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General control line discussion => Open Forum => Topic started by: RC Storick on December 25, 2013, 09:22:46 AM

Title: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 25, 2013, 09:22:46 AM
Control-Line Aerodynamics Made Painless

By BILL NETZEBAND


Control-Line Aerodynamics Made Painless, Roger Wildman with his Invader, Jul/Aug 1966 AM
 Roger Wildman with his Invader, one of several aerobatic aircraft used to check out calculations. Weighs 60 ozs., McCoy .40, 600 squares, 48 mph.


  
 Crewcut Bill goes long-hair! And he has conspirators, many of the nation's leading designers. Line rake angle is an all-important factor, they agree.


Since the beginning of control-line models, back in the 40's, the design phase, viewed from published information, has been a "black art" relying on phases of the moon, superstition, etc. "Designers" appeared to ignore, or misunderstand, the unique effects of flying in circles tied to a pilot in the center.

We were told to balance the model on front lead-out; or balance it on the bellcrank pivot; or to balance one thumbprint forward of the main spar, or any other such nonsense that pop­ped into a designer's head. All we really knew was that his model balanced there and he liked it! Always they were half right-and half wrong. Actually, we lived by the "Flea Fright" practice of adjusting each ship to tailor out the kinks, if it survived the first flight! Ultimately, we were subjected to a lot of marginal designs (mine, too) flown by talented pilots who took it upon themselves to explain phenomena they didn't understand. Luckily, we do not wipe out pilots during crashes.

Back in 1951 I started serious investigation into miniature aerodynamics. It is simply a matter of applying classic aerodynamics to our size whenever we could. The principles, happily enough, apply directly; the problems are in the constants. Guess and test methods were used to backup mathematical correction of lift, drag and inertia factors, finally coming up with "numbers" useful to our size airplanes. One slight point irks me. Only a scale model of a man-carrying airplane qualifies for the name "model." If we design an airplane for a specific performance criterion, then it's an airplane, no matter how small!

In future issue we'll present a generous portion of concentrated CL aerodynamics; concentrated meaning, any mathematical procedure will be explained in English and useful equations will be reduced to simple nomographs. We will be shooting for those of you interested in knowing Why and How, but who have not elected to follow a career in engineering or science. We assume that Math and Aero majors will be reading very critically looking for mistakes!

Basic Physical Facts: This installment covers a phenomenon not recognized in any other branch of science, at least not in books I've been able to read. So we had to develop our solution. We tie our airplane to a handle, pick up that handle and stand there while the airplane zooms around us. The physical reactions caused by moving a body (object) in a hemispherical plane, supported by thin flexible lines, with motive power applied at the object, are unique to CL airplanes.

Flying above the handle introduces forces not covered in classic aerodynamic work, and the effects of the lines themselves are interesting. Our phenomenon is the curve that appears in the lines: How do we measure it accurately, its effect on the airplane, and what do we do in the design of the airplane to achieve the best performance? Where should the line-guide be located?
 
Since Isaac Newton discovered that an object pulled by a force tends to move in a straight line, we must apply another force to make that object move in a circle. This is called Centripetal Force, which you apply at the handle. There then exists an equal and opposite force to balance it called Centrifugal Force. (EQ 1) These two keep the circle round because, if unbalanced, like a broken line, the object heads back toward its straight line. The amount of centripetal force is determined by the weight of the airplane, the angular rate at which it moves around the circle, and the length of the lines. For our purposes we convert angular velocity to tangential velocity and call this the airplane speed (V) generally in miles per hour (mph).
 
By convention, we make lines to a length which will give standard distance from handle to airplane centerline. The center of gravity (CG) of the airplane is very close to center­line, so we now state that airplane speed (V) is that of CG. To simplify matters let's assume the Thrust of the prop passes through the CG. This done we could throwaway the airplane and use a dimensionless lump, same weight, at the CG. If it were possible to mount the bellcrank pivot exactly on the CG and the load of each line didn't change (it does) we could fly without a line guide.
 
Since precise location is not practical, we add some form of line support between the bellcrank and the handle. After adding the line-guide one problem is solved, another created. For years we were fooled into believ­ing that the position of the bellcrank in the airplane controlled its attitude. Not so. The bellcrank can be almost anywhere in the airplane.

A simple cardboard outline of an airplane will show this relation (photograph in continued portion). Place an eye (U-shaped bent pin) in one wing tip and tie a pin on the end of a thread. Run the thread through the eye and stick a pin anywhere in the cardboard.

Observe how the thing hangs and then move the pin (string end) to some other location. Right! Anywhere you' stick that pin the airplane hangs the same. Now move the eye (line-guide). The airplane assumes some new posi­tion. The CG of the airplane will line up with the line-guide. (Note: It would be nice to mount the bell crank on a line between the CG and the line­guide, because the control lines could lead straight through the line-guide, therefore operating with the least stiff­ness.)
 
 We must qualify the above facts by stating that the line must be very flexible compared to the weight of the airplane. A perfectly flexible wire can carry no side load without bending. Misplaced bell crank side load is re­acted inside the airplane, not appear as an aerodynamic force. Notice that this effect is factual for the fore-and­aft and also the vertical position of the CG. Were you to use say 1/16-in. diameter lead-outs on a V2 A ship, running them beyond the line guide 4 or 5% of the total line length, and then placing the bell crank at a kooky position, you have established an exception. All practical cases so far.

The next problem is line shape. Closest parallel in engineering mechanics is the Catenary, a curved line between two points similar to a slack flexible cord hanging between two poles. This cord is assumed to be carrying only its own weight (uniformly distributed load) and its hangs in a mathematically predictable shape.

The point of maximum deflection from a straight line between the support points is in the exact center of the wire. The deflection is inversely proportional to the tension in the line (more tension, smaller deflection), and directly proportional to the weight of the lines. You can demonstrate this one with a piece of control line, so we'll not describe the experiment. It will prove that in horizontal flight your lines will droop from gravity causing a slight vertical angle leading into the airplane CG. For most airplanes "going around flat and fast" this angle is too small to measure.

To determine line shape in the horizontal plane (top view), we resort to forces shown in Fig. 1. Here the load on the line is not uniformly distributed. Load is caused by aerodynamic drag which is proportional to a constant times velocity squared. The velocity of the wire is assumed to be zero at the handle end (as in a pylon) and increases directly proportional to the distance away from the handle finally reaching airplane speed (V). Therefore, each little piece of line travels at a different velocity. This dictates the process of mathematical summation to find line drag. (More later.) To move this force system we apply thrust (T) to the CG, T being just enough to carry the effective line drag (DL). To establish equilibrium in the system we need a thrust at the handle (TH). Surprised? Fact is, without a pylon, whipping is a way of life. (Say it isn't so!-Ed.) At a later time we'll show how to whip best. But back to the lines.

It is conventional in vector analysis to resolve a vector (a force with a definite magnitude and direction) into two vectors 90° apart, or vice versa. Thus, vector force FA (line tension) is the combined result of T and CF. It has an angular relationship to both, but we're interested in its angular relation to the line of action for CF. This is (∞) Eq. 2. Likewise angle (f3) Eq. 3 is related to FH, TH and Centripetal Force (not shown). Once we know (∞) we know where to place the line guide! The development of an exact equation for (∞) was a laborious chore. We'll not cover every detail, but a brief history should be enlightening.

Math Solution Development: Progress started in response to my published force diagram inside the airplane during the March/April 1963 CLC column in this magazine. Basically, it referred a portion of the line drag (DL) equal to (T) applied to the line-guide. This may not be 100% valid, since the lines slide through holes, but wear on the back of such holes proves some force exists. Right or wrong, we then searched out a coupling force to keep the airplane from turning into the circle. The reacting couple turned out to be CF and Cen­tripetal force if the CG were moved forward in space to develop an arm between them. The resultant angle turned out to be exactly the amount as (∞) from the last paragraph.

When the bellcrank center is exactly on the CG, and if thrust is exactly through the CG the force at the line guide will disappear, if (∞) is correct. It should be reemphasized that bell crank pivot should be close to the CG, to reduce the bending at the line-guide which can cause stiff controls. At the time we didn't have a reliable drag coefficient for the lines, so progress ceased.

Receipt of math from Rex Powell and Charles Klabunde provided an equation for line shape and angles (∞) and (β) Eq. 4. They had some trouble agreeing on drag coefficient (Cd), otherwise complete agreement existed. Their work disclosed that with proper manipulation and substitution (∞) was indeed proportional to the ratio of DL to CF. Also they proved the centroid of line drag was at a point three-quarters of the distance out from the handle. Thus airplane thrust is three times handle thrust. It was further shown that since both DL and CF are proportional to V2, the system angles should be independent of velocity. This turns up frequently in our aerodynamics and, when estimating, we take advantage of it. However, Mom Nature wasn't so kind as all that there. (Figures-Ed.) Enter the villain in this piece, Mr. Reynold's marvelous number.

Osborne Reynolds was first to discover, understand and define the effects of object size, shape, speed of flow and viscosity of medium. Crudely put, he found that if two objects have the same shape but different size they will not have the same drag coefficient (or lift coefficient), unless speeds of flow and viscosity are varied to make their Reynolds numbers equal. (Eq. 5) is a simplified version of this with the viscosity held constant for air under NACA standard conditions of pressure and temperature.

When this is done, R becomes proportional to V and "some dimension defining length in the direction of flow." This dimension in our case is (d) the dia. of our lines in inches. Our lines are the same diameter from handle to airplane, the same shape, and air viscosity is constant, but (V) varies. So we can't completely ignore velocity because Cd does not remain constant from handle to airplane.

Reverting to experimental data, by old timers, it was found that, over our range of interest in R, Cd wandered from 2.4 or higher to around 0.98. Three different people ran experiments that appeared to agree well enough to believe. Unfortunately, the variation wouldn't nicely convert to an equation so we could plug it in. We were held for the moment to saying "Let's use CD = I." This gave a fairly reasonable number considering we were looking at thin, dirty, vibrating lines. But there was more to come.

Ed Fort sent along a complete line­drag equation using an approximate equation for Cd as estimated by F. Eisner (Eq. 6). By substituting for R in terms of V and d, and solving a definite integral he allowed as how total line drag was per Eq. 7. One glitch in this Cd, it continued decreasing where experimental data proved an increase occurred. This would cause error in large lines and high-speed airplanes like C-Speed ships. But it was the best yet.

We made a nomograph of this one, congratulating ourselves and all concerned. Meanwhile Pete Soule confirmed Rex's and Charles' work tying in nicely with my stuff and picking Cd = 1. (We were going to publish the results but job changes, fires etc. short-stopped that.) We tried it out on several models with reasonable experimental results. (It was close! )
Pete Soule showed up one evening with a solution giving "effective line drag" based on thrust horsepower used to pull a portion of the lines (Eq, 8). He had also resolved the Cd problem by finding an "effective drag coefficient" based upon the Reynolds number of a line traveling at airplane speed. This bit involved complex curve fitting by Gaussian Quadrature (Who he?-Ed.), and I'll leave it lying right there. The validity is unques­tionable so we constructed the final nomographs which appear here. You think that part was tough? Those are the answers. You should have been around for the questions!

Two other gentlemen got in hot licks. Piper Mason went at the problem with a jet model and careful observations, outlining a good test method. Bob Ormiston's observations pretty well concurred with what we finally got. What did we get, you ask?
 
 We Got Results:

1. An angle between the CG and the line-guide which if built into an airplane will fly that airplane squarely tangent to the circle; theoretically providing least drag, most thrust and good line tension.
2. If you don't want to fly squarely tangent to the circle, you can correctly bias the angle to suit your whim. No Guesswork when yawing in or out.
3. An exact method of determining the line drag the engine has to move. This will lead down the musty corridors to finding airplane drag coefficients, measur­ing the effect of streamlining, engine hop-up, prop thrust etc. We still need 1% accurate engine Bhp characteristics and any kind of propeller thrust data.
4. A basis for evaluating the best techniques for "whipping."

And we finally opened a door that was closed.

Practical Considerations:

For about two years we subjected the calculated results to flight testing. Speed work by Roger Theobald, TR by Pete Soule, Rat and TR by John Barr. Stunt by Roger Wildman and "li'l ole line-maker me" dashing around with Combat, Carrier and 1/2­bugging all concerned. Each time we carefully adjusted speed and CG-to-line­guide relation to airplane weight we con­firmed the accuracy of the calculations.

 Just to keep it from being too simple we got "wind." Real briefly; wind, when headed directly into, causes an additional line-drag load, this one uniform (like the catenary) so TH and T to balance it are equal. It can be troublesome since V is not increased and is sometimes decreased which means ∞ will get larger. Upwind the nose pulls in. Downwind the effect is opposite. Jolly old experience (the results of poor judgment) shows us the ½A through .15 sport airplanes and all stunt types need increased line rake for breezy flying. Reasoning process, backed by flight work, says for large Cd, like with slow velocities and small lines, the build up of drag is more drastic. Also, slow basic speeds (around 50 mph) mean a 30-mph wind is over 50% of the base speed. So we simply provide these air­planes with extra holes in the line guide to increase rake in 1½° intervals.

