News:



  • June 29, 2025, 05:05:00 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Author Topic: Number of Judges  (Read 4624 times)

Offline peabody

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2866
Number of Judges
« on: November 22, 2007, 07:09:25 AM »
We had a pow-wow at the GSCB Swap meet....
It was mentioned that we keep promoting Advanced flyers to Expert and that the Expert Ranks are filling up.....this is fine, except that we seem to be running out of judges for Expert (especially)....

I saw somewhere that only one judge was used......any thoughts on this? I am a believer that anyone that enters a contest is entitled to the BEST judges that can be assembled, regardless of skill class (I strongly oppose the Nats "grading and seeding" judges so that those deemed less worthy are lumped to judge Advanced).

What do you guys think about using one judge?

Thanks

edit...spelling...

Online Paul Smith

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 6127
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2007, 07:37:52 AM »
If you can only find one, then one it is.

The old entry forms for the AMA Nats included verbage to the effect that contestants could be drafted to help judge.  Maybe that's what you need.

If you promoted too many guys to Expert, maybe that program could be tweeked.  As in, the Top 10 guys who show up are in Expert (assuming you based this on data), and the rest get fly Advanced.

Paul Smith

Offline Jim Oliver

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1414
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2007, 08:34:41 AM »
Maybe it's time for a Master class???

Cheers,
Jim
Jim Oliver
AMA 18475

Offline peabody

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2866
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #3 on: November 22, 2007, 09:26:23 AM »
Jim...
I have long advocated a Master Class...under my proposal, those that qualify for Master would be:

1) Anyone flying for the Walker Cup in Open Class for the last ten years.
2) Anyone qualifying as a US FAI Team member in the last ten years....

This would be a pretty "compact" list....

I would add the runner up in Open at the Nats (as well the winner)...this would populate the class....

Just my thoughts

Offline john e. holliday

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22981
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #4 on: November 22, 2007, 07:01:41 PM »
Then what happens when the Master Class is filled up?  Now would the Master Class be required to FAI rules?  Now Richard why don't you volunteer to take over getting a judging core that every one would be happy with.  As you should well know by now there is no Expert Class at the NATS.  Have fun,  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline PatRobinson

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Commander
  • *
  • Posts: 385
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2007, 10:26:20 AM »
Hi Peabody,

I think all clubs face the finding judges issue at some point.
I am a member of Metrolina Control Line Society in North Carolina and here are some things we do at our contests.

We have 2 day meets so some guys in the club will ,for example,  fly classic, profile or old time on Saturday and then judge expert or advanced on Sunday. This gives them a chance to both participate and help out during the weekend.

We have 2 contests a year and some members choose to help out in one contest and participate in the other contest.

Some of our members recognize that judge training and judging help to improve the flyers awareness which helps him see his own errors better which will help him improve his own flying. So perhaps some of these flyers moving up from advanced could benefit from spending some time judging at a given contest or two during the year and then fly at other contests.

These and other ideas are about increasing the number of available "warm bodies" and if you have good judge training then your list of "available good judges" should hopefully reduce your judge problems.

Now, to your primary question.
Before my club MCLS was even a thought in anyones mind, the Winston Salem club was dominated by combat guys and they had combat only contests and they asked me to run stunt for them. They provided me with a tabulator but beyond that I was "The Lone Ranger" who did it all.
There would have been no stunt between Virginia and Georgia if I didn't do it and so I did it for years. If the one judge is perceived by the competitors as unbiased, objective and competent then they will return to to a one judge per-circle contest every year. So, yes a one judge per-circle contest can work but it is demanding on the judge and is far from ideal.  I somehow avoided getting "burned-out" but I am not sure how.

Peabody, you are a member of a great and well established club and it is hard for me to believe that if you approached your members with some of the "work-sharing" ideas like I listed above that you couldn't come up enough solid judges to meet your needs. That may be easy for me to say down here in Carolina but I believe that your club has more members than mine so I would hope the job would be easier. Sometimes, we even, have "ex-club members" and "out-of-town" club members volunteer to help judge some events. We typically have 3 paved circles going at the same time and a grass circle so we need at least 8 judges so the "outside help" is very welcome.

