Old Speed planes

[goozgog]

  I know nothing about C/L Speed flying
from the good old days but these two
planes were passed along to a safe
haven in my den.
  Some of the Combat and Speed guys
might remember Ross Melhuish who passed
away recently.

   I have been told that the blue plane is
for "B" Speed. The engine is a Johnson .29R
and it seems in reasonable condition. It came
to me well oiled and clean.
   
   The orange plane has a fuel cut off, so
I'm guessing that it's some sort of team racer.
   The engine is a rear induction SuperTiger .40.
I've flipped a lot of engines but the SNAP(!) that
this one makes as it goes through TDC is
amazing. I've never seen anything like it before.
The plane is rough but the mill has been cleaned
and oiled.

   I might run these just once before putting
them on the shelf. I'd use Fox type
28% oil/ 10% nitro fuel.

   I'd appreciate any information and thoughts
about these planes since I know absolutely
nothing about them.

See you at Brodaks! - Keith Morgan
   

[C.T. Schaefer]

My guess is B-Team race and Rat race planes. Cool look at days gone by!

[Paul Smith]

The twin boom plane is a Rat from the middle 1960's.  It's powered by a Supertiger G21/40 and should go about 110 MPH on 20-30 nitro with 20% oil.

The little blue one is a B Team Racer.  The event was dieing in the early 60's and was dropped from The Rule Book in 1965.  Rat & Goodyear had taken over.

B Team Race rules required a fully enclosed engine, fuel shutoff, one ounce tank, very rigid airframe constraints.

Unlike today's F2C, you could not just buy the right stuff.   While F2C is costly, for money you can buy in.
The barrier to B TR was the .29 that went fast, conserved fuel, and the biggie - RESTARTED hot.
I never saw anybody get a decent run on a B TR.  And I saw some pretty good people try.
Today there is a retro B TR movement.  With a MODERN engine you might be able to use the old plane.

[Paul Smith]

Maybe Ross took George Aldrich's advice and stored the engine with a squirt of Rizilone.  They stay loose forever with Rizilone.

If I wanted to use the B TR I would put an OS FP, FS, of FX in it.  The Johnson 29R might be healthy, but I wouldn't bet on it.  A collector might offer big bucks for it.

[Dan Berry]

The twin boom plane is a Rat from the middle 1960's.  It's powered by a Supertiger G21/40 and should go about 110 MPH on 20-30 nitro with 10% oil.

It won't do it for long on 10% oil! 

[bob whitney]

 the blue ship is almost too small for B TR ,more like a B Proto. BTR needed to be 2 in wide at the cockpit and 4 in deep from bottom of fuse to top of pilots head  tr wing needs to be 125 sq in out side the fuse, prot includes the wing in the fuse

[Paul Smith]

It won't do it for long on 10% oil! 

OK, use 20.   Our local fuel man had a lot of money and he wanted to win.

[goozgog]

Thanks Guys!

         If I do run these, I won't care
if they go fast or not, so it will be
LOTS of castor.
   Thanks for taking the time to reply.
I promise to keep these planes safe.

- K.

[Motorman]

The little blue one is a B Team Racer.  The event was dieing in the early 60's and was dropped from The Rule Book in 1965.  

Not true, B team was the biggest racing event and the year they dropped it they had the biggest turn out at the nats ever. Bad move AMA.

The blue one could also be a B proto speed.

MM

[M Spencer]

Wear a GLOVE with the S.T. Red Rat Racer .

B T/R with the 21/29 they got 120 mph max , on 20% nitro ' range ' brew . probly 20 % oil .

Nice Hairey Planes . 

[Gordon Van Tighem]

Brings back memories as I recall racing against the twin boomer in the early '70s with my yellow Royal Rodent. My year in the Toronto headlights.....
G

[john e. holliday]

Yes that is a proto speed ship.   As Bob W. says fuselage is not big enough.

[GregArdill]

The Australian Proto rules specify the model as identical to B TR models.

