New stunt plane for US Nats - The PITBULL - FINISHED PHOTOS

[PJ Rowland]

So you have seen the Bear ,Flown a Shark , Played around with a Thunderbird, loved the Cobra - Well there is a new plane to add to that list.

I call it - The PIT BULL

This idea started in my head a few years ago - about 3 or 4 - and came to a full head of steam during a previous discussion on another Board -

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=15930.0

Updating a model to fly better in the modern era

My Father needed a Model to fly in Advanced in the US Nats in July - So this is what I designed and the story of how it came to be..


This was a fantastic thread the start by Jim pollock read:
It is my considered opinion that the easiest classic airplane to update for modern level performance would be........Ta Da!  The Shark .45.  All you need to do is add a pipe tunnel, stick in a PA .61,65, or 76 and increase the stab/elevator span to 26" and wa-la... a Modern day Precision Aerobatic plane that could do meaningful battle with the likes of Impacts, TP's, Infinities and so forth.  Does anyone else think another classic plane could be so easily converted?

Although I didnt agree with the Skark . It did get the idea's flowing around in my head for another animal - and doing exactly that - Creating a modern day version along classic sized dimensions.

I had very good success ( winning 3 Classic Stunt comps at the Nats ) with my Nobler - Which has been dubbed the .61 Nobler - For obvious reasons - It runs a Stalker .61 Lite.  I have continued with that tried and tested Formula with my 2011 Classic Stunter A Gieseke Nobler again fitted with the same powerplant - you can see photos and some brief details of that here : http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?topic=20651.0


But this is not about that right now - Its about how I arrived at this aircraft

It started life out as a 1951 Nobler - this WAS going to be the basis for another Classic model - with a different engine - but it was only in the stage of cutting out ribs and had some of a fuse done.

Elevator has been increased to 22.5 Inches
WingSpan is 48 Inches

I have reduced the size of the flaps a fair amount closer to that of the Gieseke Nobler but I using a similar ratio to modern planes .

Flap Root : 2"
Tip Root 7/8

Assymerty has been reduced from the original nobler length down to only 1/2" - With modern take on Larger outboard flap - And reduced wing panel both done with 1/2 " Assym

Nose Moment : 9"
Tail Moment : 13.5 "
Full Span Flaps
Adjustable everything incl fin

2 Degree's Engine offset
1 Degree Downthrust
1/4 degree + wing incidence
Stab Zero
Wing Area : 515 sq
Carbon Landing gear. Ball link controls - 4 Inch Bellcrank

Stalker .61 Engine

Expected Final Flying Weight : 52 "
Wing loading : 15.1

Full Take apart Hardware.

( My .61 Nobler was 55oz and feels/flies amazing. )


Now : Background history - My father is coming with me for the US NATS in july - he very much wanted to fly in advanced - but it was going to be quite difficult to take 3 models with us ( My Open ship + Classic ) so adding his would make 3. So we put the call out to fellow fliers to donate a model - and I had so many grateous offers - from Brett Buck to the very Kind offerings of Mike Scholtes - Who's model Vector was a beauty. Unfortunatly the logistics of Muncie - and with so many people living quite long distances away from the field - Getting the model to Muncie was proving difficult.
It was no-one's fault It was just logistically difficult - and I tried to thank everyone whom was involved in trying to get Dad to fly. Alas it was not to be.

I had never built a Take apart model before - So I wasnt keen on the idea - ( Although not difficult - its like anything new - you would like to have a trial shot at any new technology before you unleash it on a US Nats.. ) So I wasnt to keen on building a new model Take apart..

Beside from the fact that - I still needed to finish my 2 models off paint , sand trim ect ect.. - So building a new one really was out of the question.

Dad built my models for years ( until I was 17 / 18 ) about the same time his eyes started to fail him - detailed work - the type required for fine modelling was proving difficult. However despite that - He still loved to tinker and build.. After all 40 years of modelling - He can still get the job done.

So He said to me " Why dont I have a go at building myself a Take apart model for America - we can use part of the Nobler wing / fuse and go from there "
Time really was against us - so I said basically I didnt have time to take on another project - If you want to have a go - and see how far you get ,be my guest.

I looked up all the information on Take aparts Special thanks to a fellow Aussie - Joe Parisi who has built a bunch of T/A models for oversea's gave me invaluable advice and alot of Photo's of his system. THANKS JOE! -  So I Printed it all out and gave him a big pile and said " Make sense of this I need to Sand..
"
I will also sight Kim Doherty's thread on building Take apart models as very Helpful also.