I will freely admit that I don't know your clubs circumstances, so the best I can do, is offer advice on what is working in our club in the hope it will be of some help you guys.   I hope it helps.

                                                           Pat Robinson

Offline peabody

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2866
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #6 on: November 23, 2007, 11:36:46 AM »
Hi Pat....
We try to spread the work, but, like most organizations, only a few volunteer to do the work for the masses...

The idea of a single judge was pretty well received...when I look at facts, a biased judge in any way (even one that has scores that escalate as the day wears on) influences a contest outcome in a big way.

The GSCB is either burying members or sending them south or west of late....


Offline Rudy Taube

  • Ret Flyboy
  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 974
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #7 on: November 23, 2007, 05:22:37 PM »
Hi Pat,

Thanks for your suggestions. We have good luck with similar procedures, but it still is a struggle at many CL contests.

Warning: EDITORIAL ..... Long Post. Read at your own risk.  Z@@ZZZ

I know it is in poor taste to mention the "Dark Arts" on these CL forums, (I apologize in advance if this post offends any CL flyer's, this is not my intent. I just think we may be able to learn from others sometimes?), but this problem also exists in the two events that are very similar to our CLPA. In both pattern, and IMAC it has become common to require entrants to be a judge. Participants in these two areas long ago realized that this was a fair way to spread the work load at a contest.

Because pilots know that they can, and will be recruited to be a judge, they usually volunteer in advance so the CD can make up the judging/flying matrix a week or more before the contest. This makes it much easier on everyone and prevents, or at least delays, burnout. We usually have a space on the clubs web site where one can volunteer for a help position: line boss, judge, etc. Or at least have a line on the preregistration mail in form for this purpose. We very often get more volunteers than we need, which gives us valuable backups. We have done this in IMAC for more than 10 years with great success.

Another area that has worked well is to bring spouses into the judging pool. There are several that travel to most contests in an area. These spouses are usually talented, bright people who are glad to help, "IF" it is made clear to everyone that they will NEVER be chastised, or attacked for their judgements. They usually start out as scribes, then attend a judging school, then start judging. One spouse became such a good judge I appointed her to be the chief judge at the IMAC SW Championships. She did an outstanding job. 

Another part of the solution is more judging clinics. Pat and Mr P both mentioned how a pilot (or coach?) can improve their own scores by judging others. A clinic is one of the best ways to train judges and make better pilots. In IMAC we have formal 2 day judging clinics in almost every region at least once a year, plus informal clinics in each region. The combination of classroom teaching with AV aids and actual judging critiques at the field clears up many judging misunderstandings, and makes everyone a better informed judge.

We are very fortunate here in the SW to have Keith Trostle who has been very generous with his time. Keith shares his vast CLPA knowledge with us by putting on an excellent CLPA judging seminar every year here in SoCal, and one in AZ. His seminars are well attended and enjoyed by all. We all walk away knowing more about the art of judging, and always have a better understanding of the rules.

I know many PAMPA reps work hard to have judging seminars in their regions, and I hope we can all expand on this effort. And maybe we could try to recruit some of the spouses and new/retread pilots to come to these seminars.

PRELUDE: Before I propose this idea I want to say that, as a CD, I am very aware that we have to be careful NOT to hold up the start of a contest. ...... At the CA state champs I was fortunate enough to be a judge when Brett Buck was the Chief Judge. This meant that I was part of the judges "warm up" flight evaluation that most contests have. This is an EXCELLENT opportunity to learn from an experienced judge/pilot at every contest. In this case from a world class pilot/judge! :-) ..... But at every contest the chief judge is almost always someone we can all learn from. I feel we may be missing an opportunity here?

