Author Topic: Old fliers (Read 3435 times)

peabody · « **on:** December 13, 2012, 06:21:01 AM »

I read the "Low Pullouts" thread with interest.......

I have had several basically honest guys that flew "in the day" mention that low pull outs were very regular back then....stories about doing a wingover and having the wheels hit to ground to "taxi" for a half lap.....insides regularly touching the wheels in EVERY loop, touching just a little bit of the tail repeatedly on outsides, etc.....

The last time I saw Bob Palmer, he had a tee shirt on that read "the older I get, the better I used to fly"....

My question is: are ANY of these tales true? If so, I hold that the pilots then must have been MUCH better than they are today....by miles! Same with airplanes....

Have fun!

EddyR · « **Reply #1 on:** December 13, 2012, 07:54:57 AM »

Yes it is true and we went through a lot of planes. Up until 15 years ago I was down scored in most contest for flying to low. Most of the time below two ft. Before I had my cataract surgery I made a lot of wheels on the ground wingovers. Since then it is hard to get below seven ft

I am from Binghamton NY and that is the way every one flew. I can not remember any one flying at six ft. I went to contest all over NY and PA and that was normal till about the late 1950's. I can still do it with a AAsr. I did the wheels on the ground wingover quite a few times when I was in the Tamps Bay Line Flyers where you are now. Ask Eric Did it one time with my USA/1
Ed

Tom Niebuhr · « **Reply #2 on:** December 13, 2012, 09:20:40 AM »

Absolutely true.
The stories about Red Reinhardt and Don Still are true, I wish that I had seen them.

By the early 60s when I started competing, for the most part this was no longer done in contests.

I had one airplane that had the rudder progressively shaved by intentionally low outside loops, but never during a contest.

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #3 on:** December 13, 2012, 01:14:12 PM »

UUUHHhhhhh...well personally I have a long history of being chastised for low pullouts...about 25 years ago I won a $10.00 bet for touching the rudder to the grass in three consecutive outside loops with a Magnum.
The saga continues today only now a lot of them are not intentional...must be old age...

I have personally witnessed reverse wingovers flown at 1 foot or less.

Randy Cuberly

peabody · « **Reply #4 on:** December 13, 2012, 03:22:18 PM »

Then we must be regressing all these years.....in both flying ability and airplane design....

Mike Lauerman · « **Reply #5 on:** December 13, 2012, 05:06:47 PM »

I recall a tale of a fellow that got so low while flying inverted he couldn't pull out because the vertical stabilizer was dragging on the asphalt!
Three laps like that, finally he ground so much off (right down to the turtledeck!) that he was able to inch the nose up just enough to gain sufficient altitude to wing-over and right the ship, running out of fuel and landing smoothly.

Testament to the phenomenum was the circle of balsa dust the rudder had left....

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #6 on:** December 13, 2012, 11:43:26 PM »

Quote from: peabody on December 13, 2012, 03:22:18 PM

Then we must be regressing all these years.....in both flying ability and airplane design....

I don't think anything is regressing...maybe just maturing a little and not into showing off as in the past.

Today in fact showing off is considered childish and simply not as accepted as it use to be...except for RJ Whitely of course. He does it so well no one would notice.

Just kidding Bob...

Randy Cuberly

bill mazzoni · « **Reply #7 on:** December 14, 2012, 10:20:04 AM »

The older I get the better I get at Inverted Touch and Go's !!

L0U CRANE · « **Reply #8 on:** December 14, 2012, 09:04:32 PM »

Quote from: Mike Lauerman on December 13, 2012, 05:06:47 PM

I recall a tale of a fellow that got so low while flying inverted he couldn't pull out because the vertical stabilizer was dragging on the asphalt!
Three laps like that, finally he ground so much off (right down to the turtledeck!) that he was able to inch the nose up just enough to gain sufficient altitude to wing-over and right the ship, running out of fuel and landing smoothly.

Testament to the phenomenum was the circle of balsa dust the rudder had left....

Mike,
I came across an old Air Trails, or Flying Models, or MAN some years ago, that had a cover with a photo of three Dallas flyers, one of whom was Johnny Clemens. Johnny was President of AMA for several terms, and wrote a wry, corny but humorous column in the last of the Air Trails successors before Model Aviation launched.

N E Hoo: asIr, he was the one who claimed to have flown a stunter inverted so low he COULD NOT pull out of it. After the inevitable - prop contacting ground - engine stop - he found that track of balsa dust around the circle, from his fin scraping the ground. ...Only, at the time, he said he couldn't raise the nose, because the fin kept the tail from going lower...

