Practice profile model suggestion - Any favorites?

[Teodorico Terry]

Hello,

I am currently building a Legacy 40 and would like to have another model with which to practice.  My feeling is that with C/L crashes are more likely than in R/C (I fly R/C pattern as well and I have 2 models with more than 1000 flights on them) .  I would consider myself to be an O.K. C/L pilot; I can get through the sequence with my current model and the figures are recognizable but not necessarily pretty.  I enjoy building but I had forgotten how much time it can take.  I know that the Legacy will be a good flyer but I am thinking that I will need a 2nd model to help build my confidence.  With that in mind I am open to suggestions for a decent profile model.  I had considered a SIG Banshee or maybe a somewhat modified VP Magician (slightly longer tail moment and flaps).  Would a more modern design be much better?

Thank you,

Teo

[Dan McEntee]

Hello,

I am currently building a Legacy 40 and would like to have another model with which to practice.  My feeling is that with C/L crashes are more likely than in R/C (I fly R/C pattern as well and I have 2 models with more than 1000 flights on them) .  I would consider myself to be an O.K. C/L pilot; I can get through the sequence with my current model and the figures are recognizable but not necessarily pretty.  I enjoy building but I had forgotten how much time it can take.  I know that the Legacy will be a good flyer but I am thinking that I will need a 2nd model to help build my confidence.  With that in mind I am open to suggestions for a decent profile model.  I had considered a SIG Banshee or maybe a somewhat modified VP Magician (slightly longer tail moment and flaps).  Would a more modern design be much better?

Thank you,

Teo

   If you have all the plans and such out already for the Legacy, why not just a quicky profile version of that airplane? Simple finish, try to make the controls exactly the same as the "contest" model? Or any of the other simple models that are out there. Heck, even a SIG Skyray.35 will do. Pick something that you find pleasing to your eye to help make the practice time more appealing. Lew Woolard had a fast combat model called "The Spyder" I think it was, and a lot of guys have adapted that as a fun fly, sport/practice airplane. The unique thing about it is that it was designed for quick construction using very few standard size balsa sheets, which is kind of important these days with balsa prices out of sight. It was intended for a .36 combat engine, but would be great for stunt with a .25, and  add landing gear. There have been several threads on here about it, and I think plans are available on outerzone. I'm just not certain about the spelling, eithe Spider or Spyder. I think it would be a great sport/practice model.
  Type at you later and HAPPY NEW YEAR!!
    Dan McEntee

[Steve Berry]

So many planes to suggest....

I'll throw out an obvious suggestion - build a profile version of the Legacy 40 that you're already building. They should end up close enough that going from one to the other shouldn't cause any trouble. They should handle the same, that is.

Otherwise:
Fancherized Twister
Mustunt I
Pathfinder
Imitation
Top Flite Tutor II
Or just a well documented, good flying modern PA, and build a profile version of that.

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[Teodorico Terry]

Hi - 

Thank you for the suggestions.  Funny story.  I actually intended to build a profile version of the Legacy so rather than order the full kit from Brodak I just ordered the rib set and drawings.  In the end I decided to build the full bodied version of it simply because I though it would like a little nicer.  Maybe I will do that again, just order a new set of ribs and go from there.  Aside from the Magician which was my first "large model" I was also thinking of a Tutor.  I had one many years ago and it was a very nice flying model with a ST G35.  I have looked all over the place for an old kit but have not found one.

Thank you and Happy New Year!

Teo

[Dan McEntee]

   If you are interested in a Tutor, there was a recent thread about that model within the last few weeks. A kit plan might not give you all you need to scratch build, but there is a redrawn plan listed on outerzone.  Also, Eric Rule at RSM had a file for a laser cut kit with a slightly lengthened tail that was not in his normal listing. You might give RSM a call and see if the new owner still has the file for that and can cut you a kit. Search out the recent thread, you might be interested to read it.
  Type at you later and HAPPY NEW YEAR!
     Dan McEntee

[Steve Helmick]

Absolutely, build a profile version of the Legacy 40 with identical controls and power. It should fly very much like the other'n, which will mean you can more easily jump from one to the other...and also fly another event. The more patterns you fly, the better.  Steve

[Tim Wescott]

If you're 100% serious about competing, build a profile Legacy.  I think the only thing I'd change would be to offset the bellcrank a bit so that the controls don't try to come out the middle of the wing, and to offset the motor down a bit to keep its vertical center of gravity in roughly the same place.