I went in one direction he went in the other..

Like all modellers Dad is very apt at looking at any problem and devising a solution - So the take apart technology was based on the tried and true method of the Paul Walker impact style - Wing dropping out as a whole - held in with 4/40 bolts and Peg setup at the Front and 2 x 4/40 bolts at the rear.

Dad came up with the functionality of the Takeapart design - and built most of it. For a 1st time effort at take apart - I am pleased with the results. I did all the fillets and did wing alignment and the final bolt assembly. It was easy in the end - And although not as Nice as a fit as say a Yatsenko - Im pleased enough to try it again for a Future model.

We decided not to make anything else removable - as Box size was reduce enough for this one ship.

I drew up plans for the PitBull for him - ( He wanted just to built a Nobler as is.. ) I put my foot down and said that I had a chance to design a ship that was new and could test out all sorts of Theories.. Namely Updating a plan to fly in the modern Era.

Within a few weeks the model was taking shape - I helped out with most of the critical parts - Sources components from the Internet, but tried to insist he do most of the work. I did help out with the Finish - Dad has not had any exposure to Carbon Veil, which is my method of choice for Finish. The rest is PTG Certified.

I called it the Pitbull for a few reasons ; 1 Namely I think It really DOES look like a Pitbull! We wanted to conceal the rear Exhaust Setup - With my normal Classic models I usually carve out some of the wing and rear firewall and countersink it down so it sits flat with a standard Nobler Fuse without making it any deeper than the plans called for.
However due to the Take apart hardware in the front - there was simply no room - or structural room to carve out the pipe to suit - so it had to dangle down a little - It really looks like the BIG JOB from the side - but I made it a little more of a transition.

I was thinking of : Its Small - Aggressive - with a Big front - is Stocky looking but powerful. When you think of the Word Pit Bull you automatically get a sense of what to feel - or expect. Im not completely sure how good this will be - Based on my previous experiences I think it can only BE an improvement. - Is it the next world beater ? I doubt it.. But it might answer a few questions - and ask a few at the same time.

Dad is Very excited to have a model he can fly In Advanced - Just to be part of the US Nationals experience for him will be a dream come true.

Just a Quick side note : He was in attendance as part of the Australian Support Team when I Came over in 2004 for the Worlds - what was not common knowledge was that he had lots of heart problems prior to leaving for America. Whilst in USA ( Half way through the US NATS I might add - I was practicing and he said he was going to get a drink and I didnt see him for HOURS and I mean HOURS.. - The heat of the Tarmac and the Stress of Watching me fly in the Worlds was all to much as He ended up in Ball State Hospital with severe Angina. The Muncie FireDept were amazing to him. We flew back in Late July - Sept 13 He went in for a triple Bypass open heart Surgery 2004. He didnt think he would ever see another US Nats - But 6 years later - Here we are.

For those interested - We are happy for anyone wanting to have a Test Flight Whilst we are in Muncie.

Just remember - She bites......

Here we have it : THE PITBULL





















Proud Owner :

[Matt Colan]

That's a very cool looking ship PJ!!  I look foward to flying against your dad in July, and seeing this new ship perform! 

[Randy Powell]

I don't know. I kinda like the pajamas.

Man, how many plane to you have in primer?

[Allan Perret]

"2 Degree's Engine offset
1 Degree Downthrust
1/4 degree + wing incidence
Stab Zero"

Dont understand your wing incidence.    
1/4° +  relative to what?  
I thought the wing was always "the zero" reference used to measure engine thrust and/or stab incidence.

I like the looks of that Bulldog. 
Would like to see picture of the custom muffler.

[Wynn Robins]

I don't know. I kinda like the pajamas.

thats how PJ got his name - dear old dad is always in Pajamas   

[PJ Rowland]

Thanks guys.

Randy - Ive only got 2 planes in Primer..

Remember the Classic ship is now in paint as of 3 - 4 days ago   
And I only put this in primer last night..
It was almost 3 ready to go in primer..

I actually got the PJ from Peter James or Peter Junior ( My dad's names Peter also )

Allan :
1/4 deg + wing relative to the Wing Centreline.
1 Degree Downthrust relative to Zero.

This technique has been used by RC Aerobatics guys for a while - It creates a similar effect to adding stab Indience - I've used similar ratios of indidence on all my ships since the mid 90's - I never have problems with tracking or hunting. Its a personal preference - Incidence has been debated over and over on here you can thread search for more info.
Custom muffler is cool.