If your ½A is stuck with one leadout location add 15 mph when calculating DL. This about covers a 30-mph wind condition. A stunt ship should be flown with rake as close to ideal as possible to
hold down lateral glitching on tight(?) corners. Half-A's generally are marginal on basic line tension, so we must guaran­tee that they'll stay under control. Speed jobs are still subject to more testing, but don't bother correcting for wind. Combat, Rat and TR ships have worked out best with ideal calculated angles. Carrier ships are calculated at 40 mph speed to cover the speed range accurately.

Look over Table 1 for some extreme values in any category. Lines used are either required by rules or "most used" size. Weights are a little "outside" both directions. Final numbers pretty well box in each category. Numbers are "straight", no adjustment for wind.

How about engine offset and rudder? The facts vary widely so that each case is a new game. The CF-DL force is much larger than the combined forces of any normal engine offset or normal rudder area. Again Stunt and ½A sport must be evaluated each to its own. IF you build-in the right ∞, bad judgment on engine offset and rudder area won't hurt much. Incidentally, the side force from engine offset isn't what we look for, unless you put in 100 or more. We examine the thrust line's distance in­board of the CG (it had better be inboard) to evaluate its turning moment to keep the nose headed properly under all weird conditions.

If you want to tell me about that extreme case that shoots all this down, be very certain you send all of the facts! There are no mysteries; only a lack of complete knowledge.

We have not deliberately ignored the Scale buffs. Your problems are always very special and we recommend that you play the game straight. It was convenient to end the weight scale on Nomograph 4 at 100 ounces, but if you have something heavier, divide the weight by 2, perform the calculation and double the CF. Nomographs and Procedures: The nomograph is a handy tool, similar in operation to a slide rule, in that logarithms of numbers are added or subtracted geometrically to perform multiplication or division. The two dimensional layout essentially operates on the principle of similar triangles allowing answer or pivot line's location to automatically include constant factors. Each nomograph is designed to solve a specific equation; making it ideal for often-used calculations. The only other tools necessary are a straight edge, preferably clear plastic (and very straight) and a thin sharp pointed instrument (like a pencil). Throughout the projected series we will provide nomographs for all significant mathematics.

Finally, the nomograph generally allows sliderule accuracy, always precise enough to match our building capabili­ties. Our nomographs will be designed to start on outside scales (Left and Right), working through pivot lines 1 and/or 2 and the inside scales toward the answer. After you gain experience you'll find that they can be solved in different order to work backwards toward some independent variable. [Example-Find weight of airplane on 60'x.015 dia. lines to generate 50# of CF @ 100 mph. (Ans. 4½ lb.)]

For practice you might solve the examples in Table I to see how estimates of points are handled. Let's take the "Sport 35" at 18 ounces for a trial run. Step by step: (Note-Examples shown on Nomographs are to demonstrate procedure only).

A. Reynolds Number from Nomograph I
1. Place pointer on V scale (LH) at 60 mph.
2. Slide straight edge firmly against pointer and move right end until it lines up with .015 line diameter on RH scale.
3. Read answer of 700 from center scale.

Now you have the whole basis. Hit the first point with pointer, slide straight edge to it, swing edge to other point and read.

B. (Cd). This one is simply read from Graph I.
Note that the R scale is logarithmic, the Cd scale is linear and use your noodle when estimating. Cd in our case is 1.12. C. Drag for One Line-Nomograph 2
1. Pointer on 60 mph (LH outside) (V)
2. Straight edge from pointer to 60' line length (r) (RH outside)
3. This time instead of reading, lift pointer and move over to where the straight edge crosses Pivot Line 1. Place pointer there.
4. Holding edge against point on PL 1 swing edge down to 1.12 on the Cd scale (inside R H) .
5. Pick up and hold point at Pivot Line 2.
6. Holding point at PL 2, swing left edge down to .015 line dia. (d).
7. Now read the answer from Drag scale (DL) (.20 lb/line ).

D.  Centrifugal Force-Nomograph 3
1. Pick up model weight (18 oz.) on LH scale using inside divisions.                  .
2. Set straight edge to cross line length scale at 60'.
3. Pick up and hold crossing of Pivot Line.
4. Swing edge up to 60 mph on RH Speed scale.
5. Read answer from CF scale as 4.4 lbs.

E.  Rake angle-Nomograph 4
 1. Determine line drag (DL) by multiplying DL from step (C) by the num­ber of lines. (2 x .20 = .40#)
2. Pick up line drag on DL (LH scale) at .40 lb.
3. Set up straight edge to cross CF (RH scale) at 4.4 lbs.
 4. Finally! Rear rake either in degrees (5.5°) or in inches back in 10" of span (.98" in 10"). The latter method is a bit more accurate for layout purposes, particularly if you don't have a good big protractor.
The whole operation should take less than 5 minutes and both speed and ac­curacy improve with practice.

Wrap Up: One last item. The angle we calculate is partially phantom, in that it falls exactly half way between the line guide holes for a two-line system, when the lines are equally loaded. That "equally loaded" is important. As the elevator is moved from neutral the point shifts to the line under greater tension. If you operate a limited bell crank movement, as in combat, the load will be carried completely by either wire during maneu­vers and the point of action will coincide with that lead out. These facts dictate that line-guide holes should be very close together or through the same hole. One' hole is practical only if you connect the clips inside the wing, or if you stagger the leadout ends. Otherwise the holes should never be farther apart than one inch, preferably closer than a half inch.

With a three-line Robert's system it is conventional that pull on the middle line closes the throttle. It is desirable to bring this line out closer to the aft line, also arranging controls so that the aft line is "UP". This trick will allow slow flight at maximum yaw angle. The over-and­under lead-out system in Stunt is somewhat shaky, since the airplane responds in the lateral direction (roll), generally unfavorably, if you're looking for maximum smoothness in sharp comers.

If, perchance, your use of these data shows apparent errors, please try to consider every variable involved before you condemn us. Many carefully observed experiments have been performed to establish our high degree of confidence. If you still have trouble ship us every bit of information and we'll check it out.

All trademarks, copyrights, patents, and other rights of ownership to images and text used on Stunt Hangar website are hereby acknowledged. If you own material used here and want it to be removed, please send an email

If you are going to reply to this just to argue I don't need you and neither does anyone else.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: john e. holliday on December 25, 2013, 03:51:32 PM
Thanks Sparky, I now have my bed time reading material and it is 8 pages. H^^
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Brett Buck on December 25, 2013, 06:01:14 PM
Ed Fort sent along a complete line­drag equation using an approximate equation for Cd as estimated by F. Eisner (Eq. 6). By substituting for R in terms of V and d, and solving a definite integral he allowed as how total line drag was per Eq. 7. One glitch in this Cd, it continued decreasing where experimental data proved an increase occurred. This would cause error in large lines and high-speed airplanes like C-Speed ships. But it was the best yet.

We made a nomograph of this one, congratulating ourselves and all concerned. Meanwhile Pete Soule confirmed Rex's and Charles' work tying in nicely with my stuff and picking Cd = 1. (We were going to publish the results but job changes, fires etc. short-stopped that.) We tried it out on several models with reasonable experimental results. (It was close! )
Pete Soule showed up one evening with a solution giving "effective line drag" based on thrust horsepower used to pull a portion of the lines (Eq, 8). He had also resolved the Cd problem by finding an "effective drag coefficient" based upon the Reynolds number of a line traveling at airplane speed. This bit involved complex curve fitting by Gaussian Quadrature (Who he?-Ed.), and I'll leave it lying right there. The validity is unques­tionable so we constructed the final nomographs which appear here. You think that part was tough? Those are the answers. You should have been around for the questions!

If you are going to reply to this just to argue I don't need you and neither does anyone else.

    LINEII does the same calculation used to generate the nomograph, and note that it refers to the position of the leadout guide with respect to the CG, not the bellcrank pivot. Note also that it tells you that the reason to consider the bellcrank position is only to reduce the drag on the leadouts causing by running through the guide at an angle, exactly as was stated in this thread from 2005:

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=183427&mesg_id=183427&listing_type=search#183430

    where you said Bill was wrong.

    Brett
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 25, 2013, 06:16:08 PM
Ok Brett please on your next plane mount the bellcrank ahead of the CG. Let us know how that works out. I am done arguing with you . No mater what you believe YOU DON'T KNOW and HAVE NOT DONE EVERYTHING.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Bill Morell on December 25, 2013, 06:49:05 PM
Why not just be more respectful of each other and simply agree to disagree?
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 25, 2013, 07:14:34 PM
The bold lines I added are just things I have always stated and then the bill Netzeban magic bullet is whipped out and I am shot down. I have always said what we do is complex. I was told and I quote it was basic. Well the magic bullet was put up for proof.



I was told centrifugal force need not be considered because of the hanging trick.

Since Isaac Newton discovered that an object pulled by a force tends to move in a straight line, we must apply another force to make that object move in a circle. This is called Centripetal Force, which you apply at the handle. There then exists an equal and opposite force to balance it called Centrifugal Force. (EQ 1) These two keep the circle round because, if unbalanced, like a broken line, the object heads back toward its straight line. The amount of centripetal force is determined by the weight of the airplane, the angular rate at which it moves around the circle, and the length of the lines. For our purposes we convert angular velocity to tangential velocity and call this the airplane speed (V) generally in miles per hour (mph).
 
By convention, we make lines to a length which will give standard distance from handle to airplane centerline. The center of gravity (CG) of the airplane is very close to center­line, so we now state that airplane speed (V) is that of CG. To simplify matters let's assume the Thrust of the prop passes through the CG. This done we could throwaway the airplane and use a dimensionless lump, same weight, at the CG. If it were possible to mount the bellcrank pivot exactly on the CG and the load of each line didn't change (it does) we could fly without a line guide


My thoughts
Remember this all changes as we go from up to down in a hemispherical line


"Basic Physical Facts: This installment covers a phenomenon not recognized in any other branch of science, at least not in books I've been able to read. So we had to develop our solution. We tie our airplane to a handle, pick up that handle and stand there while the airplane zooms around us. The physical reactions caused by moving a body (object) in a hemispherical plane, supported by thin flexible lines, with motive power applied at the object, are unique to CL airplanes."


Then I was told you can mount it anywhere. but in the next sentence he states  It should be reemphasized that bell crank pivot should be close to the CG

Now he feels the load he feels in the handle is the steep angle and friction. "I believe its the force by the centrifugal force that I was told does not exist. Thus the faster you fly the more nose heavy it feels.

But heck after being told I know nothing Maybe I don't but I will continue to think the way I do and build the airplanes with as close to inline  CG.LO.BC and tip weight as possible.


For the JCT
Here is how it goes
The Bellcrank woes

Place the bell crank where you like
there is no need to fight
you will find out if its wrong or right.
the first snap turn of the square
you will know you are there.

One blip of down
it will chase you around.
If its ahead of the CG
makes no difference to me.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: BillLee on December 25, 2013, 09:31:25 PM
....

Then I was told you can mount it anywhere. but in the next sentence he states  It should be reemphasized that bell crank pivot should be close to the CG
...

Robert, you can cherry-pick words all you want, take them out of context, and delete my posts that point that out. But the bottom line is Netzeband said:

"The bellcrank can be almost anywhere in the airplane."

 and then later said

"It should be reemphasized that bell crank pivot should be close to the CG, to reduce the bending at the line-guide which can cause stiff controls."

You can't take the "close the the CG" part without the "to reduce the bending at the line-guide which can cause stiff controls" part, which has been the point that many, many have made before.

O.k.: this is not in any way argumentative. Neither was the first response I made, which you apparently deleted.

Oh, well......
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: BillLee on December 25, 2013, 09:31:49 PM
Robert, you can cherry-pick words all you want, take them out of context, and delete my posts that point that out. But the bottom line is Netzeband said:

"The bellcrank can be almost anywhere in the airplane."

 and then later said

"It should be reemphasized that bell crank pivot should be close to the CG, to reduce the bending at the line-guide which can cause stiff controls."

You can't take the "close the the CG" part without the "to reduce the bending at the line-guide which can cause stiff controls" part, which has been the point that many, many have made before.

O.k.: this is not in any way argumentative. Neither was the first response I made, which you apparently deleted.

Oh, well......
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 25, 2013, 09:36:50 PM
Why instead of trying to be little me contribute something anything. Show me what you have designed and built that works. All I get from a select few is grief. I didn't pick anything out. He wrote it exactly as posted. Read and understand what he has written.

A private message sent to me re posted with permission.

Start with, By the way, Windy has probably built 50 times more airplanes
than any of the people on this side of the fence and has no doubt learned 10 times what most of this clan has learned, especially when some of us build  an airplane perhaps every 5 years and more.  As noted, even the great Bill Nutzoband had to( make) and fly airplanes to analyze and verify the answers to questions he and others had about this subject.  Even though he is not a rocket scientist, Windy knows what he seen and felt many times over with the many changes in aircraft ( HE )
built.   P.S. Get the CLUE.

And to verify the clue look at Yatsinko's airplanes he's got it.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Howard Rush on December 25, 2013, 09:58:11 PM
Why not just be more respectful of each other and simply agree to disagree?

Because both Robert and Brett know that each other is dead wrong.