The intent of Proto was to garner interest in speed flying from Team Race fliers, and it was thought that they could use a B TR model in the proto event without modification and they'd be competing against similar models.

Maybe your US rules are different, or they just stopped policing the rules about fuse sizes??

[Trostle]

England used to have two classes of team race, A and B.  The A ships were up to 2.5cc (I think), and the B ships were up to 5cc (which is equivalent to our .29's).  They had a lot of good looking ships.  And some "interesting" ones also.


I do not know if New Zealand still does their versions of team racers.  They had three classes.  The larger one was up to 10CC (.60 size racers).  Would have been interesting to see.

Keith

[goozgog]

  I measured the blue plane and the fuselage
is exactly two inches wide at the wing root
back to the canopy and it's exactly four inches
deep from the bottom of the firewall to the top
of the little black canopy.
I should have measured it sooner.

   Mr Trostel, you reminded me of a plane I bought,
as a boy in London from one of me mates. (1969)
An orange monocoat covered F1 (Goodyear?) plane
with a 2.5 cc diesel. I think it was a "Snipe" with
a red anodized head. The plane did not have a fuel
cut off.
   The best part of the memory was dodging the police
because we tried flying on Wimbledon Common.
Sort of like flying in New York's Central Park without
mufflers.
   The other good thing was mixing fuel from "paraffin",
castor and ether that we bought at the chemists.
(drug store). I'll bet that they wouldn't sell kids a
pint of ether now. OMG.

Cheers! - ( the other Keith. aka Goozgog)

[EddyR]

I did TR many moons ago but never saw a Johnson .29r That may be quite valuable to a collector.
Ed

[John Park]

The ME (Marown Engineering) "Snipe" diesel was actually 1.5 cc - well-made, easy to operate and an excellent beginner's engine.  I don't think ME were in business for long - probably the engines were too well-engineered and thus too expensive. 

[Trostle]

I think B Team Race had some of the neatest looking models in flying competition.  I was too young/inexperienced/no venue to participate in the event before the rulebook eliminated it.  I did fly some B-Proto ships which were sort of a spin-off from the B Team Race event - same wing area requirement, required a cowled engine, and at least some semblance of a canopy.  Timed from a standing start for 14 laps - 1 mile.

There was an effort about 15 years ago to resurrect the B Team Race event.  Basically same rules, limited to .29 cu in displacement, 125 sq in min area, 1 oz maximum tank, required shut offs.  Back in the day, some flew their models with .15's or .19's for better fuel economy (fewer pit stops) for the longer races.  Partly due to difficulty in starting engines hot.  With the newer engines, some really good .25's showed up with good results.  There were one or two unofficial events at the Nats, several events were held around the country, and there was going to be a B TR event at one VSC, but weather and time did not cooperate.  A lot of people were interested, but few airplanes ever showed up at these events.

I built one for this resurrected event with an OS 25 FSR reworked by George Aldrich.  Started easier hot than when it was cold.  Ran pretty good.  A Scrambler for Model Airplane News.

There is a book the chronicled the B Team Race event and has drawings of virtually every design published, and showed many that were not published.  (The book also has a short history of the full size Goodyear racers.)

Keith

[Brett Buck]

Not true, B team was the biggest racing event and the year they dropped it they had the biggest turn out at the nats ever. Bad move AMA

   I use the progression from B TR-> Rat -> Slow Rat as a hallmark example of what happens when you try to "simplify" events to "increase participation". Lots of people cared about B TR, far fewer ended up caring about Rat (and it quickly became unflyable aside from a few pilots), and what I saw all the stuff on the front of competitive Slow Rats, even I couldn't explain what it all did. This all in pursuit of "participation". The more you dumb an event down or the more restrictions you impose, the more certain it is that only a few experts will dominate it, and the more rapidly it will die.