PROPOSEAL:  IF the flying field has enough room, maybe we should have everyone watch this warm up flight and have everyone LISTEN to the chief judge's critique of the flight, and hear the scores  from each judge and any comments made by the judges. This would be an excellent way for the pilots to find out what the judges for that day are looking for. IMHO: This should not be a secret meeting. This could be like a mini judges training session at every contest for every pilot. ....... BUT, it is IMPARITIVE that NO pilots, other than the judges for that day, be allowed to say a word, NOT a peep!!!! during this review period. A peep would warrent severe punishments for the peepee'; NO lunch, must fly with handle upside down, fly with headsets on playing loud rap music, etc. etc.! ;-) ..... There may be some good reason we do not do this, but I can't think of one? (other than the great difficulty in keeping CLPA pilots QUIET !  LL~ )

The last proposal: AV training aide. Since we do the same pattern EVERY year I am surprised that PAMPA does not have a training DVD that could be available to every member for a reasonable cost of $10 to $20 or $?. (When we did one for IMAC many years ago, the AMA made the copies for us at an extreemly low cost so we could almost give them away.)     
     We have several areas in the USA that have a concentration of World class CLPA pilots (CA/AZ,  NW, FL, etc). Maybe a group of experts from one or more of these areas could produce a quality DVD for us. With our modern digital equipment, I would think it could even be a collaborative DVD using experts from different areas? I learned a lot by just watching some of Windy's DVDs of him and others flying. With a critique by several World class pilots added to the flights, and some less than ideal flights used too, we could all learn. If no one else does one this winter, I plan on filming Keith's next seminar.  ..... Or is this something that is already available, but I don't know about it?

One last comment: I was shocked to see a pilot heatedly make comments to a judge after seeing his scores at a contest. I was told that this is not uncommon at CLPA contests, and I saw it happen more than once. This is unheard of in IMAC. Any pilot saying anything to a judge other than "thank you, etc" is immediately banished from the contest. The ONLY person he can talk to is the CD. Then, if the CD thinks it is warranted the CD talks with the Chief judge to come to a resolution of the problem. This rule is always announced during the pilots meeting and it is understood by everyone. There is nothing that will kill your judging pool faster than abuse or questioning from a pilot to a judge.

On a more positive note, I was very impressed with the quality and good sportsmanship shown by all the judges I had here in the SW CLPA contests. .... Thanks judges, we all appreciate your efforts. :-)

Regards,  H^^
« Last Edit: November 23, 2007, 08:28:17 PM by Rudy Taube »
Rudy
AMA 1667

Offline Rudy Taube

  • Ret Flyboy
  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 974
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #8 on: November 23, 2007, 09:03:31 PM »
Hi Ty,

Sadly, the problems you bring up do exist. Fortunately, my experience out here is that they are the rare exception. But the fact that they still happen somewhere makes it even more imperative that we have more judging seminars. In Kieth's seminars he always covers some of the problems you mentioned, and stresses how important it is to avoid them as a judge and or as a CD. Nothing spoils a contest more than the perception of biased judges, and/or rules being ignored. Well, maybe poor WX spoils a contest even more??  HB~>

I am also surprised that we don't use more scribes in CLPA. I know the judges have a lot of time between maneuvers to mark scores in CLPA, and may not really need scribes, but being a scribe to a good judge is an excellent way to become a better pilot AND also learn to be a good judge yourself. Maybe we should consider assigning scribes to the experienced judges at a contest as a training device? I know that when I 1st started flying pattern and IMAC 25 years ago, I tried to scribe as often as I could. I think I learned as much there as I did practicing.  y1

I hope 2008 brings you fair judges and high scores!  H^^
Rudy
AMA 1667

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2007, 07:17:11 AM »

I saw somewhere that only one judge was used......any thoughts on this? I am a believer that anyone that enters a contest is entitled to the BEST judges that can be assembled, regardless of skill class (I strongly oppose the Nats "grading and seeding" judges so that those deemed less worthy are lumped to judge Advanced).


I heard Paul Walker is eliminating these practices at the Nats.  "Seeding pilots" and "graduating judges" in their current forms are no longer going to be used.

If this is true, Hallelujah.  Thank you Paul.

If I had a complaint about the Nationals, these practices were the complaint.  If these go away, I'd say that this would be a major leap forward (for me at least).