I have a background similar to Brett's, so I know how he would approach this kind of problem.  One starts with basic physical concepts proven experimentally hundreds of years ago and reproven continually in high school physics labs ever since.  He then models these concepts mathematically using models developed by Isaac Newton and subsequently used successfully to industrialize the world, travel into space, and stuff like that.  If Brett and a colleague don't both have the same understanding of a technical problem, they will sit down with a pencil and paper and figure it out from these basic principles.  One of them will then say, "Oh, I see." and they'll go on to the next problem.  Each problem is approached from scratch: "X said so" is not an adequate explanation.  In the case of the bellcrank location problem, they would draw a "free body diagram", which would give them the lowdown.  

I think that Sparky's way of looking at it is based on his being convinced by his own hands-on experimenting.  He is not convinced that we have correctly modeled reality.  In particular, I don't think he accepts: 1) that the center of gravity of a rigid body is determined by all the pieces of mass in the body and their distances from a point, 2) that for static cases, all the mass of a rigid body can be considered to be at the CG, and 3) that gravity can be used as a surrogate for acceleration due to control line tension.  I don't know how to justify those things, and I haven't seen anybody else here justify them, but they need to be accepted before any theoretical argument about how bellcranks hang is to be convincing.  

There's another misunderstanding involved, and that's that people who aren't trained in a technical discipline don't really know what it is that those who are know.  Two examples from aero engineering are how bellcranks hang and how wings make lift.  How bellcranks hang is freshman-level stuff, plus or minus a year.  On the other hand, probably most BSAE graduates don't understand how wings make lift.    
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 25, 2013, 10:05:22 PM
Howard re read and understand the magic bullet. There is more there than meets the eye. Read slowly.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Howard Rush on December 25, 2013, 10:11:45 PM
I do read slowly, but what's the bullet?
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 25, 2013, 10:18:14 PM
I do read slowly, but what's the bullet?

If you read the article. Bill had to build many airplanes to answer these questions that he had and many others had. Not hypothesize with some math equations that was not in any book he obviously read or knew of. So if the guy who wrote the magic bullet article thought he was close but didn't have the exact answers ( according to him) where do you get your exact answers?
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: wwwarbird on December 25, 2013, 10:18:29 PM
Please, children, GET OVER THIS CRAP!!!

 This whole ongoing finger pointing, flame throwing, personal wannabe fame claiming, "I know more than you", "I've built a bazillion airplanes", Windy or Netzeband or anyone else is absolute "CLPA GOD", the bellcrank has to be here, the plane has to be built this way or that way, or lighter or heavier, or it needs this or has to have that, or electric is the ONLY way anymore, or my OPINION is right because it's not your OPINION, Whaaah-Whaaah-Waaah, Blaaah-Fricking-Blaaah-Blaaah-Blaaah, has gotten to be TOTAL CRAP!!!

 FACE IT, GROW UP, AND ADMIT IT, everyone has their own personal preferences in how they want, or have the ability to make, their model perform. When it comes to chosen applications in our models 99.999999% of everything being argued about here is based on ones own PERSONAL PREFERENCE. If a guy wants to mount the effin' bellcrank one the nose or on the stab WHO CARES???!!! If you don't care for it that way, hey, Rocket Scientist, THEN DON'T DO IT THAT WAY!!!
 There is no ONE answer for anything or everything in this hobby that everyone will always agree with. If anyone here can't figure that out and deal with it, then it's a direct symptom of their own skull thickness. I have applied no science in that finding.

 Build what you like, the way you like, for yourself, and STOP the cry baby whining back and forth. And knock off the d--n "I didn't start it" or "I don't care how you do it" garbage too. A couple here would find out otherwise if they go back and honestly read their old posts and/or responses.

 Merry ------- Christmas. D>K
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: wwwarbird on December 25, 2013, 10:49:38 PM
Because both Robert and Brett know that each other is dead wrong.

I have a background similar to Brett's, so I know how he would approach this kind of problem.  One starts with basic physical concepts proven experimentally hundreds of years ago and reproven continually in high school physics labs ever since.  He then models these concepts mathematically using models developed by Isaac Newton and subsequently used successfully to industrialize the world, travel into space, and stuff like that.  If Brett and a colleague don't both have the same understanding of a technical problem, they will sit down with a pencil and paper and figure it out from these basic principles.  One of them will then say, "Oh, I see." and they'll go on to the next problem.  Each problem is approached from scratch: "X said so" is not an adequate explanation.  In the case of the bellcrank location problem, they would draw a "free body diagram", which would give them the lowdown.  

I think that Sparky's way of looking at it is based on his being convinced by his own hands-on experimenting.  He is not convinced that we have correctly modeled reality.  In particular, I don't think he accepts: 1) that the center of gravity of a rigid body is determined by all the pieces of mass in the body and their distances from a point, 2) that for static cases, all the mass of a rigid body can be considered to be at the CG, and 3) that gravity can be used as a surrogate for acceleration due to control line tension.  I don't know how to justify those things, and I haven't seen anybody else here justify them, but they need to be accepted before any theoretical argument about how bellcranks hang is to be convincing.  

There's another misunderstanding involved, and that's that people who aren't trained in a technical discipline don't really know what it is that those who are know.  Two examples from aero engineering are how bellcranks hang and how wings make lift.  How bellcranks hang is freshman-level stuff, plus or minus a year.  On the other hand, probably most BSAE graduates don't understand how wings make lift.    

 Very well put Howard. y1
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 25, 2013, 10:50:34 PM
What do you know Wayne? and who put you in charge? I just reposted what the GREAT WILD BILL wrote and there are a few who just like to argue with me. Well guess what it ain't my article its the magic Bullet that everyone refers to. If you think I am wrong don't read it there are over 100000 threads to read.

You will also notice I NEVER go to someone else's thread and say they are wrong but there are a few who follow me and tell me I am wrong.

If the bellcrank could be put anywhere it would be stated like that. Almost is NOT anywhere its almost.

al·most

/ôlˈmōst,ˈôlˌmōst/

adverb: almost

not quite; very nearly.
"he almost knocked Georgina over"


synonyms: nearly, (just) about, more or less, practically, virtually, all but, as good as, close to, near, not quite, roughly, not far from, for all intents and purposes; approaching, bordering on, verging on; informalpretty near, pretty nearly, pretty much, pretty well; literarywell-nigh, nigh on
"we're almost done with the attic"



Mount it anywhere you like.

Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Bill Morell on December 25, 2013, 11:02:07 PM
You did when you started this ridiculous argument again. I thought that this was why you had a debate zone? At least Wayne has a mature conclusion to this.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 25, 2013, 11:04:27 PM
Read the first page close. Its a repost of the original topic nothing more. Nothing added nothing subtracted. NOTHING!

Mount it anywhere you like.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 25, 2013, 11:07:45 PM
I guess from now on I will have to lock all threads I start and refer all questions to the engineers that like to tell me how to do things.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: wwwarbird on December 25, 2013, 11:08:48 PM
What do you know Wayne? and who put you in charge?

 I don't know everything. I'll also admit it, anytime.

 I do know enough though to realize that this ongoing battle about what should or should not be applied in our model designs is primarily opinion based and will never, ever, be completely agreed to by everyone. It's the people that can't figure that simplicity out, and continue to beat their heads and flat-out argue about it, that I can't figure out.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 25, 2013, 11:12:33 PM
Its a reposting of his article but some want to come on here and bash me for posting it. Its not my words. No one can leave it alone because I posted it.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: wwwarbird on December 25, 2013, 11:17:03 PM

 I'm gonna go back downstairs and do some more sanding.  D>K
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Serge_Krauss on December 25, 2013, 11:27:24 PM
More ridiculous meandering!

First and most important is that several us - and that includes ME - have time after time mentioned EVERY darned thing highlighted by Robert in stating the other considerations that make certain bellcrank positions slightly better than others, and NOT ONE   of these considerations compromises the basic fact that the position of the bell crank in NO WAY affects the aerodynamic response of an airplane, nor does it in any way affect how the basic weight, radial, aerodynamic drag and lift forces affect it. We have all  mentioned the friction, wear, and structural considerations- ad infinitem, it seems.

Second is that IF this fact is untrue, then the natural laws that have governed all engineering progress are fractured, and many things that work would not do so. That is not because inverses are logically equivalent (they are not), but because contrary laws would have to be true and would mess up a lot of things we've found to work.

Third is that the laws that forbid the bell crank position to make a dynamic difference are extremely common-sense laws. Many things would cease to make sense, were these laws not to hold. There is no hocus pocus involved. This simple fact is determined by straight application of Newton's three basic laws of motion, with no embelishment.

SO let's stop bickering about whether the Earth is flat. This is neither rocket science, nor the product of any appeal to authority. It's simple common sense and logical thinking based on common sense and proven laws of nature, as well as something demonstrated too many times by simple experiment.  It is neither fair, logical, nor productive to claim that because there are other considerations like structure and friction, that a basic principle is wrong, nor is it right in any way to state or imply that well-meaning people who generously give of their time to try to help others understand what is really happening have said things that they manifestly have not said.

Some things are NOT rightly matters of opinion, and it is indeed harmful to encourage people to believe in false principles simply because good rules of thumb have been developed for very standard configurations. Howard has told the truth, but one should be careful not to see it as rhetoric or compromise. If you want to know how a plane really works, go to Howard, Igor, or Brett. They may disagree on some things, but not the basics, and like any true engineers and scientists, humility in the face of nature is their first principle. Don't confuse arrogance with assuredness based on assiduous study, itself based on the discoveries the all-time giants in research and learning.

SO...I'll have to disagree with one other post here. When knowledge is distorted, it is neither petty nor argumentative to try to rectify that. Truth is important and profitable to know. Somewhere along the line, even the most innocent looking falsehood can have dire consequences. I repeat: this stuff is not based on "formulas"; "formulas" are based on this stuff. It is worth knowing and understanding.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 25, 2013, 11:29:26 PM
Mount them anywhere you like but I can surely feel it ,if its in the wrong spot and that's all that counts. Its all about the feel.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Tim Wescott on December 25, 2013, 11:31:11 PM
Its a reposting of his article but some want to come on here and bash me for posting it. Its not my words. No one can leave it alone because I posted it.

No one is bashing you for reposting it, Robert.  People are pointing out that the conclusions that you're drawing from it are opposite of what it, itself, says.

If you're feeling bashed and put-upon by engineers, I suggest that you go work for a real engineering organization for a while and see how we treat each other.  "Nice" isn't keeping your mouth shut when someone is in error.  "Nice" is pointing out the error as early and comprehensively as possible.  Pointing out such errors, early and comprehensively, is not "bashing".  It is helping, and helping in a huge way.  If it isn't keeping your name from being attached to some error that cost the company huge bucks, it's keeping your name from being attached to some error that killed someone.  In Brett's case, it may be keeping your name from being attached to the technical glitch that started world war III (I'm glad I don't have Brett's job).

So you can take it for the bashing that it isn't, or the favor that it is -- your choice.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Tim Wescott on December 25, 2013, 11:33:28 PM
but I can surely feel it and that's all that counts.

Howard gave you a perfectly good, scientifically sound explanation for why you can feel it.  His explanation in no way contradicted your reported physical evidence, nor questioned your experimental technique. 

All it did was contradict your explanation of why what you felt happened.

You rejected it.

Why?
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Howard Rush on December 25, 2013, 11:34:51 PM
If you read the article. Bill had to build many airplanes to answer these questions that he had and many others had. Not hypothesize with some math equations that was not in any book he obviously read or knew of. So if the guy who wrote the magic bullet article thought he was close but didn't have the exact answers ( according to him) where do you get your exact answers?

I don't particularly like Netzeband's article, but it looks like the experimenting was to validate the basic leadout position calculation, maybe to check the drag coefficients or to see if he'd missed anything big.  The nomographs aren't there, but my guess is that they show no experimental correction to the simple calculation.   The article suffers from excessive hype: no, it is nothing new to Science, nor did it require all the purported work to do.  The main work was probably in making the nomographs.  They were pretty cool at the time, but we have computers now that make the calculation trivial.

The "exact answers" question is a good one.  We tend to make simplifying assumptions, for which a calculation gives exact answers.  Whether a set of simplifying assumptions is valid is subject to scrutiny.  The assumptions for the leadout position calculation that Netzeband mentioned, as I recall, that would lead to inexact answers were that the leadouts were perfectly flexible and that airplane aerodynamic forces and moments were negligible.  Although the nomographs are missing, I'll bet that bellcrank position doesn't appear as an input, because he assumed that it doesn't matter.  Equivalently, he could have assumed that the bellcrank was on the CG and that airplane aerodynamic forces and moments are negligible.  I don't know which he did.  

As far as I can tell without the nomographs or equations, what this Netzeband article does is to calculate leadout position at zero wind and with the above assumptions.  I think Bob Reeves's program, http://www.tulsacl.com/Linelll.html , does this better and without the hype.  The program is great for those who just want to calculate leadout position.  For those who want to see proof of the method, he includes Pete Soule's great paper.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 25, 2013, 11:39:13 PM
Well in my limited knowledge of model aircraft I NEVER plotted CG by lead out or bell crank location. I always used a percentage of the root cord. But like you said I know nothing.

One question? How can you accurately calculate anything when everything changes from line to line and attitude to AOA while flying in a hemisphere? (edit: I forgot to add the changing wind) Someone has some x-ray vision and a super computer for a brain.

Face it its just a SWAG.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Howard Rush on December 25, 2013, 11:57:38 PM
Well in my limited knowledge of model aircraft I NEVER plotted CG by lead out or bell crank location. I always used a percentage of the root cord.

