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Author Topic: Nobler - History  (Read 4755 times)

Offline Steve Dwyer

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Nobler - History
« on: November 04, 2018, 08:13:57 AM »
I had lunch with my flying buddy Lyle Spiegel who has decided to gift me an old Nobler. I have Nobler plans I secured from the AMA Plans Service some time back in hopes to someday build one. Lyle's Nobler as he described was an "excellent" build by a gentleman in eastern NY who did well with it competitively and later gifted it to someone who later gifted it to Lyle. I wasn't taking notes when Lyle took me thru the particulars of this model's history and since my memory doesn't serve me well any more I don't have all the details. I will re connect with Lyle on this to be sure but in the mean time I'm planning this winters restoration of this ship.

The model is in reasonably good shape requiring some minor repairs, new fabric, tank, controls, and re painting.

MY QUESTION is I'd like to know the history of the Nobler model, Lyle took me thru his version, a 1/2 hour dissertation he offered to send me but in the mean time I've searched over SH thinking it may already exist.  Surely the topic has been covered before. I'd like to understand beginning with George's original pre 52 design thru the various design modifications including the Gieske, Green Box, Blue Box, Top Flite kit, ARF's to today's laser cut kit versions now available.

Has anyone ever come across the written history, does it exist?

Steve

Offline EddyR

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2018, 09:33:41 AM »
Just type nobler in the search engine on here and you will get more information than you want.
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2018, 05:02:11 PM »
Quote
Has anyone ever come across the written history, does it exist?

Steve

THERES a Job for You . 

https://stunthanger.com/smf/nostalgia-30/gieseke-nobler/

https://stunthanger.com/smf/nostalgia-30/gieseke-nobler-46/

Turns out the G N 46 is a G N 60 minus a few bays .

The ' Original ' G N 35 info is there . But theres a few variations on the under fuse. ' kink ' on the differing drawings .
The Text from the A M A mag , and the hand drawn fuse. Drg. is how & where Id Start .

Edting this stuff will get you started on the Gieske Portion of your History , anyway . I know stuff all on the Aldrich Job .

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2018, 07:55:53 PM »
   I'll try to give an abridged history from memory.
     George built a series of airplanes that became the Nobler ( I believe there were two or three??) leading up to the article presented in Model Airplane News in June of 1952 titled "Stunting Can Be Smooth, Part 2" that included plans for the '52 Nobler. There were many errors in those plans, as they used general purpose draftsmen back then who sometimes made mistakes or took liberties that they shouldn't have.  Planes built to those plans should fly, and are considered OTS legal, although George thought it was too ahead of it's time and should not be. George reworked the design to make it the Top Flite Nobler in 1957, which is referred to at the "green box Nobler" that we all know and love. The design was reduced a little bit to use standard balsa sheet sizes and so the kit would fit in a standard box. This was done a lot back then, a story for another time. The kit was produced until the Geiseke Nobler was introduced. I was essentially the same airplane with some minor changes that Bob G. incorporated into the design, and Top Flite thought it was time for an upgrade so they kept them. This was the kit in the blue box. When Top Flite was purchased by Great Planes years ago, all the tooling for original Top Flite kits was destroyed, and the rights to the design reverted back to George. By that time, George had drawn a set of plans for the original 1952 Nobler and was selling them. He never did have a set of plans for the original models, as I understand it and he drew his plan from what he had left of the original airplanes. I bought a set of them from him at VSC a few years before he passed away. He then turned the design over to Brodak, who could now produce a kit of what was called the Original Nobler, and as far as I can tell it is pretty close to Georges plan. It has more wing off set than the mag plan and is also a bit bigger. The ARF Nobler is pretty close to the '57 or "green box" Nobler and is usually allowed in Classic Stunt competition. That is the quick story, and I reserve the right to be corrected on any points that I have made, but I think this is essentially the story. I don't know what issue Part 1 or "Stunting Can Be Smooth" was published in but it isn't in the few preceding issues, I just checked. If you can find that whole article it will explain some of what lead up to the design as published and why.
   Type at you later,
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Offline Trostle

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2018, 09:19:40 PM »
Stunting Can be Smooth, Part one was published in the May 1952 issue of Model airplane News.  That gave an outline for the development of the Nobler, four pages long.  Part Two was in the June 1952 issue, in seven pages gave us the plans and the construction article for the Nobler.

