Newby...question on vintage plane

[AT1984]

I'm thinking of starting a new hobby...C/L flying. I've been on another board (RCG), and my many questions were answered. I think it's something I want to get into. I've built 1/16th scale drag race models, and "messed around" with both nitro and electric R/C cars about 10 years ago. I love tinkering with the small engines, and love building stuff.    

I saw a "Vintage" kit on the "big" auction site, and the price was, let's just say..."up there". I don't know for sure if I WOULD buy it, but the plane is really interesting. Beautiful, as a matter of fact.

The kit was an Eagle "Dreamer", with all the parts and the plans, box, etc. Does anyone have any pictures of a built up Dreamer?

Thanks in advance.

Allen Tucker

[ChrisSarnowski]

There's an advertisement for the model in this thread but no photograph.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=16523.0

You probably want to start with something that you don't mind crashing.
Also someone to teach you how to fly - it's easier that way.

-Chris

[Tim Wescott]

Get the kit if you want, but then put it on a shelf until you're ready for it.

If you want to get into C/L flying, here's my humble opinion of what to do:

• Get a trainer.  Preferably an almost ready to fly one, unless you're really confident about diving in and learning a lot of new techniques.  You already build models, so you have the attitude and over half the skills you need, so you can probably get away with just getting a kit for a trainer.
• Build it (or assemble it, if it's an ARF).  If you build from a kit, save those plans, and make tracings of any parts that aren't on the plans.  You'll use those later for repairs and/or replacement of the trainer when you smoosh it.
• Look for a club.  Even a C/L friendly R/C club will be good, because they can help you with some of the details -- but experienced C/L fliers are better, because there are some things that are exactly right for R/C that are just plain wrong for C/L.  There's a club listing forum here, or just post your city and state in the open forum and see if there's any potential flying buddies out there
• Learn to fly.  This is much easier with a buddy, or within a club.  If you're learning on your own, expect to crash.  Fly over grass, 'cause dirt breaks engines less than pavement does.  Plan on rebuilding a lot (unless you found a buddy).
• Don't give up.  Flying looks easy when you watch an expert, but if you're teaching yourself expect to go through several planes
• When you can fly without crashing, and finish a plane to do it justice, get that "Dreamer" off the shelf, build it and fly it

[Peter Nevai]

Triple ditto to the above suggestions.

There is no easier way to be turned off the control line hobby than wrecking something you invested alot of skill, effort and love into. Belive me, even if you go the route mentioned above your first wreck will depress the *rap out of you. And to make matters worse it usually happens on your very first flight, perhaps seconds after you are airborn. Now tell me a better way to get discouraged.

So yes,

1. Start off as easy as you can, (Save that kit for later) Get a ARF or other easy to build and maintain airplane.

2. Once you decide on a airplane, DO NOT BUY THE ENGINE YET!, Get on here and ask what engine to get. Listen to the suggestions here and get that engine, prop and tank. You do not have to reinvent the wheel, we suggest engines, tanks, props, fuel (YES FUEL) and stuff because there is generations of hard learned experience with this stuff, Another bummer is to endlessly have to mess with engine settings and the like rather than flying and enjoying the hobby. Especially in the Engine Area is where RC advice and practice doe not apply.

3. IF a club is not around, try to find at least one flying buddy, one that has Control Line experience, unless all you want him for is to launch the airplane. Getting hooked up with at least one experienced CL flyer can avoid worlds of hurt, because they can spot maistakes and test fly your newest aqusition to spot trouble that would at this stage result in a crash if you had attempted to fly the plane alone.

Remember in RC you have the entire sky to make a mistake in, with CL you are never ever more than 60 feet or so away from the ground. A average CL stunt plane flys around 50 or 60 mph. Now just calculate just how little time it takes to hit the ground from 60 feet travelling at 60mph.

Now let me welcome you and the best of luck!
3.

[ChrisSarnowski]

There are some images of the plans for the Dreamer here:

http://www.model-plans.co.uk/eagle.htm

Tim has very good advice in his post. And Peter too.

-Chris

[Tim Wescott]

It looks like an old speed plane, from the days when folks were avoiding the use of a bellcrank to try to dodge Jim Walker's patent.  Could be a ton-o-fun for speed, as long as you change to a more modern control system.  I'm not a speed maven, but it looks like a much lower aspect ratio than what I'm used to, and of course the aerodynamics are a bit more crude than you'd need now.  Is there a vintage speed class?

[AT1984]

Wow, Thanks for all the replies and advice! I really appreciate it.

I'm going to the "Stunt A Thon" this weekend in my area (Puyallup, WA) which is only 10 minutes from my house. I'll check things out, and ask as many questions as those guys will put up with.