That's what I'd do, too.   I'd decide where to put the CG relative to the wing chord, then pick a leadout guide range and bellcrank location.  To be more precise, I'd put the CG where Paul Walker said to put it, then pick a leadout range, then pick a bellcrank size, throw, and location that gives the right control geometry and minimizes the swath the leadouts make in the wing without putting the bellcrank too far from the CG.  My bellcrank is pretty far behind the CG on my current and next dogs, hence my interest in getting some really smooth leadout wire. 
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 26, 2013, 12:03:32 AM
After reading and thinking on this thread I have decided to build a test bed that will allow the movement of the bellcrank not to hang but to fly. So we can put this to bed. I hope to have it ready by next contest for anyone to fly. Being able to move the bellcrank from in front of the cg to way aft should be a eye opener.

It will be a basic airplane with a solid wing (I have a solid foam Geo wing) and bellcrank located on the top. Anyone can fly it and report what you feel. FEEL FEEL FEEL

I can tell you this it will be UN trimable in the extremes. I guess I should make it electric to illustrate the Brick effect as well. I am sure it will be interesting with the brick trying to line up with everything else.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Howard Rush on December 26, 2013, 12:11:45 AM
One question? How can you accurately calculate anything when everything changes from line to line and attitude to AOA while flying in a hemisphere? (edit: I forgot to add the changing wind) Someone has some x-ray vision and a super computer for a brain.

Face it its just a SWAG.

That is a good question, too.  I've calculated leadout position for flying level in a wind, but doing it for the upper left corner of a square eight in the wind is too hard for me.  Even calculating the optimal tip weight for different places on the hemisphere is complicated.  Throw in a bunch of engine offset and it's just a SWAG.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 26, 2013, 12:15:50 AM
Throw in a bunch of engine offset and it's just a  CLP** SWAG. CLP**
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Howard Rush on December 26, 2013, 12:19:55 AM
After reading and thinking on this thread I have decided to build a test bed that will allow the movement of the bellcrank not to hang but to fly. So we can put this to bed. I hope to have it ready by next contest for anyone to fly. Being able to move the bellcrank from in front of the cg to way aft should be a eye opener.

It will be a basic airplane with a solid wing and bellcrank located on the top. Anyone can fly it and report what you feel. FEEL FEEL FEEL

Good idea.  I was wondering how to deal with the pushrod length problem.  Maybe use one of those electrical connectors at the elevator control horn like the Ukrainian F2Ds have.  To keep the CG put, you could move a chunk of ballast the weight of the bellcrank, pushrod, and half the leadouts forward whenever you moved the bellcrank the same distance aft.  
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Serge_Krauss on December 26, 2013, 12:29:23 AM
While it may work for a pretty standard configuration and standard adjustments, we shouldn't oversimplify without understanding something of the limits. The cg is positioned relative to where the lift of the entire aircraft is centered (and our personal control-sensitivity preferences). That aero center includes the tail, but rules of thumb allow a pretty good estimate of its position relative to the wing's aerodynamic center. This is necessary for longitudinal stability to be set. IOW, the cg position is placed relative to lift and not leadouts or rudder angles; they are instead placed relative to the longitudinal cg position.

My problem with what has been said is that using the root chord as an estimate increases error to a point where it can be potentially damaging. With wing sweep, usually inherent in wings with straight hinge lines and swept leading edges, the a.c. is behind where you'd get it by using the root chord as a basis. The tail makes it even further back. George Aldrich's plans for his highly-tapered "Magnum," with a more extremely swept leading edge, indicate that he missed by a mile. He had found his plane to fly badly and later had drawn in leadouts actually passing through the wing's leading edge to compensate. Drawn-in additions dated a year later showed a longer tail and shorter nose, equivalent to moving the wing forward about an inch. I don't know what route later builders used, but it's obvious that their cg's were further aft, and their planes flew satisfactorily.

We make a lot of estimates, but I think you should take the time to make a better one, just on general principles. If you know what works well on your own general design, that's fine, but if you try something with more sweep (either direction), then you shouldn't use the root choord with your normal adjustments for it.

SK
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Howard Rush on December 26, 2013, 12:38:53 AM
Serge is right.  Actually, I use distance forward of the flap hinge.  I always use an Impact wing, so there's no reason to translate to %MAC each time. 
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Steve Thomas on December 26, 2013, 12:57:36 AM
Back in the days before we thought this was all settled, Paul Turner (a many-times Australian Nats winner) built a model with the bellcrank back near the tailplane, but the leadouts in the usual place. I gather it flew quite normally, and proved the point he was trying to make.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Tim Wescott on December 26, 2013, 01:07:19 AM
Good idea.  I was wondering how to deal with the pushrod length problem.  Maybe use one of those electrical connectors at the elevator control horn like the Ukrainian F2Ds have.  To keep the CG put, you could move a chunk of ballast the weight of the bellcrank, pushrod, and half the leadouts forward whenever you moved the bellcrank the same distance aft.  
If you're not trying to have working flaps, then just make up a bunch of different elevator pushrods of different lengths, to match whatever stations you can install the bellcrank at.

For that matter, if you do have working flaps, then instead of doing the usual bellcrank -> flap -> elevator linkage, go bellcrank -> elevator -> flap.

To really be conclusive you probably want to correct for the geometry change that Howard cited -- this could probably be safely neglected in a no-flap plane until the bellcrank was quite close to the elevator.  Ditto for a bellcrank -> elevator -> flap setup.  But the usual bellcrank -> flap -> elevator already has some pretty severe side-effects from the control geometry (as, no doubt, Howard's spreadsheet calculates) that would only get more severe as the bellcrank approaches the flap.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Igor Burger on December 26, 2013, 03:46:10 AM
Ballancing line drag by CG position front of LO guide is perfect idea, but I affraid perfect only for speed and team racers ... what will happen if I fly overhead, gravity will lower the CG pull, line drag will be realtively stronger and model nose will look to me standing down on ground  VD~ ... something goes wrong here  ~^
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Trostle on December 26, 2013, 05:59:35 AM
After reading and thinking on this thread I have decided to build a test bed that will allow the movement of the bellcrank not to hang but to fly. So we can put this to bed.

It has already been done and I have reported it several times on these endless threads regarding the bellcrank position.

American Modeler, July 1966.  Walter Williamson wrote an article titled "Case of the Wandering Bellcrank" where he constructed a sport plane, no flaps, looks like about a .35 for power, straight non-tapered wing with something over 48" span.  Controls were mounted externally so that he could put the bellcrank in nine different places from six inches in front of the CG to ten inches in back.  On the wing tip, he moved the lead outs to 11 positions, five in front of the CG and six in back.  The range of these leadouts were from in front of the wing LE to behind the wing TE.

Different leadout positions affected the amount of line pull felt at the handle and the speed of the model (duh!!).

With any given leadout position, he found it makes no difference where the bellcrank is located.  "What matters is where the leadouts exit through the guide plate."

It will certainly be interesting to see if a test plane with different bellcrank positions in 2014 will show the same results as the article fromn 1966.

I hope this post is not deleted like my previous post evidently was.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: James_Mynes on December 26, 2013, 06:19:14 AM
I don't have time for this hurt feelings fest. I'm going flying. Now, where's my U-reely...
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Bob Reeves on December 26, 2013, 07:13:10 AM
After reading and thinking on this thread I have decided to build a test bed that will allow the movement of the bellcrank not to hang but to fly. So we can put this to bed. I hope to have it ready by next contest for anyone to fly. Being able to move the bellcrank from in front of the cg to way aft should be a eye opener.

Been done more than a few times, our own Joe Gilbert put together a UKEY that he could place the bellcrank on the CG, way aft and way forward, think he made 3 pushrods. He brought it out to field and flew it with the bellcrank in all 3 positions. Don't think I need to repeat what his conclusions were.

Love this thread, it's entertaining.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: john e. holliday on December 26, 2013, 08:04:33 AM
I hope this don't turn into the boy with the bat story.  He couldn't play the position he wanted, so he took the bat and went home.  No more baseball according to him.  But, how many remember stick ball?   I had fewer tell me a canard will not do the pattern, but it  does.   May not be a NATS style pattern, but it does it, I have witnesses. S?P
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 26, 2013, 08:04:45 AM
Ballancing line drag by CG position front of LO guide is perfect idea, but I affraid perfect only for speed and team racers ... what will happen if I fly overhead, gravity will lower the CG pull, line drag will be realtively stronger and model nose will look to me standing down on ground  VD~ ... something goes wrong here  ~^

Igor gets it.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Scott Hartford on December 26, 2013, 08:39:08 AM
If you like your bellrank position, you can keep your bellcrank position. Period.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 26, 2013, 08:56:33 AM
Let me say this while putting it anywhere will work. My SWAG is putting it in one spot will work in one state of trim. Moving it the airplane will have to be re trimmed for optimal flight. So my question is if you have to re trim it does is make a difference? Maybe this will get the point across, maybe not.

Because the airplanes wing has only one optimal spot. As has been stated there is no formulas for flying in a hemisphere at changing speeds, wind directions and AOA.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Don Curry AMA 267060 on December 26, 2013, 09:28:34 AM
now let us move on to the BOM debate




Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Dave_Trible on December 26, 2013, 09:40:05 AM
Next one with the Walker Cup wins!

Dave
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 26, 2013, 09:49:01 AM
Nonsense.

I guess I wont have to re trim it judging from your experience
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: SteveMoon on December 26, 2013, 10:10:17 AM
Sparky: Why do you give a s**t what others think about where you mount your
bellcrank? Do whatever you want. If it makes you happy and you are satisfied
with the results then that's all that really matters.

Later, Steve
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 26, 2013, 10:13:09 AM
I don't care I just re posted verbatim Bills writings. The peanut gallery started bashing.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Doug Moon on December 26, 2013, 12:00:54 PM
I don't care I just re posted verbatim Bills writings. The peanut gallery started bashing.

You knew if you posted the article this very thread would happen.

History, and a ton of other threads about this same topic, for the past several years
tells us when posts are made stating BC position matters or doesn't matter there will
be endless arguments about it.

The conclusion we have some too over the years is some say it doesn't matter and some say it does.
Ok.
Neither are changing their minds about it.
So, with that in mind, what is the point of this thread?

Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 26, 2013, 12:02:07 PM
Doug you said you never read it. So I posted it for you.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 26, 2013, 04:23:46 PM
I will not lock this, I will just delete any ignorant responces .
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Steve Helmick on December 26, 2013, 07:09:43 PM
I will not lock this, I will just delete any ignorant responses.
 Fixed it for ya...

Robert, I think you're actually very close to doing what everybody does, in actuality. Including Ted and Brett. However, if you're going to mount the BC at the CG, you really should figure out where the CG should be relative to the entire wing, not just the root chord. There are various ways to get it done; some don't even require much math at all. As I see it, what you're doing could just as well be done by TLAR. Everybody is going to be adjusting CG and LO locations to make it work, but the engineering staff is merely trying to get closer before the flying and adjusting begins. I doubt if moving the BC location 1/2" fore or 1/2" aft (of the CG) would be noticeable at the handle.  H^^ Steve
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Mark Scarborough on December 26, 2013, 07:42:46 PM
If you're not trying to have working flaps, then just make up a bunch of different elevator pushrods of different lengths, to match whatever stations you can install the bellcrank at.

For that matter, if you do have working flaps, then instead of doing the usual bellcrank -> flap -> elevator linkage, go bellcrank -> elevator -> flap.

To really be conclusive you probably want to correct for the geometry change that Howard cited -- this could probably be safely neglected in a no-flap plane until the bellcrank was quite close to the elevator.  Ditto for a bellcrank -> elevator -> flap setup.  But the usual bellcrank -> flap -> elevator already has some pretty severe side-effects from the control geometry (as, no doubt, Howard's spreadsheet calculates) that would only get more severe as the bellcrank approaches the flap.

if the flaps were driven off the elevators, a person could make the elevator bellcrank pushrod different lenghts, without having to change the elevator flap pushrod,, given they are rigid enough not to introduce issues there
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Mark Scarborough on December 26, 2013, 07:46:16 PM
I guess I wont have to re trim it judging from your experience
assuming it is in proper trim to start with, I think the answer is no you wont
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Tim Wescott on December 26, 2013, 08:47:54 PM
if the flaps were driven off the elevators, a person could make the elevator bellcrank pushrod different lenghts, without having to change the elevator flap pushrod,, given they are rigid enough not to introduce issues there

That's what I was thinking.  And it wouldn't change the flap/elevator behavior as you played around with bellcrank position, and until you had the bellcrank halfway to the tail it wouldn't change the bellcrank/elevator behavior, either.

So, for the purposes of Sparky's experiment it would isolate any center of gravity effects from any jommetry-changing effects.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: M Spencer on December 26, 2013, 08:57:06 PM
This isnt a debate then .  VD~ S?P
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: wwwarbird on December 26, 2013, 10:26:07 PM
Let me say this while putting it anywhere will work. My SWAG is putting it in one spot will work in one state of trim. Moving it the airplane will have to be re trimmed for optimal flight.

 True, that is why we use adjustable leadouts.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Trostle on December 26, 2013, 11:51:34 PM

Let me say this while putting it anywhere will work. My SWAG is putting it in one spot will work in one state of trim. Moving it the airplane will have to be re trimmed for optimal flight.

