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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: Matt Colan on August 04, 2013, 08:41:08 PM
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...you just never know when something potentially catastrophic can happen as this video shows. Good thing the guy flying escaped serious injury.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=T6ZGta2El_I
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I watched a guy flying a "helo" in a park one day . . . excuse me if I say my feeling was one of complete befuddlement. Flew nothing like a helicopter. It just jumped and buzzed around like a bee on meth. Sorry to any "helo" fans, but sure not my cup of tea.
Glad this guy escaped in good shape.
Brian
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And the guy runs in to make sure the helicopter is OK.
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There are some guys that fly helis competitively at one of our local fields, they are very aware they scare the heck out of us and ask if they can fly a sequence on the runway when there are just Pattern guys around. I always stand behind my car. The carbon blades are darn near 5 foot span and if something goes wrong during their whoop-dees I want something between me and that heli.
Chris...
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A number of years ago, AMA was all in a dither about 3D RC flying right up near the pilots, the concern being that any sort of glitch would cause the model to go out of control and cause serious damage.
The video show exactly this: the model takes a tail strike (at 15-16 seconds on the video) that disables the tail rotor and the model goes completely out of control and into the pilot and others nearby.
This occurred at AMA during the current helicopter portion of the NATs (now labeled IRCHA 2013). I wonder what AMA's reaction will/should be.
A helicopter pilot was killed near Houston a few years ago, decapitated.
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And the guy runs in to make sure the helicopter is OK.
Noticed that too.
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A helicopter pilot was killed near Houston a few years ago, decapitated.
That was at Tom Bass Park ..... he wasn't decapitated, I don't think ..... just severe wound to neck veins and arteries ..... irony was, he was an EMT learning to fly on a buddy box .... he bled out ......
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I don't think the guy ran in to see if the heli was ok. He ran in to pull the fuel line off and disable the heli.
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I admit I have been messing with Helis as of late. I find them to be pretty cool. Building them is half the fun. Repairing a crashed one, more of the same! But there is a definite risk factor involved with these things and flying them that close to you or spectators should be a big NO NO! I know these big 3d guys fly them like this all day but there should be a barrier line between the pilot and the machine. A marker of some sort to keep a safer distance when this stuff is being performed. Typically when one goes out of control that close to the ground it will be in the dirt within seconds so a safe area would help minimize pilot and caller contact. A 10 yard safe zone where the model has to stay out away from the pilot line and this would have never happened. I cant believe they dont already do that. That guy is lucky for sure! The impact is the head hitting his back. If that had been the tip of the carbon blades he would have been shredded to say the least.
Yes, they do not look like normal flying. That's because it's not. But then again neither is hovering a huge 1/4 scale Extra on the prop. But hey, to each his own. It's just like anything, once you start to understand what they are doing you can see the movements and maneuvers they are flying. I can remember for the life of me I couldn't make out the clover, until someone showed me what the flier was doing. I had to ask "what is that?" Now, I think it one of the all time coolest maneuvers in all of flying! I sure have trouble nailing but none the less it is awesome!
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That was at Tom Bass Park ..... he wasn't decapitated, I don't think ..... just severe wound to neck veins and arteries ..... irony was, he was an EMT learning to fly on a buddy box .... he bled out ......
Decapitated or severe wound to neck veins and arteries: all a question of degree. Still just as dead.
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A few years ago a young man was flying 3-D tricks in the R/C area at KidVenture at Oshkosh. I complained to the management about it just for this reason. The answer I got at first was "But it's electric." And I responded that the rotors were going near supersonic speed can kill you just as dead. Then I threw in a question about whether the "But it's electric" answer would hold up in court during a major law suit that could cripple the EAA, and he just stared at me. The helis never came back after that. I fly (if you want to call it that) a small electric heli and have a lot of respect for the guys who fly them well, but they set a REAL bad, unsafe example with this kind of crap. If they want to do this kind of extreme stuff, put them in a big cage. Not the pilot, the heli, then show me how good you are with it by keeping it off the walls!
