Wooden vs. non wooden props?

[frank mccune]

        Hello:

        I will only use wooden props.  Does anybody else feel the same?

        Frank

[Dan McEntee]

    For the type of engines that I use, wood props offer me everything I need at an affordable  price. I just wish all the different brands that used to be readily available were still around. I am always searching the boxes and coffee cans at swap meets looking for anything useful. I have started to experiment with carving wood copies of some of the favorite plastic props using less desirable wood props as blanks to start with, and so far I have had some reasonable success. Take the Thunder Tiger 11X4.5 that seems to be a magic prop for a lot of applications. I have a Nobler ARF that was just a tad nose heavy, using that prop, so I reworked an old wood prop into a copy of the TT prop. I took a flight getting ROM and lap time numbers as a base, then just swapped out the prop. The wood copy weighs about half of the plastic version, so I was expecting everything else to be the same, but the corner should be better. I was pleasantly surprised and pleased to see that the tach had numbers very close to the plastic prop, lap time and tension were the same, and the corner was much improved! I have some other old wood props also that generally work very well, but you can't get them aby longer. I bought some wood props at the hobby shop I worked at that came from some ones estate. I think the brand was "Turner Flo Torque" , are a 10-5 and they may have been made here in St. Louis. They worked very well with Fox .35s but I only got 4 or 5 of them. What I recently noticed about them is that the shape of the blades are very similar to the Thunder Tiger prop, and the thickness is pretty close, if not a bit wider. I plan to make a direct copy of that as soon as I can go through my prop collection to find a reasonable blank to start with. I had to interrupt the program to get a new left knee installed. As soon as I can get back out to the garage I'm going to try and get this a bit more organized and get some numbers recorded and saved. Make a new prop from an old one isn't that dificult but requires some focus and attention to details, and I am still in the learning process. I was going to make a post about this very subject when I was ready, and see if any one else had any "numbers" or designs that they cut and carved from other wood props. I have found to real use for Zinger wood props, and since I have been involved with C/L stint, I have heard them referred to as "prop kits" but have never seen any drawings or descriptions on how to rework them into something else. I think this is the key part in this, knowing dimensions and what the finished prop should look like before starting. I think if I can get a new prop carved from an old one that cost me a buck, and it takes me about 3 hours to do it, it's time well spent as long as the performance is what I'm looking for.
    Anybody else got any "recipes" , designs or drawings they could share?
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Colin McRae]

I can't really say I like one prop vs another. It comes down to what flies / performs best w/ a particular model. I usually try different ones on a model until I get the performance I am looking for. Also, sometimes I need nose weight to CG balance and use an APC vs wood as it is quite a bit heavier compared to wood. So whatever flies right.

But when it comes to wood, I like XOAR. Beautifully made wood props. Also, Brodak BY&O if you are looking for a wide airfoil and how it performs.

[Lauri Malila]

..

[Dennis Toth]

One other thing about wood props is they can be heat pitched just like APC's or Carbon Fiber props. Only have to heat soak the hub area a little longer then for Carbon Fiber props by flipping it over several times while heating. I have been able to do up to 2" pitch change on them and it stays even in hot summer days.

Best,    DennisT

[Brett Buck]

        Hello:

        I will only use wooden props.  Does anybody else feel the same?

        Frank

I haven’t used a wood prop in maybe 30 years.

    Brett

[Jim Hoffman]

For me there are a few tech breakthroughs that were memorable and significant. Carbon props are one of them. A noticeable improvement in the ability to convert shaft power to thrust.   CF props can be thinner than a wood prop and achieve the same stiffness. The ease of making small pitch adjustments and on IC models is a great benefit to me also

The hollow lite weight CF props from Igor Berger reduce gyroscopic effects, but this might not be noticeable to most folks.

My OTS stuff get wooden props because I think they look out of place with any other choice

BTW, APC electric props are incredibly efficient and cost effective

[Perry Rose]

A wood prop does more damage to tissue than the non wood prop.

[frank mccune]

      Hello Perry:

      I have first hand knowledge that is not a true statement.  What is the proof of this statement.

      Stay well,

      Frank

[Ty Marcucci]

Based on horrible experience, a wood prop shatters into many more pieces than a carbon fiber or plastic prop and tears living hell out of the entire wing..  I had one that upon take off, struck the asphalt, shattered and ripped through both sides, through the LE, main spar and TE....never even got off the ground.
Wooden props are getting rare..Who even makes them anymore???

[Lauri Malila]

..

[doug coursey]

Based on horrible experience, a wood prop shatters into many more pieces than a carbon fiber or plastic prop and tears living hell out of the entire wing..  I had one that upon take off, struck the asphalt, shattered and ripped through both sides, through the LE, main spar and TE....never even got off the ground.
Wooden props are getting rare..Who even makes them anymore???