 

Well, you have made it clear that your statement here is your opinion and your understanding of these toy airplanes of ours.

However, just to explain the other point of view  -- If there were two identical models, same weight, same power, same CG location, and the position of the leadouts are in the same location but the bellcrank in each is in a different location - either vertically or longitudinally or laterally or any combination of these positional components and the one airplane will "work in one state of trim", the other model will "work" and "feel" the same without any need to be "re trimmed for optimal flight".  So sayeth those who understand these things and also who understand how to construct a force diagram that illustrates all pertinent factors.

One thing to consider regarding IC engines where the weight of the full fuel tank may represent as much as 6% (maybe more or less) of the total weight at the beginning of a flight that is consumed during the flight and the fuel tank is generally somewhere between the engine and the CG, there will be no optimal leadout position for the entire flight.  Rather, the leadout position for a "well trimmed" stunt ship is a compromise to give the "best" "performance" (however one wishes to define "best" and "performance" or even "feel") throughout the entire flight.

Indeed, Bill Netzeband discussed bellcrank and CG positions in the article quoted at the beginning of this thread.  In another article in American Modeler, October 1962, Netzeband states that the "bellcrank has no effect on locating the CG.  Rather the bellcrank should be on the CG to prevent binding...  CG will always fall in line with the center of the line lead-out spacing during flight.  Locate hour leadouts relative to the CG to produce desired yaw angle for proper tug.....Next time a guy tell you to locate your CG forward of the BC or in front of the lead out, shun him.  He don't know the facts.  The CG comes first. all else is related to it.""

I think it only fair to further quote some more of Netzeband's writings since this entire thread was initiated with a rather lengthy Netzeband quote that in some places in this thread has been misconstrued to mean something else.  Yes, anyone can have their own opinion on this matter, but Netzeband's writings should not be twisted contrary to what he wrote.

Now, how long will this post be allowed to remain on this thread.  (I have now had my posts removed from this forum by two of the forum's best.)

Keith
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 27, 2013, 12:20:47 AM
This will not be removed because it was not a Smart A response it was your thoughts.

Next time a guy tell you to locate your CG forward of the BC or in front of the lead out, shun him.  He don't know the facts.  The CG comes first. all else is related to it.""


OK Try the bellcrank ahead of the CG let me know your findings. All I have tried to get across is if it makes no difference why does he make statements like ALMOST and CG because it doesn't make any difference? If it made no difference why didn't he say just that?

Once again I don't care where anyone mounts them, Its a reposting of his writings not mine.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Serge_Krauss on December 27, 2013, 01:04:33 PM
Next time a guy tell you to locate your CG forward of the BC or in front of the lead out, shun him.  He don't know the facts.  The CG comes first. all else is related to it.""


OK Try the bellcrank ahead of the CG let me know your findings. All I have tried to get across is if it makes no difference why does he make statements like ALMOST and CG because it doesn't make any difference? If it made no difference why didn't he say just that?

The bold face quote is meant to convey the principle that one should not "choose" a CG position to suit BC or LO positions. The CG is located solely for stability considerations and relates to the aerodynamic center (ac) of the whole apparatus only. First you create the stable plane, locating the CG where it must be located in order for the plane to fly controllably, with th desired degree of stability. Then you locate all controls and mechanisms to accomplish their functions without causing other problems (like unwanted yaw and roll).

"Almost" refers to those other things we've mentioned so often: control friction and wear, structural strength.

I believe that some here who think some of these things are just a matter of opinion should read carefully what Howard said, rather than skimming over it and "interpreting" it. Take it literally. You'll see that a couple interpretations implied by later posts haven't quite gotten his points. Tim also said that feel comes from other effects. Finally, as all seem to agree, forces change throughout a flight. We choose the best compromise trim. However, this does not change the basic point  about the bellcrank position. The balances of forces that control the plane are independent of it. The CF is not, and you'd better build the bellcrank post robustly enough. Don't confuse these things.

SK
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Tim Wescott on December 27, 2013, 01:29:19 PM
Tim also said that feel comes from other effects.

Tim only said that first in this thread, and does not wish to take credit where it is not due.  Howard was the one who pointed it out in another thread; it came as an epiphany to me: http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=33674.msg339076#msg339076 (http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=33674.msg339076#msg339076).
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Tim Wescott on December 27, 2013, 01:37:56 PM

<snip>

However, just to explain the other point of view  -- If there were two identical models, same weight, same power, same CG location, and the position of the leadouts are in the same location but the bellcrank in each is in a different location - either vertically or longitudinally or laterally or any combination of these positional components and the one airplane will "work in one state of trim", the other model will "work" and "feel" the same without any need to be "re trimmed for optimal flight".  So sayeth those who understand these things and also who understand how to construct a force diagram that illustrates all pertinent factors.

<snip>


What Keith said, except you have to carefully control for other things that may change with changed bellcrank location.  Given Howard's comment, I suspect the biggest culprit is changes in control system geometry.

Here's my stronger, shorter version:

If all else is equal -- weight, strength, friction and the exact relationship between line motion and surface motion, etc. -- then where the bellcrank is mounted relative to the CG cannot make a difference.

Not "does not".  "Can not".  Not without violating the laws of physics.  Rearranging the internal controls without changing any of the external qualities of the airplane cannot change the way it flies unless magic is involved, and the laws of physics rule out magic.

The fact that -- per various people's experiments -- moving the bellcrank does seem to make a difference can only mean that one or more of that "all else" must not be equal when you move the bellcrank position.  Like Howard*, I suspect it's the control system geometry that's either changing the flap to elevator relationship, or possibly that's changing the degree to which the controls tend to self-center under line tension.  I doubt that its friction.

* http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=33674.msg339076#msg339076 (http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=33674.msg339076#msg339076)
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 27, 2013, 01:41:57 PM
Give it a brake
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Serge_Krauss on December 27, 2013, 04:09:52 PM
It's interesting to me that the most recent posts have answered a direct question and clarified something entirely missed by everyone, but the only thing anyone found significant about them, and that includes by the person who actually asked the question, is that something has been posted about a subject they no longer want to hear about, but continue to harp about themselves. Well, I have good news for you. I'm outta here. If you don't care about what's been said, then you'll be relieved. If you really want to understand something about which you are unclear, then you'll actually read the posts for understanding and invest a little effort. Christmas leftovers await, but no visit to this thread again. Thanks for the ride.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Trostle on December 27, 2013, 05:50:32 PM
What Keith said, except you have to carefully control for other things that may change with changed bellcrank location.  Given Howard's comment, I suspect the biggest culprit is changes in control system geometry.

Here's my stronger, shorter version:

If all else is equal -- weight, strength, friction and the exact relationship between line motion and surface motion, etc. -- then where the bellcrank is mounted relative to the CG cannot make a difference.


Tim,

I know we are beating a dead horse here.  And you did a nice job of expressing what I was trying to say. I agree, you cannot move the position of the single bellcrank, all else being the same, without changing, even minutely, something in the control response because the geometry of the control system is changed.  Even if that single bellcrank is moved is very small increments, the angles of the pushrod/pushrods from the bell crank to the control horn/s change.   Thus there will be a change in the "feel" of the airplane, not because of the change of the bellcrank position relative to the CG but due to the geometry of the pushrod/s, control horn/s and the single bellcrank.  This minute difference in feel will probably not be detected for small changes in bellcrank position.  However, the more the bellcrank position is changed, the more that control system geometry changes and the effect on control response will eventually manifest itself to a noticeable difference in "feel" of the model unless other "trim" changes are incorporated.

It is interesting in the Williamson article where he changed the bell crank position from 6 inches in front of the CG to 10 inches in back of the CG, he used two bellcranks mounted on the bottom side of the fuselage.  The one bellcrank that was moved to the various positions was connected to the leadouts to the inboard wing.  The second bellcrank was permanently attached to the fuselage for this test and connected to the elevators of this flapless test bed.  Different pushrod lengths were used between the two bellcranks for the difference in the distances between the two bellcranks.  This resulted in the geometry of the bellcrank/pushrod/elevator horn remaining constant throughout his test program.  And as has already been reported, there was no difference in the way the airplane flew.

Keith
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Shultzie on December 27, 2013, 06:32:21 PM
 LL~ H^^ R%%%%
Wonder why I keep getting A CARTOON VISION OF A CAVE MAN TWIRRRRLLING' AROUND AND AROUND A ROCK THAT IS TIED TO THE END OF A LONG SINGLE STRING VINE?
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Howard Rush on December 27, 2013, 06:40:04 PM
I was wondering how Windy got the notion that having the bellcrank in front of the CG is bad.  My hypothesis is that he took an airplane with the bellcrank at about 30% chord, then tried different CGs.  When the CG got behind the bellcrank, the plane got unstable.  Attributing this to CG position relative to the bellcrank seems to be a natural consequence of thinking that bellcrank location affects the airplane's dynamics or feel.     
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Brett Buck on December 30, 2013, 05:19:46 PM
Ballancing line drag by CG position front of LO guide is perfect idea, but I affraid perfect only for speed and team racers ... what will happen if I fly overhead, gravity will lower the CG pull, line drag will be realtively stronger and model nose will look to me standing down on ground  VD~ ... something goes wrong here  ~^

    This is where the subjective part comes in. The physics are unassailable, it's not a debatable point how the leadouts and bellcrank work, nor how the lines drag backwards. Bill's nomographs and LINEII tell the same story. There are some experimental results in the line drag equation, but it has proven out to be very close to right over the years in hundreds of cases.

    The subjective part is using the calculated line drag angle to set the leadout position. I think that's an ideal starting point that will let you get the rudder set to more-or-less neutral regardless of building variations. What anyone does with it beyond that is up to the pilot.

     Brett

     
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: FLOYD CARTER on December 30, 2013, 06:22:34 PM
On my next stunter, I'm not going to tell anyone just where the bellcrank is located. 

It's safer that way.

F.C.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Mark Scarborough on December 30, 2013, 09:23:33 PM
On my next stunter, I'm not going to tell anyone just where the bellcrank is located. 

It's safer that way.

F.C.
Floyd, you could mount it on the canopy,, that way you would not have to tell anybody
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Igor Burger on December 31, 2013, 02:27:32 AM
  The physics are unassailable, it's not a debatable point how the leadouts and bellcrank work, nor how the lines drag backwards.

Right, physic is not debatable but theories based on physic are  ;D And this is good example, that theory and the program are based on some presumptions, and if presumptions are not fullfilled, then theory could be proped, but its usage in such case is simply wrong, and this is clear example, this thery expects that the only aerodynamical forces are from line drag and forces to CG are only from centrifugal force. This is fullfulled only in case of speed models (or TR) flying in level, so the theory works well and also program is perfectly usefull in such case.

But stunt models have rudder, motor offset and we have also gravity since we fly also overhead, so while the thery and also programs are perfect tools, it usage on stunt model is simply wrong. Fortunately while that programe is not applicable its result still could be usefull (just because it is not applicable - measn the result could be also good   VD~ ... accidentally )

It is like misusing hammer and screwdriver, you can nail by screwdriver, and you can also convince screw by hammer, both will somehow work, but result is not always so perfect  >:D

And I also see difference between slovak and english here ... if my model falls from sky because it looks down while it flies overhead, I use word which my dictionary translates to "wrong" ... not "subjective" ... or may be I am wrong subject :- ))))))))))))))))))))))))   

(hey it is end of year, little bit joking is OK I hope :- ))))))) ... HNY )
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Doug Burright on December 31, 2013, 02:57:32 AM
This was kind of interesting...

I just built a 1/2A , A-7 Corsair II for another deal, and the plane is just a profile fuselage, with a flat wing. I maintained the scale outline fairly close - so that means the wing is significantly swept. I mounted the bellcrank pivot at about 1/4 of the root chord, but installed a leadout guide, far forward of the leading edge, because I felt that aft placement - where the wingtip is - wouldn't work. I wasn't sure why...but it just didn't look right. Now, it has a wire - with two little loops on it - sticking out, forward, from the inboard tip.

So... this thread started out as exactly the information that I needed to actually determine the optimum location for the control system on the A-7. Lots of the information provided is way above my pay-grade, but, I have yet to fly the plane, and see if my approximation will work. That's how I'm going to apply what I know about all of this. I'll keep you guys posted, too. This discussion has put another wrinkle in my gray matter.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Douglas Ames on December 31, 2013, 05:16:53 AM
This was kind of interesting...

I just built a 1/2A , A-7 Corsair II for another deal, and the plane is just a profile fuselage, with a flat wing. I maintained the scale outline fairly close - so that means the wing is significantly swept. I mounted the bellcrank pivot at about 1/4 of the root chord, but installed a leadout guide, far forward of the leading edge, because I felt that aft placement - where the wingtip is - wouldn't work. I wasn't sure why...but it just didn't look right. Now, it has a wire - with two little loops on it - sticking out, forward, from the inboard tip.

So... this thread started out as exactly the information that I needed to actually determine the optimum location for the control system on the A-7. Lots of the information provided is way above my pay-grade, but, I have yet to fly the plane, and see if my approximation will work. That's how I'm going to apply what I know about all of this. I'll keep you guys posted, too. This discussion has put another wrinkle in my gray matter.

