Fuel

[Mike Griffin]

It has been 5 years since I last flew due to health reasons.  Since my back and knee problems have improved some, I thought if we got a decent day down here I might try a few flights again.  I have some fuel that is probably five years old.  What is the shelf life of glow fuel?  Also, where do buy your fuel?  I think what I have here is 10% nitro.  Brand is Power Master I believe.  I don't compete anymore, just looking for a good fuel for mostly OS LA engines and Enyas.  What are y'all using?

Thank you

Mike

[Tim Wescott]

I'm using Powermaster GMA, 22% oil, 10% nitro.

When I was in beginner/intermediate I was happy buying Omega fuel at my LHS and doctoring it up with more castor until I was at around 20-22% total oil.  Just add one cup of castor to a gallon.

If your Enya engines are steel piston, you'll want more oil.

[Dwayne]

Yup, Omega 10% 4 oz of Castor.

[Richard Hutlet]

I get the 10% nitro thing but I'm curious as to why such a varied opinion on how
much castor to run. 22% versus 4%??? Is this due to the type of engine you choose
to fly? And since I'm at it. I read 5% nitro for a break in. How about the Castor?

[Richard Hutlet]

Woops my bad. Missed the 4 "ounces" of castor and misread for 4%

[Will Hinton]

Mike, I have already flown with 6 year old fuel with no negative outcome.  Not just a tankfull or two either, but four gallons one summer.

[Mike Griffin]

Will, it has been sealed very well, in fact I have a gallon that I won in the Alabama contest 5 years ago that gas never been opened.  I always liked Powermaster but back when I was still flying it got really hard to find.  Is anybody blending fuel now specific for engines used for control line?  Seems like I remember adding castor to the Powermaster fuel when I was using FOX 35s but it has been so long I don't remember how much.  I need to find a source on line because we have no Hobby Shops left in New Orleans that cater to Control Line.

I appreciate all the input you guys have given.  Can you still buy Powermaster and if so where?

Thank you

Mike

[pat king]

I get my fuel from Eric at RSM. I can get anything I want. My last buy I got everything from 0% Nitro-20% Castor to 35% Nitro- 25% Castor. I fly with Castor because almost all my engines are Steel sleeve -Cast Iron piston lapped engines. Enya has never recommended more than 20% Castor for lube. I go up to 25% Castor for my 25% Nitro and 35% nitro fuel just in case I get a lean run.

Pat

[Brett Buck]

Will, it has been sealed very well, in fact I have a gallon that I won in the Alabama contest 5 years ago that gas never been opened.  I always liked Powermaster but back when I was still flying it got really hard to find.  Is anybody blending fuel now specific for engines used for control line?  Seems like I remember adding castor to the Powermaster fuel when I was using FOX 35s but it has been so long I don't remember how much.  I need to find a source on line because we have no Hobby Shops left in New Orleans that cater to Control Line.

I appreciate all the input you guys have given.  Can you still buy Powermaster and if so where?

  Of course, that's about all anybody uses any more. There are several CL types made - GMA (George M. Aldrich, 22% 50/50 castor synthetic), RO-Jett (inspired or directed by Richard Oliver), various Fox blends with lots of castor.


The regular 18% oil RC Sport Fuel won the 2006 NATS, I know that for certain. I have also used YS 20/20 to very good effect and will be again in a few weeks when I go to Tucson.

    RO-Jett is the one I have had the most success with because you don't need or want much castor oil with ABC/AAC engines. The 18% RC Sport fuel varnishes up my engine and RO-Jett cleans it. The run is markedly different on the two fuels.

My engine won't run correctly on GMA, but it's worth a try on other engines. 

   SIG is OK, and some people are mixing SIG Champion and SIG Syn-Power to get a lower castor content and reduce the tendency to form plug "taters". We used to use SIG Champion but the tater issue was just too much, once we went to the PA61. It might only go 20 flights on some engines before the tater cut the power and you had to get a new plug or scrape the element. SIG used to be stronger for a given nitro content but the current Powermaster is comparable.

    Brett

[Clint Ormosen]

I'm waiting to see where it bottoms out. Still $2.20 or so here in NorCal. If it goes under two bucks I'm running both my work trucks and my personal pickup in for fill ups and I'll keep them full. That's 90 gallons right there. 

[John Leidle]

   I've used old fuel lots of times  4 or more years old.  I use Byron's now days.
  John

[Bootlegger]

  Mike, you can get Powermaster fuel 10-22 at Andy's Hobby Town in Baton Rouge.
 He keeps it in stock most of the time.

 Come join us here in Baton Rouge sometime, glad that you are on the mend...