Keith

Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2018, 05:20:27 AM »
In the beginning there was the Chief. The Chief begot the Super Chief and GMA was pleased. GMA used the Super Chief to beget the Nobler. And that's a fact.
I may be wrong but I doubt it.
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Offline De Hill

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2018, 11:23:16 AM »
In the beginning there was the Chief. The Chief begot the Super Chief and GMA was pleased. GMA used the Super Chief to beget the Nobler. And that's a fact.

George Aldrich told me (and many others) that He received  a pre production Chief from Bob Palmer. He built it, and then built a total of 13 modified Chiefs,

The 13th Modified Chief was the Nobler.

The Super Chief was designed by Joe Wagner, NOT Bob Palmer.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2018, 11:46:50 AM by De Hill »
De Hill

Offline billbyles

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2018, 02:51:53 PM »
George Aldrich told me (and many others) that He received  a pre production Chief from Bob Palmer. He built it, and then built a total of 13 modified Chiefs,

The 13th Modified Chief was the Nobler.

The Super Chief was designed by Joe Wagner, NOT Bob Palmer.

That is exactly what George told me at one of the early VSCs (about 1994 or so.)
Bill Byles
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Offline billbyles

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2018, 02:52:47 PM »
George Aldrich told me (and many others) that He received  a pre production Chief from Bob Palmer. He built it, and then built a total of 13 modified Chiefs,

The 13th Modified Chief was the Nobler.

The Super Chief was designed by Joe Wagner, NOT Bob Palmer.

Duplicate (sorry)
Bill Byles
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So. Cal.

Offline Brett Buck

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2018, 03:47:58 PM »
This is also mentioned in  the video interview of George done by Bob Hunt.  Back a few years I was building the 52 MAN version of the Nobler and a poly wog Chief, copied from my kit. It was obvious the wing was a Chief wing.. sans the reflex and added sweep of the LE.  Also, and this was amazing to me at the time, the stab and elevator of the Chief and 52 Nobler are exactly the same other than the Nobler's being thicker. H^^

   The critical difference between the taper-wing Chief and the Nobler was that George lengthened the tail moment by 1". This was to solve a "roll/yaw" problem what I figure from his description was probably a snap-roll constrained only by the lines. Lengthening the tail moment as far from an obvious solution to this issue, but I figure he probably increased the pitch authority while also reducing the maximum pitch rate possible, to something the wing could tolerate. This was probably exacerbated by the fact that he was using almost 2:1 elevator/flap ratio - which is about what you need for flaps that large and a reasonably light airplane. The Green Box got published with 1:1, which to almost everyone (then and now) is far too much flap for the usual range of weights.

     Brett

Offline De Hill

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2018, 05:36:40 PM »
At some of the early VSC's George Aldrich would show up at Silverbell Park, back into a parking space, raise the rear door of his minivan, and set down on the back of the van. Guys would come up. sit down and ask him questions.  Sometimes there would be 10 or more guys gathered around.

George said that when He was a teenager, He would  travel to California and work for Fox Manufacturing Company. He was mainly assigned to shipping and receiving.  He said that He was not fast enough to be assigned to engine assembly. Each day after work, He would go fly with Bob Palmer. This is one reason for George's successes in Controline Stunt.

In Texas, He lived across the street from a Country Club. He was able to easily test the 13 versions of the Chief that He built. All He had to do was walk across the street to test fly.

