Brodak Hinges...in ARFs?

[peabody]

Has anyone used the CA type hinges that are included in Brodak ARF/ARCs?
I was looking at a fairly expensive (+$1000) BIG RC model that had them and had lots of flights on it.
They go faster than our stuff and seem to fluctuate as much or more than our planes.


Thanks

[John Rist]

Has anyone used the CA type hinges that are included in Brodak ARF/ARCs?
I was looking at a fairly expensive (+$1000) BIG RC model that had them and had lots of flights on it.
They go faster than our stuff and seem to fluctuate as much or more than our planes.


Thanks

I have used them.  They are stiffer than a well installed pin hinge.  RC has mega strong servos to mover the control surfaces so a little stiff is ok.  They are cheep and easy to install but they are too stiff to suite me.

[Mike Alimov]

Rich,
I'll second John's comments here.  CA hinges have their benefits: cheap and easy to install, light, etc.  However, they require extra force to deflect, and that force grows with the deflection angle.  Also, they (like most plastics) gets stiffer with lower temperatures, so on a cool morning they will feel stiffer than on a 90-degree day.  The RC guys can't run into the Netzeband wall: their control force comes from servos, which simply draw a little more current if extra force is required.  The guy at the transmitter doesn't feel any "side effects".  With control line, we worry about running out of available line tension (mostly overhead) before we can deflect those flaps and elevators.
Here's where I think CA hinges can be used in CL: simple 0.20-.40 size trainers with elevator only.  To reduce the bending force necessary, I usually cut the standard 1/2" wide strips in half, and install about 4-5 of the resulting 1/4" hinges; the total force required is like bending 1" strip of plastic. Kids usually crash trainers long before  any hinge will wear out.
For larger planes (say, SV-11 ARF), do the math: we have typically 12 hinges, at 1" wide each.  It's like bending a 12" long strip of plastic, that constantly wants to return itself into the neutral position.  I'm building the SV-11 right now, and will be replacing those with pinned hinges.  Interestingly, the building manual shows pinned hinges and better quality horns than those supplied with the kit.  But I can't complain, it's still a lot of plane for the money.

[Avaiojet]

Like John said,

Some of those control surfaces also have three or more servos.

[Air Ministry .]

Reading in Geofery Quills Spitfire thing yesterday , if theres RESISTANCE it detracts from STABILITY . I.E. the controls shouldnt resist returning to neutral ,

[peabody]

All valid points...they just seem so easy to use....
I have some Kletts around that I'll use.
Thanks

[Curare]

Reading in Geofery Quills Spitfire thing yesterday , if theres RESISTANCE it detracts from STABILITY . I.E. the controls shouldnt resist returning to neutral ,

If you're using CA hinges, they will force the controls BACK to centre. Probably not a bad thing in a trainer, but not for a super stunter.

[Avaiojet]

All valid points...they just seem so easy to use....
I have some Kletts around that I'll use.
Thanks

Rich,

Klett is a great hinge for CL and it was also excellent for the 64" pattern ships we built, all with killers in the nose, I had Rossi's. All the pattern guys used them and introduced them to me. I was taught how to put them in place also. Yes, they can be put in incorrectly. View the AMA's u-tube video. And others. 

The only step up I can think of is the hinge Sparky designed and I believe he's still currently using them?

I'd like to get my hands on one. I believe Sparky uses only 3 hinges to a flap?

C

[Ara Dedekian]

        It's been a number of years, but I've had them break from fatigue on two RC ships and a Twister. I've been putting up with the drudgery of installing pinned hinges ever since.

         Ara

[John Rist]

Rich,

Klett is a great hinge for CL and it was also excellent for the 64" pattern ships we built, all with killers in the nose, I had Rossi's. All the pattern guys used them and introduced them to me. I was taught how to put them in place also. Yes, they can be put in incorrectly. View the AMA's u-tube video. And others. 

The only step up I can think of is the hinge Sparky designed and I believe he's still currently using them?

I'd like to get my hands on one. I believe Sparky uses only 3 hinges to a flap?

C

Is this Klett hinges you are talking about?  They are not a pin hinge.  Do they flex well?

[Avaiojet]

        It's been a number of years, but I've had them break from fatigue on two RC ships and a Twister. I've been putting up with the drudgery of installing pinned hinges ever since.

         Ara

I've never heard of this happening.

Thousands of guys use them with excellent results. THOUSANDS!

You do know guys pull the pin out and put a dab of oil on it before they install the hinge?

In fact, not only do they pull the pin, they 'carefully' bend a 90 degree on the thing.

Adhesives on the pin and inside the hinge halves can cause issues. All hinges, any hinge, should be checked for smooth operation. Oil is key, before installation. All I ever used was oil just like everyone else.

Another thing, guys like me who hang everything before paint, have to be careful sanding in the hinge line to stay off the hinge. Repeated sanding can create an issue.

600 or better, lightly, on the hinge.

I personally wouldn't get angry with the hinge. Everyone deserves a second chance, even the hinge.

Well, almost everyone.

[Avaiojet]

Is this Klett hinges you are talking about?  They are not a pin hinge.  Do they flex well?

John,

Thanks for the photo.

My reply was for the Klett two part hinge # 101.

That hinge in the photo is not what I Posted information about. Not at all.

If that is the hinge Ara used, it's not difficult to understand a failure over excessive use and time.