Ah, memories...

EddyR · « **Reply #9 on:** December 15, 2012, 02:27:27 PM »

That is like the stories about flying around a pole that is half way out the lines and then flying back

Steve Helmick · « **Reply #10 on:** December 15, 2012, 06:19:23 PM »

Quote from: Randy Cuberly on December 13, 2012, 11:43:26 PM

I don't think anything is regressing...maybe just maturing a little and not into showing off as in the past.

Today in fact showing off is considered childish and simply not as accepted as it use to be...except for RJ Whitely of course. He does it so well no one would notice.

Just kidding Bob...

Randy Cuberly

I even heard that RJ can fly either CW or CCW!!! Well, maybe not perfectly. Or for long periods...

I wasn't there (off doing other stuff), but it seems to me like some of this would be to "impress" either the competition or judges, who may or may not have been experienced at either judging or stunt flying (i.e., Navy pilots). Did anybody ever have a heart to heart talk with one of the Navy judges and find out why they were judging? Were they actually interested, or were they looking for something good to be put into their personnel file? I spoke about this with my brother...but more about the NCO's that were our Boy Scout Leaders and Little League Coaches. Less time at actual work, and an "attaboy" into their file was his opinion. If these Navy pilots were in any sort of "hot water" for a SNAFU, they might have been more inclined to "volunteer", is all I'm saying, and that also might make them more impressionable by a rule breakin' maverick showing what he could do that others apparently could not, when they actually knew what they were supposed to do and stuck to it.

Steve

EddyR · « **Reply #11 on:** December 16, 2012, 06:29:08 AM »

I didn't think of it till just now but anyone with a little practice could do all the things mentioned with a BySlob

Ed

john e. holliday · « **Reply #12 on:** December 16, 2012, 07:57:17 AM »

I know for a fact that Lew Woolard, alias Silver Fox can fly either direction. Seen him do it at VSC during a practice session.

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #13 on:** December 16, 2012, 03:41:42 PM »

It all started in Kanasas City's Swope Park back in the 40's after the war was over. I was there when the guy said, "Here, hold my beer and watch this."

Randy Powell · « **Reply #14 on:** December 16, 2012, 04:36:44 PM »

I've finally stopped doing that. For a long time, I was known as too low flier. I've tried to fix that.

Dave_Trible · « **Reply #15 on:** December 16, 2012, 04:38:55 PM »

Quote from: Jim Kraft on December 16, 2012, 03:41:42 PM

It all started in Kanasas City's Swope Park back in the 40's after the war was over. I was there when the guy said, "Here, hold my beer and watch this."

Yeah I was almost afraid to talk about it-that was my home field for my first ten years or so. We had flyers you wouldn't believe like Ray Reinschmitt, Tommy Cooper, Buster Kegeries , Jim Dunkin and Bill Wright of team race fame , Steve Johnston, Willard Adams, and many others but the beer flowed in great quantities. Some of these guys could easily wheels down on every maneuver bottom and not chip a prop even three sheets to the wind. Say what you will, these guys showed this kid how to fly.

Dave

Garf · « **Reply #16 on:** December 16, 2012, 06:52:58 PM »

I knocked the rudder off my Nobler today inverted and kept flying. Didn't even break the prop.

Dennis Adamisin · « **Reply #17 on:** December 16, 2012, 08:22:44 PM »

Back to Rich's original post - I grew up hearing the same kind of stories, in Detroit there was a guy named Walt Stephenson who use to do all the low flying stuff too, including dragging the rudder a full lap inverted and drawing a circle in the dirt of a ball diamond.

I am pretty sure JC Yates did not get the nickname "Madman" by flying the OTS pattern at 7' altitude. I think that "Stunt Flying" evolved to "Precision Aerobatics" with a set manuver sequence - probably to make some sense about HOW you rate flyer A to flyer B! That is probably about the time the LG & wheels started moving from "F1" (right behind the engine) to "F2" (just ahead of the wing) and also got a lot shorter.

I have been getting over-stocked in airplanes lately, maybe its time to get in touch with my "Madman" side???

or not..

Mike Keville · « **Reply #18 on:** December 16, 2012, 08:31:47 PM »

Well, I've been known to scrape the vertical fin and canopy along the asphalt during an Outside Square.....but it sure wasn't on purpose!

Jim Thomerson · « **Reply #19 on:** December 16, 2012, 09:18:12 PM »

I don't have the Aermodeller issue at hand, the one with Don Still and two Stukas on the cover, but it relates that during demonstration flights he repeatedly did wingovers to wheels on the tarmac and go around half a lap, then another wingover.