Having said that -- I built myself a Fancherized Twister back in 2010 or 2013 or something.  I was expecting that I'd use it up in a year, so it was all Monocoat & Rustoleum finish.  From that moment on, I've crashed sport planes, but never my main competition ride.  I still have that Twister, and the only damage it's experienced has been hanger rash and a memorable incident where someone lost an electric motor in the pits that ended up embedded in my wing.

So it is possible to get past the bash and crash stage.  Not everyone does it, and there's not much you can do if the wind gods slap your plane out of the sky.  But I don't think I've seen one of the top guys crash at a contest.

[Ken Culbertson]

But I don't think I've seen one of the top guys crash at a contest.

Trust me, they do.  I have seen several, even World Champions but that is not the issue here.  The Fancherized Twister will perform up to expert standards, especially if you can get the fuselage really stiff.  I have also flown a Pathfinder that could rival the Twister.

Ken 

[Teodorico Terry]

Thank you for the suggestions.  I just checked the builtright website and right now he has a limited selection of kits available due to an issue regarding his balsa supply.  From the website it appears that he does offer the rib set and plans for the Francherized Twister.  I like the idea of building a simpler model (i.e. no wing taper) so I will shoot him a note to see if the rib set is available.  Rather than building a solid fuse I would probably do a built up profile, I think that sheeting the skeleton at an angle I will get better torsional stiffness than if I used a solid piece.  Hopefully, it could also be lighter.   I do understand the notion of having nearly identical model for both practice and competition; I have seen that in pattern.  Many of the guys have twins. 

I would like to try competing once again, based on what I have seen depending on how far I am willing to drive I might be able to attend a competition or two.  For R/C pattern I try to do 2 comps per year.  We will see how it goes.  The funny thing is that in the past few months I probably have made more C/L flights than R/C flights.  On a good season I might average about 300 R/C practice flights; with C/L I was up to about 100 in about 2 months.  Very little R/C in the last month.

Thank you and Happy New Year!

Teo

[Brett Buck]

Hello,

I am currently building a Legacy 40 and would like to have another model with which to practice.  My feeling is that with C/L crashes are more likely than in R/C (I fly R/C pattern as well and I have 2 models with more than 1000 flights on them) .  I would consider myself to be an O.K. C/L pilot; I can get through the sequence with my current model and the figures are recognizable but not necessarily pretty.  I enjoy building but I had forgotten how much time it can take.  I know that the Legacy will be a good flyer but I am thinking that I will need a 2nd model to help build my confidence.  With that in mind I am open to suggestions for a decent profile model.  I had considered a SIG Banshee or maybe a somewhat modified VP Magician (slightly longer tail moment and flaps).  Would a more modern design be much better?

Thank you,

Teo

    I am not much of a fan of "practice models" - either fly the real one, or get different real models. If you are still concerned with relatively frequent crashes, flying airplanes like the Legacy -which is not unusual as far as build time goes for similar models - is probably something best deferred. I would also note that just having a profile VS full fuselage airplane isn't all that much easier as long as the wing and tail are the same.  You still have the control setup and flapped airplane trimming issues. Those are skill to be learned, too, but if you want to get flights in, you can have a simpler and more readily fixable solutions.

    One thing that might not be apparent from reading posts here is that *the engine* is the most important part of the system, by far, and that engine performance has dramatically improved since most people did it as a kid. A very modest airplane with a good engine is much better than the best airplane with a vintage engine. I don't seen any mention of engine selection - what engine do you have?

    Brett

   

[Steve Scott]

My 'best' experience with a simple but capable CL trainer was a slow combat foamie I built from scratch after ordering the cores from a vendor I can't remember.  I had a bit too hot of a stunt motor (FOX .36 schnuerle) in it and my maiden was a totally wild ride with a full 5oz. chicken hopper and a wood 8-8 prop.  Combined with WAY too much throw it was a bit of a long and nervous flight.

After reducing the elevator travel and putting a more suitably-pitched stunt prop it flew nearly perfectly.  I had no landing gear on it so never flew it at a contest and never got into combat.  It was a relatively high-aspect wing and when the engine ran out of fuel it virtually stopped in mid-air - no glide path so you had to be ready to land it quickly.

I've been pretty much out of it for 20 years but considering getting back into it although my preference leans more toward OTS.

I had all 3 of the U-Key series (15, .35 and .40) and they all flew pretty well.  Currently need to finish up a RST Stunt Trainer from CoreHouse (in the vendor forum) and have an Umland Fancherized Twister still in the box.