[John Park]

Something nobody seems to have mentioned yet is that methanol is an absolute devil for absorbing water from the air, and "wet" methanol is reputed to be bad for glow plugs - I'm told it encourages them to burn out.  An old can that's never been opened should be fine, but an old can that's been opened and part-used is probably best employed as a bonfire-starter for when you clear that patch of scrub and weeds at the bottom of the garden!

[Dwayne]

Something nobody seems to have mentioned yet is that methanol is an absolute devil for absorbing water from the air, and "wet" methanol is reputed to be bad for glow plugs - I'm told it encourages them to burn out.  An old can that's never been opened should be fine, but an old can that's been opened and part-used is probably best employed as a bonfire-starter for when you clear that patch of scrub and weeds at the bottom of the garden!

Good point, I've never used open fuel more than a year old, if I buy a jug in Aug. I have no problem using it in April but I don't recommend anything open over a year. As for sealed it should be fine.

[Jim Hoffman]

Something nobody seems to have mentioned yet is that methanol is an absolute devil for absorbing water from the air, and "wet" methanol is reputed to be bad for glow plugs - I'm told it encourages them to burn out.  An old can that's never been opened should be fine, but an old can that's been opened and part-used is probably best employed as a bonfire-starter for when you clear that patch of scrub and weeds at the bottom of the garden!

I mix my own fuel and have had methanol go bad over time.  I suspect it is absorbing water even in the dry climate of Chandler Az.  The ugly symptom I have had are abrupt flameouts at inopportune moments. 

Jim Hoffman

[john e. holliday]

If your old fuel is not working right or not to your satisfaction, get a jug of fresh fuel and mix the two in small quantities.    I usually go 1/2 old and 1/2 new just for getting out to fly.   I was told many years ago that fuel in the metal cans will last for ever if they are never opened.   The plastic jugs are a different story.  Also never store fuel jugs or cans on cement floors.   If you have to, put a wood plank under the jugs/cans.   

[Curare]

I mix my own fuel and have had methanol go bad over time.  I suspect it is absorbing water even in the dry climate of Chandler Az.  The ugly symptom I have had are abrupt flameouts at inopportune moments. 

Jim Hoffman

I've had issues in the past with what I thought were Methanol contamination.

How are you storing the methanol? I used to keep mine in a plastic 20L drum, but after the issues I was having I decided to go back to the old steel drum, and everything seems (so far) to be going better.

Not sure if the 20L plastic drums are slightly pourous and letting through water molcules, or whether the fact that they're generally translucent wasn't affecting the methanol.

[Jim Hoffman]

I store the methanol in 5 gal plastic container in my air conditioned shop, in a VERY dry Arizona climate. 
I have never found steel containers in the right size.  I may simply use 5 one gallon steel jugs in the future.

Jim Hoffman
 

[Randy Cuberly]

I also mix my own fuel but store methanol in 5 Gal metal Gasoline Cans.  We also have a Speed Shop here in Tucson that carries Methanol and Nitro.  I asked the shop owner about water contamination.  He said they buy and store the methanol in 50 gallon drums and do a litmus style test for water periodiocally but it has never proven to be a problem here in Tucson.  He said their company has shops in CA and they do have problems with it there so they backfill the drums with dry nitrogen periodically.  That might be a solution for folks in very wet climates!  A cylinder of dry nitrogen and a regulator would be all you would need, except for a well sealed container of course!

At any rate I find I get much more consistant fuel by mixing myself than any of the commercial stuff!

Randy Cuberly

[John Fitzgerald]

Fuel in tightly sealed dry containers will keep many years.  I am still flying on 15 yr old fuel that I bought bulk and poured into and stored in clean gallon glass wine jugs I got out of a junk pile way back then.
I get good runs.

[Curare]

Just a thought for those who mix their own.

Are you guys mixing a whole bunch and then storing or mixing as you go?

I've found that freshly mixed fuel is generally more reliable that mixing a stack and siphoning off what you need for the weekend, unless of course you're burning gallons of fuel every month.

[Perry Rose]

I mix 5 gallons at a time and go through a gallon in about 10 days.

[Randy Cuberly]

Just a thought for those who mix their own.

Are you guys mixing a whole bunch and then storing or mixing as you go?

I've found that freshly mixed fuel is generally more reliable that mixing a stack and siphoning off what you need for the weekend, unless of course you're burning gallons of fuel every month.

I typically mix only a gallon at a time because I'm lazy I guess and it's just easier to deal with. 

Also of late a lot of issues have kept me from flying very much.  Under normal circumstances I burn a little more than a gallon a week...Thirsty 65's.