BRODAK HAS A HUGE SUPPLY OF WOODEN PROPS

[Paul Wescott]

BRODAK HAS A HUGE SUPPLY OF WOODEN PROPS

Even more importantly Brodak has an enormous metalworking mill that has been beautifully converted to turn wood into props.  So as long as wood is available, Brodak technically has an unlimited supply of wood props.

PW

[Sean McEntee]

BRODAK HAS A HUGE SUPPLY OF WOODEN PROPS

     This is because, last I heard, they are junk.

     BY&O and the earlier Y&O props used to be great props.  When Brodak got ahold of the tooling and started producing them, they were disappointingly poor in quality.  Unless they've made changes in real recent history (which is doubtful), they aren't worth the wood they're made with.  All of the other brands that Brodak lists aren't in commonly used sizes or pitches.

     What I think were underrated props were RSM's props.  Eric only made three sizes: 9x6 10x6 and 11x5.5.  I have no idea why he labeled them as such because, if I remember right, all three pitched out about a half inch less.  They were wall-mount worthy in craftsmanship and finish.  They also had a generous amount of undercamber so they didn't load up as much.  I used his 10x6's on the L&J Fox on my ringmaster almost exclusively and it loved them.  I think I used some of the 11" props on other stuff and they always worked well.  They were a good starting-point prop, I though, to get initial trimming done before fine tuning engine performance by playing with props...a step that I admittedly never made it to anyway

[Dan McEntee]

Even more importantly Brodak has an enormous metalworking mill that has been beautifully converted to turn wood into props.  So as long as wood is available, Brodak technically has an unlimited supply of wood props.

PW

     More correctly stated, Brodak has a large supply of THEIR props. I know they have some others also that are remaining stock of other manufacturers. They even have some Rev-Up props in their listing, but non of "the good ones". I haven't had to buy any in a while, but f the bulk of their offerings are the old B,Y,&O design, and they work for certain engine/airplane applications, but it's nice to have some alternatives for test purposes. When I was first learning to run ST.60's, there wasn't a whole lot to choose from on the market in the 13-5 and 13-6 range. Brodak's 13-5 and 6s came pretty close to running like I was looking for. I was playing with a 72 ounce Cardinal, and the Brodak 13-6 got me to where I could at least fly the pattern with the model. Then Allen Brickhaus suggested the then new on the market VESS 13-6, and it put all the others to shame, even the venerable Rev-Up 13-6 that I thought was supposed to be the standard for the ST.60. That experience taught me to really experiment and listen to the engine and how it was loaded, in addition to how it pulled in the air and what line tension was like. Since then I have discovered Xoar props for the ST.60, and it seems that VESS has either gone away or is available only direct now, like a lot of hobby items these days.
     My main purpose for using wood is economics, they are cheaper!! Even when I was flying a lot of contests and working a lot, props that cost 30 dollars a piece and up just didn't fit in my budget.  The few times I managed to get a Bolly to try, I would be flying on a grass field, and on the first take off I would find the ONLY rock in the whole field and there went the 30 dollar Bolly!! The off the shelf plastic props offer a lot, but they have a weight penalty, and can have production quality issues to watch out for. The plastic props can be modified and reworked to a point but not much can be done about the weight.  These days the price on the plastic props is creeping up, at least for the I/C versions, and availability of all kinds is suffering. I have a pretty large stock of props from a lifetime of collecting, and have always been interested in carving and reworking props for what we are looking for in stunt, especially with "conventional " engines. Those are what I have primarily run for years and will from here on out. I think there is a lot to learn and a lot of fun to be had in making something out of what could have been a paint stirring stick or epoxy mixing paddle! Lots of potential use in OTS, Classic, and profile models and even just fun flying .
  I was hoping there might be a few more wood butchers out there interesting in doing the same thing.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Bob Hunt]

I have been using the BadAss props of late with great success. They are extremely well made, finished, and balanced, and they are light! That is an important thing when using an active timer on an electric system. The lower inertia allows the timer to change the prop speed much more quickly. The props are very stiff, and they appear to be accurately pitched one to another. Most importantly for me is that they are available in left and right hand rotation; very important for the twins I'm campaigning. I'm using two 10 x 5 props (L&R) on my current Wildfire twin and plan to do the same with the Turning Point twin that is nearing first flights. I've found the APC props to be very heavy compared to the BadAss props. The APC props are well made, consistent, and they pull well, but they are too heavy for me.

I'm using the BadAss 11 x 5 props (I've tried both left and right rotation props and they both work well) on my new Caprice. One or the other will be staying on that model... 

The Bad Ass props are not expensive, and Innov8tive Design ships very quickly. Give them a try; you won't be disappointed.

Note: The photo attached of my Wildfire twin shows APC props fitted. These worked okay, but the model was subsequently fitted with the BadAss props and it worked even better.

