Author Topic: Building realization (Read 3144 times)

Dane Martin · « **on:** August 17, 2018, 04:58:38 PM »

I grew up building free flight models and then RC models. I didn't fly any RC planes until I was 14 because I couldn't afford engines and stuff. But somehow my dad always figured out a way to get me a new kit to build. He didn't build models as a kid, so he didn't know "what to do" but showed me it's all in the instructions. Well I figured after all that building alone, I became a pretty good builder. Then, this year I decide I'll get real serious about competing in stunt. Also, this year I learned; I don't know jack about building an airplane at the level I need to be! I think my focus will somehow be getting with guys to help advance my building and understanding of how control line planes SHOULD be as opposed to me building it and hoping for the best.

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #1 on:** August 17, 2018, 05:42:15 PM »

Quote from: Dane Martin on August 17, 2018, 04:58:38 PM

I grew up building free flight models and then RC models. I didn't fly any RC planes until I was 14 because I couldn't afford engines and stuff. But somehow my dad always figured out a way to get me a new kit to build. He didn't build models as a kid, so he didn't know "what to do" but showed me it's all in the instructions. Well I figured after all that building alone, I became a pretty good builder. Then, this year I decide I'll get real serious about competing in stunt. Also, this year I learned; I don't know jack about building an airplane at the level I need to be! I think my focus will somehow be getting with guys to help advance my building and understanding of how control line planes SHOULD be as opposed to me building it and hoping for the best.

I'm going to have to go over the build instructions for my Brodak Legacy, because I remember thinking that they were pretty good. But then, I may have just been reading them and thinking "OK, this isn't going to lead someone too far astray". It's not like I actually followed them to any great level of detail, other than paying attention to the build order, and being sure to think extra hard when I stepped away from the recommendations therein.

Build the pieces light and straight, and put them together accurately without adding much more weight. Avoid the temptation to cover with shipping tape. What could be easier?

Brent Williams · « **Reply #2 on:** August 17, 2018, 06:04:51 PM »

If you are past the crashing phase and feel you are now ready for a great PA plane, then get your Imitation kit built!

Go copy the plans, make good templates of the parts and you'll have the capability have a top notch plane at all times.

Once you fly a very well trimmed PA plane, you will be shocked at the difference. It isn't subtle.

Bill Ervin · « **Reply #3 on:** August 17, 2018, 06:10:10 PM »

Dane, during the workday do you often have visions of flying your plane through a perfect square eight or hourglass?

BYU · « **Reply #4 on:** August 17, 2018, 06:13:32 PM »

I began to realize a few years back exactly the same as you. I was sure I knew how to build a top class model and then began to understand I didn’t know what I didn’t know.

If you can stretch to it, consider getting a set of Bob Hunts excellent instruction videos.

I have a DVD in the shop constantly playing one or other of them.

Dane Martin · « **Reply #5 on:** August 17, 2018, 06:23:21 PM »

Quote from: Bill Ervin on August 17, 2018, 06:10:10 PM

Dane, during the workday do you often have visions of flying your plane through a perfect square eight or hourglass?

Sure do. I have a print out of the pattern in the top drawer of my tool box......

Well it's funny. My planes come out light and reasonably straight. I guess I just don't understand yet what it takes to get them to do the pattern maneuvers correctly.
I'll be applying Paul Walker's trim guide to my primary force this weekend.

Bill Ervin · « **Reply #6 on:** August 17, 2018, 06:58:14 PM »

Oh dear, it appears you’ve already taken the red pill.

Crist Rigotti · « **Reply #7 on:** August 17, 2018, 10:30:49 PM »

Dane,
Get with Bill Ervin. He'll show you. He was my inspiration when the first time I saw his stunters. I'm serious.

Brent Williams · « **Reply #8 on:** August 17, 2018, 10:48:08 PM »

Also...look up the fantastic build logs of every plane that Crist Rigotti has built.

