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Author Topic: trimming a forerunner  (Read 1617 times)

Offline Chris Belcher

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trimming a forerunner
« on: December 03, 2013, 10:48:01 AM »
I'm in the process of trimming my forerunner out. Here's where i'm at so far
50 OZ with LA 46 mounted outboard, 6 oz sulivan clunk with muffler pressure attached to uniflow. Engine runs are OK...not great but OK. Leans out a little bout half way through the tank.
The REAL problem is everytime I do a square maneuver I see the top of the wing...the outboard wing rises sharply. My first thought was to add tip weight but when I opened the box there was 1.5 oz already in there! (this is a plane I built 15 years ago and just ressurected). I decided to remove 1/4 oz and was able to do all but the hourglass and clover where before I was constanly fighting slack lines after the hinging on corners. I have moved the lead outs where it's pretty even all around now but still get the outboard wing rising up right after I hit a corner.
 Question is should i keep removing tip weight 1/4 oz at a time?...why would REMOVING tip weight stop the hinging?...if that is the correct term for this/ like I said my first instinct was to ADD but it just didn't feel right and did fly better after removing some tip weight. I know how complicated this all is and how everything interacts with everything else. Any ideas?

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: trimming a forerunner
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2013, 12:39:36 PM »
The Forerunner was designed to have the engine cylinder inboard, which means it would require a lot more tipweight than if the cylinder was outboard, as you state yours is, and also the one I just sold to Duke Johnson on Saturday. So, taking tipweight out makes sense in the case of yours.

I recall seeing Jerry Eichten flying (quite well) the one that Duke now has, and don't recall it having any problems...and it was a very windy day in a site that was renowned for weird turbulence.  But it was also a very long time ago. So, I'm not sure if Duke's new 4runner will have the same problem or not.   D>K Steve
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Offline 55chevr

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Re: trimming a forerunner
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2013, 07:40:25 PM »
I love the Forerunner ... I built my knock off from a kit I have and mine is electric and stays out well on reverse rotation ... The original I have not flown but it has an FP40 mounted inboard as the plans call for.
Joe
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: trimming a forerunner
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2013, 08:43:10 PM »
The REAL problem is everytime I do a square maneuver I see the top of the wing...the outboard wing rises sharply. My first thought was to add tip weight but when I opened the box there was 1.5 oz already in there! (this is a plane I built 15 years ago and just ressurected). I decided to remove 1/4 oz and was able to do all but the hourglass and clover where before I was constanly fighting slack lines after the hinging on corners. I have moved the lead outs where it's pretty even all around now but still get the outboard wing rising up right after I hit a corner.
 Question is should i keep removing tip weight 1/4 oz at a time?...why would REMOVING tip weight stop the hinging?...if that is the correct term for this/ like I said my first instinct was to ADD but it just didn't feel right and did fly better after removing some tip weight. I know how complicated this all is and how everything interacts with everything else. Any ideas?

    Take out some rudder offset (if any) or move the leadouts back, maybe?  If I visualize it correctly, there's a good chance that the airplane yaws in at you on outside corners, skewing the outboard wing forward, and causing it to temporarily gain lift. This is a pretty common condition (usually misattributed to precession). What is likely happening is that the rudder is trying to drive the nose out in normal conditions, so the leadouts are forward of the ideal position to force the nose back in. When you do a hard maneuver, the extra line tension causes the nose to move inboard, causing a left yaw motion and left roll.

   The typical solution is usually to try taking out tip weight, which doesn't help very much but does play havoc with the trim and the line tension everywhere else. Which is roughly what you are experiencing.

     This is exactly why I suggest setting the leadouts at the calculated position, and then adjusting the rudder to minimize this transient yaw.

    And alternative possibility is that you didn't seal the flap and elevator hinge lines, and you are getting a differential gap that closes up on the outboard wing (or opens up on the inboard wing) when the flap moves up. The solution is simple, seal the hinge lines then start over.

      Brett

p.s. As I recall, the Forerunner is equal-span, so you can expect to have to use A LOT of tipweight, everything else being equal. With the engine mounted outboard, that helps a bit, but it's not at all unusual to require 2-2.5, even 3 oz of tipweight. You don't know how much is built in just because of material and finishing asymmetry (unless you use the counterbalance method), but don't be surprised if you need a lot.
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 11:51:16 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline 55chevr

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Re: trimming a forerunner
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2013, 09:08:36 PM »
Brett -  Forerunner is equal span ... you are correct.


