P-40 or Profile 40 class what's this about?

[jeffindayton]

I seen P-40 term being used as advertising with the Top Flite Primary Force ARF or maybe the plans ad.... can anyone tell me what is is about? I looked at AMA site and see 322-327 "stunt" categories....did I miss something?

Thanks for the info

Jeffindayton

[RC Storick]

P-40 is a term they use for local contests. Profile plane with a engine no bigger than .40 Usually no BOM rule.

[jeffindayton]

Great...thanks any chance you  know of Dayton, OH Buzzin Buzzards online info?

[RC Storick]

No I sure don't sorry. I am still considering you Clubs suggestion. Thanks

[Bootlegger]

  We here in District 8 fly P-40 at a lot of our contest's. The rules are simple. profile fuse, nothing larger than a 40 cid, no pipes, no bom, no apperance points and all A M A safety rules..  These are the rules in Baton Rouge La. anyway...

[Ward Van Duzer]

One other important thing about P-40 is that in many areas they use skill classes. That way the expurts don't get to suck the little pieces of plastic away from the beginner/intermediate flyers. 


Ward

[Bill Little]

"P-40" is a local event and seems to be the "profile" event West of the Mississippi.  We just have "Profile" in the South East.  Just the preferences of local areas.  What's funny is that a lot of "Profile" entries around here are eligible for P-40, we just don't limit engine size.

All are great events.

Bill <><

[Ward Van Duzer]

Or skills...

Ward

[L0U CRANE]

One thing to note about P-40, or Profile, Stunt events...

The AMA Profile definition has definite wording that there shall be NO structure 'above' the engine bearers (i.e., in the direction of the cylinder head) in the area occupied by the engine. Designs like the Coyote have a half-cheek fairing to meet the spinner, ON THE CYLINDER HEAD SIDE. A Coyote should be acceptable, tho:

1) If the sponsors say they'll use a relaxed version of the AMA Profile fuselage definition, or

2) they specifically list a few designs (like the Coyote) which have such half cheeks outboard, as examples of the variation from AMA. Or,

3) the entrants modify their models so that the original half-cheek is cut down to fit the AMA definition.

Organizers take note: possible entrants at YOUR meet need to know these things!

[Steve Helmick]

The event is correctly called "P.40"! If you call it "P-40", too many folks think it's for semi-scale Curtiss Warhawks. Other than that, near as I can tell, not that many areas of the country still use the .40 engine size limit. Some of us are trying to change the NW rules right now, to a 15cc limit. Nobody in their right mind would actually build a 15cc powered profile. But I can't see having to refuse entries powered by .46LA's, ST .46's,  G.51's,  TT .42's, or twins with .21FP's. "Profile Stunt" isn't quite as catchy a name, tho.    Steve 

[Paul Smith]

The reason for "denying entry" to larger engines is simple.  To control cost and to help prevent "win-at-any-cost" vulures for dominating all the events.

You are welcome to use 15 cc (or .92 cubic inches in The King's English) is F2b, AMA, Classic, and maybe even OTS.

Please leave P.40 and 1/2A to those who chose not to spend the big buck.   Whoever originated the class did a good job on the rules.  Just fly it.

[Paul Smith]

Osburne Reynolds predicted this in 1883.

People who want to expend the effort to build 60-powered profiles and lobby for a rules concession believe it.  If they didn't, they'd just fly a Twister with a 40.

Airbus believed it when they designed and built a plane to top the Boeing 747.   This is the ultimate result of not drawing a line.   

The airlines are a business, subject only the laws of free market economics.
P.40 is a sporting event, and as such, needs reasonable limits that suit the majority of the contestants.

[Bill Little]

Hi Paul,

I appreciate your views.  A lot of events have been "lost" to big money.  But we have never had a P.40 profile event in this area ofthe country, and it has not been detremental at all.  The biggest complaint I beleive that could be heard is that we do not run skill classes.  Everyone flies together, regardless.