That is some great and informative info. I have learned a lot by reading Crist's posts.

Bill Ervin · « **Reply #9 on:** August 18, 2018, 07:22:46 AM »

If you can can watch in VHS format there are still a few Windy tapes floating around the Las Vegas/Henderson/Pahrump tri-city area. Some have been uploaded to YouTube, enough footage to make your eyes glass over.

RknRusty · « **Reply #10 on:** August 18, 2018, 07:45:35 AM »

Dane, a great deal of what we talk about on our video hangout show is how to build and fly. We get a lot of input and show-and-tell from Sparky. Bob Hunt has been a great addition to our brain trust lately, as well as Al Ferarro, Charles Carter, an aspiring champion, and others. We have engine guys, airframe guys and pilots all combining our specialties. If you want to either join live on camera, or text-chat with us anonymously from the YouTube watch page, or even just watch our reruns, there is a lot you can lean from it. We usually hit our groove 30-45 minutes into the show after everyone arrives.

I'm not just plugging here, I just want everyone to know our show is a growing resource. It has plenty of flat spots, but turn it on while you work and listen out of the corner of your ear and you'll eventually learn something.

Here's the rerun of last night's show:
Rusty

Brett Buck · « **Reply #11 on:** August 18, 2018, 02:03:29 PM »

Quote from: Dane Martin on August 17, 2018, 04:58:38 PM

Then, this year I decide I'll get real serious about competing in stunt. Also, this year I learned; I don't know jack about building an airplane at the level I need to be! I think my focus will somehow be getting with guys to help advance my building and understanding of how control line planes SHOULD be as opposed to me building it and hoping for the best.

Everything is a process, and it's a matter of learning and attention to detail. One of the beauties of stunt is that to be really good at it, you have to master every aspect of it, and you are always improving or can learn something more.

Brett

Dane Martin · « **Reply #12 on:** August 18, 2018, 03:31:54 PM »

Well what really sparked this, is that I'm building that Hi Johnson Stuka for classic. I could be close to covering the wing, but I want to dope and paint it. I got all excited and picked a trim scheme and someone asked, hey how are ya gonna cover that Polywog airfoil? Well, I had no idea. So I made some calls, and Jim H gave me Lou Woulgasts number. I called him up and he's more than happy to help. There's just so much I haven't experienced yet!

Randy Cuberly · « **Reply #13 on:** August 18, 2018, 04:59:50 PM »

Quote from: Brett Buck on August 18, 2018, 02:03:29 PM

Everything is a process, and it's a matter of learning and attention to detail. One of the beauties of stunt is that to be really good at it, you have to master every aspect of it, and you are always improving or can learn something more.

Brett

Unless of course you only plan to fly at the World Championships or only under FAI Rules, then all you have to do is Buy and fly (and have lots of money)!

Randy Cuberly

Tim Wescott · « **Reply #14 on:** August 18, 2018, 05:14:04 PM »

Quote from: Dane Martin on August 18, 2018, 03:31:54 PM

Well what really sparked this, is that I'm building that Hi Johnson Stuka for classic. I could be close to covering the wing, but I want to dope and paint it. I got all excited and picked a trim scheme and someone asked, hey how are ya gonna cover that Polywog airfoil? Well, I had no idea. So I made some calls, and Jim H gave me Lou Woulgasts number. I called him up and he's more than happy to help. There's just so much I haven't experienced yet!

Let us know when you know! I think the answer is to just cover it with silkspan -- or maybe even Polyspan -- in the usual way, but I'm all ears.

Brett Buck · « **Reply #15 on:** August 18, 2018, 07:06:05 PM »

Quote from: Randy Cuberly on August 18, 2018, 04:59:50 PM

all you have to do is Buy and fly (and have lots of money)!

They aren't all that expensive for what you get. But yes, you are not a modeler in that case, you are a toy airplane consumer, no matter how well you do it.