Get with Bob Reeves on leadout/ bellcrank placement for a swept wing. He built a few FJ Furys for Carrier that fly great.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 31, 2013, 06:22:51 AM

It is like misusing hammer and screwdriver, you can nail by screwdriver, and you can also convince screw by hammer, both will somehow work, but result is not always so perfect  >:D


 LL~ I like this, this is engineering.  LL~
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Bob Reeves on December 31, 2013, 07:10:57 AM
Get with Bob Reeves on leadout/ bellcrank placement for a swept wing. He built a few FJ Furys for Carrier that fly great.

Carrier is a little different on bellcrank placement especially with a line slider. Bellcrank has to be well behind the CG, centrifugal force will move the leadouts when the slider is released. For the high speed leadout position I use LineIII and place them where it tells me. To find the MAC and CG I cheated and used an on-line calculator for a swept wing. End result worked great. No engineering other than make use of what others already had figured out.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: BillLee on December 31, 2013, 08:30:35 AM
I sure get the impression that some here think

"Engineering is to ignore physics."


Any "engineer" that ignores the "physics" of the problem may end up with a solution, but .... some expressions apply:

Kludge
Rube Goldberg
Unintended consequences
Unrepeatable unexplainable results
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 31, 2013, 09:08:29 AM
I sure get the impression that some here think
"Engineering is to ignore physics."

They are still working on gravity..  LL~

Physicist Questions Gravity's Existence

by Brian Thomas, M.S. *

Does gravity exist?

While few would deny that objects attract at-a-distance, some physicists are questioning whether or not this universally observed effect is caused by a stand-alone force called "gravity." The root causes of this well-established law are still not understood by science. If something this basic can be called into question, how should this affect one's confidence in other widely-held scientific claims like "evolution is a fact"?

In a landmark paper that is causing a stir in the world of theoretical physics, University of Amsterdam string theorist Erik Verlinde provided a totally new perspective for understanding the effect that has been called gravity. He is convinced that it is not an independent force at all.

If it's not, that would be good news for scientists such as famed cosmologist Stephen Hawking who have spent lifetimes trying in vain to merge the fundamental formulas that express gravity and electromagnetism into a single "theory of everything."

Instead, Verlinde posits that gravity results from objects that had been stretched apart from one another and are just relaxing back into more "comfortable" positions. In this view, "Newton's law of gravity emerges in a surprisingly simple fashion."1 He told The New York Times, "We've known for a long time gravity doesn't exist. It's time to yell it."2

Reactions to Verlinde's proposal provide an interesting contrast to the reception provided to certain others who've been willing to examine scientific presuppositions. In countless conversations around the world, people with sincere questions about evolution's particles-became-people story have been accused of being as ignorant as someone who would question gravity. Now, Verlinde has actually questioned gravity and yet is being treated to serious consideration rather than demeaning personal attacks.

The difference may be that those who have heard of Verlinde's pioneering work are actually thinking about what he has said, instead of dismissing it before even giving it a serious look. Some physicists believe that Verlinde's model is brilliant, while others admit they do not understand it or do not believe it will prove accurate. But in all cases, they are considering Verlinde's proposal.

The formulas used to defend his thesis are elegant and persuasive. In his paper--posted on a Cornell University website that houses technical papers and peer comments--Verlinde used the analogy of a long, loose strand with one end tethered to a fixed point to illustrate his concept that gravity is just a byproduct of thermodynamics.1

Imagine the strand so loose that its shape randomizes into something like a wadded-up spaghetti noodle. Then somebody gathers the wad and straightens out a portion of it by pulling it away from its attachment point. After it is let go, the strand randomizes again, its increasing crinkles causing it to shrink back toward the object to which it is attached. In a similar manner, the apparent force drawing objects together is just the effect of the space between those objects randomizing, curling up, and pulling inward.

His theory has already been applied by other physicists to successfully solve certain problems in physics.3 Whether or not gravity is an independent, fundamental force in the cosmos or just the consequence of thermodynamics, as Verlinde and a growing cadre of physicists are thinking, the fact that the basics of a phenomenon so universally observed as gravity are still being discussed seems remarkable in the face of all the bluster that science holds all the answers.

A physicist has provided a radical re-think on the fundamentals of gravity, accompanied by sound reason and solid observations. And physicists are listening. In a profession dedicated to finding accurate explanations, it should hold equally true that when a biologist provides a radical re-think of Darwinian origins--also accompanied by sound reason and solid observations--his or her case should also be heard.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Trostle on December 31, 2013, 10:12:57 AM
This was kind of interesting...

I just built a 1/2A , A-7 Corsair II for another deal, and the plane is just a profile fuselage, with a flat wing. I maintained the scale outline fairly close - so that means the wing is significantly swept. I mounted the bellcrank pivot at about 1/4 of the root chord, but installed a leadout guide, far forward of the leading edge, because I felt that aft placement - where the wingtip is - wouldn't work. I wasn't sure why...but it just didn't look right. Now, it has a wire - with two little loops on it - sticking out, forward, from the inboard tip.


Doug,

Let's take your example a step further and it may make your experience even more "interesting".  When you take your 1/2A Corsair, look at the chord at the mid span, half way from the fuselage to the tip.  Measure that chord and determine where the 20% position is.  This places what should be a good approximation of where your balance point is on the longitudinal axis of your model.  If your model flies well (like really stable), your actual balance point might be slightly ahead of that 20% position.  Now that you have determined the balance point on your longitudinal axis, at the inboard wing tip, a desirable center of your two leadouts would be around 3/4 inch" (maybe slightly less) behind that CG position assuming the span of your model is around  24 to 28 inches.  Depending on the LE sweep of your A-7, that would still likely put your leadouts slightly ahead of you tip LE.  (Notice, none of this has anything to do where you have the bellcrank mounted.)

Let us know what you find.

Keith
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 31, 2013, 10:19:11 AM
Once you find it fly's there, move that bell crank forward and inch in front of the CG and let us know you findings. Must be gravity  HB~>
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Derek Barry on December 31, 2013, 10:24:52 AM
I have not read through all of this topic. So, what exactly are you guys arguing about? Whether or not the bellcrank location has anything to do with trim and or flight performance? Sparky, are you saying that it DOES matter and the other guys are saying that it DOESN'T?

Just trying to see what all the hubbub is about.

Derek
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 31, 2013, 10:28:13 AM
 It don't mater.. Mount it on the rudder but please let us know how that worked out.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Mark Scarborough on December 31, 2013, 10:43:07 AM
Once you find it fly's there, move that bell crank forward and inch in front of the CG and let us know you findings. Must be gravity  HB~>
by his description,, the bellcrank is already ahead of the CG,, it its at 20% at the root,, the CG will be behind that because of the sweep
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 31, 2013, 10:58:06 AM
What I am getting at is mount it anywhere and move the leadouts to where it works best. Now move the bellcrank. If you have to re-trim the model It does make a difference. I am not sure why this concept is so hard to grasp.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Tim Wescott on December 31, 2013, 02:32:50 PM
I have not read through all of this topic. So, what exactly are you guys arguing about? Whether or not the bellcrank location has anything to do with trim and or flight performance? Sparky, are you saying that it DOES matter and the other guys are saying that it DOESN'T?

As far as I can tell the argument is over whether the bellcrank position relative to the CG is what matters or if what matters is the bellcrank position with respect to the other mechanical bits of the plane.

The engineers in the crowd seem to feel that toy airplanes are going to obey the same laws of physics as every other object in the known universe, and are trying to hold onto this point.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Serge_Krauss on December 31, 2013, 03:53:40 PM
What I am getting at is mount it anywhere and move the leadouts to where it works best. Now move the bellcrank. If you have to re-trim the model It does make a difference. I am not sure why this concept is so hard to grasp.

Holy Cow! What am I doing back here again?! Ah, well...

This would be a very good point, IF it were not for needing to configure the control horns to make the plane the new bellcrank position is servicing to be the same plane in which the original functioned. The change of position, as we've said all too often does influence leadout bend/friction, control geometry, and sometimes structure. As long as the flaps and elevators are working with the same motions and mechanical advantages, the bellcrank position can be wherever you want it. If you find a trim change, you'll be able to trace it to control changes, rather than where the bellcrank is. Fortunately, needed adjustments aren't complicated.

The post on gravity is interesting, and I doubt that any reasdonable scientist would not give it its due. For things like gravity, we've searched through numerous theories and models. Some are interpretable among themselves. There are often more than one way of modeling natural phenomena. Some involve what simplifying assumptions to choose, and some are matters of perspective. This article seems to be written by someone with an ax to grind; there really shouldn't be an argument, and that a new perspective or model has surfaced has absolutely no relevance to another theory describing phenomena and actions we see unfolding every day. I'm happy to read about it, but certainly do not see any reason for anyone to have allegedly been upset by it.

For Igor: surely it's complex, especially when we elevate the plane along the hemisphere. However, design and trim are a big set of compromises, and for a given aircraft, once that total compromise is chosen, you will have it, wherever that silly gadget is located.

SK
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Steve Helmick on December 31, 2013, 04:09:49 PM
What I am getting at is mount it anywhere and move the leadouts to where it works best. Now move the bellcrank. If you have to re-trim the model It does make a difference. I am not sure why this concept is so hard to grasp.

We're not sure why the concept is so hard to grasp either. There is certainly some point where the friction at the LO guide is going to be a big negative, but someday, somebody will invent a ball bearing leadout guide. Then, it won't matter (at all) where you put the bellcrank pivot.

Hang any model by the LO's and note the angle of the fuselage. Add 10 lbs at the CG, and note the angle of the fuselage. Add 10 pounds at 6" forward and 10 lbs at 6" aft of the CG at the same time. Report back.  y1 Steve
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Trostle on December 31, 2013, 04:25:17 PM
Once you find it fly's there, move that bell crank forward and inch in front of the CG and let us know you findings. Must be gravity  HB~>

Robert,

Looking forward to your findings (and by others) when you do your test bed that you said you will or might have at the Nats.  Unfortunately, I have other pressing things on my schedule in July so will not be able to witness what I think will be a total surprise to at least one individual, maybe more.

(Actually, he will be able to move the bellcrank several inches in either direction, assuming there is structure to do so and the experience will be the same.  There will be no difference in the way the airplane flies other than there may be a bit of a sluggish feel due to the friction (almost negligible) through the leadouts.  This has been tested and demonstrated before.)

Keith
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Tim Wescott on December 31, 2013, 05:15:08 PM
This would be a very good point, IF it were not for needing to configure the control horns to make the plane the new bellcrank position is servicing to be the same plane in which the original functioned.

So, use that English feller's 'lectronic bellcrank (what's his name??), a single leadout guide so that leadout jommetry doesn't mess things up (yes, a single leadout guide will cause other problems -- we're doing things in the name of science here!), and always point the center of the bellcrank toward the leadout guide, again so that we don't mess up the jommetry.

The electronics and bellcrank mount alone should be worth the price of admission.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Howard Rush on December 31, 2013, 05:19:57 PM
Once you find it fly's there, move that bell crank forward and inch in front of the CG and let us know you findings. Must be gravity  HB~>

Not that it would convince you of anything, but the airplane below operated nicely with the bellcrank in front of the CG.  I built it with the bellcrank at the standard Impact zero-fuel CG location.  This particular airplane flew best with the zero-fuel CG .3 to .4" aft of that, so the last quarter of the flight was with the bellcrank ahead of the CG.  
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 31, 2013, 05:45:24 PM
My point Howard exactly "This particular airplane flew best with the zero-fuel CG .3 to .4" aft of that" If it flew best there wouldn't it make sense to try and keep it where it fly's best? If it made no difference why would it fly best in one spot and not in another? Just think about it.

Now if it flew best there what would it have flown like behind the CG ? Should make no difference according to the physics right? It also means no trim changes. But if you had to make a trim change did it make a difference? Any added weight or movement of weight changes the airplane characteristics , So would it matter? I say yes! You say no.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 31, 2013, 05:57:23 PM
Robert,

Looking forward to your findings (and by others) when you do your test bed that you said you will or might have at the Nats.  Unfortunately, I have other pressing things on my schedule in July so will not be able to witness what I think will be a total surprise to at least one individual, maybe more.

(Actually, he will be able to move the bellcrank several inches in either direction, assuming there is structure to do so and the experience will be the same.  There will be no difference in the way the airplane flies other than there may be a bit of a sluggish feel due to the friction (almost negligible) through the leadouts.  This has been tested and demonstrated before.)

Keith

I will make it in the extremes so some not as sensitive as I can feel it. Normal position and 3 inches either way. Plane will be trimmed in the normal position and not changed in the others (AT ALL). If the ones who do get to fly the test bed can't feel it, I don't know what to tell you. But from the outside you will certainly see it in a hard corner. It will all try to line up with the centrifugal force applied by the hemispherical flight path. GRAVITY.  LL~

I know I will add a wiggly rudder to counter act this force. (Just a joke)

I think then people see the wing hinge most believe it all in the tip weight. Well my thoughts and findings its mis aligned Lead out's , tether , tip box locations. Anyone can think anything and put them anywhere. I just try to edge my bet.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Howard Rush on December 31, 2013, 06:19:43 PM
My point Howard exactly "This particular airplane flew best with the zero-fuel CG .3 to .4" aft of that" If it flew best there wouldn't it make sense to try and keep it where it fly's best? If it made no difference why would it fly best in one spot and not in another? Just think about it.