Gonna change that real soon.

Randy Cuberly

[Curare]

Hehe, with all the electrics I run these days I'm lucky to get through a gallon in a month.

Not like the old days, where I was running .90's 135's and 140's as my daily flown models, I was chewing through a gallon a DAY practicising pattern schedules.

[Paul Smith]

If you are within driving range of Toledo, buy a year's supply of fuel from Randy Ritch, Ritch's Brew.

[Scott Richlen]

Of course, that's about all anybody uses any more. There are several CL types made - GMA (George M. Aldrich, 22% 50/50 castor synthetic), RO-Jett (inspired or directed by Richard Oliver), various Fox blends with lots of castor.


The regular 18% oil RC Sport Fuel won the 2006 NATS, I know that for certain. I have also used YS 20/20 to very good effect and will be again in a few weeks when I go to Tucson.

    RO-Jett is the one I have had the most success with because you don't need or want much castor oil with ABC/AAC engines. The 18% RC Sport fuel varnishes up my engine and RO-Jett cleans it. The run is markedly different on the two fuels.

My engine won't run correctly on GMA, but it's worth a try on other engines. 

   SIG is OK, and some people are mixing SIG Champion and SIG Syn-Power to get a lower castor content and reduce the tendency to form plug "taters". We used to use SIG Champion but the tater issue was just too much, once we went to the PA61. It might only go 20 flights on some engines before the tater cut the power and you had to get a new plug or scrape the element. SIG used to be stronger for a given nitro content but the current Powermaster is comparable.

Brett:

I can't find PowerMaster at the local hobby shops.   For my PA-61 and RO-Jet 65 what are my alternatives?  What is YS 20/20?

Thanks,
Scott

[Igor]

Need some chemistry engineer from our community to explain better: what process is going on inside of fuel mixture , when it has been stored long time . What is different compare to when it was fresh mixed, bottled for sale. I know from my experience: Fuel mixture like to adsorb moisture from outside air environment during long storage, depends of course , where you have been stored your fuel : like Florida or California, or more: humanity environment in your garage or so. Do not know how castor oil can compensate performance of your fuel after storage. I was adding 1% of Nitro and fuel output, performance was exactly same as it was before storing. Did that eliminate percentage of moisture that has been adsorbed from air during the storage period - can't guaranty , do not know and did not discover that, but many time have took up parted my engine after fuel has been used completely, did not find any evidence of loosing compression, adding more carbon, corrosion, on steel or aluminum,or bronze  parts, no damage on glow plug coil element. This I can guaranty ,done that, know for sure, no guess. In most of the time I use my own mixture because I have access to purchase components separately. But some times I use SIG brand fuel because so far relying on their quality and stability. Igor Panchenko. 

[Phil Spillman]

Scott, Y & S 20/20 is 4C fuel which translates to 20 percent Nitro, 20 percent oil all synthetic. If you mix thhis with FAI fuel you can get a reasonable stunt fuel if the FAI is all Castor oil. I have done this and found it to be a really usable blend. 50% of the Y&S with 50% FAI yields 10% 10/10! Perhaps you Chem E's out there may wish to split hairs but it has worked for me!

 

Phil Spillman

[Brett Buck]

Scott, Y & S 20/20 is 4C fuel which translates to 20 percent Nitro, 20 percent oil all synthetic. If you mix thhis with FAI fuel you can get a reasonable stunt fuel if the FAI is all Castor oil.

     I won a contest about a year ago using YS20/20. But I didn't cut it at all, it was straight out of the can. No need to alter it, if the nitro is acceptable.

    Brett

[Dennis Leonhardi]

It has been 5 years since I last flew due to health reasons.  Since my back and knee problems have improved some, I thought if we got a decent day down here I might try a few flights again.  I have some fuel that is probably five years old.  What is the shelf life of glow fuel?  Also, where do buy your fuel?  I think what I have here is 10% nitro.  Brand is Power Master I believe.  I don't compete anymore, just looking for a good fuel for mostly OS LA engines and Enyas.  What are y'all using?

Thank you

Mike

Mike, I made fuels and sold them through hobby shops in several Midwestern states back in the '60s.  I had a partnership with a couple of chemical engineers, who provided financing.  When the local distributor came to us and asked us to go national, with them as our sponsor, my partners offered to put up enough financing to insure I'd have a full-time salary for 6 months to a year if I'd quit my job in research to develop and market product.  (I was working in the research lab on epoxy adhesives and paints at the time, a perfect compliment to the fuels.)  I decided to keep it a hobby, and we folded the business.