I wasn't clear enough on the "Dreamer" kit...I don't think I'd fly it. I would probably build it, and stick an old "vintage" engine in it. The 'Bay is full of 'em!

Thanks, again!

[EddyR]

At1984
 You will have a great time at the Stunt a Thon. You will get really turned on with the old time models. Ask those there what you should build and ask for help in learning to fly.  I don't think you will have any trouble getting in to the CL hobby.
Ed

[Peter Nevai]

There are some images of the plans for the Dreamer here:

http://www.model-plans.co.uk/eagle.htm

Tim has very good advice in his post. And Peter too.

-Chris

That is so neat, Not something you would want to fly as is out of the box. But it certainly look sweet as a Conversation peice mounted on a nice stand, or sitting on a table or desk with a vintage engine in it. A little motor with wings attached.

[AT1984]

Ed,

I'm sure I'll have fun.

Peter,

That model would look really good on display. That's why I'm curious about it.

[Randy Powell]

Allen,

I'll be at the Stunt-A-Thon this weekend. Look me up.

[Brett Buck]

I'm thinking of starting a new hobby...C/L flying. I've been on another board (RCG), and my many questions were answered. I think it's something I want to get into. I've built 1/16th scale drag race models, and "messed around" with both nitro and electric R/C cars about 10 years ago. I love tinkering with the small engines, and love building stuff.    

  Start with a stunt trainer. I suggest the SIG Skyray 35. Make the kit  and clone it from all-balsa parts a few times, to wind up with 3-4 airplanes. Get a couple of OS 25LAs, set up all the airplanes for that. Build them all simultaneously. Build them neatly but don't worry too much about the appearance. And get a bunch of APC 9-4 props. They don't need a lot of modifications, just check the archives for the numerous posts on the topic.

   Take all the airplanes to the field, and learn to fly basic stunts - loops and eights, and inverted flight. When you crash one of them, pull the next one off the stack, and keep going - don't go home after the first crash. Should be safe flying upright and inside loops the first day, and be at least trying inverted flight the first weekend. During the week, repair, and go back out the next time. Keep going until you are comfortable with all the basic maneuvers.

    Then go off and try to make the airplanes you like.

    I have seen a lot of people start straight with pet projects, or into stunt competition, without first learning the basic flying skills. That makes it much more painful and difficult. If you have been involved with R/C, it's like the poor saps who are only interested in flying a 60-sized P-51. They build it, spend a lot of time, crash off the departure end of the runway on the first attempt, then quit.

    Brett

[AT1984]

Will do, Randy. Thanks!

[Peter Nevai]

 Start with a stunt trainer. I suggest the SIG Skyray 35. Make the kit  and clone it from all-balsa parts a few times, to wind up with 3-4 airplanes. Get a couple of OS 25LAs, set up all the airplanes for that. Build them all simultaneously. Build them neatly but don't worry too much about the appearance. And get a bunch of APC 9-4 props. They don't need a lot of modifications, just check the archives for the numerous posts on the topic.

   Take all the airplanes to the field, and learn to fly basic stunts - loops and eights, and inverted flight. When you crash one of them, pull the next one off the stack, and keep going - don't go home after the first crash. Should be safe flying upright and inside loops the first day, and be at least trying inverted flight the first weekend. During the week, repair, and go back out the next time. Keep going until you are comfortable with all the basic maneuvers.

    Then go off and try to make the airplanes you like.

    I have seen a lot of people start straight with pet projects, or into stunt competition, without first learning the basic flying skills. That makes it much more painful and difficult. If you have been involved with R/C, it's like the poor saps who are only interested in flying a 60-sized P-51. They build it, spend a lot of time, crash off the departure end of the runway on the first attempt, then quit.

    Brett

Ahhh.... The Mass destuction take no prisoners Kung Fu method!!!!   Please excuse Brett, sometimes he forgets his meds! Brett....... come now Brett, time to see that nice man in the white coat.  

[Tim Wescott]

I'm planning on being at the Stunt-a-thon, too (I may only be there on Sunday, though).  I'll be bringing my Skyray as my backup ride, so you can see one.  Brett's being modest: do a web search on "Brett Buck Skyray" for a package of changes to make to your Skyray that'll make it into a much better flying plane.  You'll come up with pages like this one: http://www.aeromaniacs.com/brett.htm.  Many of the references will call out the OS FP20, which is no longer available -- that's why Brett's telling you to use an LA 25.

[Douglas Ames]

Vintage kits have vintage wood and are usually poorly die cut (mass produced).
A perfect example is the Sterling Ringmaster. Buying an original kit is a crap shoot (quality) and pricey. Better to just buy a modern rendition.