Later - Bob
 

[Sean McEntee]

I have been using the BadAss props of late with great success. They are extremely well made, finished, and balanced, and they are light! That is an important thing when using an active timer on an electric system. The lower inertia allows the timer to change the prop speed much more quickly. The props are very stiff, and they appear to be accurately pitched one to another. Most importantly for me is that they are available in left and right hand rotation; very important for the twins I'm campaigning. I'm using two 10 x 5 props (L&R) on my current Wildfire twin and plan to do the same with the Turning Point twin that is nearing first flights. I've found the APC props to be very heavy compared to the BadAss props. The APC props are well made, consistent, and they pull well, but they are too heavy for me.

I'm using the BadAss 11 x 5 props (I've tried both left and right rotation props and they both work well) on my new Caprice. One or the other will be staying on that model... 

The Bad Ass props are not expensive, and Innov8tive Design ships very quickly. Give them a try; you won't be disappointed.

Note: The photo attached of my Wildfire twin shows APC props fitted. These worked okay, but the model was subsequently fitted with the BadAss props and it worked even better.

Later - Bob
 

That is hilarious.

What prop do you have on that thing?

It's a BadAss prop!

 

[Jim Svitko]

When Brodak took over the B Y & O line, the props were not very good.  Poorly shaped and thus the performance suffered.  Since then, they have improved considerably.  The latest B Y & O props I bought from Brodak have performed quite well and I am satisfied with them.

Zingers, in stock form, are terrible.  But, if you want to take the time to reshape them, they can be made to work quite well.

If not a wood prop, I like the Thunder Tigers. 

[Ken Culbertson]

I am going to try changing from the MAS 11-6 three blade to a BadAss 11-5 two blade for the reasons Bob mentioned.  What I don't know is how much of an RPM adjustment I should make on my Fiorotti timer for the 1st flight.  I don't need an exact answer, I will adjust it after it flies once but my situation is that I only get one or two flights a session so I would rather not waste the first one.  My ESC1 RPM setting for a BadAss 3515 710kv motor is currently 250 units which gives the 67oz plane on 65'e2e Spectra lines a lap time of 5.5.

Ken

[Air Ministry .]

If " We're " occasionally not quite there , a wood prop'll SHATTER rathern bone . Nylon'll bend , Carbon WONT , F'glass is a bit softer .

Wood Props if straight matched grain can be custom tooned , pitch , entry , thickness ( Thinned ) and made to flex under load in pitch , or to rpm's .
All want looking after .

Nylons supposed to have a moisture content . Use Armour All or boil ?? at 80 Deg. for 20 minutes. THEY SAY . Do Debrittleise em .

[Dan McEntee]

That is hilarious.

What prop do you have on that thing?

It's a BadAss prop!

 

    It's a subsidiary of the Big Ass Ham company!!!  I'm assuming they are electric props, and not suitable for a fire breathing Fox .35 on a Ringmaster!
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Air Ministry .]

Croikey : https://innov8tivedesigns.com/products/propellers/badass-wood-props.html

[Dave Hull]

On sport and stunt planes, I generally use wooden props. On racing planes it is more likely to be an APC, or, if we're getting into high performance a carbon or glass prop. Some good choices out there on those.

I have purchased and used a good number of the BY&O props. If you can get one made from beech, I really like them. Not a fan of open-grained wood like oak. I heard that early on that there was more training needed in the sanding department on what a prop was supposed to look like. I never saw one of those. I'd take a chance and buy more if I run out.

Had to throw in a picture for Dan Mc. Yeah, there are still guys that whittle....

[Lauri Malila]

..

[Perry Rose]

      Hello Perry:

      I have first hand knowledge that is not a true statement.  What is the proof of this statement.

      Stay well,

      Frank

My proof is on my hands and fingers. The latest is a 3 inch long by a half inch wide prop strike on the back of my right hand that  smashed most all of the skin into small bits but didn't cut the blood vessel. there wasn't enough skin left to sew back together (doctors words). A plastic prop would have made 30 or more clean cuts including the blood vessel. As Ty has mentioned I broke a wood prop against my hand and the ragged edges made a lot of ragged edges on my hand. I do use both but I favor APC.  If I'm not bleeding I'm not having fun.

[Colin McRae]

One other item to be aware of w/ wood props that I have experienced. On a few of the first wood props I ever used, I was using a chicken stick to flip start. Ended up damaging the props. Went back to finger flipping and no issues. I would suggest not using a chicken stick on any wood prop.

[Bob Hunt]

One other item to be aware of w/ wood props that I have experienced. On a few of the first wood props I ever used, I was using a chicken stick to flip start. Ended up damaging the props. Went back to finger flipping and no issues. I would suggest not using a chicken stick on any wood prop.

Well Colin, that's just one more thing in the plus column for electric power; you never have to even touch the propeller, and you are typically 60 to 70 feet away from the model when it starts!