I am yet to see a PA 65 in a profile, mostly the entrants are of the 35-40 size and LA 46s thrown in.  Actually modestly to low end price engines are usually used.

HOWEVER, I have seen Ro Jett barstock, rear exhaust 40s in Profile which is definitely not a low cost engine, but perfectly legal since it is a 40.  The Aero Tiger 36 (over $200 new) also shows up occasionally.  So limiting cost is not a factor of using a 40 size cutoff.  And we all know it is easier to build a lower wing loading airplane as the size gets bigger.  This without a substantial increase in cost or building time.  And the lower wing loading will generally fly better.

Keeping costs down in any event will not be limited to engine size unless there is an "Approved list" of engines that can be used.  Otherwise, it is totally left up to what the entrant wants to do.

Bill <><

[Paul Smith]

It's true that we've never been successful at limited the price or cost of engines in our events.

One interesting event was quarter midget RC Pylon.  Finley and one of his parterns commissioned Ugo Rossi to make 1,000 Rossi 15RC's to comply with a 1,000-engine rule.  They shipped in the 1,000 Rossi's and immediately sold most of them at $130 each.  The new engines instantly domiantd the event.

Cheapskates (like me) fired back with a $50-maximum rule, thereby giving the event back to Coxes and G15's.

Finley shot back by cutting his price to $49.95 on what remained of his inventory, less than 100 units.  Thus everybody with a Rossi 15RC could claim to have paid $49.95.

I, in fact, did pay $49.95 for the two I bought and they went good in F2d, I might still have the carbs and use 'em in a 15 profile carrier job.

Thus, the outcome on an engine price rule.

------------------------------------------

Bottom line, a high-bucks 40-powered model is still a lot more affordable than a high-bucks 65-powered model.   But if you feel the need to price the peasants of of the game, go for it.   
That's why they have $20 golf courses and $300 golf courses.

[Bill Little]

Hi Paul,

The point I am making, and has shown to be true around this area of the country, is that engine size limitations, or specifically the lack thereof, have not priced the event out of the range of US peasants! 


We just NEVER HAD an engine requirement.  Being a "non-official" event, and no NATS or WC on the line, might be the reason nobody has seen the need to bring out an Ukranian built $3000 profile............... we have no "tradition" of a .40 limit to be attached to.  Entries have never suffered due to this.  This is an event where I can enter and fly against some VERY high level Experts, and judge where I am at.  Winning "Profile" is not one of my considerations at this time.  There are too many guys who can outfly me with a McCoy Red Head 35 in a 35 oz. Ringmaster and me with any choice of set up I want!

As you and I know, it is the entrants that will set the standards for every event, Official or otherwise, and no amount of rules can really overcome that.

Engine size vis a vis number of entrants has never produced an outcome in "our" area.

[Ward Van Duzer]

But don't you think skill classes level the playing field?

Don't you think that profile events were created to pull the week-end pilots out of their wood work?

So what happens anytime you create an event for low tech, low skilled flyers.

Just look at OTS...

[Bill Little]

But don't you think skill classes level the playing field?

Don't you think that profile events were created to pull the week-end pilots out of their wood work?

So what happens anytime you create an event for low tech, low skilled flyers.

Just look at OTS...

Hi Ward,

I do not argue with any of your points!   Just commenting that we have never had a rule for engine size in Profile and it hasn't seemed to hurt in "pulling the week-end pilots out of their wood work".  Has it??

Lova ya, guy, when we gonna get back together?

Bill <><

[Paul Smith]

Don't you think that profile events were created to pull the week-end pilots out of their wood work?

So what happens anytime you create an event for low tech, low skilled flyers.

Just look at OTS...

I wouldn't necesarily call P.40 either low-tech or low-skill. 
Just, maybe low cost, compared to a full-body stunter with the maximum allowable engine.

In practice, at least in this neck of the woods, the true experts have voluntarily stayed clear of  P.40.   
I'm just hoping to fly some "casual" competition without buying a 56 or 65 and the truck to haul it in.