I once scraped the outside rudder on my Agile Arrow on the bottom of an outside square, with no other damage. I did not do it on purpose.

Yes, really good fliers will sometimes try to impress the judges with uniform low pullouts. I grade them down, just like pullouts too high.

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #20 on:** December 17, 2012, 12:03:23 AM »

Quote from: Jim Thomerson on December 16, 2012, 09:18:12 PM

I don't have the Aermodeller issue at hand, the one with Don Still and two Stukas on the cover, but it relates that during demonstration flights he repeatedly did wingovers to wheels on the tarmac and go around half a lap, then another wingover.

I once scraped the outside rudder on my Agile Arrow on the bottom of an outside square, with no other damage. I did not do it on purpose.

Yes, really good fliers will sometimes try to impress the judges with uniform low pullouts. I grade them down, just like pullouts too high.

I seriously doubt that any serious fliers try to impress jusges with "intentional" low pullouts today. They usually get penalized more than high pullouts, especially when the crowd gasps loudly...

Randy Cuberly

Jim Kraft · « **Reply #21 on:** December 17, 2012, 01:30:35 PM »

In the early days of R/C pattern it was the same way. The bottom of loops were on the deck, and so were rolls. When the "in the box" came out we had to fly much farther away with bigger planes to stay in the box on everything. I liked the old style best and it was a lot of fun.

peabody · « **Reply #22 on:** December 17, 2012, 01:38:49 PM »

There are a bunch of REALLY good fliers that read........and sometimes comment on this forum......National and World Champions. And folk that have designed award winning planes....

None have said "yeah....I could do that"........

I think Palmer's shirt said it all.

Luiz Carlos Franco · « **Reply #23 on:** December 17, 2012, 04:59:26 PM »

Gentlemen:
Here is the AEROMODELLER article about Don Still´s STUKA.
It states that the "wheels on ground" wingovers where done repeatedly at the World championship in Hungary. There has been also simultaneous flying with Bob Palmer!!
I certainly would have liked to witness that !!

Luiz

Mike Lauerman · « **Reply #24 on:** December 17, 2012, 06:24:30 PM »

Hi, Lou!

Yes, come to think of it, that was where that came from. (I got it mixed up with another 'wild tale', of which there have been a few!)

Johnny Clements was sure a man to know.

Trostle · « **Reply #25 on:** December 20, 2012, 12:23:55 PM »

Quote from: Jim Thomerson on December 16, 2012, 09:18:12 PM

I don't have the Aermodeller issue at hand, the one with Don Still and two Stukas on the cover, but it relates that during demonstration flights he repeatedly did wingovers to wheels on the tarmac and go around half a lap, then another wingover.

I

Here is the British Magazine, Model Aircraft, Nov 1960, that shows Don Still with the two Stuka's he took to the World Championships that year. The black one is like the one he had in Air Trails. The lighter colored one (which was white with shades of blue trim) was the one like published later in Aeromodeller and was the basis for the Ambroid kit.

Still had the highest single flight score of the competition, but placed 2nd based on the best of 2 of 3 flight total. The U.S, team placed 1st at this first FAI World CL Championships in this format. Don Still was 2nd. Bob Palmer was 3rd, and Steve Wooley was 4th.

Keith

Trostle · « **Reply #26 on:** December 20, 2012, 01:04:32 PM »

And here is the Jan 61 issue of Aeromodeller that had the construction article for the Stuka Stunt. This was the basis for the Ambroid kit. According to the article, this was the same as the 1950 model except it "has been changed only in detail and length of nose."

Keith
[/quote]

Bill Little · « **Reply #27 on:** December 20, 2012, 02:01:09 PM »

Quote from: peabody on December 17, 2012, 01:38:49 PM

(snip)
None have said "yeah....I could do that"........
(snip)
I think Palmer's shirt said it all.

Hi Rich,

When I was 13 I routinely did wingovers with pull outs where I rolled the wheels. I did not know about a reverse wingover yet. We tried to roll the wheels on inside loops as well. Top Flite nylon props were used. (and we often spent week nights repairing our Ringmasters, Shoestrings, and such)

Does that count?

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

Allen Brickhaus · « **Reply #28 on:** December 20, 2012, 02:10:51 PM »

St. Louis Lafayette Esquadrille club has their Ice-O-Lated contest on the last Sunday of February. The used to have a free style event. I used to do pretty well in this event with my Savoy and 40vf pipe with many maneuvers to include rolling on the tarmac with the wheels in contact with the surface for as much as a full circle.