    Brett

[Brett Buck]

There was an effort about 15 years ago to resurrect the B Team Race event.  Basically same rules, limited to .29 cu in displacement, 125 sq in min area, 1 oz maximum tank, required shut offs.  Back in the day, some flew their models with .15's or .19's for better fuel economy (fewer pit stops) for the longer races.  Partly due to difficulty in starting engines hot.  With the newer engines, some really good .25's showed up with good results.  There were one or two unofficial events at the Nats, several events were held around the country, and there was going to be a B TR event at one VSC, but weather and time did not cooperate.  A lot of people were interested, but few airplanes ever showed up at these events.

I built one for this resurrected event with an OS 25 FSR reworked by George Aldrich.  Started easier hot than when it was cold.  Ran pretty good.  A Scrambler for Model Airplane News.

   I tried to get the VSC B TR experiment renamed "Class B Simultaneous Sport Flying Exhibition for Gentlemen of a Certain Age" to try to hold down on the escalation. Bill Lee liked it!

    I thought it was unfortunate that the attempted NATs B TR revival (which seemed like a good idea to me, even though it was *Far* before my time) was scheduled to conflict with stunt. Several of us had the notion to build B TR models (and in my case, learn to fly them 2-3-up) but it conflicted with the stunt schedule.  

   B TR engines and restarts are certainly a solved issue at this point. I think the ST X29, which was exactly what you needed (given a sufficiently small venturi), was too late. It's possible that the ability to have rapid/instant pit stops would have swung the pendulum to higher speeds to the point it was also unflyable. One of the good things about hard-to-start-hot engines is that you had to minimize the pit stops for fear of sucking up too much time on the ground, so that held the speeds to something normal human beings could handle.

   There were several of us interested in a mostly-academic sense about flying FAI T/R but the buy-and-fly aspect was too off-putting.

   Brett

[Dennis Adamisin]

Almost certain I raced against Ross & that twin boomer oh so long ago! 

[Gordon Van Tighem]

Possible you did at our Nats at Centralia. I flew in from Calgary with planes in a cardboard box and my rat racer on the seat beside me.
I recal you and your Dad were there, but can't even remember all that I entered.
G

[Steve Helmick]

If the blue plane had been a "B-TR", the canopy would have been required to be transparent and have a pilot head of a specified size, in addition to the larger than apparent fuselage cross-section. But it also could have been simply an early attempt at a Rat Racer, before all the .40's came out and folks figured out that a 2 wheel LG wasn't the hot setup.  Steve 

[Gordon Van Tighem]

Modern Proto defined, looks like same dimensions but .21 instead of .29.

[M Spencer]

I fort it looked like a proto .

Early artical on B T/R in U S A in a pommy magazine , had them running qualifyers solo , for race seedings .

[Mike Keville]

'B' Team Race (originally named just 'Team Racing') was a 1950s event in the USA, mostly dominated by NJ's George Moir and his 'Rambler' design (I once launched some of his test flights)...and, in the Southern states, Miami's Sy Vos Gereau.  The models were sleek, beautiful, and awesomely fast...powered mostly with rear-rotor McCoy and Dooling .29s.  As time went on, the event was eventually "DUMBED-DOWN" to Rat Racing, which led to unrealistic and rather ugly models whose speeds soon approached 160 mph and were flown only Two-Up as a safety factor.

Another case of "dumbing-down" leading to the demise of a once popular event.

Fire away....I can take it.

[C.T. Schaefer]

At this point we are enjoying the nostalgia value of some great events. There was a hearty revival of B-TR in our area (NJ, PA) around 1980. There were a number of guys flying it. Lots of fun! I built 3 planes. Starting with a G-21RV. Then a Fox Mk4 .29 and finally an OS .25VF. The Fox was best. Not too fast at that point, around 100. Then it faded. Fast forward to 2003. My pal Brian and I were going to the Nats and TR was on the card. The west coast guys had changed the rules to a .28 which I didn't have so shoehorned a Nova Rossi .21SE into the Fox plane. Worked pretty good! I put a battery in the plane for restarts. After a wild and crazy race we ended up on top. Any of the 3 finalists could have won but we, quite literally, survived!
    Today, under the same rules, TR would be a high speed nightmare. Go .25?   Hmmmm.