I guess Peabody is not an idiot either, and somebody must agree with him, because I believe eliminating these practices was one of Rich's main focuses for the last 10 years or so...
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline phil c

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2007, 02:05:09 PM »
The last little meet we had we used the flyers as judges.  Three judges for each flight, one flyer rotated in, one rotated out after every flight.  If we would have had more entries we would have used five judges the same way.  Seemed to work at least as well as trying to draft two guys for the day to judge everybody else.  As a bonus, it gave all the flyers a good taste of what judging is like and what the maneuvers look like from outside, although I am sure there was some talking among the judges(helping the newbies) that the rulebook probably frowns on.
phil Cartier

Offline Randy Powell

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10476
  • TreeTop Flyer
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #11 on: November 24, 2007, 02:12:59 PM »
Note on Master Class:

I'd be more inclined to do it like the rest of the PAMPA classes. If you have scored above 550 in say, 3 contests in a year, on you go to Master Class. Sort of like moving from Advanced to Expert when you score consistently about 500. I realized the scores vary from place to place, but I can't think of a more fair system. I don't think using the Nats or TT as a measuring stick would work since a lot of very good flyers can't make the Nats or TT.
Member in good standing of P.I.S.T
(Politically Incorrect Stunt Team)
AMA 67711
 Randy Powell

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #12 on: November 25, 2007, 05:40:19 AM »
The last little meet we had we used the flyers as judges.  Three judges for each flight, one flyer rotated in, one rotated out after every flight.  If we would have had more entries we would have used five judges the same way.  Seemed to work at least as well as trying to draft two guys for the day to judge everybody else.  As a bonus, it gave all the flyers a good taste of what judging is like and what the maneuvers look like from outside, although I am sure there was some talking among the judges(helping the newbies) that the rulebook probably frowns on.

That was always the goal of "all pilots judge", to get fliers in there and let them get their hands dirty.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Steve Helmick

  • 24 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10265
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #13 on: November 25, 2007, 03:06:50 PM »
I kinda like the idea of rotating the fliers through the judging corps, for some reason. I guess if you have no other options, that'd be my choice over a single judge. We always use two judges;  never have I seen us use three.

In our local contests, we try to get folks to commit to judging before the contest. Sometimes, they just wander into harm's way. Other times, the CD/ED gets on the bullhorn and says we need another judge for some event, and folks are falling all over eachother getting in line. I don't think we have a big problem, here in the PNW.

I have found, however, that I have a mental/physical limit of how many flights I can judge competently. It depends a lot on how well I slept the night before.  I try to get to the gym two or three times a week, and have ramped up my motel quality for out of town contests. Both help a lot, tho price or motel brand doesn't guarantee much of anything.   D>K Steve
"The United States has become a place where professional athletes and entertainers are mistaken for people of importance." - Robert Heinlein

In 1944 18-20 year old's stormed beaches, and parachuted behind enemy lines to almost certain death.  In 2015 18-20 year old's need safe zones so people don't hurt their feelings.

Offline Dick Byron

  • Vendor
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Captain
  • ***
  • Posts: 525
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #14 on: November 25, 2007, 04:45:47 PM »
It only took 31 years. Keith knows what I am speaking of. Ping pong balls, seeding etc. Anyone that has the back issues of stunt news 1976 thru 1984 will know of what I speak.

Offline peabody

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2866
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #15 on: November 25, 2007, 04:49:27 PM »
I am not a fan of having all flyers judge.....flyers tend to have the attention spans of gerbils....nor am I a fan of a "judging corps"....I like to judge, learn a lot while judging and am not awful at it (I'm told).

I generally try to line judges up prior to the event.....but the best laid plans frequently become Fox 35s.......

The only time that I have resorted to using one judge so far was this fall, and he judged only three flyers......no complaints.....

The CD meeting had CDs from several (6?) clubs present and none protested when one judge was suggested.




edit....spelling
« Last Edit: November 25, 2007, 05:42:32 PM by peabody »

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #16 on: November 25, 2007, 05:35:47 PM »
I am not a fan of having all flyers judge.....flyers tend to h the attention spans of gerbils....

You need to get some new pilots to hang around...
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Chris McMillin

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1917
  • AMA 32529
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #17 on: November 25, 2007, 05:51:17 PM »
Hi Pat....
We try to spread the work, but, like most organizations, only a few volunteer to do the work for the masses...

The idea of a single judge was pretty well received...when I look at facts, a biased judge in any way (even one that has scores that escalate as the day wears on) influences a contest outcome in a big way.

The GSCB is either burying members or sending them south or west of late....