[Randy Powell]

See you there, Tim!

[Brett Buck]

I saw a "Vintage" kit on the "big" auction site, and the price was, let's just say..."up there". I don't know for sure if I WOULD buy it, but the plane is really interesting. Beautiful, as a matter of fact.

The kit was an Eagle "Dreamer", with all the parts and the plans, box, etc. Does anyone have any pictures of a built up Dreamer?

     I took a look at the airplane, and, WOW, that is one tiny little airplane for a 60. It's not so much an airplane as an "engine aiming device". I certainly wouldn't want to discourage you from building it, but be advised that it will not be much of a stunt airplane - flying level is about what you should expect with minimal control over landing. It appears to be smaller than a lot of 1/2As. For example, the CG Lil Jumpin Bean, generally considered on the small side for a Golden Bee 049, has a 21" span - this one is 19 1/2"!!!!

     If I was going to build one, I would build it for something like an .061 and completely redesign the structure to keep it under 4 oz. Or about what the batteries weigh for the Olhson 60.

I assume you know that the "through the tubes" control system is unworkable, but with the in-flight weight of the original, it probably doesn't make a whole lot of difference.

     Brett

[Brett Buck]

Ahhh.... The Mass destuction take no prisoners Kung Fu method!!!!   Please excuse Brett, sometimes he forgets his meds! Brett....... come now Brett, time to see that nice man in the white coat.  

   Uh, yeah.

    Brett

[Peter Nevai]

   Uh, yeah.

    Brett

Pssssst, (build 4, get a bunch of motors, a ton of props, and bring em all to the field, expect to weck em all), Brett, your scaring the children, you mus't scare the *rap outta the children.  

Just messin with ya,  and I thought the same thing, a engine with a wing attached..

[Howard Rush]

Allen,

Say hello at the Stuntathon.  I'm the guy with the yellow and orange plane with the annoying hexagons on it.

[PJ Rowland]

When I was learning ( many a moon ago ) we built several things called " rookies " they were standard Fuse with standard Root/Tip same airfoil, No flaps - that was held on with Rubber bands. Standard Squard box design. The beauty of this - was when you crashed, the wings generally fell forward and didnt' break. You can build 4 - 5 Fuselages and be interchanabdle with the wings.

Just another thought - I dont know where you'd get a plan tho.

Dick Steele design

here is a photo of said design ( not of me  )

[Randy Powell]

>> I'm the guy with the yellow and orange plane with the annoying hexagons on it.<<

I thought they were rhomboids.

[AT1984]

For those of you attending the Stunt A Thon: I probably won't be able to make it, both days...which day would be best, for me to check things out/ask questions?

Thanks!

[Bill Little]

Hi Allen,

Welcome to Stunt Hanger and the hobby!  A lot of great advice has already been given, so I won't add much there except to say it is all good.   (BTW: Brett is a past National Champion, you can listen to what he says! LOL!!)  Just remember there is a "learning curve" as in all endeavors.  Being so close to the Stunt a Thon site is a great thing for you.  It will put you in touch with some great guys who will be able to cut that learning curve down for you.  Don't get discouraged from your first attempts, everyone goes through it, but believe me, it is easier now than it was 40-50 years ago.  

One thing I can say with confidence is that this is one of the greatest hobby/sports you can become involved in.  The very "best of the best" are always willing to help which isn't always the case in other venues.  The hobby is full of great people.

Bill

[Ward Van Duzer]

Hardly no better trainer than a Phil Cartier Corehouse "something" with an appropriate sized engine. No ribs, no covering, no dope, no fancy tools (a rubber brush works great!)! Finish with silkspan over foam, Poly Urethane, and a bottle of Elmers!

Go fly!

You can order kits with multiple wings as well!

Go to CORE HOUSE in the vendor's corner on the bottom of this forum.


W.

[Bill Little]

Hardly no better trainer than a Phil Cartier Corehouse "something" with an appropriate sized engine. No ribs, no covering, no dope, no fancy tools (a rubber brush works great!)! Finish with silkspan over foam, Poly Urethane, and a bottle of Elmers!

Go fly!

You can order kits with multiple wings as well!


W.

Great advice, Ward.  I often forget about the "Gotchas" and such, but they are excellent for trainers and practice!  They "take a lickin' and keep on tickin".

Big Bear

[Tim Wescott]

For those of you attending the Stunt A Thon: I probably won't be able to make it, both days...which day would be best, for me to check things out/ask questions?