He had many experiences to relate. I can't remember them all.
De Hill

Offline Steve Dwyer

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2018, 05:54:31 PM »
You guys have been great providing the history of the Nobler. I've attached some photos of the model I was given. The model was built by Rob Aronstein from eastern New York who is no longer active. He did a nice job. It requires a good restoration including a tank replacement, new motor mounts, rib repairs, re silk covering (it has tissue on it) and new paint. The fuse unfortunately has been cracked just behind the leading edge, someone has applied carbon strips as a fix. It may require a complete fuse so I wonder if a new kit is a better way to go? Rob I found on SH was last active in the 90s and was involved in a Jack Sheets Mosquito. He is no longer listed as a member.
Your thoughts on the way to go here?
Steve

Offline TigreST

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2018, 06:25:42 PM »
  This one will be a great conversation starter in any "man cave"or shop.. y1

Yeah,..got one of them kinda Noblers hang in the rafters right now!  It's on the "some day" list for restoration.

Tony Bagley
Ontario, Canada

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2018, 05:14:02 PM »
Quote
The fuse unfortunately has been cracked just behind the leading edge, someone has applied carbon strips as a fix. It may require a complete fuse so I wonder if a new kit is a better way to go

BOTH ACTUALLY .!

thats a GIESKE Nobler .

If your hangers bare , ' an evenings work ' would be patching the missing bits , and throw some new TISSUE on , where required .
And it'd be back in the air where its supposed to be .

Wacking a ' few bits thru ' the cracked area , a bit of stiff sheet , or 1/4 Sq spuce or pine ( 4 longerons ) might see that right ,
tho a 1/2 sheet profile fse would be adequate .

You can spend more time than building one from scratch , if your not carefull .
( Having ALL the pieces new for a car , say a 55 chev , is very differant from restoring a 55 chev . If you get the drift )
a ' patch up job ' , if you want t in the air , saves getting snowed under .

If you got ' Comp wood ' & maybe a set of ribs , for doing a new Gieske Nobler , all the info is up there .
Obviously a control system too . TARGET WEIGHT is around 43 Ounce - Which the T F Kit might not manadge ,
Tho maybe theres others out their these days ? ? .



Holding it down firmly on a bench , and wrenching the nose around , would tell you if its O K as is .see any cracks .
maybe just pour in superglue .

Offline Steve Dwyer

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #14 on: November 09, 2018, 09:13:30 AM »
Had a chance to take a closer look at the Gieseke Nobler. As Matt suggested checking the fuse nose I found no movement or evidence of cracks, it's solid. The repair was done well without building up the exterior, it appears an incision or section was removed and replaced so stiffening was probably added. Sanding the area with some clear and epoxy lite will probably clean it up nicely before finishing it.

The wing covering is not silk or tissue, whatever it was it's very stiff and brittle. Removing it does tend to pull the caps strips taking some of the rib with it. I may have to scribe and sister in the outer edge of the ribs with a 1/8 strip to achieve the original rib shape to support the new cap strips. I might by a rib set for this. I haven't tried running a blade between the rib and the cap strip this may work without rib damage, the ribs are fragile.  The wing structure is sound with no flexing or movement.

The lead outs are solid wire, I've never installed solid wire but these and the bell crank appear to be ok, I cannot see the method he used to secure the bell crank. I gave them a good pull and it appears ok. The control movement is smooth with equal throw, the elevator is around 35 degrees with the flaps at 34.  I'm considering leaving the wire and the controls as is rather than cutting thru underside of the fuse and wing to change everything out. Your thoughts on this?

The motor mounts are solid with no cracks and the blind mounting nuts are in place and secure. It's set up for a Fox 35. I'd rather not replace the tank. Think I'll pressure test it and pump acetone thru it until it comes out clear. Done this in the past with good results, any negative experience here?

I don't like recovering the wing and control surfaces with the flaps and elevator installed, wish I could remove them but they are secure with a pull test I did at each hinge. Except for one nylon hinge on the wing trailing edge where the balsa has lifted probably from impact the hinges are solid and none are broken.