Promote some Advanced guys to judge Expert. They'll do it. Hand them a clipboard and a stop watch. Tell them to step up to the plate and support the rest of the volunteers that put on the Advanced event that they signed up to fly.
What, right coast flyers can't judge? Too timid in their personalities?

Come on, this whole thread is a ruse to promote some aganda of yours, right Rich?!

Chris...
Chris...

Offline peabody

  • 23 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2866
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #18 on: November 25, 2007, 06:10:04 PM »
Chris....did you read the first post?

The initial question was asked to feel about how folks feel about a single judge........ it was based upon a posting of results of a left coast event where only one guy appeared to have judged. I just wondered how folks felt about that.....


Offline Trostle

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3392
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #19 on: November 25, 2007, 07:40:11 PM »
One of the topics discussed on this thread, if I understand it correctly, is that fliers rotate as judges at a contest they are flying in. 

Does this mean that Expert fliers are going to judge other Expert fliers?  Or does this mean that Advanced fliers are going to be asked to judge Expert fliers and vice-versa.  Surely, the intent is that Expert competitors at a contest are NOT going to judge other Expert competitors at that contest.  Talk about conflict of interest, no matter how honest each individual competitor/judge may try to be.  Even if there is no irregularities, the opportunity for improprieties abound.  In the business that I used to be in, any apparent conflict of interest was as grievous as an actual conflict of interest.

Keith Trostle

Offline L0U CRANE

  • AMA Member
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1076
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2007, 09:15:10 PM »
To Post #0, and many others...

1) IF possible, I'd rather see more than one judge for ALL flights in EACH CLPA event offered.

2) I'd be MUCH more comfortable with the SAME judges for all fliers in EACH event, than with a merry-go-round rotation of whoever is "up next." At the NATS, for example, fliers fly before one set of judges on the first day, then the other the next. All fliers fly before all the judges at the first level of the elimination ladder, IOW. Switching in new judges half-way through a round means that the standards and criteria of the judges 'swapped' is an unknown, and likely to be biased against some of the fliers... NOT good!

3) If only one judge is available for an event, it would be polite to poll the entrants to see if that is acceptable. If an overwhelming majority find it UNacceptable, do something. Find another good judge (or two), or cancel the event and refund the entry fees.

4) People flying an event should not judge others flying the same event! It goes against my para 2) above, for one thing, and raises suspicions of conflict of interest, for another. Judging 'out of Class' should be acceptable, given that the judges meet the ED/CD standards of competence to judge the event they get.

5) Using 'fliers-primarily' to judge brings in the factor that these guys are used to seeing the pattern from the handle, more than they are from the judging position, some 15' to 20' outside the upwind point... Training helps! So does time as recorder (Scribe?) for experienced judges... Without these efforts, what indication do we have that a draftee judge knows Jack-S**t about what we want of him/her?

Judges are valuable; good judges are a true treasure! Judges are not appreciated as they should be... We have a set of events in which success is determined by the scores assigned by the judges. All the boasting or carping - ignoring the hard numbers - is meaningless. Over the past almost 35 years we've made great progress in getting an improved level of flying quality - AND in judging quality and consistency around the entire nation. It still needs some tweaking - may that be forever the case - but it is so much better than it was in 1973 that we SHOULD be thinking positively how to bring it ever closer to an abstract ideal of perfection.

IM(not so )HO... :)
\BEST\LOU

Offline Chris McMillin

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1917
  • AMA 32529
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2007, 10:31:18 PM »
Chris....did you read the first post?

The initial question was asked to feel about how folks feel about a single judge........ it was based upon a posting of results of a left coast event where only one guy appeared to have judged. I just wondered how folks felt about that.....




It says "somewhere" in the first post, Rich.

I don't care if there is one judge. But, the CD should find a guy that is flying in another class so that there is a second judge.

Where did you read this? I find some of the contest reports so spotty and filled with typos and other errors that it might be they didn't have the name of the second, or third judge. Something to consider.

I really don't think there is a big percentage of contests held where the one judge event happens.

Running another class like the "Master's Class" is up to the CD and local contests can advertise a new event. If that is what you want, go for it. No need for AMA rule changes. Just think, it's as easy as dropping appearance points.