Now if it flew best there what would it have flown like behind the CG ? Should make no difference according to the physics right? It also means no trim changes. But if you had to make a trim change did it make a difference? Any added weight or movement of weight changes the airplane characteristics , So would it matter? I say yes! You say no.

I was refuting Windy's assertion that the bellcrank can't be ahead of the CG, which you were offering as evidence that bellcrank location affects something about how the airplane flies.  Everybody agrees that adding or moving weight changes both the airplane dynamics and the yaw angle for a given leadout position, which is what Netzeband and Line III calculate (for a given set of assumptions). 
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Steve Thomas on December 31, 2013, 06:31:26 PM
Just to extend the discussion: how about a hypothetical model with control horns extending above and below the flaps/elevators. Flexible leadouts enter the wing at the normal place, but are routed via hypothetical very-low-friction control runs, and attach directly to the control horns.  We then have a control system which works in the normal manner, but has no bellcrank at all.  Will the model still fly normally (considering we have hypothetical very-low-friction control runs)? What does this then say about the bellcrank/CG relationship?   ;)
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 31, 2013, 06:36:30 PM
I was refuting Windy's assertion that the bellcrank can't be ahead of the CG, which you were offering as evidence that bellcrank location affects something about how the airplane flies.  Everybody agrees that adding or moving weight changes both the airplane dynamics and the yaw angle for a given leadout position, which is what Netzeband and Line III calculate (for a given set of assumptions).  

In your case its not much ahead of the CG. The Mustang in the video was way more. The airplanes we fly have different forces applied than real aircraft. Who knows in your case it might ease the control load a small amount. I don't know and NO ONE knows for certain what is happening under a 10-15 G turn flying in a hemisphere in changing winds and loading from one line to the next.

It's as magical as building two airplanes exactly the same with the same power trains and them not flying exactly the same. Must be magic Voodoo sorcery or some mystical force you can't Pie times radius square .
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on December 31, 2013, 06:44:07 PM
Just to extend the discussion: how about a hypothetical model with control horns extending above and below the flaps/elevators. Flexible leadouts enter the wing at the normal place, but are routed via hypothetical very-low-friction control runs, and attach directly to the control horns.  We then have a control system which works in the normal manner, but has no bellcrank at all.  Will the model still fly normally (considering we have hypothetical very-low-friction control runs)? What does this then say about the bellcrank/CG relationship?   ;)

I would not want to try this because it would be tethered in a different location other than the center line of the airplane. These experiment's have been tried on Boom aircraft and it also has been found the tether location worked best in the center line of the plane. The worst place being mounted inboard of the first boom.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Dave_Trible on December 31, 2013, 07:07:03 PM
Just to extend the discussion: how about a hypothetical model with control horns extending above and below the flaps/elevators. Flexible leadouts enter the wing at the normal place, but are routed via hypothetical very-low-friction control runs, and attach directly to the control horns.  We then have a control system which works in the normal manner, but has no bellcrank at all.  Will the model still fly normally (considering we have hypothetical very-low-friction control runs)? What does this then say about the bellcrank/CG relationship?   ;)
This is not so hypothetical. Some of the very first controlline airplanes did just that.  However it was a way to worm around Jim Walker's bellcrank patent.  The lines ran through tubing with a large-radius 90 degree turn towards the tail.  The obvious problem was friction but nothing other than the lead out exit location would have mattered in regards to this discussion.  It's about CG/lead outs, not CG/ bellcrank.

Dave
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Howard Rush on December 31, 2013, 07:17:53 PM
The airplanes we fly have different forces applied than real aircraft.

Well, then, show us what they are.  Let's see a free-body diagram.  Same goes for you guys with the book learning.  Stop the dad gum arm waving.  Sum the forces, sum the moments.  
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Steve Helmick on December 31, 2013, 07:38:02 PM
I've been told ('cause I don't remember it) that my Dad built a CL plane in the early '50's with two ball bearing aircraft control cable pulleys installed roughly where the BC would have been. The leadouts went 'round the pulleys and anchored on top/bottom control horns at the elevator. The report I got was that it didn't work, but considering that the horns were probably no more than 1" long each, it would be extremely sensitive. Also, realize that the line tension loads would be directly onto those control horns...and thus the hinges...and stabalizer structure, it was obviously a plan doomed to failure. But it could have worked, if the control horns were 3" long (each), and the hinges and stabalizer structure had been up to the task. The "tether point" should have been a bit behind the CG, at the inboard wingtip, of course. Yeah, he had both mechanical and aero engineering degrees. Still apparently didn't see the problems beforehand. Live and learn.

There's no reason why the BC can't be mounted at the inboard tailboom on a "boomer", but it would require a pile more tipweight, a fact which may have overlooked back "in the day". After all, it was common to specify a certain amount of tipweight on plans and in kits, which we now know is poppycock. Don't we? Or, there may have been a misconception that the LO's should be a certain distance back from the BC pivot location? Who knows what concepts could have been "rule of thumb" 40 years ago? We obviously figured out that the LO's should be kinda close together at the tip, not 3" or 4" apart, right?

Things change, knowledge increases. That's the way it works, in engineering and mechanics. Think of it as you do hydraulic disc brakes. Progress!   y1 Steve
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Igor Burger on January 01, 2014, 08:41:26 AM
Just to extend the discussion: how about a hypothetical model with control horns extending above and below the flaps/elevators. Flexible leadouts enter the wing at the normal place, but are routed via hypothetical very-low-friction control runs, and attach directly to the control horns.  We then have a control system which works in the normal manner, but has no bellcrank at all.  Will the model still fly normally (considering we have hypothetical very-low-friction control runs)? What does this then say about the bellcrank/CG relationship?   ;)

my first indoor was exactly that, bellcrank was elevator horn with 2 arms and soft lines turned in LO guide to elevator ~45 degrees back ... nothing special, nothing strange during flight, no iill offsets ... even LO friction did not make too many probles as the lines were probably telon (or any other similar plastic) coated, worked well with speed type handle with small line distance, so also sensitivity was usefull :- )))
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: john e. holliday on January 01, 2014, 09:11:01 AM
Sparky, I think it is time to start ignoring this people that like to argue.   There is nothing like experience to learn something.   Dad always told me to learn from other people experience and save myself some grief.  So I build kits pretty close to what the instructions in  the box say with a few changes for my liking.  And when I scratch build I try to stay with what has worked.   But, you know we are probably both hard headed in that we keep trying to convince the few.  So let them learn by experimenting.   How do we think that Windy, Ted, Brett, yourself and a few others have learned.  We never know until we try. R%%%%
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on January 01, 2014, 09:17:23 AM
That's it Doc I don't really care who does what because most have not built enough planes to compare them side by side, back to back. Its hard to remember the effects when the planes are a few years apart.

So happy new year and MOUNT it ANYWHERE you wish it all works. Some places just feel better than others.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Trostle on January 01, 2014, 09:41:01 AM
Just to extend the discussion: how about a hypothetical model with control horns extending above and below the flaps/elevators. Flexible leadouts enter the wing at the normal place, but are routed via hypothetical very-low-friction control runs, and attach directly to the control horns.  We then have a control system which works in the normal manner, but has no bellcrank at all.  Will the model still fly normally (considering we have hypothetical very-low-friction control runs)? What does this then say about the bellcrank/CG relationship?   ;)

Actually, in the early days of tethered model airplane flight, this process where the lines were tied directly to the elevators as you describe was done.  The problem was the friction of the lines in the tubes that routed the lines from outside the inboard tip to the elevators.  (I have drawings somewhere.)  Then Jim Walker came around (maybe others) came along and gave us the bellcrank.  At least Jim Walker had a patent on the bellcrank concept.

Keith
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on January 01, 2014, 09:58:14 AM
This is a interesting point however point of tether is still not the wing tip on this configuration. I would be somewhere in the center radius of where the leadouts turned towards the tail. This would be a hard thing to trim in my opinion.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Ted Fancher on January 01, 2014, 10:35:35 AM
Robert,

Looking forward to your findings (and by others) when you do your test bed that you said you will or might have at the Nats.  Unfortunately, I have other pressing things on my schedule in July so will not be able to witness what I think will be a total surprise to at least one individual, maybe more.

(Actually, he will be able to move the bellcrank several inches in either direction, assuming there is structure to do so and the experience will be the same.  There will be no difference in the way the airplane flies other than there may be a bit of a sluggish feel due to the friction (almost negligible) through the leadouts.  This has been tested and demonstrated before.)

Keith
 

Although I'm in total agreement about the relationship between the CG and the leadout guides I can't go along with friction being the only result of simply moving the bellcrank fore or aftward.  There will be a distinct change in airplane response because the angular relationship between "driven arms" of the BC (where the leadouts attach) and the resultant geometric relationship of the driver arm (where the pushrod attaches) and, subsequently the relationship of the flaps and elevators to their respective partners...the wing and the stabilizer.

Say the BC is moved six inches aft and the leadout guide remains in the same relationship to the CG.  Yes, the body angle relative to the flight hemisphere will remain the same but the tension on the lines  (in level flight for ease of description) will be equal at both B/C arms and will attempt to "square up" the bell crank with the up line (conventional up/aft) will be pulled so that tension on both arms is equal and thus B/C will thus be rotated "X" degrees from its prior alignment with the longitudinal axis of the airplane.  Thus the old "neutral" handle setting will produce significant up elevator and level flight will require significant "down" input from the pilot to avoid loops, unless...

A new bellcrank would have to be drawn up and built that has the pushrod "driver" hole rotated CCW a number of degrees equal to the angle established by the B/C's leadout arms when equal tension is applied to both (i.e., level flight condition).  The flap and elevator horns would remain as before but the pushrod between the B/C and the flap horn would have to be shortened, of course.  With the redesigned B/C the required "Angular" control inputs for desired flight path results will be essentially identical to the conventional placement with the previous caveat regarding friction at the leadout guide.

Thus, I think it is safe to say that Sparky's contention that simply moving the bellcrank will result in a different "feel" is almost certainly accurate if the movement is a "significant" amount;  the reason for the change in feel will be only peripherally the result of that movement however.  The CG will continue to align itself with the point of tether.

I think...

Happy New Year everyone!

Ted

A short p.s.  Back when I was making circular bellcranks I did something similar to my above suggestion and "rotated" the pushrod driver holes of the bellcrank about three degrees clockwise to allow a 90 degree relationship between that arm and the flap horn.  This allowed for the required roughly two or three degrees of aft leadout location due to line drag.  The fact that the B/Cs were circular probably made that a "so what" feature but having the bellcrank technically configured to allow symmetrical component relationships had been a desire of mine from the time I started thinking about such stuff.  It would have been a much more "eureka" thing on a regular "T" shaped crank.  After replacing circular cranks with the, by then, common four inch CF ones, in the Imitation and Excitation due to worn bearings I couldn't feel any significant difference and have pretty much just gone with conventional production cranks ever since.  Just because it doesn't seem to make any difference, however, doesn't mean that there isn't some rational validity to the concept...or not n1 y1 n1 y1
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on January 01, 2014, 10:51:53 AM
Ted thanks for explaining this. Only one thing is left out. With a long enough leaver you could move the world. This is in the form of a question. What about the mechanical advantage between the bellcrank pivot and exit center of leadouts. Roughly 30 inches? This seems to always be left out.

Add in varying winds and changing speeds along with 15 G turns?
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Serge_Krauss on January 01, 2014, 10:53:05 AM
Written, but not posted before Ted's post above...

Hang any model by the LO's and note the angle of the fuselage. Add 10 lbs at the CG, and note the angle of the fuselage. Add 10 pounds at 6" forward and 10 lbs at 6" aft of the CG at the same time. Report back.  y1 Steve

Cogent, but ignored.

Sparky, I think it is time to start ignoring this people that like to argue...

It's time to stop thinking that because some of us continue to post that we "like" to. It's long past that time. It is "time" though for some to appreciate the good will and effort that go into these posts and to look for and consider the real reasons that they are important.

Certainly Robert's fine planes will not fly the worse for his beliefs, although like the vast majority of top planes, they might fly slightly better with attention to control geometry. That follows from what we've posted. But, think about the simple solutions to structural and configurational problems that must go overlooked through following this bellcrank-location restriction philosophy. I've already posted an example of a good plane by one of stunt's iconic figures going wrong through his adherance to a faulty common rule of thumb, also posted in this thread. There's no good reason to limit understanding, when knowing something frees one to do more. So far, NOT ONE SINGLE PERSON has suggested that Robert do anything differently.  So what here is there to ignore on that account?

I would humbly suggest that some might want to look back in this thread to find the significant things that have gone unacknowedged and unaddressed. You might also like to go to the forum where I spent a couple or more hours addressing the last (I hope) consideration in this analysis. One shouldn't expect non-engineering answers to engineering topics.

Now, I hope everyone has a great New Year and enjoyable day.

SK

Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Serge_Krauss on January 01, 2014, 10:58:59 AM
Ted's post is most cogent. A good part of his point has been mentioned more than once and also addressed in another section of this forum. It is one of the points that I characterized just now as "unacknowledged" and "unaddressed".  It is relevant to the discussion, but for reasons given, not relevant to the contention that the rules of the universe as mentioned so often here are not to be violated for reasons of exclusion.