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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My first and last helo "flight": An electric ARF thing. Got 3 ft. off the ground, and promptly smashed into my own parked car. Lucky the strike was on a tire, with no car damage.
Floyd
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One thing I do have to admit is the skill and focus those top 3D heli guys do have to know what the helicopter is doing during all those spins, tic-tocs and other maneuvers I don't know the names to. One of my friends at school is an excellent 3D pilot in both heli and airplane, and its incredible to watch him go out with his T-Rex 700 and rip up the skies with it. I dabble with RC heli's on the simulator, but that's about all ill do with them for me.
I have gotten really into 3D RC planes. I've been flying a CarbonZ Yak-54 electric and have beat the crap out of it. I am planning on buying a 1/4 scale airplane from Pilot-RC sometime soon when I'm back at college. This plane will be hovering, although I'm still not comfortable enough to put right on the deck inches above the ground. I'm more comfortable at about 5ft.
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At an airshow I went to, in July, there were two R/C helicopters performing.
- An electric one did an impressive 3D sequence. I can appreciate the amount of control and co-ordination, even if I'm not really into that style.
- The glow powered one did more conventional aerobatics, and crashed - well away from the crowd. The "pilot" got some fuel mist into his eyes from the chopper exhaust. The best he could do while momentarily blinded was direct it further to the other side of the runway.
... Has anyone ever got fuel remains in the eyes while flying Stunt? From overhead maneuvers or blown with the wind perhaps?
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... Has anyone ever got fuel remains in the eyes while flying Stunt? From overhead maneuvers or blown with the wind perhaps?
I got a drop when I was priming my new PA while on the bench breaking it in just a few days ago. Other than that, I haven't had anything hit my eye
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Everything always seems back to front whenever I see RC being flown. All the helicopters hurtling around the sky performing all sorts of aerobatics and all the aircraft drifting around the field hanging from their prop. I just don't get it...HB~>
Here's an example of what can happen if you get in the way of an errant chopper..
TTFN
John.
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Nasty...
:o :o :o
Marcus
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Everything always seems back to front whenever I see RC being flown. All the helicopters hurtling around the sky performing all sorts of aerobatics and all the aircraft drifting around the field hanging from their prop. I just don't get it...HB~>
Hanging on the prop and 3D with an airplane, to me at least, is the most fun there is to do with RC. It takes a lot of practice and a lot of thumb twitching to get it to do what you want.
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Everything always seems back to front whenever I see RC being flown. All the helicopters hurtling around the sky performing all sorts of aerobatics and all the aircraft drifting around the field hanging from their prop. I just don't get it...HB~>
Here's an example of what can happen if you get in the way of an errant chopper..
TTFN
John.
Wow, John, that picture is almost too gross to post. It hurts me just to look at it.
BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM
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Try prop hanging with a CL carrier plane sometime. Much easier with a Bi-Slob.
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Yes, that picture is pretty scary. I imagine he won't wanna fly heli's for a while.
Jim Hayes
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I know a guy that rode a 1:1 scale helicopter to the ground much like the video Matt posted. He won't get in one ever again. They lost tail rotor over the forest and the pilot stupidly tried to avoid crashing into the trees. They still crashed into the trees, which is what saved their hides, but it took a bit longer to accomplish. Gave them plenty of time to work up a serious adrenaline rush. #^ Steve
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Hi Matt,
I don't doubt the skill involved in the prop hanging thing, it just seems ironic that all the RC displays I seem to see helicopters are flying around like aircraft and aircraft are flying around like helicopters.
Quick question. Does the prop hanging thing use gyro's or is it all stick twiddling? I 1st flew RC helicopters back in the 70's (A Graupner Helibaby if I remember correctly). No gyro or anything other than the 4 channels I had at my disposal. I never quite mastered it and my flights were usually described as flying it all the way to the accident. HB~> Cost me a fortune in Rotor blades before I gave up and sold it to some unsuspecting punter... The modern solid state gyro's seem a bit like cheating to me but who am I to talk. I fly ECL so I guess I can at least see where those who think ECL is the work of the devil are coming from, Diluting the purity of the event and all that....