BTW, I skipped all of the Nationals talk on this thread as you were making a decidedly local contest type of question on your initial post. I am refering to your first post on this thread. No talk of West Coast in view on my monitor. You could be confused by my quoting a later post of yours.

Chris...

 

Offline Rudy Taube

  • Ret Flyboy
  • 2018 Supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 974
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #22 on: November 26, 2007, 12:05:38 AM »
Guys, I never thought the day would come when I would say this, but this may be that rare case when Mr. P is innocent?  LL~

Here is the quote from Phil C that seems to have caused some confusion:

"The last little meet we had we used the flyers as judges.  Three judges for each flight, one flyer rotated in, one rotated out after every flight.  If we would have had more entries we would have used five judges the same way.  Seemed to work at least as well as trying to draft two guys for the day to judge everybody else.  As a bonus, it gave all the flyers a good taste of what judging is like and what the maneuvers look like from outside, although I am sure there was some talking among the judges(helping the newbies) that the rulebook probably frowns on.
 
 Report to moderator    Logged 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
phil Cartier "

Phil stated that this was done at a "little" contest. I don't think he ever intended it to be some sort of proposal for a way to do our official CLPA PAMPA judging??? I think he threw it out there as FFT for small local contests. In the context that he wrote it, I think it is an interesting idea that could be used as a good learning tool at a small local contest.

RE ONE JUDGE: if we do not worry about where this did or did not happen, it is still an interesting question to discuss. We propably all agree that the more judges we have viewing a flight the better. But this is in an ideal world, not the world that many small contests operate in. The other obvious factor is "who" is this ONE judge? If it is Keith Trostle, Bret Buck, Howard Rush, Bob Hunt, or a trusted local expert, etc. then I would have no problems. If it was Joe Bellcrank, I might be worried. ;-) IMHO: I think more local judge training is the real ans. to the judge problem. When people are trained for this demanding task I think they will be more willing to volunteer at contests.

I'm not sure where the "judging your competitor" came into this. Phil's post was not clear on this, but he sure did not say this is what happened? But if it did happen this way and it is done at a "small local" contest, and everyone agrees to do it, then it might be an interesting experiment in human relations, and a true test of a CLPA pilots integrity?

As someone here said, "we have improved a lot over the years" but we still can continue to improve, with more training. I hope that more pilots come to realize that they have an obligation to their fellow pilots to pitch in and help carry their fair share of the work load.  y1

Regards,  H^^
« Last Edit: November 26, 2007, 01:46:48 AM by Rudy Taube »
Rudy
AMA 1667

Offline Howard Rush

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 7970
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2007, 12:44:34 AM »
"The initial question was asked to feel about how folks feel about a single judge........ it was based upon a posting of results of a left coast event where only one guy appeared to have judged. "

A one-eyed judge to boot, if it's the one I'm thinking of.  He's a good judge, though. 
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #24 on: November 26, 2007, 11:05:39 AM »
Talk about conflict of interest, no matter how honest each individual competitor/judge may try to be.  Even if there is no irregularities, the opportunity for improprieties abound.  In the business that I used to be in, any apparent conflict of interest was as grievous as an actual conflict of interest.

That is the most succinct description I have ever read of why we should go back to Navy type judging.

Or, at least, why judges should not be judging their friends, no matter how honest they are.

Well said Keith.

From what I can see especially at the local level, there is a direct correlation between who the judges pal around with (or shall we say, "worship") and the winners.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.  the more the CD works to bring in "neutral" judges the more this effect diminishes.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Chris McMillin

  • 22 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 1917
  • AMA 32529
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #25 on: November 26, 2007, 02:38:24 PM »
That is the most succinct description I have ever read of why we should go back to Navy type judging.

Or, at least, why judges should not be judging their friends, no matter how honest they are.

Well said Keith.

From what I can see especially at the local level, there is a direct correlation between who the judges pal around with (or shall we say, "worship") and the winners.  It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that.  the more the CD works to bring in "neutral" judges the more this effect diminishes.



This really doesn't seem practical, Brad. How does one find trained and qualified judges that don't know anyone in the event?
Chris...