Thanks Matt : I look forward to meet you - Dad will try his best but he's not Top 20 Material ( By his own admission ) He is there to have fun and enjoy himself.

[wwwarbird]

 Really great looking plane overall PJ, I like the regular bubble canopy instead of a long turtledeck. In the third photo, the nose profile and canopy kind of looks like a more modern and more sleek Big Job. I'm gonna nit-pick and say that the wheelpants look a bit goofy to me though, either they're too small or the wheels are too big.

[ash]

Wow, that really does resemble a pitbull!

Nice work

[john e. holliday]

I love it.  It does look mean and aggresive.  Tell your Dad to bring the pajamas so Howard Rush will look good in his clown suit.  Also tell him to remember Muncie in the summer is hot and to drink lots of fluids, plus stay in shade as muchas possible.  Did I say I like the plane.  Hope you put some details down on paper other than the printed word.   

[Steve Helmick]

I also like the looks of the Pitbull...especially the extended lower cowl. A bit undecided about the canopy...a bit too flat, I think. Randy Powell often does his that way, and I always think the proportions are whacked.  Gonna paint dog hair on it? Or just rub the dog on it while the paint is wet? Steve

[Mike Scholtes]

PJ, you are a brave man to pose for this audience in your pajamas and granny glasses. At least that's one interpretation.

You have one outstanding and unique model there. The relatively large wheels will come in handy since you will probably be practicing on grass at Muncie and need wheels to handle soft surface operations.

I doubt we need to tell a couple of Aussies how to prepare for hot weather. The humidity is a bear though.

Is the final color scheme set yet, or will it evolve as you start laying on the tape?

[Randy Powell]

Did I mention that it's very cool? I like the design.

[PJ Rowland]

Thanks everyone..

Just so I can clear the air - I am only 30 - that is my father in the Pajamas that you can see. Its his model. I designed it - built some of it - but its his for most purposes.. - I hope people dont think Im some old dude in glasses ?

This is me :



And this is Daddie !



One more of him flying - He certainly does enjoy flying - He is trying to get better but never really wanted to get serious about compeition.. Here is him flying another model - an Aerobat. You can see the joy on his face - this is what aeromodelling is about .




And this was the model he was flying : A little Aerobat - He built is becasue he crashed one as a child and Loved it - Go figure.
 


Now onto the design elements :

The Canopy Height - I really did want to Slick it out a little more. I didnt want to see it looking like a european style model with large Canopy - So It was cut down until I sized it right by eye. I think it looks quite Nice - Sleek and agressive. Remeber this started like as a 1951 Man Nobler. We also were careful that it was to be taken oversea's in a box so making it more narrow was a parameter. Hence the Smaller Tail. I did mock it up with a Genesis style Tail - Then tried it like the Big job with modern Finlettes.. Although it looked good - I would have been stepping on the Asthetic toes of another great new design.. a Low riding toad as its known...

So I settled on that Fin.


The wheels - Now that was an interesting design problem... From the front - It looks full size PA Stunter - Yet you look down the fuse and she dissapears into something smaller - Like the Big job - Or like its Namesake - PitBull..  I sized it up with different sets of Wheel pants - everything from Full sized - to No pants - to smaller pants.... Asthetically it looked " right " with those sizes.... They are standard 2 " Wheels - Which will work perfect off grass..

When you see it photographed ( or sitting ) on grass it sits down a little so it doesnt look as " goofy " as someone said..

Design is an interesting process..

Thanks for the kind words - Colour scheme is NEVER done on the fly - Ive mocked it up already - Green and Gold trim with white base coat and basic ink lines.

More to follow in the next few weeks..

[charlie]

PJ, could you please give a brief description of your finishing method up to the point it appears in the photos above?  How do you apply the carbon veil and what is the white primer that you have used?
Thanks  Charlie

[PerttiMe]

Aerobat

That little Aerobat looks cute. Is there a kit/plan/drawing/more pictures/whatever available for it somewhere?

... and I like the low canopy too 

[PJ Rowland]

Charlie : I HIGHLY recommend you seek out the Article by Phil Granderson on the DIVA. Its highly informative. I follow the same structure.
Sand down the frame - Apply thinned dope 50 / 50 Sand, redo till happy.

Apply Carbon Veil with thinned dope - wait a night - give a light sand with 800 more thinned dope. More sanding with block 800.