Hi Bill,
I can't remember where I got the image from, It was one of those I downloaded just because..... I seem to remember it was on a heli site just after carbon blades became all the rage and someone was trying to make a point that they could be dangerous if not treated with respect. He certainly got my attention.
TTFN
John.
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Hi John,
I'm not using any sort of gyros while hovering. I finally got the hang of hovering, so I'm going to bring it lower in altitude to increase the wow factor. I'm 98% sure that all of the top 3D guys don't use gyros either while hovering.
Here's a video from a few weeks ago at the RC field. I've since improved my flying immensely, with a lot of sim time and fooling around in the backyard. Gotta get another video of me flying that small electric plane. S?P
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADGuiykDJXc[/youtube]
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For some reason I cant see the link to the video, its just a white screen. ??
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Me either.
I tried hovering and sometimes I can get it. I have crashed more than one airplane trying... HB~>
Derek
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Try this. I guess posting a mobile Youtube link doesn't work.
[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADGuiykDJXc[/youtube]
Derek, the easiest plane to hover is an indoor foamy, they're great at 3D are relatively cheap.
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Ok that apparently doesn't want to work either.
Let's try it again.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ADGuiykDJXc
Edit: There we go :)
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Matt,
That looks awesome!!!
What TX do you have?
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Matt,
That looks awesome!!!
What TX do you have?
Hi Doug,
DX7S is what I'm using. It's a good user friendly transmitter.
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Hi Doug,
DX7S is what I'm using. It's a good user friendly transmitter.
That's what I use. Its so easy to use. I wish it were back lit though. Sure would make it alot easier in certain situations.
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That's what I use. Its so easy to use. I wish it were back lit though. Sure would make it alot easier in certain situations.
The DX8 is backlit. I know exactly what you mean about wanting it to be backlit. My roommate this year has a DX8 and the backlight is awesome!
Edit: heading to the RC field on Saturday. I'll try and get a decent video of me going balls to the wall with the little electric plane, LOL
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http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/09/05/man-killed-by-toy-helicopter_n_3875895.html?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl11%7Csec1_lnk2%26pLid%3D369566
Here is more fodder for the mill fresh and hot off the internet tonight. Another runaway "toy" helicopter with tragic results. Whether you think they are cool or not, I CAN NOT understand why anyone would want to stand anywhere NEAR one of these running at full song. Says he was trying to do a "trick" when it happened. Pictures with the story show the heli rotors with grass stains on the leading edges. When, where and with whom do the lawsuits start? Where do you put the blame, because someone is going to try. I get scared when I see someone flying one of the smallest electric choppers, and hover right at eye level in front of their face? n1 I'm not gonna say ban them, because I own some. You just have to say "COME ON PEOPLE!! WAKE UP AND THINK FOR A MINUTE BEFORE YOU DO SOMETHING STUPID!"
If the link doesn't work, try googling it. I don't know how to do the tiny url thing.
Type at you later,
Dan McEntee
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Something ominous to note: In the New York Times story about this incident ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/nyregion/remote-controlled-copter-fatally-strikes-pilot-at-park.html?hp&_r=0
... one of the first reactions was from a city council member who called for a moratorium on flying helicopters at this site.
I don't mean to downplay the tragedy, but it's an unfortunate fact that every time we have a serious accident, our flying sites immediately are in jeopardy.
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Something ominous to note: In the New York Times story about this incident ...
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/09/06/nyregion/remote-controlled-copter-fatally-strikes-pilot-at-park.html?hp&_r=0
... one of the first reactions was from a city council member who called for a moratorium on flying helicopters at this site.
I don't mean to downplay the tragedy, but it's an unfortunate fact that every time we have a serious accident, our flying sites immediately are in jeopardy.
That's what I really hate. This was a tragic accident, accidents happen on the interstate all the time, yet the government isn't shutting them down. It's a risk we all take whenever we play with these models.