With that background, I would have no qualms about using 20-year-old fuel if it's been stored in a tightly closed container, and provided any castor oil hasn't settled out.  Just be sure to use a good after-run oil.

Some of our buyers did just that.  I particularly remember a free flighter who won or placed highly in the 1/2-A events - including the annual big bash at Bong - running one of our fuels in Tee Dee .049s.  When we quit making fuels, he bought up all he could find of that blend and saved it for contest use only.

Chemically, the fuel should be the same 10 or 20 years from now.  Some of the fuels I'm currently running - which isn't as often as it should be - are several years old, probably at least 3 x 5 years.

That's my take, and I'm sticking to it!

Dennis
 

[Brett Buck]

Brett:

I can't find PowerMaster at the local hobby shops.   For my PA-61 and RO-Jet 65 what are my alternatives?  What is YS 20/20?

   You can order it from Texas Allied Chemicals. I would suggest 10% RO-Jett for both.

    The most obvious alternative would be to mix SIG Syn-power and SIG Champion 2:1 (2 parts Syn-Power, 1 part Champion). That should hold down on the varnishing and the taters. When you start running it, check the plug after about 10 flights for a small, smooth, black lump on the plug element. If there is, very carefully scrape it off. If nothing, check at 20, 50, etc. flights. If you notice the power dropping, check again.

     You can try SIG Champion, straight, but that loads my RO-Jett up in inside corners, and several others have noted the same effect. Powermaster GMA, same thing, even worse. I think you can tolerate no more than about 9% castor. Powermaster RO-Jett is 7/15 castor/synthetic, Powermaster RC Sport is 9/9 and has a marked tendency towards more boost/brake than RO-Jett fuel. Powermaster GMA is 11/11.

      The PA61/65 seem to be more prone to tater formation for some reason. Much more so than the 40 or 51. I don't know about the 75, I think David has only run it on Powermaster.

    The RO-Jett doesn't seem to have the same issue, why, I have no idea, because when I was running both, they ran the same prop at the same RPM although the RO-Jett used substantially less fuel. My PA61 had much less tendency to form taters than Davids, and David's dad's engine formed them in 5-10 flights! We went to Powermaster RC Sport fuel and, no taters.

    You don't want or need a lot of castor in these sort of engines, it just causes problems.

      Brett

[Allan Perret]

   
     Powermaster RC Sport is 9/9 and has a marked tendency towards more boost/brake than RO-Jett fuel. Powermaster GMA is 11/11.
    

The "more boost/brake", overall is that good or bad. 
I'm  thinking the brake is good but not so much the boost, if by boost you mean surging out of the corners ??

[Brett Buck]

The "more boost/brake", overall is that good or bad. 
I'm  thinking the brake is good but not so much the boost, if by boost you mean surging out of the corners ??

    It's hard to have one without the other. It is neither good or bad in general, it's a trimming tool. I have sometimes switched based on how I happened to be flying at a particular contest or contest site. And I have sometimes mixed RC Sport fuel and RO-Jett in the syringe from flight to flight to adjust the effect. At sea level the tendency is for more boost/brake, so I generally run straight RO-Jett. At Muncie the boost/brake effect tends to be greatly reduced, so RC Sport fuel straight.

    I think this is also why we always get into arguments about engines. Setups that are great in the Midwest (moderate altitude and lots of humidity) sometimes have far too much variation and "funnies" in dead dry sea level air. Particularly the tendency of schneurles to run faster on outsides is tremendously increased. You can take the exact same engine/fuel/setup and have it work fine in, say, Georgia, and then bring it back here and it is nearly unflyable, or at least makes it much more difficult than it should be.

      In my case I generally want less boost/brake that is commonly available. We (David, Ted, and I) fought that for years with some engines, and it is why we run the engines we do, and why we set them up the way we do. I run the RO-Jett 61BSE "Brett" version precisely because it was much easier to get it to run that way, but without giving up the performance and flexibility you lose with a 4-stroke. Electric offers the same features without the loss of adjustability/flexibility.

        Brett

[bob whitney]

  i have a feeling that a lot of flyers use a lot of caster to cover up for worn rings

[Allan Perret]

   It's hard to have one without the other. It is neither good or bad in general, it's a trimming tool. I have sometimes switched based on how I happened to be flying at a particular contest or contest site. And I have sometimes mixed RC Sport fuel and RO-Jett in the syringe from flight to flight to adjust the effect. At sea level the tendency is for more boost/brake, so I generally run straight RO-Jett. At Muncie the boost/brake effect tends to be greatly reduced, so RC Sport fuel straight.