Joe
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Offline Chris Belcher

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Re: trimming a forerunner
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2013, 09:57:39 AM »
 Is precession that the excess tip weight is causing inertia to make the outboard tip to want to continue in a straight line causing the yaw or roll? cuz that is what I thought  so I removed tip weight and it did improve.... I will seal the hinge lines...can't believe I have not already done so..that helped a lot on my old bucaneer. It's been 17 years since i last flew and have actually forgotten some of the "rules" that I used to know so well. This is the hardest plane I've ever had to trim. It is my second forerunner and the first was just awesome..adjust rake, add some tail weight and boom..there it was...point and shoot. This one sat in my garage for 17 years in the heat and cold of Texas....maybe I've got a warp? there is 0 rudder offset and 0 thrust offset...but of course I will double check all of this. I bet a trip to Samuel Park in Garland where I used to fly would yield some good results...met Tom Farmer out there and in one day he took my bucanner from OK to a 3rd in a contest a week later...his first sug was to SEAL THE HINGE LINES! Funny ol' world idn't it?

Online Brett Buck

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Re: trimming a forerunner
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 12:46:14 PM »
Is precession that the excess tip weight is causing inertia to make the outboard tip to want to continue in a straight line causing the yaw or roll? cuz that is what I thought  so I removed tip weight and it did improve.... I will seal the hinge lines...can't believe I have not already done so..that helped a lot on my old bucaneer. It's been 17 years since i last flew and have actually forgotten some of the "rules" that I used to know so well. This is the hardest plane I've ever had to trim. It is my second forerunner and the first was just awesome..adjust rake, add some tail weight and boom..there it was...point and shoot. This one sat in my garage for 17 years in the heat and cold of Texas....maybe I've got a warp? there is 0 rudder offset and 0 thrust offset...but of course I will double check all of this. I bet a trip to Samuel Park in Garland where I used to fly would yield some good results...met Tom Farmer out there and in one day he took my bucanner from OK to a 3rd in a contest a week later...his first sug was to SEAL THE HINGE LINES! Funny ol' world idn't it?

    Without the hinge lines sealed, just about anything could be going on, so do that first and then we will see.

    I would suggest forgetting about the precession entirely. I think you can explain it entirely with line tension changes and the leadout position. At some point, there will be a little bit of residual yaw that you can't get rid of, and that might be due to precession.

    Think of it this way - assume that the leadouts are too far forward, and in level flight, you have some pressure on the rear side of the leadout guide holes forcing the yaw angle more to the left that it would be otherwise. At a constant speed and line tension, the airplane stays at some steady yaw angle, with the leadouts trying to force the nose in at you, and the aerodynamics (fin/rudder/fuselage and extra drag on the outboard wing) forcing it to the right, and it stops when one torque cancels the other.  When you go to maneuver, moving the controls temporarily puts in extra line tension, while at the same time, the airplane slows down, reducing the aerodynamic effects. So now the leadout torque goes up, the aerodynamic torque in the other direction goes down, so it yaws in at you. Once it gets started, it take a while to stop, so you end up crabbed sideways, with the outboard wing forward and the inboard wing back, causing a roll torque to the left.

    Other potential causes are things like stab tilt, stab skew WRT the wing, differential flap flexing, fuselage twisting or bending causing stab tilt or skew, on and on.

    Taking out tipweight would certainly help this particular issue, and you may end up taking out more later. But taking it out to fix this one issue, in one place, will tend to make everything else worse. You need to get it to work the same way on insides and outsides before you can really tell what you need.

      Brett

Offline Chris Belcher

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Re: trimming a forerunner
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2013, 02:52:22 PM »
OK..step 1...seal the hinge lines....step 2..wait for good weather. It's supposed to be in the 30s for the next 6 days here in Dallas with ice and sleet.Thanks for the help everyone...

Online Brett Buck

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Re: trimming a forerunner
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 06:09:15 PM »
OK..step 1...seal the hinge lines....step 2..wait for good weather. It's supposed to be in the 30s for the next 6 days here in Dallas with ice and sleet.

 What?!  Aren't you serious about stunt? Why, back in my day, we used to walk 5 miles in hip-deep snow just to get the flying field! We didn't let a little thing like frostbite stand in our way.

   Kids today, what can you say?

    Brett

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: trimming a forerunner
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2013, 06:56:28 PM »
You forgot it was up hill all the way. LL~ LL~ LL~
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline 55chevr

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Re: trimming a forerunner
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2013, 09:17:36 PM »
Doc .... It was uphill going both ways.

Joe
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Offline Chris Belcher

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Re: trimming a forerunner
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 02:03:29 PM »
hmmmm....skis on the landing gear...easy


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