The main gear bulk head is solid with no movement.

I'd like to install a complete new finish starting with bare wood but I'm going to have to decide how far I want to go in removing the finish material the builder installed on the closed surfaces. What ever is on the wings is on the solid areas. It all may loosen and come off using lacquer thinner or acetone but I don't want to comprise the structure in weakening the glue. I can run my thumb nail along the wing fillets and they break thru, he may have used the old Ambroid here??

I'd rather start new but at this point I think it looks doable, my goal is to bring it back to flying condition, with a decent finish and enjoy a Nobler that's all. It weighs no motor with the wheels 31.5 oz. adding in a 10 oz fox 35 and refinishing should bring it between 42 and 45 oz I estimate.

Your thoughts? Recommendations?


Offline peabody

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2018, 09:27:28 AM »
Rob was a superb builder and flyer....
I wager the Nobler was built using a Top Flite kit as a base.
I believe that Rob used silkspan and dope.

I think I saw Rob fly this at a Coxsackie  event.

Have fun!

Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2018, 10:12:00 AM »
Had a chance to take a closer look at the Gieseke Nobler. As Matt suggested checking the fuse nose I found no movement or evidence of cracks, it's solid. The repair was done well without building up the exterior, it appears an incision or section was removed and replaced so stiffening was probably added. Sanding the area with some clear and epoxy lite will probably clean it up nicely before finishing it.

The wing covering is not silk or tissue, whatever it was it's very stiff and brittle. Removing it does tend to pull the caps strips taking some of the rib with it. I may have to scribe and sister in the outer edge of the ribs with a 1/8 strip to achieve the original rib shape to support the new cap strips. I might by a rib set for this. I haven't tried running a blade between the rib and the cap strip this may work without rib damage, the ribs are fragile.  The wing structure is sound with no flexing or movement.

The lead outs are solid wire, I've never installed solid wire but these and the bell crank appear to be ok, I cannot see the method he used to secure the bell crank. I gave them a good pull and it appears ok. The control movement is smooth with equal throw, the elevator is around 35 degrees with the flaps at 34.  I'm considering leaving the wire and the controls as is rather than cutting thru underside of the fuse and wing to change everything out. Your thoughts on this?

The motor mounts are solid with no cracks and the blind mounting nuts are in place and secure. It's set up for a Fox 35. I'd rather not replace the tank. Think I'll pressure test it and pump acetone thru it until it comes out clear. Done this in the past with good results, any negative experience here?

I don't like recovering the wing and control surfaces with the flaps and elevator installed, wish I could remove them but they are secure with a pull test I did at each hinge. Except for one nylon hinge on the wing trailing edge where the balsa has lifted probably from impact the hinges are solid and none are broken.

The main gear bulk head is solid with no movement.

I'd like to install a complete new finish starting with bare wood but I'm going to have to decide how far I want to go in removing the finish material the builder installed on the closed surfaces. What ever is on the wings is on the solid areas. It all may loosen and come off using lacquer thinner or acetone but I don't want to comprise the structure in weakening the glue. I can run my thumb nail along the wing fillets and they break thru, he may have used the old Ambroid here??

I'd rather start new but at this point I think it looks doable, my goal is to bring it back to flying condition, with a decent finish and enjoy a Nobler that's all. It weighs no motor with the wheels 31.5 oz. adding in a 10 oz fox 35 and refinishing should bring it between 42 and 45 oz I estimate.

Your thoughts? Recommendations?

Here's my take on it; Get  yourself a gallon of acetone and a roll of paper towels. Cut them into quarters and soak them with acetone (one at a time). Start rubbing off the paint until you get ALL of it off.

Then you can start repainting it. Personally, I'd cut into it to inspect the control system. And as long as you're doing that, I'd also change out the tank. I've had to many problems with "old" tanks...... And I've learned to make ALL my tanks removable.

Good luck, Jerry

PS: Every time I do this I swear I won't do it again but.... HB~>

Offline Steve Dwyer

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2018, 10:27:01 AM »
I can easily wipe the paint off it's the paper he covered everything solid with I'm concerned about.  I'll have to check this out maybe the paper can stay with out lifting and be cleared and painted over.

A gallon of Acetone I'll be flying before I even get to the field. Being funny here, I'm well aware of the need of a respirator and fan in the garage to use this stuff.

I'm considering replacing the tank, perhaps we should take a vote on the controls. I have no idea what he used for control linkage either.



Steve

Offline EddyR

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2018, 10:30:30 AM »
 The wing looks like it is covered with jap tissue. It is very thin.
 I would not rebuild a plane with a broken nose. The old finish will haunt you when putting on the new finish.
   Just walk away from rebuilding it. I have done it and it is a very big job.
Ed
Locust NC 40 miles from the Huntersville field

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2018, 11:23:02 AM »
Years ago I tried to restore my Veco Thunderbird wit the up right Fox 35 Stunt.  The covering was a big hassle trying to remove and every rib I touched would break.   Then I tried to remove the oil in the engine compartment.  Also the old Ambroid was coming loose in places I couldn't get to.  Finally hung it on the wall and it stays there. I now have the box and parts that the great late Marvin Denny used to build Veco Thunderbirds.   Also has his notes. D>K
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Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #20 on: November 09, 2018, 05:54:19 PM »
A nail in the rafters , Horizontal , no head - or 1/8 wire , or suchlike ,

to hang the wing vertical - fuse horizontal . A bit of weight ( your Arm ) on the fuse & you can check if theres five yards or 5 thou slack in the controls .sounds like he was a A1 top notch builder , zero slack would mean theyre done rather well - presumably the mounts and all .
Highly Likely .

Possable with say 1 1/2 in. lap , to put cable leadouts from halfway out . Hardly worth it unless your always walking into walls .

COVERING - I reckon just a fresh blade , trim the edges of the OPEN BAYS , leave the tissue on the cap strips too .

A good wipe down with Meths or maybe Acetone - The later windy says is toxic - hygro skin whatever - SO WEAR GLOVES .

AS all of the coverd surfaces'd be flat & smooth & faired in - Just the OPEN BAYS recovered - would be chronologically renumerative  S?P :##

Without initially faffing about with a fantabulous paint job , youll have a airworthy beater your not afraid to give heaps in blowy conditions .

Then get going on a from scratch concours job .While the one theres finish hardens up . A fill in for the spare hours you can knock any
lumps and dings outa the one there - and months down the line , consider - piece by piece - getting a bit of paint sprayed here & there .

( Typipical Hot Car of Bike build - a trial asembly - test & tuning predates a partial strip to tart it up with a bit of paint & polish .

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What you have their is NOT a piece of junk . but Id seriously look & consider ways of minimising disruption . Even glueing the rib bits back .
Recaping thems a big pain best avoided .
looks like itd easy get to a straight light airworthy airframe ,
giving you the opportunity to create your own masterpiece from scratch , and Learn the Ropes in the air with that - meantime .  S?P >:D ;D

The more you hack it about the longer itll take . unnesesarilly ,
like wot when someone takes a vehical to bits . . . . $ $ $ $ $ later  it might look better , but unless it was buggered it might not go as well .

And ow it goes is more important than how it looks .  f~ f~

Offline Air Ministry .

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #21 on: November 09, 2018, 06:00:03 PM »
P S . paint takes months to harden up & so on , Id keep a touch up just to the fuse repairs initially .And do the stages sequentially tarting it up
ONCE ITS AIRWORTHY - and flying .

Tissue Edges over the open bays'd fair in easily , with a sanding block . Tissue is only a few thou thick, maybe 0.004 measured . undoped .

Fair in after the first two coats , at the edges .

If you strip it all off , youll be going till christmass , refinishing it . And NOT This Christmass . Either .