Full strength dope with Tap plastics powder - apply - wait for it to dry - Sand with 600.
Apply black dope if you want to get a block sand out.
I apply white primer - wet sand that with 1200
Then spray VERY thinned clear 80 % Then sand with 1500 + 2000

I am certainly NOT an expert in this field - I humbly stand before my mentors / Peers so the likes of Phil G, Randy, Jim ,Windy ect.. - I have extensivley read Phils article in question and regularly seek out the advice of Randy Powell - and have followed that for a few planes now and its a great way to get a really solid finish if your thorough and diligent with your sanding and prepping.

You really want to get that article - it will explain alot - In much more detail. Its one of those things once you do it enough times - you dont think too much about it.

[charlie]

PJ Two questions.  Where was the article by Phil Granderson published?  And what is tap plastic powder.

Thanks,

Charlie

[John Leidle]

   It looks a lot like the plane I'm building. the rudder is a bit different but other than that similer.
  john

[PJ Rowland]

Charlie the article was in Stunt news - A search of here may find it.

Tap plastics :

http://www.tapplastics.com/shop/product.php?pid=43&

[Wynn Robins]

Aerobat

That little Aerobat looks cute. Is there a kit/plan/drawing/more pictures/whatever available for it somewhere?

... and I like the low canopy too 

looks lik the Frog Aerobat.....sent a plan to you.

PJ - Plane looks AWESOME - looking forward to seeing it in the "Aussie" Colour Scheme........

[Randy Powell]

Nichon works pretty well. I used to get talc from Tap Plasitcs, but they stopped carrying it. They have Zinc Sterate too.

[Bryan Higgins]

Very aggressive lines and has a nice stance.  This one looks like a winner good job PJ and Family.

[ash]

sand with 800 more thinned dope. More sanding with block 800.
 Sand with 600.
 wet sand that with 1200
 Then sand with 1500 + 2000

Are the sandpaper grits you quote in CAMI (American) grading system or P (Euro/Aus/NZ) grading system?

There's quite a difference for the same numbers, so if you're sanding primer with P800, you're making things a lot harder than they need to be and possibly harming your intercoat adhesion.


http://www.woodworkingshop.com/001c/html/pdf/grit_chart.pdf

[Allan Perret]

Phil Granderson finishing article was in Model Aviation, Jan 2007.  Buffing article Mar 2007.

[PJ Rowland]

Thanks.

[PerttiMe]

looks lik the Frog Aerobat.....sent a plan to you.

Thanks!

I see that a kit is being sold in UK, by Derek Foxwell's "Old School Model Aeroplane Factory". Sticks and Tissue newsletter has a mention: http://cmac.synthasite.com/resources/mags/ST/10/ST48.pdf

He has the kits on ebay too: http://myworld.ebay.co.uk/oldschoolmodelaeroplanefactory/

[john e. holliday]

That is where I got my "Thunderbolt" kit from.   Actually a short kit.  Very good wood and easy to build.

[charlie]

As I do not have access to any Model Aviation magazines, is there anyone out there able to scan the Phil Granderson finishing article from Model Aviation, January 2007 and email it to me?
Yours hopefully,  Charlie

[charlie]

Thanks to the kindness of Allan Perret I now have this article.
Charlie

[PJ Rowland]

Just to give an update :

This model has now been painted and is now in clear.  - Pics to follow once I upload them.

[proparc]

Thanks everyone..

Just so I can clear the air - I am only 30 - that is my father in the Pajamas that you can see. Its his model. I designed it - built some of it - but its his for most purposes.. - I hope people dont think Im some old dude in glasses ?

This is me :



And this is Daddie !


Man oh Man, that is precisely what I thought. I thought your father was actually you, and you were his son helping him with the building. All this time I was thinking, “Man, pops knows how to throw down”. Man, his son sure is lucky having a father who can build like that! 




One more of him flying - He certainly does enjoy flying - He is trying to get better but never really wanted to get serious about compeition.. Here is him flying another model - an Aerobat. You can see the joy on his face - this is what aeromodelling is about .




And this was the model he was flying : A little Aerobat - He built is becasue he crashed one as a child and Loved it - Go figure.
 


Now onto the design elements :

The Canopy Height - I really did want to Slick it out a little more. I didnt want to see it looking like a european style model with large Canopy - So It was cut down until I sized it right by eye. I think it looks quite Nice - Sleek and agressive. Remeber this started like as a 1951 Man Nobler. We also were careful that it was to be taken oversea's in a box so making it more narrow was a parameter. Hence the Smaller Tail. I did mock it up with a Genesis style Tail - Then tried it like the Big job with modern Finlettes.. Although it looked good - I would have been stepping on the Asthetic toes of another great new design.. a Low riding toad as its known...