Here is what this guy could do, he was incredibly good at his craft!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=aWHPLiRW0JU
Edit: I will stick with the RC planes and the Control-line planes. I'm starting to fly Giant Scale stuff, and have one in my room I'm getting ready to fly. I don't think I will ever own an RC helicopter, flying them on the simulator is good enough for me
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I know the kid and family. He wen to grammar school with my children. He was an accomplished pilot and has been flying helicopters since he was in grade school. I don't know many details yet but obviously something went terribly wrong. I know his video's are all over You Tube. Rest in peace Roman Pirozek!!!
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I am very sorry for Roman and his family, but this is an accident that didn't have to happen. I don't care how good he was, or if he was sponsored by the factory or not, but putting himself and any spectators in harms way in inexcusable, when it comes to operating a device such as this that has been proven to be not only dangerous, but lethal. It's like holding your lawnmower up over your head to see how the blade is turning while it's running full throttle. I just can't fathom how someone would let themselves or someone else get that close to something that is spinning that fast and you know in advance what the consequences of an accident will be. I don't accept the statement that "something went wrong." If he was not so close to it, it may have just crashed harmlessly into the grass. Some may equate it with motor racing of any kind, but it's not the same in my opinion. I've flown R/C helis, and I've participated in several different forms of racing, and the level of performance that helis have reached put them well beyond the ragged edge of being in control. I think the AMA will and should look long and hard look and set standards for how and where certain types of helis are operated, just like they do jet turbine engines. It's kind of like, believe it or not, racing R/C sailplanes in cross country distance competition. I participated in that also, and it is not done anymore, because the technology of the machines involved far exceed the safety parameters needed to operate them. The sailplanes just got too fast to safely operate from the back of a moving vehicle. This 3-D flying is neat, but I think unless there is a barrier of some kind between the machine, the pilot and any spectators, or a specific safe distance determined for separation, it is just too risky to be around something so lethal and unpredictable. You guys that fly them out there, take a good hard look at what you are doing and how and where you do it. I hate that this kind of thing happens, and I hate what his family is going through right now, but I also hate that this is going to put the entire hobby of model aviation under a microscope again, and it didn't have to happen.
Deepest Sympathies to His Family,
Dan McEntee
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I have been following it some on the Heli forums. A couple of guys pretty high up the food chain are calling for change. For example in competition there would be a height restriction, a hard deck so to speak, and a distance restriction. If you break the barriers it is a massive deduction and or disqualification if it is done repeatedly. This top down change would help as people would learn and practice their routines at the distance restrictions. After a while close in flying would feel very unsafe and avoided. As it stands now there are no restrictions on it. THERE SHOULD BE!! I can see why people do it close to them selves. It's alot easier to see the model. Out away from you its very difficult to see it. So as one progresses you fly closer to you. The large 3D aerobatic planes should have some restrictions as well. The pilots should not be on the runway touching or holding their models while in a hover. A mistake or failure and a 4 cylinder 250cc engine is in your face.
As far as under the microscope. I think it is a good thing. The AMA is the governing body and hopefully they will review and make the needed changes to help prevent accidents like this one.
The report is misleading when it says toy. Just like our planes a 700 size helicopter is not toy, hell a 130 size isnt a toy. The coaxial ones you get at the mall now those are toys. I have a Blade Nano CPX, 29 grams without the battery. It's a tiny little thing and I can fly it inverted in my living room. I have hit myslef with it and it stings. The rotor speed to be able to do the things displayed in this video is insanely fast. These things are so powerful. They chain two 6s batteries together and run them out in 5 minutes. There has to be distance restrictions put in place. If I ran a contest or a fly in you can bet there would be markers everywhere. They would have to abide the rules just like the plane guys do. Stand behind the station and keep out over or across the runway at ALL times.
Its a tragedy and this guy was an accomplished pilot and his dad is too. He was also the president of their club. His dad was present at the time of his death, according to the Washington Post.