    I think this is also why we always get into arguments about engines. Setups that are great in the Midwest (moderate altitude and lots of humidity) sometimes have far too much variation and "funnies" in dead dry sea level air. Particularly the tendency of schneurles to run faster on outsides is tremendously increased. You can take the exact same engine/fuel/setup and have it work fine in, say, Georgia, and then bring it back here and it is nearly unflyable, or at least makes it much more difficult than it should be.

      In my case I generally want less boost/brake that is commonly available. We (David, Ted, and I) fought that for years with some engines, and it is why we run the engines we do, and why we set them up the way we do. I run the RO-Jett 61BSE "Brett" version precisely because it was much easier to get it to run that way, but without giving up the performance and flexibility you lose with a 4-stroke. Electric offers the same features without the loss of adjustability/flexibility.

        Brett

I went to the PowerMaster site and did not see a "RC Sport" blend that you refered to.  This is what they have listed under Airplane RC.

Synthetic / Castor Blend
PowerMaster FAI Airplane 20% oil – no nitro
5%  Nitro PowerMaster Airplane 18% oil
10% Nitro PowerMaster Airplane 18% oil
15% Nitro PowerMaster Airplane 18% oil
10% PowerMaster Air MEAN & GREEN 18% oil – ALL SYNTHETIC
15% PowerMaster Air MEAN & GREEN 18% oil – ALL SYNTHETIC
10% PowerMaster POWERBLEND 18% OIL - 2/4 STROKE HI-PERFORMANCE
15% PowerMaster POWERBLEND 18% OIL - 2/4 STROKE HI-PERFORMANCE

Which one were you talking about ?

Also, from the boost/brake standpoint, which of the Powermaster blends do you think would be best for RoJetts and PAs in the hot and humid Gulf coast area ?

  

[Brett Buck]

These are the RC Sport fuel:

5%  Nitro PowerMaster Airplane 18% oil
10% Nitro PowerMaster Airplane 18% oil
15% Nitro PowerMaster Airplane 18% oil

For my engine, I would start with either 15% RC Sport fuel or a 50/50 mix of 10% RO-Jett and YS 20/20. Experiment from there.

    Brett

[Allan Perret]

These are the RC Sport fuel:

5%  Nitro PowerMaster Airplane 18% oil
10% Nitro PowerMaster Airplane 18% oil
15% Nitro PowerMaster Airplane 18% oil

For my engine, I would start with either 15% RC Sport fuel or a 50/50 mix of 10% RO-Jett and YS 20/20. Experiment from there.

    Brett

I am picking up a case of the 10% RoJett blend tomorrow, and I have about 3/4gal. of 4 year old YS20/20 from my 4-stroke ventures back them.

[Steve Helmick]

I haven't bought fuel since VP (Powermaster) bought out Wildcat. I've been running 10% x 18% Premium Wildcat, which has some percentage of castor oil, suspected to be 20% of the 18% being castor. I also add an ounce or two of Randy Smith's Aero-1 "Snake Oil" to it, usually. Seems to work fine in any ABN/ABC/AAC engine.

Chances are pretty good that you can order anything from VP that you want through your LHS, as long as you buy a whole case at a whack. Whether that is going to be a 4 gallon case or a 6 gallon case, I can't say. I'd like metal cans, but Wildcat came in plastic jugs (thus 4 gallon cases). I've still got some old Powermaster in the garage (unopened metal cans), and have no expectation of problems with it...other than the nitro content being less than stated on the can.  Steve

[John Leidle]

   Hey Steve how's the new plane coming along?  Just for the sake of accuracy Byrons bought out Wildcat .  If you guys are looking for 15% all synthetic ( at least when you mix 50% Rojett & YS 20/20 that's what it is)  you might look into Byrons Heli Fuel  they make a 15% all synthetic...
               John

[Scott Richlen]

Tower lists 10%N 18% Syn/Castor Qrt, so I'll see if that will work.

Scott

[Carl Cisneros]

Scott

which fuel are you referring to?

I do have 2 Gal. of power master here at the house, BUT, I think it might be a bit HOT
for the plane tho.................

[Brett Buck]

I am picking up a case of the 10% RoJett blend tomorrow, and I have about 3/4gal. of 4 year old YS20/20 from my 4-stroke ventures back them.

   Bear in mind, in my case, I am set up to run 10% in dry sea level air. If you are set up to run 10% in the heat and humidity of Slidell, 15 might go over the top. In my engine, it pretty much cannot be over-compressed, so I would guess you *should* be able to run almost any reasonable amount of nitro.

   With that I would run a tank of 10%, a tank of 15% (50/50 mix of the two) and straight YS 20/20, and see what the difference are.

    Brett