05, 2021, 10:05:16 AM »
Massimo - my apologies for the confusion. I did not mean to imply that you are Massimo Semoli.
I have not seen him in many years and I would like to re-connect.
Do you know his contact information?

Bob Z.

Hi Bob.
No problem, Massimo Semoli and I have been friends for many years, my note was only to avoid misunderstandings.
Check your PM

Massimo

Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2021, 10:31:32 AM »
Bob,

The configuration of the Lampo leaves one thinking it'd be excellent in the air, too bad we can't watch a video. 

Check out the photo of his Magik below. He sure has a good deal of flap deflection in comparison the the elevator. Could this be the basis for the sharp corners we see in his pattern?

Steve

Hi Steve.
There was nothing secret about Luciano's models and if you looked at him during the flight you could see that he actually used very little of that deflection (which, however, has a 1:1 ratio, for him it was almost a given of faith) ......
I and others in the group flew HIS models several times (sometimes he wanted to personally observe the flight from outside the circle). We built "exactly" the same model but in many cases his models flew better (?????)
The trick is described in the topics of this forum
A robust and accurate construction
A solid and "extremely" smooth control system.
A meticulous set-up (the center of gravity slightly further back than others ...)
And above all ... the pilot's wrist must be that of a champion.

Massimo

Offline Steve Dwyer

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #16 on: September 06, 2021, 09:12:51 AM »
Massimo,

Your description of Luciano's builds speaks volumes as to why he did so well competitively.  He obviously had the touch to build or "chemistry" not all have, on the other hand his flying skills no doubt enabled him probably to fly well whatever he built???

I'm attempting to understand how he attached the upper wing, it appears to be permanent. Looking around, many designs have used bolt on configurations where a tab protruding through the fabric or a screwed on metal tab was used to mechanically make the attachment. The heavier mechanical method seems more popular in RC where wing loading especially for scale models is not as critical.

Luciano's sketch shows what looks as a double rib (fourth from the tip). I wonder if this was a plywood pair that sandwiched the strut. Further, did he cover the wing panel and simply slide the strut through a slit in the fabric holding it with a touch of CA? What prevented the slit from growing out into the open bay? I've thought about 1/16" sheeting between the ribs at the strut for the fabric to adhere to. Weight for our purpose in CL stunt is a major concern here.

Steve

Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2021, 09:54:32 AM »
Hi.
The two Falco were built in one piece, no part of the model could be separated.
The struts entered the wing through the ribs reinforcements and (if I remember correctly) the corresponding ribs were entirely made of plywood (but I could be wrong as I have not seen the structure under construction but only the finished models).
As far as weight is concerned, Luciano has always been against the "Zero Once" model, his first goal was sturdiness (and here I think he would have been in good company).

Massimo

Offline Steve Dwyer

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2021, 01:40:28 PM »
Massimo,

Thanks, it would appear his method of securing the the wings would be most logical looking at the photos.

Would you have any idea if he built the entire configuration attaching the wings and struts following with the covering? Did you notice if he had sheeting on the wings where the struts attached in order to secure the silk covering?

Steve


Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2021, 03:54:26 PM »
My advice would be dont build a biplane for Stunt.

If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

...
 I Yearn for a world where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.

Offline Steve Dwyer

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #20 on: September 06, 2021, 05:15:01 PM »
PJ,

Sage advice?  I have read some threads from past Bipe builders many whom came away unhappy with their models performance in the pattern.
 
Have you seen the Falco in the pattern video? The challenge is to build a model to match Luciano's.

You care to elaborate on why recommend staying away.

Steve

Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #21 on: September 06, 2021, 11:52:55 PM »
My advice would be dont build a biplane for Stunt.

Hi PJ,

I agree with your opinion but it must be considered that probably many advise not to build a four-engine for stunt.
Nevertheless "someone" flew in a world championship with a four-engine, many times the problem is "who" and "how" not "what"

Massimo
« Last Edit: September 07, 2021, 02:42:43 AM by Massimo Rimoldi »

Offline Massimo Rimoldi

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2021, 11:57:56 PM »
Massimo,

Thanks, it would appear his method of securing the the wings would be most logical looking at the photos.

Would you have any idea if he built the entire configuration attaching the wings and struts following with the covering? Did you notice if he had sheeting on the wings where the struts attached in order to secure the silk covering?

Steve

Hi steve.

I'm sorry I can't help you, the outside of the wing showed no signs of reinforcement of any kind.

Massimo

Offline Kim Doherty

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #23 on: September 07, 2021, 09:27:53 AM »
My advice would be dont build a biplane for Stunt.

I was there in 1992 in Hradecs Kralove. I know Luciano and I saw this biplane fly. It flew quite well. (Well enough that it is very worthy of being built) Luciano placed 17th if I am right. Some very well known names (Listopad, Maggi, Salenek, Yatsenko, Strakhov, Billon, Delabarde) placed below him. Was it the “the best flying model I have ever seen”? Probably not. But to get to the sharp end of the tack, a lot of people would love to place 17th at an FAI F2B World Championship. Right P.J. ?

Another more practical way of looking at who wins and who does not is this saying:

                                    “Talent can be so depressing!”

Kim

Offline PJ Rowland

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Re: Old Topic FALCO BIPE PLANS
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2021, 05:03:40 PM »
Ohh I see how this goes...

In fairness I said dont build a biplane based on a 4 year development project I did. Ended up using the airframe as a test bed for the electric system after It placed 4th at the Nats..

If I thought there were ANY benifit to running a biplane I would have pursued further development than 2 versions.. but in the interests of NOT wasting peoples time my advice would be " aerodynamically no benefit for stunt because it doesnt solve ANY problems"

There are atleast 4 reasons for this all which cannot be addressed with a biplane platform.


Kim , im going to completely ignore your attempt to say Im not good enough know what im doing.
If you always put limit on everything you do, physical or anything else. It will spread into your work and into your life. There are no limits. There are only plateaus, and you must not stay there, you must go beyond them.” - Bruce Lee.

...
 I Yearn for a world where chickens can cross the road without having their motives questioned.


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