[Alan Hahn]

Steve,
So to be clear, you really say P-dot-40?

Around here P.40 seems to be  flown "classless" (no that doesn't describe my flying--at least most of the time). Actually I find it refreshing to be thrown in with the big fish, it does give you a chance to see how you compare to the elite, like Fred K.!!

I think the main reason organizers do this is to cut down on trophy costs--it does impact how much it costs to run a contest. Anyhow, P.40 is very popular.

Now next year we will run P.XX at Treetown, anything allowed. We will see if more people enter or not.

[Bill Little]

Steve,
So to be clear, you really say P-dot-40?

Around here P.40 seems to be  flown "classless" (no that doesn't describe my flying--at least most of the time). Actually I find it refreshing to be thrown in with the big fish, it does give you a chance to see how you compare to the elite, like Fred K.!!

I think the main reason organizers do this is to cut down on trophy costs--it does impact how much it costs to run a contest. Anyhow, P.40 is very popular.

Now next year we will run P.XX at Treetown, anything allowed. We will see if more people enter or not.

HI Alan,

I wouldn't expect the numbers of entries to rise dramatically, if at all.  Engine size just doesn't seem to matter as to whether or not someone enters Profile.  At least that is what I've seen.

Bill <><

[Alan Hahn]

Bill,
I don't know how many plan on plugging in their PA or Jett xx engines, but I know the LA46 is a sweetie and is popular. Anyway we were approached saying that some people wanted to fly P.40, but they had bigger engines. I was wondering if it had anything to do with the Top Flite "super-sized" Tutor and the ST51's that a lot of folks are putting in. I don't think, at least in the short run that we will lose people. Jim Schuette could beat most of us with his Baby Clown and BigMig 049! What a showoff! 

Hey, what if I entered with my electric Super Clown?  Would it be the end of CL life as we know it?

[Bill Little]

Bill,
I don't know how many plan on plugging in their PA or Jett xx engines, but I know the LA46 is a sweetie and is popular. Anyway we were approached saying that some people wanted to fly P.40, but they had bigger engines. I was wondering if it had anything to do with the Top Flite "super-sized" Tutor and the ST51's that a lot of folks are putting in. I don't think, at least in the short run that we will lose people. Jim Schuette could beat most of us with his Baby Clown and BigMig 049! What a showoff! 

Hey, what if I entered with my electric Super Clown?  Would it be the end of CL life as we know it?

I believe you are on the right track with the Tutor II popularity, and the LA 46/ST 51 assessment.

As to the Electric Super Clown, in Profile, GO FOR IT! 

Bill <><

[Bill Little]

At our local contests, the TEOSAWKI and an OS 46LA is very popular.  The plane is available as a, basically, RTF (just mount the engine) and the LA 46 can be had on the cheap......

Sir Thomas of Luper DID, however, modify his TEOSAWKI into a fairly pretty airplane and hung a DS 54 on it.  But that's not the "norm".  Brodak Warbirds, RD-1s, Twisters, Imitations, etc., etc., along with some originals, are seen in Profile. 

"Mr. Ringmaster" (Roy Phillip) used to whip us all with just that....... an old Ringmaster and a Fox 35 (which you could make out through the burned on castor! LOL!!).

[Bootlegger]

 
   One thing that I forgot to mention is that here in Baton Rouge, La. when we fly P-40 we do fly skill classes so that the beginner has as much of a chance to score a trophy as anyone else.
 Hope that this helps...

[Bill Little]

What's funny is that I have only flown 2 profile models with the engine bigger than a .40, and neither in a contest.  A Shameless w/ST 46, and Busby's TEOSAWKI w/LA 46.

Every other profile I have owned or flown has had a .40 or smaller, most of them smaller!  I am finishing a Mathis Stuka which will have a Leo 37 (actually 34) which I will attempt to fly in Profile this year.  My current Profile is a Tomahawk  w/FP 20!