P S S ;

Build ' according to Gieske : Bob . ,

the FLAPS should have NO SLACK . ZERO . Nada .

The ELEVATORS should have 1/8 to 1/4 Freeplay , at the Trailing Edge .
Thus they kick up & down , or the FLAPS move , elevator held static .

Fasten the Leadouts and a finger on the Flap trailing edge should get zero free movement . The Elevator should have decerable free movement . Details in Magazine on Gieske Nobler info thread .
« Last Edit: November 10, 2018, 06:16:38 PM by Matt Spencer »

Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2018, 08:03:16 PM »
Interesting thread about the Nobler.
I spent a lot of time with George Aldrich, both at Muncie in 1997 and VCS in 1998. That’s us at the Texas Roadhouse in Muncie, with John Brodak and his son Joe in the background. He was one interesting and knowledgeable guy.
We were working together to develop some new front bushings for the Fox stunt and combat engines. After many trials, I settled on a bushing grade manganese bronze, formulated for high-speed sliding applications.
But, back to the Nobler. He told me some interesting stories. He said early flights were with a VECO 35, three bolt backplate and small exhaust, turning a Tornado Plasticote pressed wood propeller. But, he said he hated the noise – keep in mind that since he flew clockwise, the exhaust on that particular engine faced the pilot. He later hooked up with Fox and started using the 35 – now the exhaust pointed away from him! He also started using the Top-Flite 10-6 wooden props.
He also enlightened me with more interesting facts about the Nobler. When I told him that mine (the Brodak version) weighed around 34 ounces, he said it would fly “like a PIG”.  Yeah, he was right. After describing the flight characteristics, he said “Add some weight and make sure that the flap travel is no more than 75% of the elevator travel. If you want it to fly right, it should weigh 44 ounces minimum”. I doubted him at first but decided to take his advice. Guess what – HE WAS RIGHT. The plane flew great. A let a few people try it and they were surprised at how easy it was to fly smoothly and do a decent pattern. I should have given it to a really accomplished flyer like Palko or Banjock to see how it would perform. By the way, Jim Damerell gave me similar advice. Reflecting on more of George’s comments, he mentioned that the best flying Nobler he ever had weighed just under 50 ounces and was powered by a stock Fox 35.

Offline Lyle Spiegel

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #23 on: November 11, 2018, 05:12:30 PM »
If you have interest in a short kit of Gieske Nobler, see this link. I think it is from Spain. They advertise as laser cut . http://modelclworld.blogspot.com/p/35-46.html
Lyle Spiegel AMA 19775

Offline Peter Grabenstein

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #24 on: November 11, 2018, 05:24:42 PM »
If you have interest in a short kit of Gieske Nobler, see this link. I think it is from Spain. They advertise as laser cut . http://modelclworld.blogspot.com/p/35-46.html


Yep from Spain but the say ….."no disponible" what says "not available".
You may have to order a batch of 50 kits to get them started again.
Not sure if they have contest balsa available ?.

 H^^
Peter


« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 06:19:55 PM by Peter Grabenstein »
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Online Bob Hunt

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #25 on: November 12, 2018, 05:08:17 AM »
I have a friend who has an original and complete Green Box Nobler kit. He wants to know what the market value is for that kit. Anyone know?

Bob Hunt

Offline gene poremba

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #26 on: November 12, 2018, 07:12:51 AM »

 Bob, there are 2 listed on the Bay right now. Both have buy it now prices. One is in good condition(box) $125, the other one the box is rough, but the contents look ok, $56. …..Gene

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #27 on: November 12, 2018, 07:13:57 AM »
Thanks, Gene; I'll let him know!

Bob

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Re: Nobler - History
« Reply #28 on: November 12, 2018, 08:40:30 AM »
the kit from Spain shows it  is unavailable as a full kit. The short kit shows price of 80 Euro.
Lyle Spiegel AMA 19775


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