Offline Randy Powell

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 10476
  • TreeTop Flyer
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #26 on: November 26, 2007, 02:39:23 PM »
I'm pretty sure the guys I "pal around" with at contests judge me MORE harshly than an unbiased bystander would. Problem is, these guys have watched me fly for years and know every mistake I tend to make. Hard to get much by them. A lot of stuff is pretty subtle, but when you've watched someone for a long time, you tend to look for even little errors that may escape a judge that hasn't seen you before. It's one of the reasons I don't like to judge some flyers that are my friends. I have flown with them a very long time and know every mistake they tend to make and I look for those mistakes (consciously or unconsciously). I doubt they could get a better score out of me than from someone they don't know or, no matter how much experience judging, has never seen them fly before.
Member in good standing of P.I.S.T
(Politically Incorrect Stunt Team)
AMA 67711
 Randy Powell

Offline Doug Moon

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2310
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2007, 03:50:19 PM »
...Talk about conflict of interest, no matter how honest each individual competitor/judge may try to be.  Even if there is no irregularities, the opportunity for improprieties abound.  In the business that I used to be in, any apparent conflict of interest was as grievous as an actual conflict of interest.

Keith Trostle

You can find a conflict of interest in any stunt contest out there.  That INCLUDES the nats.  Having a small community of fliers and judges makes this happen. 


Doug Moon
AMA 496454
Dougmoon12@yahoo.com

Offline phil c

  • 21 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2480
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #28 on: November 26, 2007, 07:16:16 PM »
While we only tried using flyers as judges at a little contest, there is no reason why it wouldn't work just as well at a large contest.  With 20 flyers and 8-10 of them judging on each flight any bias of one judge rotating in and out between flights would be minor.  As you increase the number of judges the variability in scores goes down very quickly, much faster than a straight percentage.  So you get more accurate, stable scores.  Give each judge a clip board with a calculator so they can add up their own sheet.  The scorer would just have to add up the scores from each and get an average.  Like any other change, it would take a few tries for some of the pilots to get the hang of judging, but they can do it.
phil Cartier

Offline Trostle

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 3392
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2007, 07:49:30 PM »
So that there is not misunderstanding of my use of the term "conflict of interest" as it relates to judging as discussed in this thread.

First, it would probably be impossible to establish any cadre of judges that are well trained and have a lot of experienced and fully understand the rulebook on how the pattern is flown and not have any single individual in that group not know who the top fliers are and whatever reputation any number of fliers have regarding their flying ability.  I guess, in a way, this situation can be looked on as a conflict of interest, but it is not in the context that I was talking about.  What I am referring to, however, is the scenario at a contest where contestants judge other contestants flying in the same event.  Quite frankly, I would not want to judge anybody that I am competing against.  And even more so, I will refuse to ever fly in a contest where somebody is judging me that is flying in the same event.  In either case, where I am judging other competitors or if other competitors are judging me, that is a real conflict of interest in its purest form and I would want no part of it.

There are other issues here as well.  If I understand what has been suggested that many fliers, like as many as 7 or 8 at a time) judge any one competitor, then the judges rotate in and out of this group as the contest unfolds.  That is placing a formidable task/burden on the tabulation people.  Furthermore, what happens when a contestant needs to either repair his model so that he can continue in the competition, or he has a trim problem that needs attention or he just plain needs to leave before the contest is over, so his scores will count on some contestants and then he will not be available, for any number of legitimate reasons, to score other flights during the day.  How can a a realistic placement of fliers be established in such chaos?  (Besides, it is difficult to have more than 5 or 6 judges at a time on a circle.  Most of that group will not be anywhere near the optimum position to view how well the pattern is being flown.

Keith Trostle

Offline Iskandar Taib

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Lieutenant
  • ***
  • Posts: 55
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2007, 07:55:41 PM »
Recruit from the largest pool available out there. RC fliers.  VD~

Offline Doug Moon

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2310
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2007, 11:05:19 PM »
KT,

You make a very good point about people needing to tend to their model during the contest.  This has been discussed around some here when Brad was working on the idea a couple of years back.   If there were say 10 fliers in the contest you as a pilot/judge are out of the rotation a flight before yours to tend to your model.  If you are flying at the DMAA site during a contest you wont making trim flights during the competition.  Practice flights while competition is on is not allowed.  Not even between rounds.  So trim adjustments would be made during the flight prior to yours and hope for the best on your official.  IF you crashed and you needed to repair your model.  I personally dont know how that would be dealt with. 