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One of the RC fields I go to down in Florida has a red line that you cannot cross (Deland RC). If you do you will get a warning and if you pass it again, you will be asked to leave.
I just got back from flying my Crack Laser, a fairly small 32" EPP 3D Foamie. I was hovering it right in front of me and at least for me, I didn't feel very comfortable with it being right in front of me. I moved the plane over and continued hovering it off to my side, that way if for some reason I lost orientation, the plane would blow away from me, not towards me. One of my friends Jim who is big into the 3D heli stuff, flies a lot of his maneuvers off to the side of him rather than right in his face.
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It's sad that it takes a death to propose common sense safety rules that should have been in the rule book all along.
Thing is, you can't regulate practice or Sport flying at sites everywhere in the US. Too many park flyers/ non-club members.
This is a tragic accident. I hope something positive comes of it.
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I agree that the AMA needs to step up and put some safety regulations in place. We've seen accidents with 1:1 aircraft at airshows in years past that have killed spectators. It shouldn't cost someone their life before someone does a basic risk assessment and applies some safety rules.
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In my humble opinion, we have left the arena where RC can be praised for being more "realistic" than FF or CL.
Can you imagine being aboard either the fixed- or rotary-wing aircraft in these clips? What 'g' and in what directions, and what transition loads would you have to survive?
Doing it simply because it is (barely) possible seems a lame excuse. Those not as adept as 'the few' will be tempted to try it. And, even the 'few' have disastrous accidents...
We fly MODEL aircraft! Not people-carrying aircraft! Life is life; death is death.
Sure,"realism" is a fiction, but to inspire the incapable to risk their own - and worse, other's - lives is not a survival trait for our hobby.
Very troubled. ...by the celebration of these survived, and not survived, flying activities. Worse, the few who play with danger, without the skills that MIGHT reduce the hazard include those who would threaten our entire hobby by imitating surveillance and attack "remotely piloted aircraft."
I don't appreciate that... and I'd guess neither does the FAA...
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It's sad that it takes a death to propose common sense safety rules that should have been in the rule book all along.
Thing is, you can't regulate practice or Sport flying at sites everywhere in the US. Too many park flyers/ non-club members.
This is a tragic accident. I hope something positive comes of it.
Park flyers and foamies are not going to kill anyone. They are gonna barely hurt if you get hit. Meanwhile I still see people starting 65-75 piped CL motors with their fingers with a coupler or glove on. A strong kick back and the glove or coupler isnt gonna block crap.
You are right you cant regulate practice BUT if there are proper regulations in place for those who compete, those who really fly this insane stuff, it will be self policed. Example. I have been flying with a thong on my handle for years now and when I fly without one, a trainer where I will be letting the trainee get the handle once they are confident, it feels very wrong. I will not start a motor, even the 20fp and 25la without using a chicken stick.
If the top guys are forced to fly at a distance and height requirement then the practice will done so as well and it will police itself. Those who come behind wont know any other way.
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The TV is on in the background here and "Inside Edition" just aired a spot dramatizing the fatal New York incident.
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We used to have a young man come in and put on a "demonstration" at our R/C club's fun fly events every summer. He was an amazing 3D heli pilot and the things he was doing were beyond anything that I could ever imagine. But to be honest, from the moment he started his routine until the second he set the heli down on the ground, I was scared to death. The noises that that heli was making, you just knew that he was putting an enormous amount of stress on those rotors. And this was a pretty big heli. The pits were full of spectators, adults, children, and I kept thinking "what if something were to go wrong"? True, he kept it away from the crowd, but his maneuvers were so fast and so violent, all it would have taken would have been one little mistake on his part, or one mechanical or electrical glitch, and it could have had disastrous results.
I am so sorry for this young man from NY and his family, no one ever wants to see anyone get hurt flying one of our toys. I can only hope that something good comes from it, maybe an awareness that things can go wrong, even to the best, most experienced pilots. No reason for a knee jerk, "stop all 3D heli flying" reaction, just a good thought process to make it safer.