Forgot to add:  I WILL be building a Don Hutcherson SBD Profile and I am unsure as to just what engine I will use it that one.  Got an extremely good FP 40 that just might find it's way into that one!  You see, I just can't bring myself to use an Aero Tiger 36 or an ST 46 in a "profile"!  But, then again, there is the Imitation that just might end up with an OS 40VF in it!

[rob biddle]

  At the beginning of the thread I was wondering if the capacity limit would really help to keep the class affordable for most.
 
 If you had the cash you could simply run a PA or JETT .40 and comfortably fly a 700+sq in model on .015" lines.
 
 From what has been posted so far, thankfully that doesn't seem to be the case!

 I think profile events really are great for up and coming flyers to get more practice just flying the pattern.

 There are some really competetive profile designs out there such as the Heartbeat "Sukhoi" and the Brodak "Cardinal", that can be flown to the top levels of expert competition in the right hands which can be powered well with engines of modest cost. B.40 , La .40/.46, Magnum .36, etc.

 We don't have a profile specific event or skill classes in f2b (locally) as there is just not enough entrants, though a lot of the beginner through advanced flyers are flying profiles.

 All levels flying together seems to work ok and is certainly better than no contest at all.

Cheers, Rob.

[Alan Hahn]

I should note that in all the contests I have been in that have had P.40, there has also been the standard PAMPA skill class event. So we all have a chance at a trophy. That's why I don't miss forgoing classes in P.40.
I have been surprised how popular the P.40 event is. I have guessed that a lot of people who come to contests appreciate being able to fly an extra 2 flights or more (practice). I have been pretty spoiled by having a site that I can fly at twice a day (weather permitting)--ok, don't ask me why I haven't improved much!!

[Ralph Wenzel (d)]

Great...thanks any chance you  know of Dayton, OH Buzzin Buzzards online info?

Apparently no website, but here's the contact info:

http://www.controllineracing.com/clubs/club_info.asp?CID=65

Used to fly at their contests in the '60s & ''70s

[phil c]

You know, if folks want to fly more at a contest, and there is time available, why not just run another round of the standard event and use the best two scores out of three, instead of the best out of two.  Or if the time is available, fly 4 rounds.  You could even let folks switch planes between rounds if they wanted to.  Flying three or four different events just triples or quadruples the number of trophies for very little gain.  The best flyers still tend to win all the hardware, whether they are flying OTS, Profile, P-40, PAMPA, or AMA.

[Bill Little]

You know, if folks want to fly more at a contest, and there is time available, why not just run another round of the standard event and use the best two scores out of three, instead of the best out of two.  Or if the time is available, fly 4 rounds.  You could even let folks switch planes between rounds if they wanted to.  Flying three or four different events just triples or quadruples the number of trophies for very little gain.  The best flyers still tend to win all the hardware, whether they are flying OTS, Profile, P-40, PAMPA, or AMA.

Ahhhh........ Phil.......  let me get this straight.......... there was only ONE event in combat when you flew???  Coulda swore there was more.........

Some people like to fly different events........ wow, unusual concept!

Bill <><

[john e. holliday]

Ahhhh........ Phil.......  let me get this straight.......... there was only ONE event in combat when you flew???  Coulda swore there was more.........

Some people like to fly different events........ wow, unusual concept!

Bill <><

Bill, I thought you were older than that!  I can remember when there was Combat, Navy Carrier, Precision Aerobatics, Scale and Team Race.  At the time I started Rat Race was just being started.  I didn't add Speed to the list as there was 1/2A, A, B, C, D and Jet.  The good old days of control line.  I did leave off Endurance as it was usually flown only during the NATS.  Later,  DOC Holliday

[Bill Little]

I am Doc!  Just sounded like ol' Phil was implying to drop all the other stuff and only fly one event.  Just fly more rounds of CLPA instead of all the others.  I *think* he was "tongue in cheek" as I was.

Bill <><