SK
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Randy Ryan on January 01, 2014, 11:06:52 AM
No one is bashing you for reposting it, Robert.  People are pointing out that the conclusions that you're drawing from it are opposite of what it, itself, says.

If you're feeling bashed and put-upon by engineers, I suggest that you go work for a real engineering organization for a while and see how we treat each other.  "Nice" isn't keeping your mouth shut when someone is in error.  "Nice" is pointing out the error as early and comprehensively as possible.  Pointing out such errors, early and comprehensively, is not "bashing".  It is helping, and helping in a huge way.  If it isn't keeping your name from being attached to some error that cost the company huge bucks, it's keeping your name from being attached to some error that killed someone.  In Brett's case, it may be keeping your name from being attached to the technical glitch that started world war III (I'm glad I don't have Brett's job).

So you can take it for the bashing that it isn't, or the favor that it is -- your choice.


Bullseye Tim! I try to stay out of these things but I feel I'm in a somewhat unique position. I worked my way up from a shop hand to Advanced Technology design group leader at Ricardo US, I am titled engineer, tho I am not degreed and I certainly have my short comings. I remember in the shop it was typical to actually believe that it was the shop hands that actually made things work because the engineers were really clueless having mere "book smarts". Its true that in many cases much fettling was required to make a mechanism work, but as I progressed in my development I found that that was only the fit and finish details and NOT the theory and design effort that were faulty. I identify so completely with your description of how engineers sit and egolessly critique each others ideas and have those "OH YEAH" moments. We'd all like to have something that is uniquely our own in the way of a widget, principal or invention, but the fact is that really anything we do in this day and age is a refinement or rehash of something that's been around a long time. Design, built, develop, validate. I worked for a guy once that went to bat for me because the Tech Program Manager didn't like my design and said it was all wrong. Now this design had been built and was running at the time. My boss told him "there are different ways of solving a design problem, just because its not the way YOU think it should be doesn't make it wrong". This is so true, as long as a design doesn't attempt to rewrite the laws of physics, there can be many solutions, some better then others but that's really not the point here. In my position I speak to inventors wanting us to partner with them and develop their invention. We always start with a technical interview of the client and many times find that they truly believe they have somehow circumvented some established law and increased engine efficiency by 90% or some such thing. Those that are convinced are politely told that we are not in a position to involve ourselves because no matter what our conclusion, we will be seen as wrong because we can't duplicate or validate the inventor's predictions. I was taught a huge lesson 23 years ago by a young engineer and I don't think he even realized it. Dave was sharp, I MEAN SHARP! BUT, he had zero and I mean ZERO ego. Any idea was a good idea until it was proven or disproven, and it was always done is a civil and friendly way. I've tried to emulate that with my people and it really make for tremendous productivity but even more important, it opens the doors to everyone's creativity. Sure wish I could see more of that here.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Brett Buck on January 01, 2014, 11:54:54 AM
Ted thanks for explaining this. Only one thing is left out. With a long enough leaver you could move the world. This is in the form of a question. What about the mechanical advantage between the bellcrank pivot and exit center of leadouts. Roughly 30 inches? This seems to always be left out.

    That's the key to why it makes no difference. Your notion that it somehow "wants to straighten itself out" (the angle between the bellcrank pivot-leadout-lines) is not entirely incorrect. No one is leaving that out, it's absolutely critical to the understanding of what is really going on. That's why Bill (and I and many others) have said that you want to put it near the CG, not because of some varying yaw angle due to mythical effect of the bellcrank position, because this force causes drag on the leadout guide which makes it want to saw through the guide, or at least add friction. As mentioned in all three of the same threads on SSW ten or so years ago.

    What seems to be missing is the fact (note, fact) that the torque generated by the line tension through this angle is exactly counteracted by the torque generated by the line tension between the pivot and the CG. So if you mount the bellcrank at an "extreme" position, the force applied to the leadout guide definitely does go up as the line tension goes up - and the torque applied is the forward/aft force on the leadout guide * distance to the pivot. But the pivot applies force to the airframe, too, and if it is not at the CG, that creates a torque, too that is the line tension * distance from pivot to CG. That's why no matter where you put the bellcrank, it's the leadouts position with respect to the CG that matters. Do the math and you will find that the force washes out, so the angle stays the same no matter how much force there is, that is, while the angle is "trying to straighten itself out" due to the increasing line tension, the same line tension increase will counteract it.

    The further you move the pivot from the CG, the larger these forces become, but they still wash out. That's why it wears out the leadout guide, but it doesn't have any affect on the yaw angle.

     This is very basic fundamental physics and trigonometry that has been understood since the time of Newton, or before.

    Brett
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Howard Rush on January 01, 2014, 01:08:53 PM
Although I'm in total agreement about the relationship between the CG and the leadout guides I can't go along with friction being the only result of simply moving the bellcrank fore or aftward.  There will be a distinct change in airplane response because the angular relationship between "driven arms" of the BC (where the leadouts attach) and the resultant geometric relationship of the driver arm (where the pushrod attaches) and, subsequently the relationship of the flaps and elevators to their respective partners...the wing and the stabilizer.

Say the BC is moved six inches aft and the leadout guide remains in the same relationship to the CG.  Yes, the body angle relative to the flight hemisphere will remain the same but the tension on the lines  (in level flight for ease of description) will be equal at both B/C arms and will attempt to "square up" the bell crank with the up line (conventional up/aft) will be pulled so that tension on both arms is equal and thus B/C will thus be rotated "X" degrees from its prior alignment with the longitudinal axis of the airplane.  Thus the old "neutral" handle setting will produce significant up elevator and level flight will require significant "down" input from the pilot to avoid loops, unless...

A new bellcrank would have to be drawn up and built that has the pushrod "driver" hole rotated CCW a number of degrees equal to the angle established by the B/C's leadout arms when equal tension is applied to both (i.e., level flight condition).  The flap and elevator horns would remain as before but the pushrod between the B/C and the flap horn would have to be shortened, of course.  With the redesigned B/C the required "Angular" control inputs for desired flight path results will be essentially identical to the conventional placement with the previous caveat regarding friction at the leadout guide.

Thus, I think it is safe to say that Sparky's contention that simply moving the bellcrank will result in a different "feel" is almost certainly accurate if the movement is a "significant" amount;  the reason for the change in feel will be only peripherally the result of that movement however.  The CG will continue to align itself with the point of tether.

I think...

Yep.  Doing the 3D analysis of a control system, either conventional or Igor's, I was impressed by the effect on control response of the bellcrank output (driver) arm angle.  It has been the most useful parameter to fiddle with in getting the elevator response linear. 
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: EddyR on January 01, 2014, 01:13:42 PM
I have been very hesitant to say anything about the bellcrank location.Not many people have built the same plane over and over and kept it almost identical to the the one before it.  I have built one model ,Juno, nine times since 1987. Plus I have built six Cobra's over a 10 year period. The early Juno' and Cobra's s had the bellcrank in the spar and later ones had it mounted totally behind the spar. The second Juno I flew at the 1988 NATS and several other flyers there flew it and said it was the perfect model. Five different people  flew it and they all said it did not need any adjustments for there style of flying. It was a good model with a good motor. In a effort to duplicate #2 Juno several years later  I built another and put the bellcrank completely behind the spar. That Juno was not as good and hunting would sneak into it if the trim was changed. Until this one none of them had a line slider. They had plug in holes that I could change leadouts location but it was never pessary. With the bellcrank in the back position trim became critical but I lived with it. Several of these Juno's were built for other flyers and they all had the bellcrank behind the spar.I flew them trimmed with there motor and delivered them. I was also building RC models for people at this time. Three years ago I built a new Juno and it was bad right from the beginning.It was identical to the others. It hunted, it got loose above 45 degrees.It drove me crazy. I used it for testing a lot of ideas. Finally crashed it and burned it on the spot. I hated that plane. Two years ago I got out the 1988 Nats Juno that had been resting in a box for 25 years. I did some very basic repairs and flew it. It flew great but was a flying patch. I rebuilt it and put in new controles putting the bellcrank behind the spar. I used ball links on the 27 year old horns and it had super smooth controles. On all these planes I have driven the flaps from the back. The pushrod goes from the bell crank to the elevator and the flaps are driven from a pushrod  from the middle of the elevator pushrod. Now with the plane rebuilt so it wold last at least a few hundred flight I took it out and started flying it. Fore some reason I did not understand the old leadout position I had used for years no longer worked I had to move the leadouts forward to get good tension above 45 degrees and IT STARTED TO HUNT.  After all these years I now know what cause it to hunt. With the bellcrank moved back and the leadouts moved forward and the controles super smooth it will hunt because of the Angle of the leadouts as they exit the wing tip. No drag can be felt but it is there. I moved the leadouts back and added some motor offset to get tension and the hunting went away. Lead out sweep is critical at the wing tip
 All the Cobra's have the lead out very far back and they flew fine with the bellcrank moved back, no hunting.
 The point in all this is I will never build another plane with the bellcrank mover 2" back. They hang correct from the leadouts. They seem OK at first but become very critical to trim if the leadouts do not exit straight at the wing tip.
 I am not taking a position where the bellcrank should be.I am just pointing out what I observed by building the same plane many times with different bellcrank locations.
 Having made my living for many years in the camera repair field I took pictures of all these planes and the mods I did to them so I can post them if you want to see what I did.
EddtR n1
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Brett Buck on January 01, 2014, 02:19:45 PM
Sparky, I think it is time to start ignoring this people that like to argue.   There is nothing like experience to learn something.   Dad always told me to learn from other people experience and save myself some grief. 

    I would note that there is no real arguing going on in this thread. It's not a matter of opinion how this works, so there is no need to believe anything, nor to convince anyone. It's the most fundamental physics and math, it's not open to debate, so I am certainly not attempting to debate this. Why this topic was again brought up is anybody's guess, but it doesn't matter, since the facts don't change.

  There are certainly many things in stunt that are not well-understood in an analytical sense, so anyone who says they do understand everything is certainly lying, and no one is claiming that here. This is not one of them, Isaac Newton never built or flew a stunt plane and he could have figured it out.

   In terms of experiencing things, there are many things about stunt that can be learned from experience, and many that *have to* be learned by experience. But, in this case, no experience is required, you don't have to build any airplanes to figure it out. Most likely, if you are interested in proving points on this topic by building airplanes and seeing how they fly, you will learn either nothing about it, or the wrong thing. Since this is a "non-effect", what is likely to happen is that you will get very misleading results because the rest of the parameters of the experiment will not be controlled.

   As an example - we know for sure that ~15 thousands of an inch of stabilizer skew with respect to the wing can cause an airplane to be untrimmable in some cases. So if you were to build airplanes with three different bellcrank pivot positions, the (non) effect of the pivot position will be utterly swamped by building and mass properties variations. Get the stab out of skew by .005" on one of them, and .005" the other way on another, and they will fly very differently, and the temptation will be to figure it's because of the effect you are looking for (bellcrank pivot) instead of the real issue, and the 100 other differences that you don't even know about.

   Most any conclusion you might draw from pure experiment are extremely prone to misinterpretation like this. That's why the vast majority of what you hear by way of stunt folklore is either completely wrong, or right only assuming something not stated, or misinterpreted. One of the big changes over the past 25 years or so has been to spend some time sorting out the nonsense from the reality. And, in many cases, doing what your Dad suggested and actually learning something from someone else.

   The latter has never been more clearly illustrated than it was in the early 90's. Paul Walker started beating the living sh*t out of everyone, so the extent that it seemed to get too easy for him for a while. What was amazing was how many people reacted to this. Did they go out and start building Impacts with 40VFs? Did they abandon "my airplane is 2 oz lighter so it's 2 oz better" reasoning? Did they start experimenting with smaller props? For many, the answer is no, they went out and tried to find bigger props, build the airplanes lighter yet, and kept sticking with marginal designs that had shown themselves to be behind the curve and made them even more extreme. Most people learned absolutely nothing from that, and still haven't. Other people did, and shared information, and dominated the thing for the next 20 years.

   Many people in stunt have absolutely no interest or willingness to learn ANYTHING that contradicts their preconceived notions, and will go out of their way to do just the opposite just to prove they know better, even to their own obvious competitive detriment.

   Brett

Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Howard Rush on January 01, 2014, 02:54:01 PM
Many people in stunt have absolutely no interest or willingness to learn ANYTHING that contradicts their preconceived notions, and will go out of their way to do just the opposite just to prove they know better, even to their own obvious competitive detriment.

One of the first things I noticed when I started flying stunt is that stunt fliers are pathologically original.  I think that's pretty cool.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Brett Buck on January 01, 2014, 03:32:49 PM
One of the first things I noticed when I started flying stunt is that stunt fliers are pathologically original.  I think that's pretty cool.
 

    For the most part, it is pretty cool.

     Brett
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: RC Storick on January 02, 2014, 08:07:08 AM
One of the first things I noticed when I started flying stunt is that stunt fliers are pathologically original.  I think that's pretty cool.

They use to think the world was flat too.
Title: Re: Not one word was changed
Post by: Avaiojet on January 02, 2014, 09:22:15 AM
They use to think the world was flat too.

"I would be more comfortable if the world was attached to a pole. Doesn't matter where the pole goes."

Charles