Tabulation could be made simple.  Change it from 10-40 to be 1-10 with .25 increments.  Then have the judge add them up right there on the spot while the next flier is entering the circle.  Should be pretty feasible.

If the contest is small say 4 or 5 competitors in the class then running it with rotating judges and no need to be out a flight prior because 2 rounds is not going to take that long. 

I am sure a large contest with this type of judging would be announced as such well in advance so those that attend will be well aware they will need to stay through the entire event.

I also think having ADV work the EXP and vice versa would be great. 

As too judges not getting to stand in the right place because there are too many, well I cant count the number of times I have been in front of two judges and they are standing 20' or more apart.  I dont think that would be much of a problem.

Anyway, I think it would cool to have a contest or two each year run like this.  It exposes people to judging abd gets the clipboards in their hands in a much larger scale then recruiting a few guys here and there as the year goes along.  Or getting the guys who dont fly anymore to do all the judging.  It can and could spread it around some.  We have a profile event and an ARF event each year.  These might be excellent places to try it out.   Of course it would be announced way ahead so people know what they are signing up for and what is expected and what they can expect.
Doug Moon
AMA 496454
Dougmoon12@yahoo.com

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2007, 05:33:35 AM »
This entire idea that a flier could "sabotage" another flier with his judging has an easy solution.

Drop scores.   

If anybody were to actually *use* the method I wrote up for "All Pilots Judge" you would see I drop nearly ALL of the scores.

If 8 guys judge, drop the three high high/low and leave only the middle two.  Now try to cheat!!!  The conspiracy would have to be very vast to be successful!!!  HAHAHAHA!!!

There are many methods to normalize scoring, we just don't use any of them.  In fact, the very idea seems to be offensive.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Doug Moon

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 2310
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2007, 07:25:11 AM »
Why is there talk on this thread, and the other trhead about seeding, about people purposely elevating or lowering people's scores and sabotaging the event?  Whenever this has come up in the past as a possibility everyone rushes to defend the judges and say there is no way on earth they would do such a thing and to say so is a flat out insult and we should all be so happy to have someone stand there and take the beating of judging.  Now when it is the pilots judging, well, they are all sinister people and will do anything to win.  Lets not forget most of the judges out there are or were at one time pilots. 
Doug Moon
AMA 496454
Dougmoon12@yahoo.com

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2007, 07:30:23 AM »
Whenever this has come up in the past as a possibility everyone rushes to defend the judges and say there is no way on earth they would do such a thing and to say so is a flat out insult and we should all be so happy to have someone stand there and take the beating of judging.  Now when it is the pilots judging, well, they are all sinister people and will do anything to win. 


I noticed that too.

Interesting that it is OK to suggest pilots will try to cheat but judges won't.  Nice double standard.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline john e. holliday

  • 25 supporter
  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • *
  • Posts: 22981
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2007, 12:39:00 PM »
I think we have a judging group for local contests that has probably not even been thought of.  Why not approach your local scout group or even the local high school ROTC group.  Give each volunteer a printout of what the pattern is supposed to look like.  As someone stated each maneuver is scored 0 to 10.  0 is for the maneuver that can't be recognized.  Minimum of 5 judges with high and low tossed out.   Maybe after a couple of flights, take a break and talk to the volunteers to see what their reasoning is for certain scores.  Don't fotget to thank them for thier time and maybe treat them to dinner.  I can't remember for sure, but, didn't Tulsa draft some spectators to judge the over all free style event they used to have?  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Bradley Walker

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Admiral
  • ******
  • Posts: 1192
    • The Urban Rifleman
Re: Number of Judges
« Reply #36 on: November 27, 2007, 01:36:16 PM »
I think we have a judging group for local contests that has probably not even been thought of.  Why not approach your local scout group or even the local high school ROTC group. 

Interesting you should say that.

I was going to use Marines for the TOC.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw


Advertise Here
Tags: