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Author Topic: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....  (Read 1702 times)

Offline Ty Marcucci

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Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« on: January 16, 2018, 02:23:15 PM »
 D>K
« Last Edit: August 30, 2018, 02:53:35 PM by Ty Marcucci »
Ty Marcucci

Offline GERALD WIMMER

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2018, 03:10:02 PM »
Hello
From my experience with silk it depends on how tight the weave is,  as some very fine weave materials seem to shrink less then those with a more open weave.
This seems to have more bearing then the strength or type of dope used but i do mix shrinking and no shrink dopes to prevent wrapping as once tight non shrink is fine to seal it.
Regards Gerald

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2018, 09:30:09 PM »
Ty, I'm sure you are aware that both nitrate and butyrate have tautening and non-tautening formulas.  I just built a couple of 60's era combat models both covered with silk.  I used non-tautening nitrate from the bare wood and covering.  Fill coats are non-tautening nitrate also.  They didn't get tight.  I put a coat of tautening nitrate on the open bays and they got reasonably tight.  Now I will put a coat of tautening butyrate on the open bays and I guarantee they will be drum tight.  From there on will be non tautening butyrate.  Overuse of tautening dope, either one, will make a pretzel for you.  I use this same method for models with silksapan and polyspan with no problems with a loose finish.

I have no idea why people quit using nitrate. 
Mike

Offline Bill Morell

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 08:54:55 AM »
I quit using it as it doesn't have the "life span" of butyrate in the can. I had several cans of nitrate and they ALL went bad waiting to be used. When I opened them they looked like Hersheys chocolate syrup and smelled unbelievable! However they were killer on the weeds behind my shop!
Bill Morell
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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 09:56:04 AM »
I've applied silk on many models and all of them are in builds explaining what I do, methods and products.

I used Nitrate once and didn't like it, so mid covering I changed over to Butyrate, removing the silk and the Nitrate.

I'm not saying don't use Nitrate, go ahead, you might like it.

I now apply silk dry. I see no reason to wet it any longer. I've also applied silk with CA. Applied dry using CA on the ARGO 2 and on areas of the Gee Bee Z. TIGHT AS A SNARE DRUM! I know, I once played the drums.  ;D

I wrote a song, "I'll never use wet silk again." I'm kidding, I'm not a song writer.

But for sure, I will never wet silk again.

Here's the ARGO 2, silk applied dry with CA.

CB



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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2018, 01:18:03 PM »
I quite using Nitrate for simple prep steps reduction and some cost avoidance since I can get near same results with just the two Butyrate versions and not have to worry about accidentally trying to put Nitrate on top

So far with Poly span, silkspan, and Dharma 5mm or 8mm silk I have no issues with my Butyrate ONLY taught and non taught process

I do find it imperative, with the Dharma silk, to pay very close attention to orientation as the stuff (once rinsed of the sizing) only shrinks 1~2 % width wise and a meager 5~7% length wise....

For what it is worth... I may have some Sig and Brodak colors...but mostly I use Gallons of Randolph dope and thinner from a Dallas based Airplane repair source.... the $48 each gallon of taught and non taught dope and 5 gallons of thinner will last the rest of my life

I will however agree....from my experience...the use of Nitrate on bare Balsa FIRST ----is probably within the Best practices realm.

It seem to me for the first several fill coats of bare balsa and then the initial tack down of the covering...Nitrate dope...traditional method ....does melt and hold the covering better, and dry a bit faster

My Singular reason ---for NOT using Nitrate any more -----is the grief when I have a senior moment and brush on some Nitrate over the top of any other product...grand mess that is NOT easy to correct
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 04:32:04 PM »
As a matter of fact I too have had nitrate get yucky.  Usually the culprit is a not completely sealed container allowing moisture to creep in.  I live in Washington where it rains a lot.  I'm careful to keep all of my coatings in cabinet free of any outside contaminates.  Turning amber color seems to be normal over time.  Yes, the I use it is because of its nature of filling faster and being stickier than butyrate.  For Polyspan nitrate really works better than butyrate.  It gets down to dealer's choice.  On silk, the tautening really does the job.  Back in the day, like when we were kids, I'm pretty sure all I had was tautening butyrate.  Didn't know any better.  I had Sneekers and Voodoos that would twist like a pretzel if I got carried away with clear dope.  Usually did! 
BTW, no one will ever catch me using CA to attach any kind of covering.  Again, to each his own.

Edit to remove underline.
Mike

Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2018, 05:27:42 PM »
 
BTW, no one will ever catch me using CA to attach any kind of covering.  Again, to each his own.

Edit to remove underline.
[/quote]

I'm with you Mike. I tried using ZAP to attach fiber glass..... what a disaster! It's epoxy and the toilet paper method or nothing!  HB~>

Jerry

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2018, 05:40:16 PM »
 
BTW, no one will ever catch me using CA to attach any kind of covering.  Again, to each his own.

Edit to remove underline.


I'm with you Mike. I tried using ZAP to attach fiber glass..... what a disaster! It's epoxy and the toilet paper method or nothing!  HB~>

Jerry

Well, while I've used it successfully to attach fiberglass cloth for wing center section reinforcement I'm quite sure that I could never attach silk with it without really screwing it up.  However I don't doubt for a minute that some people could, and do, use it that way.  Why, is another question entirely!

Randy Cuberly
Randy Cuberly
Tucson, AZ

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2018, 06:37:02 PM »
Hey, you guys can still use your methods if you like, but why be maligners.

Not to mention you've never tried it. So, I'm just being marginalized as usual.

Ask Will Moore, he's seen the ARGO 2. No sags between any of the ribs, it's as tight as it gets!

I'll stay with my process of attaching silk because it's a much better way than wetting silk and using dope products.

How do I know? Because I have experience doing this both ways.

Whereas you have absolutely no experience applying silk with CA. Yet you elect to knock it.

It does take a nack and acquired skill to do it properly.

Here's the quality of my work which speaks for itself. that's why I Post photos, to back up what I say. And it is my work.

CB



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If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2018, 07:10:10 PM »
Wonderful, just how many of those beauties have been to a contest.  Not many of us care about the off beat things you do.  No experience with CA and silk?  That's just dumb.  It is heavy, hard to sand and so on.  Bring some of those queens to the NATS and ask around.  I'll bet you won't find anyone to agree with you and probably won't argue with you either.  I don't even know why I responded.  Dropping down a level usually is not my style.
Mike

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2018, 07:37:40 PM »
Sooooo, inquiring minds want to know....
Is the idea of using 100% butyrate acceptable, even over open bays in the wing (when done properly of course).
Butyrate is a little easier to get for me, I believe.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2018, 08:07:33 PM »
Sooooo, inquiring minds want to know....
Is the idea of using 100% butyrate acceptable, even over open bays in the wing (when done properly of course).
Butyrate is a little easier to get for me, I believe.

Dane,

You know I always talk kindly to others and I'm sure you know I always want to set a fine example. Bad enough the hobby suffers from interest and growth. I don't discourage anyone, my purpose is to promote the hobby only. I do what I enjoy.

There's nothing wrong using 100% dope. That's all we had that I knew about when I started, early 60's.

So, fine if you like dope, use it. Hey! Knock yourself out. I do use only dope to fill the weave and over most all sheeted areas. I don't fill the weave with CA. I do put dope right over the CA. Stick good Kemosabe.

Myself, I've said this 100 times, I don't have the patents. I did the last wing top on the Gee Bee R3 in minutes. Check out the Build. Silk applied dry with CA. Tight as a drum.

Soooooooooo, I experiment. Someone has to!

You know I don't use dope for colors either.

This model, 100% dope was used to apply the silk and fill the weave. Kit bashed Ares. Even back then I couldn't leave a kit alone.

I took the shot.

CB



Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
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Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Will Hinton

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2018, 08:20:49 PM »
Dane, I've covered full scale planes with 100% butyrate with no problems.  The regular tautening works well until the covering is where it should be then finish filling the weave with non-tautening.
I also use it the same way when and if I use silk, silkspan, or coverite.  There's a lot of different stories out there, so when in doubt, check with your local A&P mechanics for the true facts.
John 5:24   www.fcmodelers.com

Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2018, 08:37:35 PM »
100% butyrate works fine.  Nitrate fills weave faster and is easier to work with on compound curves because it is sticker and seems to respond to heat better.  Be sure to use a coat or two of tautening butyrate on open bays and you will be really happy.  I've done it both ways with pretty much every covering material.

BTW, Charles it has been mentioned many times and not in mean spirited tone that viewing your nonflying models gets a little tiresome.  Ty made no mention of using CA, only the problem of getting silk to shrink in some cases.  Take however you want.
Mike

Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #15 on: January 17, 2018, 08:53:43 PM »
Very cool. Thanks Will and Mike. That's exactly what I was after.

Offline Avaiojet

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #16 on: January 17, 2018, 09:08:39 PM »
100% butyrate works fine.  Nitrate fills weave faster and is easier to work with on compound curves because it is sticker and seems to respond to heat better.  Be sure to use a coat or two of tautening butyrate on open bays and you will be really happy.  I've done it both ways with pretty much every covering material.

BTW, Charles it has been mentioned many times and not in mean spirited tone that viewing your nonflying models gets a little tiresome.  Ty made no mention of using CA, only the problem of getting silk to shrink in some cases.  Take however you want.

Mike,

You guys are always bothered by something I do, and always find a way to troll me. Queens? What business is it of yours?  Am I knocking your interest in combat. Show me where I knocked any one's interest in anything.

Combat? Do they last long? If I did combat I'd use CA to attach the silk dry and fill the open bays with dope. DONE!!

Instead of acting like you are and commenting badly, just give it a try. But be advised there's stuff you have to know and technique involved.

Do you think I would spend time designing my Gee Bee R3, cutting all the wood and constructing the model just to ruin it with poorly applied silk? I don't think so.

The GBR3 was covered with dry silk. CA 'only' around the outer edges. Dope to fill the weave and Deft wood sealer over all sheeted areas. Three layers of dope applied to all wood first on the wings only.

Try it, you'll like it.  LL~

CB



Trump Derangement Syndrome. TDS. 
Avaiojet Derangement Syndrome. ADS.
Amazing how ignorance can get in the way of the learning process.
If you're Trolled, you know you're doing something right.  Alpha Mike Foxtrot. "No one has ever made a difference by being like everyone else."  Marcus Cordeiro, The "Mark of Excellence," you will not be forgotten. "No amount of evidence will ever persuade an idiot."- Mark Twain. I look at the Forum as a place to contribute and make friends, some view it as a Realm where they could be King.   Proverb 11.9  "With his mouth the Godless destroys his neighbor..."  "Perhaps the greatest challenge in modeling is to build a competitive control line stunter that looks like a real airplane." David McCellan, 1980.

Offline Bill Morell

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #17 on: January 18, 2018, 07:42:15 AM »
Mike,

You guys are always bothered by something I do, and always find a way to troll me.

Why is it if we don't agree with some of the crap you do your only resort is to accuse everyone of "trolling" you? Stay in your little play ground Robert let you have and you wouldn't have to respond to others comments.
Bill Morell
It wasn't that you could and others couldn't, its that you did and others didn't.
Vietnam 72-73
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Offline Dane Martin

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #18 on: January 18, 2018, 09:20:57 AM »
Dane, I've covered full scale planes with 100% butyrate with no problems.  The regular tautening works well until the covering is where it should be then finish filling the weave with non-tautening.
I also use it the same way when and if I use silk, silkspan, or coverite.  There's a lot of different stories out there, so when in doubt, check with your local A&P mechanics for the true facts.

I'm currently working on my PPL. Slowly, we're buying a house also. But I know some guys who are A&P.
So, when that's done and I can fly to the contests I like to, or would like to attend, can I come to someone's house and they can show me how to dope wings? ? Lol!

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #19 on: January 18, 2018, 09:49:43 AM »
I thought that Sparky had some videos on covering and doping wings.   Also check out Robins View Productions as he may have some also. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Online RC Storick

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #20 on: January 18, 2018, 06:12:47 PM »
My 2 cents. I have covered a few wings with Silkspan -Jap tissue - Coverall - Monokote and silk. I have always used Butyrate Dope for this process. Sence the advent of CA I have used it sparingly on stubborn areas such as wing tips That just wont stick down. Once I grasped this concept I have never had any bagging in covering. Here is the concept. These covering materials do not shrink, they relax with water and in that relaxed state you can maneuver all wrinkles out while damp. After it dries it returns to its original state. Even using this concept for Monokote does not bag in the sun. Use the least amount of heat needed to shrink the Xkote and it pays off in the end result.

Carry on.
AMA 12366

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #21 on: January 18, 2018, 07:02:21 PM »
Several have reported good results with silk and all-butyrate.  I agree, and it always works.
I have one model covered in silk and butyrate, which has lasted since  1962 (that's about 55 years).  It still looks good.

I still use nitrate, for furniture.  Reason:  nitrate generally  has higher solids content, making for fewer sprayed coats.
89 years, but still going (sort of)
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Offline Mike Haverly

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #22 on: January 18, 2018, 07:56:52 PM »
Floyd said
"I still use nitrate, for furniture.  Reason:  nitrate generally  has higher solids content, making for fewer sprayed coats."

It also fills silk faster, Polyspan too with fewer coats.

Again, dealers choice.
Mike

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: Not sure, but I thinkI know the reason....
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2018, 03:56:43 PM »
Ty and Dane,
I quit using nitrate because I can't tell the difference. Sig Lite Coat butyrate is what I use for everything now. I do stay very close to keeping system constants though, I use Sig thinner, dope, sanding sealer too. I used it on poly span and tissue on the new Nobler and it's fine. Easy deal. My Dad used to use all butyrate airport dope on silk, he then built one model with tissue and butyrate. No difference. I have 60 year old all butyrate models that are as nice as new.
Bob Whitely uses nitrate still, it's seems to be just a personal choice. I recently was speaking to Lou Wolgast and he said he is all butyrate now too.
Chris...


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