Ara,

If that photo is your hinge, forget everything I said. 

I'm not a hinge, but forgive me. 

Charles

[John Rist]

So the Klett two part hinge #101 doesn't exist any more.  What's the next best choice for a full size stunter?   

[Avaiojet]

So the Klett two part hinge #101 doesn't exist any more.  What's the next best choice for a full size stunter?   

John,

There's Dubro #DUB2020

Just about the same but you can't take the pin out.

I've used these years ago. I'd have to look, but I believe I have them in my, now ready for a redo Sikorsky S-39. Something else too left over from R/C, I'd have to look.

I drill for a toothpick on the tip hinge. Drill where the hinge hole is. You don't go all the way through the TE. Make a drill stop. Same with the elevator.

Hard to get rid of old habits.

Charles

[MikeyPratt]

Sorry Guy's,
Use the pin hinges, or the Sig 1/4 scale hinges and make a single wire for all the hinges.  That way they can be removed, painted or covered.  Just my opinion, why would you go to all the expense and time to Mickey Mouse the control surfaces and take a chance on loosing the model, that makes no sense at all.  Do it right the first time and have the piece of mind that the hinges won't do the model in.

Mikey

[Steve Helmick]

Making the wiggling parts removeable makes TONS of sense. Stiff CA hinges make no sense, unless you want to use them for rudders or trim tabs. I don't understand why nobody (like Brodak) has bought the Klett hinge production line. It was in Texas after Carl Goldberg models went under. By the way, I met Carl at the World FF Champs at Taft, CA, in '79. Nice guy...not nearly as tall as I expected. I met Mikey Pratt, too...reminded me of Elvis a bit. Steve

[Perry Rose]

The ARF's have slits cut for the ca hinges. Simply take a forked hinge slotting tool and stick it into the slit to open it up for the pinned hinges. Not at all difficult.

[John Rist]

I think Santa will bring me a Brodak Electric SV11 for Christmas.  If so I use pin hinges.      

[RandySmith]

I put these in all my kits, and  I have used these  Arrowhead hinges for decades, they are excellent ,  and I would use these , over  any  CA hinge in ARFs  or  any airplane
I sell  these  in my  control packs and They are 6.50 for  15 hinges, or 10.99  for  36 hinges  if not  these  I would use the  DuBro standard hinges

Randy

[MikeyPratt]

Steve,
Thank you, Thank you very much.  Elvis played the guitar and sang way better than me, but I had him in the looks department and flew much better lol.  I remember meeting Steve at the Tri-Cities Nat’s, there were a number of great people that I met there, it was good to put a face with the names (still wish the Nat’s would move to different locations).

Later,
Mikey

[Geoff Goodworth]

John Rist, my ARF Oriental had the flat sheet CA hinges which I replaced with pinned hinges. Not hard.

My ARC Vectors both have pinned hinges. Those that came with my models were a little tight but the pins—retained by a knurled end—are easy enough to extract and I am trimming a sliver off each side of the barrel where the two pieces interlock.

My Vectors are maybe 10 years old but I guess that John Brodak is still using something similar.

[Steve Helmick]

Steve,
Thank you, Thank you very much.  Elvis played the guitar and sang way better than me, but I had him in the looks department and flew much better lol.  I remember meeting Steve at the Tri-Cities Nat’s, there were a number of great people that I met there, it was good to put a face with the names (still wish the Nat’s would move to different locations).

Later,
Mikey

Since I didn't go to either Tri-Cities NATS, I'm pretty sure it was at a NW CL Regionals, Mikey. Probably Albany, but maybe Eugene? Those two airport contests sort of get mixed up in my headbone. I seem to recall that you flew a borrowed plane, maybe from Patrick? Here's a picture of me with Gordan Delaney's wonderdog "Bogie" in front of Gordy's house. I look more like Chuck Norris than Elvis, don't you think?    Steve

[MikeyPratt]

Hi Steve,
Well I guess I don’t remember were it was at, I flew into the contest and borrowed a plane fron David Fitzgerald which was a Thunder Gazer with the PA 74.  For the most part it flew great.  But the fuel tank was hard to fill up completely.  On my second official flight it ran out of gas in the overheads, so I just landed it so it was safe and sound (it was borrowed after all and I didn’t want to risk it by whipping it through the four leaf and the landing, note: I’ve done that before in the past).

 I’ve never been to Gordy’s place you lucky Dude, Gordo is one if my favorite people!

Say Hi to Chuck for me,
Mikey

[Ken Culbertson]

Hi Steve,
Well I guess I don’t remember were it was at, I flew into the contest and borrowed a plane fron David Fitzgerald which was a Thunder Gazer with the PA 74.  For the most part it flew great.  But the fuel tank was hard to fill up completely.  On my second official flight it ran out of gas in the overheads, so I just landed it so it was safe and sound (it was borrowed after all and I didn’t want to risk it by whipping it through the four leaf and the landing, note: I’ve done that before in the past).

 I’ve never been to Gordy’s place you lucky Dude, Gordo is one if my favorite people!

Say Hi to Chuck for me,
Mikey

Mikey, I have done some crazy stuff wind flying when I was a kid but I was never able to do a clover and boy I did try.  How in the world did you keep enough momentum to do the third loop?  I promise not to tell... 

Ken