Brett

Dave Hull · « **Reply #16 on:** August 18, 2018, 11:39:55 PM »

Hmmm.

I thought with polliwogs, you used cap strips if possible, and made sure that you have plenty of coats of dope down before covering. And be sure that your fabric dope is plasticized good. I had a few undercambered FF wings "pop" if there was no lower planking or spar to help keep the covering down....

Not sure if there is a trick with Sigment or not...

The full-size guys got it knocked since they use rib stitching. Except Hawker, who had some issues with fabric blowing off, if I recall correctly. (I think their sledgehammer fix was external stitching strips?) The suction over the surface and the drumming combined with torsion....everything is going against you.

I am curious what others have had success with. Please post how things turn out.

Dave

Larry Fernandez · « **Reply #17 on:** August 19, 2018, 12:02:56 AM »

Quote from: Dane Martin on August 18, 2018, 03:31:54 PM

Well what really sparked this, is that I'm building that Hi Johnson Stuka for classic. I could be close to covering the wing, but I want to dope and paint it. I got all excited and picked a trim scheme and someone asked, hey how are ya gonna cover that Polywog airfoil? Well, I had no idea. So I made some calls, and Jim H gave me Lou Woulgasts number. I called him up and he's more than happy to help. There's just so much I haven't experienced yet!

Hi Dane, still thrilled that your Knights took the hockey world by storm. Even though they beat my Sharks, I was happy for them and happy for the fans of Las Vegas. This story was great for the NHL.

The reason for this post. I have built and covered a Hi Johnson Stuka wing and might have some helpful info for you. You have my number, so that please feel free to give me a call.

Larry, Buttafucco Stunt Team

Chris McMillin · « **Reply #18 on:** August 19, 2018, 12:24:08 AM »

Dane learns well and fast. He has a desire to compete and has the ability listen. This allows him to change his model, trim, lines, engine run at a rate much faster than many other flyers because he believes his coaches and does what they say. This will allow him to progress quickly. He is a good builder too, his models are straight and well constructed. Building light and straight will come as he builds a few more ships. I think the Hi Johnson Stuka project is quite elaborate and combines FF with CL from the olden days of Stunt so a pretty tough assignment. Lou is a good choice in phone helper.
A full on Stunt ship of the modern era will be much easier and straightforward.
Chris...

Sean McEntee · « **Reply #19 on:** August 19, 2018, 01:30:08 AM »

Hiya Dane,

The first step to recovery is admitting that you have a problem

I came to a similar conclusion a few years ago. I could fly pretty well, but my flying skills were disproportionally better than my building skills due to a complete lack of interest in building when I was a kid. Not only did I stink at building but my finishing skills were worse. I made a conscious effort at that point to fix those "deficiencies". I still have work to do but its getting there. A few tips from my own meandering experiences.

- Get BACK into Free Flight! I moved up here to Ft Carson the first time in 2009 and there wasn't a whole lot CL activity up in Denver, nor anywhere else. However I had memories of going to FF contests with my dad back when I was a real little kid. I looked up FF clubs in Colorado and fell in with the Magnificent Mountain Men. Got introduced to discus HLGs and it was off to the races. Started building HLG and CAT gliders. Doing that reinforced the basics of building and trimming. My ability to build light, strong structures greatly improved. In addition to that, free flight is a blast anyway!

- Learn what "right" looks like. One thing I had/have going for me in my geographical isolation from other stunt flyers in central Texas as well as in Colorado (to an extent) is knowing what the end product should look like, I just had to get my models there. VSC is a good place to do this but go to the NATs once as a spectator or someone's helper. Take a look at the level of craftsmanship and, in between the "ooooh"s and "ahhhh"s, insert "I can do that" because you can with practice. Talk to the model owners and ask questions. Even at a big event as the Nat's, there's plenty of folks there willing to ask questions.

-Watch Sparky's videos and other folks' how-to resources, then watch them again. A lot of Bob's finishing videos helped me immensely.