[bob whitney]

 Don't blame Rat for the demise of BTR,it was already on the way out i flew BTR in the 54 KOI and won with a K&B23 ,had about 6 entry's .it had already died here in Fla ,i flew it about 4 times at the Nat's ,never with a big entry

when rat started here it took all day to run it off  ,as it progressed entry's went down until only two or three guys could hold on to them at 160 MPH

i believe the late Ken Smith tried to bring BTR back and as Keith said got permission to run it at a VSC in Tucson but Keith and i sat in the hotel watching it rain and that was that.

i got permission to run BTR at the Nat's as an unofficial event .we had a 100 mph speed limit the first couple of years but had fairly good entry's ,but there was grumblings about the 100 mph limit .i told the guys it was their event and asked what they wanted, the vote was no speed limit and within 3 years you needed a Webra 28 and had to run 115 for 35 laps to win and it went down hill to where it is no longer run for lack of entry's

i feel all C/L events but stunt have a life span .everyone gets intrested ,lots of entry's, then the good get better and the bottom guys drop out and entry's get smaller ,happened in good year, mouse 2, fox racing ,form 40 was started with the idea that the rat guys could enter, the did have a head start but the weight of the rats soon left them behind

headed to Brodaks to see how we can do in Fox stunt 35 Speed

[BillLee]

Bob, your description is right on. Only thing missing is the realization that stunt is the haven for those who have become too old and too decrepit to fly the more "athletic" events! 

[john e. holliday]

Bill, as I asked Melvin,  When's the last time you flew a competition stunt pattern?   Yes I have been on both ends of some racing planes.   But, I know I'm a better pit man than pilot.  I too wish they had kept the idea going that the late Ken Smith had.   Three up B Team Racing was a good spectator event as they were not that fast and looked like airplanes.  Still have a Redskin to finish up.

[Trostle]

Bill, as I asked Melvin,  When's the last time you flew a competition stunt pattern?  

Hi Doc,

I am not sure what the point of your question is.  Bill has flown stunt.  But what is a "competition stunt pattern"?  How is it different from a stunt pattern?

Now regarding racing, Bill is a competitive racer in most of the current events and has been competitive in most of the now defunct events (which are many) over many years.  And Bill was on our US F2C racing team in Australia.  Not only that, Bill has been a mainstay at many of our recent VSC's, always helping and usually doing pull test duties on one of the circles for the duration of VSC.  And Bill has been the Team Manager of the United States team to the World CL Championships many time.

So Doc, why the question?

Keith

[Howard Rush]

Bob, your description is right on. Only thing missing is the realization that stunt is the haven for those who have become too old and too decrepit to fly the more "athletic" events!

You'll get there someday, Sonny. 

[Howard Rush]

Furthermore,  I'll have you know that I've flown "B" team racing.

[BillLee]

You'll get there someday, Sonny. 

 

Check your driver's license, Howard! You're still a kid to me!

 

[john e. holliday]

Hi Doc,

I am not sure what the point of your question is.  Bill has flown stunt.  But what is a "competition stunt pattern"?  How is it different from a stunt pattern?

Now regarding racing, Bill is a competitive racer in most of the current events and has been competitive in most of the now defunct events (which are many) over many years.  And Bill was on our US F2C racing team in Australia.  Not only that, Bill has been a mainstay at many of our recent VSC's, always helping and usually doing pull test duties on one of the circles for the duration of VSC.  And Bill has been the Team Manager of the United States team to the World CL Championships many time.

So Doc, why the question?

Keith

Yes I've known Bill Lee for how many years.  First time I remember is the contests at the KCMo Swope Park site.   He has done a lot for control line I admit,  probably more than I have ever done.  But, it irks me when they modelers start flying stunt or scale because they are too old for racing.   Any way I hope Bill will not deck me the next time we meet.   In reality I don't believe I've ever seen Bill fly a plane, he is one great pit man too.