[Ken Culbertson]

I do understand the notion of having nearly identical model for both practice and competition.

Although that may not be the best thing for those at the very top it is very useful for improving.  What it can't be is a ship of a different (within reason) size or turning capability and line tension.  Even an optimally trimmed plane will have a set of idiosyncrasies that will be different from any other.  You don't want them to be so dramatic that you can't adapt in a flight or two.  My practice ship and sometimes profile entry was a modified Fancherized Twister.  It was capable of 550 and probably more in the hands of a better flier BUT it turned very different from my PA and flying it close to a contest was not a good idea.

So, if your goal is to get back into the swing of things, the Twister is the right choice but if you are already "back" then build a profile version of your PA.

Ken

[Teodorico Terry]

Hello Brett,

Sorry that I forgot to mention the engine choice, actually, the correct term would be motor.  Everything I have is electric.  The Legacy will use an E-Flite 25, probably a 4S pack turning a 12x6 or so prop.  The backup model would be the same or similar; I have not purchased the system for it. 

The intent for the Legacy is to have the control system be adjustable so that I can play with the settings.  My current plane is modified SIG Fazer and since it is a profile making adjustments is quite simple.  It took a while to figure out the right flap/elevator ratio as well as their alignment relative to each other.  I have a laser level which has been quite handy in terms of making sure that everything lines up properly.  I think that the biggest problem with the model is the installed power relative to its weight and drag (the wing is quite thick and has a low aspect ratio);  it could use more power.  Another option would be to re-motor that model and keep flying it.  I have enclosed a photo of the model under construction and one taken at the field.

Thanks,

Teo

[Chuck_Smith]

 For me, I need to fly about 75-100 patterns with any plane before I feel like I have it trimmed and I understand it. So just build what you intend to fly.

The best way to avoid crashing (IMHO) is to always fly the pattern every flight. Don't go freestyle, and keep your bottoms higher until you are consistent.

Regarding the Legacy, were I building one for electric I would increase the size of the horizontal tail and move the CG slightly aft. Others may offer different advice.

For a profile - I like the Tutor. It seems to be happy flying slower than a lot of other profiles.

If you do switch planes - strive to keep the lap times exactly the same between the two and use the same line length. If you have a practice plane that requires different timing and control inputs than your competition plane all you're doing is getting bad muscle memory and timing, and that's really hard to overcome. You'll notice that most top fliers don't show up with a completely different ship every year (Rabe excepted), but a refinement of the last one they flew. Yeah, they may look different, but wings and tails and moments have a tendency to change incrementally at a glacial speed.

Flying the pattern is easy, most people can do it fairly quickly with good equipment. Flying it well is a refinement process. It's the sum of tiny tweaks and experience in different conditions. Tweaks are helped along by experienced fliers, but experience is always earned the hard way.

All IMHO, of course.

Peace,

Chuck

[TDM]

Terry I have read the post with interest. I am happy the you are now a part of the CL community.
Here are my two cent suggestions based on what I think I know about you.
First one is because you know how to fly the pattern ugly as yo say it is is a very big step for anyone that knows how to fly CL. For all in that position I have one advice build a SV11 quality plane and enjoy. These models are very competitive, what makes them competitive is the fact they stay on the lines turn very well and are easy to fly. The easier to fly equals easy to learn and improve. Trainers are not particularly easy to fly models specially when you make the hard tricks, they are usually build to fly basic stuff and the hard stuff decent. Yes you can do all the tricks but you are fighting it a bit.
Second if you are flying electric think about oversizing the motor it will save some grief. A light motor will use much more energy for the same prop rpm combination compared to a larger motor, all the added weight placed on the larger motor and more will be saved downstream with a smaller ESC and the smaller battery required. You see small motor gets hot trying to get the job done the ESC gets hot the battery gets hot and you end up with three systems getting hot which it is all lost energy and you run out of battery fast.
Third if you fly electric try to settle with designs that have thin airfoils. Junar Ares Nobler are planes that come to mind. Junar would be my weapon of choice if I was building a wood model. I am seriously considering to make one for classic competitions.
Third we all crash. We do it mostly when we push to hard or the engine quits unexpectant at the worst moment. You do not have much to worry on the motor quitting. If you play it safe above the ground and you progressively gradually move them in position you will eliminate most of the crashing, with a performing plane it will be more forgiving too and allow you to recover. I wish I was flying 100 patterns in a year. So take it easy and safe and you will make quick progress.
Good luck