-Lastly...Ask Chris McMillin...the Jedi master who instructed me!

Dane Martin · « **Reply #20 on:** August 19, 2018, 06:49:35 AM »

Quote from: Chris McMillin on August 19, 2018, 12:24:08 AM

A full on Stunt ship of the modern era will be much easier and straightforward.
Chris...

Thanks Chris. This is why I decided to build the stuka first. I thought it would be more difficult overall.
Next plane will be the imitation. I guess if I can make this stuka fly, I can build the imitation. Then on to the Skywriter / stylus

Air Ministry . · « **Reply #21 on:** August 19, 2018, 07:22:40 PM »

Theres some very good kits now , for that sort of thing . good quality & good value , good materials .

Save a fortune in time if your after good results .

Unless your ' overseas ' and have uncoperative exchange & postal rates . $:-\$
Years back Exch rate was opposite , so youd land stuff in Aus. for about the asking price. Closer to double that , now .

ANYWAY , theres a Stargazer & various other top line kits thatll be very good with a mediocum of competance .
And the horrable plastic coverings are a good deal better nowadays , as part of the ' integrated structure '
as well as keeping the oil out .

you have to watch otherwise overcome by attention to detail . Often its best / to go hell for leather , and get flying .
as opposed to obsess prevaricate and excessive persnickityness . Unless youve a imaculate workshop & meals laid on .

Brett Buck · « **Reply #22 on:** August 19, 2018, 07:56:10 PM »

Quote from: Dane Martin on August 19, 2018, 06:49:35 AM

Thanks Chris. This is why I decided to build the stuka first. I thought it would be more difficult overall.
Next plane will be the imitation. I guess if I can make this stuka fly, I can build the imitation. Then on to the Skywriter / stylus

I think just care will give you the results you need. The Stuka should go *great* with a 20FP or similar, Fox 25 or the original "Fox 35 Jr" 29m or even a Fox 35. I think Larry "Joey Jr." Fernandez' Still Stuka went very well with a 20FP, until it wound up glued to the wall of Warren Walker's man cave.

The Fox would be a good alternative in this case, since it would run fine with the inverted mount, even stock, and the airplane is small enough to give really good performance.

Brett

Dane Martin · « **Reply #23 on:** August 19, 2018, 08:22:16 PM »

I'm actually building the Hi Johnson Stuka, and it's going to be electric. It's much bigger than the Still's Stuka. I do have a Still's stuka in the garage I need to recover the wing. That one will get the new FP 20 that the "International man of mystery" sent me.

Dane Martin · « **Reply #24 on:** August 19, 2018, 08:32:06 PM »

Also, I am fully taking the advice of those who are "in the know". Last time I flew the primary force was at the southwest regionals. Chris McMillin said he was wondering how I got the corners so tight. Then he said, "I watched your hand, and you're practically pulling the plane in at you!"
So, in an effort to understand what was happening, I flew it last weekend and today. First I found it was too nose heavy. Easy fix. But also, it was flying too fast for the control capability. It had a 9x6, and yes I know that's too much. Lol. But the tank being inboard made it run too rich. So! I swapped the tank around to the engine side and switched to a 9x4. Today's pattern actually looked reasonable.

Dane Martin · « **Reply #25 on:** August 20, 2018, 10:35:58 AM »

Quote from: Crist Rigotti on August 17, 2018, 10:30:49 PM

Dane,
Get with Bill Ervin. He'll show you. He was my inspiration when the first time I saw his stunters. I'm serious.

Christ, his work is exceptional. Here's some pics from yesterday. Also, he showed me some components of his new stunt ship. It's simply unbelievable to see the difference in craftsmanship. Now that I see what can be done, I think I can replicate it with some practice. But Bill's planes are almost unreal. Plus, I was holding his plane while he started his engine. It's unbelievable how light it is!

Dane Martin · « **Reply #26 on:** August 20, 2018, 10:36:25 AM »

Another pic