Here's the flyer:  http://flyinglines.org/11.Stuntathon.Flyer.pdf

I haven't been to this contest, but looking at the flyer here's what I can tell you:

Saturday is going to have more variety, with vintage and profile stunt, plus carrier.  It'll probably be more relaxed, as well.  Sunday is going to give you a better chance at seeing some absolutely stunning models, and some stunning flying to go with it (I, personally, would not be surprised if I 'stunned' the concrete with my model ).

I'm leaning toward recommending Saturday, as you'll get a chance to see carrier as well as stunt.

[AT1984]

Li'l hacker, maybe? I'll be getting opinions this weekend, too...

Thanks!

[Jim Thomerson]

I've seen Lil' Hackers fly and they do loops and 8's and the like very well.  Balance a little nose heavy and they would be a fine fly around in a circle first trainer. 

[jim ivey]

want to start with a vintage trainer? find a " testors freshman 29" very easy build and very easy to learn to fly.  Some manauvers are possible. Climb and dive, inside wing overs and iside loops. all easy to do with this really strong trainer. I believe brodak builds a reasonable copy of the original. No need to pay an arm and leg for an origonal .use a 29-35 size engine a 19 is to small you'll want the extra power later. all you'll need is someone to hold it for you. using a stooge may be tomuch of a challenge for a  beginner.     jim ivey

[Tim Wescott]

Li'l hacker, maybe? I'll be getting opinions this weekend, too...

Did you make it out?

[AT1984]

Tim,

My wife and I came out about 2ish on Saturday, and we enjoyed it! Only stayed a couple of hours, though. I met Dan Rutherford, Mark Scarborough, and Randy Powell. Everyone was pretty busy, so I didn't get much of a chance to get many ideas/opinions on starting out.

My problem is I don't know of anyone in my immediate area that can teach a newby. I'm glad I went, and I'm sure interested in starting out, though!!!

I still don't know which plane to start out with...a Skyray 35 seems like the most suggested (maybe?).

Allen

[Tim Wescott]

What city are you from?  If Puyallup is local for you, then you shouldn't be too far away from a number of fields -- see this link: http://www.flyinglines.org/fields.html.

I can't speak for them, because I'm fairly new to the scene myself, but you may want to contact the NW Skyraiders (assuming you're from the Puget Sound area).  There's a lot of friendly folks up there, who may be willing to lend a hand when they're not distracted by participating in a contest.

Unless you're dirt poor, or already an experienced RC builder, I'd suggest that you get yourself an almost ready to fly (ARF) trainer -- Sig Manufacturing, Top Flight and Hanger 9 sell one each, and Brodak's sells a bazzilion*.  Get an OS LA 25 or Evo 36 for power.  Then find someone to help you learn, and go.

You can learn to fly control line entirely on your own -- I did.  But it takes an almost insane level of determination, and when you're done you'll know all the ends and outs of repairing a severely crashed airplane.  If you just have to go that route, get several of the Blackhawk Models 1/2A kits (or get one and make more from scratch with the kit plans).  Those models are all solid wood, so they'll survive a crash better, and they're a lot easier to repair if you really smoosh them.  They're also cheaper and smaller, but the engines are much more sensitive to dirt and you need to fly on short enough lines that it's a lot harder to keep from getting dizzy when you fly.  On the plus side, if you start with the 1/2A things, then when you do move up to a bigger plane you'll be wondering what all the fuss was about.

* If you get a plane from Brodak your best bet is to call them, tell them your situation, and let them choose a plane.  You don't want to end up with some top-end stunt plane or a racer or some other bad fit -- you want a nice durable trainer.

[AT1984]

Tim,

I'm from Spanaway, WA. Clover Park Tech is only about 12 miles from my house, so that might be an option. Chehalis is 65 miles away, and Arlington is 93 miles away!  I will have to check, and see if the info on Clover Park Tech on FlyingLines is still current. The NW Skyraiders link is "dead", so I don't know about that one! I'd really like to find someone and someplace "local"...

I'm looking at the Hanger 9 site, and found the PT-19 Trainer. To tell you the truth, that sounds like a good deal, with all the stuff it comes with (plane, engine, lines, handle, etc). There isn't a whole lot that needs to be bought to complete it. $150 bucks. By the time I bought a kit (Flight Streak), engine, and everything else from Tower, it's easily over $200. Even a Black Hawk model, with all the added "starting out stuff" would be close to that total...

Would the PT-19 be a good start point? I'm gettin' confused! HaHa...

Allen Tucker

[Tim Wescott]

If you go to the "where the action is" and look for the entries in Washington there'll be a live email link.

I've seen good reviews of the PT-19, although I haven't flown it myself.  It's probably got problems -- but by the time you're good enough to care, you'll be on your second or third plane.  Try starting a new thread on the open forum, and ask about the Hanger 9.