I flew several flights yesterday with the Wildfire twin fitted with the wooden BadAss 10 x 5 props (one left hand and one right hand) with great success. Don't think I'll be going back to carbon or glass filled nylon props on that one.

Later - Bob

[Brett Buck]

If the OP is about how hurt you can get by the propellor, it doesn't matter - because if you get hit or whacked by any prop, you need to do something different so it doesn't happen. What we are doing - moving around in very close proximity to high-speed rotating machinery with no guards - it extremely dangerous. If we were doing it commercially, we would certainly be shut down.

  Everyone need to recognize this and take steps to mitigate the risks to the extent possible, because there is nothing you can use that will both take the loads required, provide the performace required, and be "safe" in any sense of the word. You could make the prop out of rubber and it would still be just about as bad - and also not work.

        Brett

[Dave_Trible]

They will ALL 'get ya',  especially from the front.  Usually not so bad (quite) if from the rear as in getting too close adjusting the needle.  There your fingers are getting more beating than cutting.  However always have to be aware of proximity to a prop.  This also means stop watches or glasses dangling from your neck!  If you really feel uncomfortable use an electric starter.  As I get older I'm thinking to go that way in the future to prevent any senior moments.  They are hard on engines but better than losing a few digits .......I use a piece of silicone pipe coupler hose as a finger guard which is also easy on props-and where possible back-flip the prop to start-staying off that sharp and delicate prop trailing edge.


Dave

[Brett Buck]

They will ALL 'get ya',  especially from the front.  Usually not so bad (quite) if from the rear as in getting too close adjusting the needle.  There your fingers are getting more beating than cutting.  However always have to be aware of proximity to a prop.  This also means stop watches or glasses dangling from your neck!  If you really feel uncomfortable use an electric starter.  As I get older I'm thinking to go that way in the future to prevent any senior moments.  They are hard on engines but better than losing a few digits .......I use a piece of silicone pipe coupler hose as a finger guard which is also easy on props-and where possible back-flip the prop to start-staying off that sharp and delicate prop trailing edge.

  The ugliest and of late, most common, seem to be those from the "end" - I am sure you recall Richard Oliver's where he was moving his box and ended up swinging his finger into the full-speed running Jett 67. To make my eariler point, the worst one I saw was actually with a wood prop, where Roland McDonald draggd his arm across the tips of the spinning prop, looked like hamborger every inch up his arm.

    Brett

[Colin McRae]

I have been using mostly OS LA's and FP's, and even an EVO 36 NT all w/ remote NVA's. The engines all run great and much safer. Brett is right. The 'stock' OS LA's w/ remote NVA are great running engines right out of the box.

I did cut my finger once upon a time w/ a Fox 35 when adjusting the needle. The Fox 35 engine specifically has such a short nose that the needle is only like 1/2" from the prop.

[Sean McEntee]

I have been using mostly OS LA's and FP's, and even an EVO 36 NT all w/ remote NVA's. The engines all run great and much safer. Brett is right. The 'stock' OS LA's w/ remote NVA are great running engines right out of the box.

I did cut my finger once upon a time w/ a Fox 35 when adjusting the needle. The Fox 35 engine specifically has such a short nose that the needle is only like 1/2" from the prop.

I still have all ten fingers in good working order, and thats mostly from consistent starting routine and maintaining good habits e.g. setting the needle from behind the motor as opposed to reaching around the prop arc, ect.  It's been so long, I cant recall who taught me that stuff...

The only flesh/prop inclusion I've ever had was in Old Time at the 2009 Nat's.  The engine was already running when I noticed the pressure line wasnt connected to the tank.  Rather than do the smart thing--shut it down, take an attempt and start it again--I tried to reconnect it (by reaching around the prop arc) on the fly and nicked my left wrist.  It was a wood prop, so there wasn't a lot of damage; just about an 1/8" gash on my wrist.  Only then did I take an attempt, bandaged up, and flew the rest of the contest.  I still have a good scar on my wrist to remind me to not do that again

    It's a subsidiary of the Big Ass Ham company!!! 

    Also owners of the Big Ass Fan company.

[Mike Ferguson]

Well Colin, that's just one more thing in the plus column for electric power; you never have to even touch the propeller, and you are typically 60 to 70 feet away from the model when it starts!

I flew several flights yesterday with the Wildfire twin fitted with the wooden BadAss 10 x 5 props (one left hand and one right hand) with great success. Don't think I'll be going back to carbon or glass filled nylon props on that one.

Later - Bob

Also, Dorian at Innovative Designs (who makes BadAss props and motors, among other things) is quite willing to make new prop sizes that aren't currently in his inventory, provided there's some demand!

I've requested a 13 x 5 prop (in both left hand and right hand versions) for a project I'm working on - hope others might want to try that and request it as well!