So I settled on that Fin.


The wheels - Now that was an interesting design problem... From the front - It looks full size PA Stunter - Yet you look down the fuse and she dissapears into something smaller - Like the Big job - Or like its Namesake - PitBull..  I sized it up with different sets of Wheel pants - everything from Full sized - to No pants - to smaller pants.... Asthetically it looked " right " with those sizes.... They are standard 2 " Wheels - Which will work perfect off grass..

When you see it photographed ( or sitting ) on grass it sits down a little so it doesnt look as " goofy " as someone said..

Design is an interesting process..

Thanks for the kind words - Colour scheme is NEVER done on the fly - Ive mocked it up already - Green and Gold trim with white base coat and basic ink lines.

More to follow in the next few weeks..

[Steve Helmick]

Just to give an update :

This model has now been painted and is now in clear.  - Pics to follow once I upload them.

Ok, PJ...stop teasing us, and post the pictures! It's been more than 24 hours...   Steve

[PJ Rowland]

Yeah Sorry about that - I spent sunday buffing it out then went to play golf...

Next day or two I will get some pics done..

[PJ Rowland]

Well as promised here are the photo's of Dad's model for Advanced  ( this is not mine - Although I did Help him with the finish of it )

I have finished buffing out the clear now on everywhere except the flaps. The cutouts are for a set of  "howard Rush" boost tabs.
Finished weight is 53 oz with Stalker .61.

Someone mentioned they thought the wheels looked too big thats why I have taken photo's of it on Grass - I think it sits nicely with the 2"

Full Takeapart Configuration ( not new - but its my 1st attempt at it )

[Jose Javier Rodriguez]

Very, very, very, nice!
Great job! 

[john e. holliday]

That is absolutely gorgeous.   Hope it flies as well as it looks.

[PerttiMe]

Looks like an original styling design to me

Did you mold the transparent canopy or is it a very large commercial one, cut down?

.. oh, is the bottom all white?

[Randy Powell]

Very slick. Looks ready to rumble.

[ptg]

PITBULL...........it's the perfect name.  Way to go DAWG!

[Allan Perret]

Looks great, I agree with PTG, it looks like a PITBULL ..

Buffing, you use a machine or do it by hand ?

[Wynn Robins]

NICE PJ!!!!!   

you gotta stop building such good looking planes!

[Michael Boucher]

True Blue! 

[Derek Barry]

PT is right, it does kinda look like a pitbull!

Very nice PJ, I hope to have my new one done soon. It is in silver now so I probably only have 30-40 hours of painting left. sigh....... pigs arse!

[PJ Rowland]

Thanks guys - Cheers PTG - I agree hence the name - as soon as I looked at it - it looked liked a Pitbull !

Look its not perfect and I dont mean this to sound pathetic but there ARE flaws in it - it looks good on camera and its not bad but there are about 6 or so things on it I dislike like some tape lifting paint - It was a rushed job .....

Yeah Its all white underneath to save weight on extra Paint ect..


Its a standard Sig Canopy Cut down - Cut WAY down..


Look forward to seeing your new one derek!

[PJ Rowland]

I machine buff it with a Handheld Dual Action Buffer + 6" Foam Low cut Pad.

[John KruziK]

Another beautiful plane !!!

[Steve Helmick]

Oooooohhhh! Ahhhhhhhh! Good on ya! Have a Frosty for me!    Steve

[ash]

That looks great. And even better that it's in your native Australian trim. Seven-pointed Commonwealth stars would have been a sweet touch, but I suppose they're not easy to come by in stencil form.

[PJ Rowland]

I could have generated a 7 point star if I wanted to but didnt want to "busy" it up to much. Sometimes simple is best.

Hence the very VERy minor Panel lines. - Just wanted Simple and clean. - It kind of reminds me of a Red Bull Air Racer - but I dont know if thats because RED-BULL and PIT-BULL are so close in text.

[Bill Little]

PJ, that is one that I would happily have in my hanger.  Looks really sweet and especially in the relatively short amount of time y'all had to get it done in (including the other three or so you are doing!).  Good luck to your Dad with it!

I hope to make it to Muncie at least for a couple days and to get to meet you and "Dad".

Bill