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Author Topic: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats  (Read 3884 times)

Offline Bradley Walker

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New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« on: September 15, 2008, 11:37:56 AM »
This is my new article for CLW:

Stunt Judging and Formats

Last time I checked, flying model airplanes is generally considered “fun”.  I do believe I could find a consensus to this fact, and I think we would all agree that is why we all do it.  As a general extension of this fact, flying for fun can sometimes lead to flying in competition.  Competition gives us a reason to all get together and have some good fellowship with brother modelers, be exposed to other flyers, learn new approaches to modeling, and measure our abilities against each other (oh… and eat bar-B-Q).

The need for competition leads ultimately to the little thing we call a model airplane “stunt contest”.  This is ultimately the subject for discussion here. 

There are some people out there that believe that a stunt contest has a great many functions, and that the people running them have a great many responsibilities.  One of the functions I hear bantered about is the need to “maintain the traditions of the event”.  In my opinion, this perceived function has ultimately led to a nearly total halt to the advancement of the event.  Stunt contests as we know them, have remained virtually unchanged for more than 40 years.  Other than the addition of the skill classes, nearly all aspects of the stunt contest including scoring, judging methods, contest format, scoring tabulation, and the pattern itself have remained almost completely unchanged.

So, if some people think that remaining unchanged is the ultimate function of our little endeavor, then the event has been very successful.  Indeed, in terms of the contest format and practice itself, if remaining true to “the way we did it in 1963” is the ultimate goal of the stunt contest, then control line stunt is (by far) the most successful faction of modeling on planet Earth.

I completely go the other way; I do not feel that stunt contests are for exercising traditions.  Admittedly, I have been pretty outspoken about this subject for some time so this may not be any real surprise to many who might read this.  It is my view that Classic Stunt and Old time Stunt maintain the “traditions” of the event just fine, and as I understand it, these events were expressly put into place for that function. 

It is my belief that the modern CLPA event should be just that; MODERN.

In general, flying for fun is a hobby; flying in competition is a sport.  All sports evolve.  The reason they evolve is because the competitors get better in succeeding generations.  Performance increases as equipment improves, coaching gets better, and as a result margins between the competitors tighten as everyone elevates.  As a result, Distinguishing between performers becomes more difficult.  As an example, look at golf.  Some would argue that golf has remained unchanged for 400 years, and they would be wrong.  True, that while the basic rules and premise of the game has remained virtually unchanged, the measure of performance of the players has changed radically.  As players and equipment have improved, courses have been made incredibly more difficult.  Modern courses have been lengthened, fairways have been narrowed, rough has been grown higher and thicker, and greens have been made faster and more undulating.  Even an old course can be made to have a whole new set of “teeth” with a little fertilizer, a mower, and some tricky pin placements.  All of this is been done to separate the field and narrow the performance band.  As players improve, something is needed to “drive the cream to the top”.

To evolve, we have to examine where we have been historically.  I think that a brief study of the typical stunt contest would be productive.  First, we have to ask ourselves, what have we learned after 40 years of stunt contests?  It should be a generally accepted fact that we have a huge database of history from which to glean precious contest information, and this history should be useful for determining the strengths and weaknesses of our methods.  If we could simply be honest with ourselves, and actually allow some open, honest discussion while throwing politics out the window, we might be able to make improvements. 

Some points of our current method:

•   Stunt contests are subjective.  Even though the subject of stunt judging has been historically considered a taboo subject for public consumption, it is a set in stone fact that stunt contests are not decided by pilots, planes, or patterns.  In fact, they are decided by judges.  It is also a fact that judges are human beings and have their own opinions, viewpoints, and pre-conceived notions.  At a contest, judges are asked to exercise their opinions, and that is exactly what they do.  As pilots we all accept that fact when we pay our entrance fee.
•   As a general fact of history, some judges are more neutral than others.  While I am in no way trying to be controversial, it is no secret that historically some judges have brought pre-conceived notions to the circle with them.  It is also not a secret that many others are more neutral and are able to disconnect their outside opinions from their judging.  Just from my personal observation, I would be willing to assert that very few local level contests are won by total strangers to the area.  This might happen on occasion, but it is rare.  Although my methods are not scientific, I would be willing to bet that there is data to support the hypothesis that “local flyers generally win local contests, especially when judged by local judges.  Put another way, judges score “what they know and who they know” best.
•   Stunt judging in its current form, when done correctly, is very difficult.  Not only is stunt judging difficult in terms of being able to recognize mistakes when they are made in tenths of second increments from 100 feet away, it is difficult in the fact that a number must be assigned to the mistake using a completely arbitrary system.  Adding to this difficulty is the fact that there is no set deduction scheme for the judge to use to be found in the rulebook.  Deduction schemes are found in nearly all judged sports.  Some examples are gymnastics, diving, ice skating etc but we do not use them in CLPA.  In fact, the stunt portion of the AMA rulebook is really just a series of “suggestions” for judging, not really “rules” for judging. 
•   The scoring of the event is subjective, and human beings are prone to error.  This is a just a fact.  Due to this fact, it would seem that minimizing the subjective elements in judging would be a productive improvement.  As discussed before, for some reason, stunt judging has remained virtually unchanged since its very beginning.  It is well known fact, for example, that accurately seeing maneuver size from the opposite side of the circle is very, very difficult.  It is a pretty well known fact that the addition of a side judge would be a drastic improvement in the ability to see angles defined by the rulebook, but for some reason a side judge has never been used (although it has been proposed several times over the decades). 
•   Finding highly qualified judges in large numbers for contests can often be difficult.  This is especially true if one is seeking judges that have demonstrated both judging proficiency and neutrality.
•   Stunt contests generally require judges to perform their jobs consistently for long periods of time in difficult conditions.  The typical stunt contest format requires a judge to sit out in the sun, wind, heat, rain, etc and judge all of the flyers consistently for hours on end.  Some contests have multi day formats, so the abuse can continue for several days.
•   Stunt contests are often decided by a single point or even a fraction of a point no matter how large the scores.  Even with expert level scores over 550 in a typical AMA stunt contest, most contests are decided by the slightest margins.  For reasons sited above, judges have a tendency to judge very conservatively, so many flyers receive very similar scores. The AMA and FAI scoring systems both, as I see it, basically encourage "middle of the road" scoring because the possibility of ballooning is always a consideration.
•   Stunt contests are often decided by the weather.  This is just a fact.  I have personally witnessed the weather decide the most prestigious contests.  All it takes is a break in a spat of horrific weather for a decent pilot to receive huge scores over pilots who were forced to fly in brutal conditions.  In Texas, you want to get a score in the morning before the wind kicks up in the afternoon.
•   The flying order of a contest can often effect the scoring.  It is no secret that being first to fly is less than desirable.  Typically, the judges are concerned that they will start too high or too low, so they start out scoring very conservatively.
•   Stunt contests require large amounts of scoring tabulation.  Someone has to add up all of these scores from all of these flights, and then these scores must be verified and posted.  This requires additional manpower and expertise.
•   If the judges need a break, the contest stops.
•   Typically, local stunt contests consist of two official flights and a lot of sitting around waiting to fly.  Nearly all local contest formats allow for one flight in the morning and one flight in the afternoon (think of one flight before lunch and one after).  This is so common that I have had numerous conversations discussing the fact that pilots must nearly always deal with the fact that one flight of a contest will be in the cool air in the morning and one in the heat of the afternoon.  To me, driving for several hours and then sitting out in the sun all day to fly twice does not always seems attractive.
•   Stunt contests are generally not considered much fun to watch.  While it could be argued that watching a stunt contest is just completely boring, I think it could also be argued that it is difficult to be engaged as a spectator, and the format of the contest does little to help this situation.  Stunt contests are pretty flat… everyone flies and then they announce a winner.  That is a about it.

Instead of focusing on what we have been doing historically, let us take a completely different tact.  Let us do a little “out of the box thinking”.   

Ultimately, the goals of a contest are supposed to be simple.  The way I see it, the function of a CL stunt contest is as follows:

•   Have fun
•   Let every contestant fly as much as practically possible
•   Find the best flier in the bunch
•   Do all of the above using the easiest to manage, most fair, and least subjective manner possible
•   Be fun to watch (this is probably too much to ask, right?)

That is about all that is of a concern to me… everything else is just minutia.  If you stop reading right now, I think the point has been made.  There is nothing wrong with thinking “outside of the box” when it comes to contest format. 

My solution to the issues sited above is the TOC (Tournament of Champions) stunt contest format.  This type of contest is based on Phil Cartiers’ “head to head” stunt format.  First of all, the format is unlike any other stunt contest flown today, in that it is a “match play” version of what we normally do.  In golf terms, the way we organize a stunt contest today would be considered a “stroke play” tournament.  The similarities are that everyone flies and the scores are looked at overall to determine the winner.  In match play golf, each hole is a separate contest.  The only thing that matters in the end is for one contestant to win more holes.  The popular Skins Game is a version of match play, and appears to have been invented for television.

Generally, the head to head contest format seeks to pair up flyers that would be required to compete back to back to win individual “matches” to advance to the next round.  The TOC format is designed to use a standard double elimination format used in a multitude of sports for tournaments all over the world to determine the order of the matches. 

There are many advantages to the “head to head” match style format over the current contest format:

•   Because each match is a totally separate contest of its own, it is not important to have a fixed judging corps judge the entire contest to determine a winner.  When it comes to judging a head to head match, the only important thing is to determine at outright winner in each match.  The judging corps could literally be different for every single match if needed.
•   Due to the double elimination tournament format, each flyer that enters a head to head tournament would be guaranteed that they get to fly a MINIMUM of two flights.  As stated before, the typical stunt contest allows for two flights for everyone in the contest.  Using the TOC format, the lowest performing flyer in the contest will get to fly the same number of flights that they would normally be allowed to fly in the current system.  The second lowest ranked flyer would fly three matches, and so on and so on, up to the winner.
•   Since matches are flown “back to back” the chances are that both fliers will be flying their match in the same weather.  This greatly levels the playing field for the entire tournament,
•   The head to head format makes the flying order of the contest irrelevant.
•   Each match, since it is a contest of its own, would allow for the “pressure players” to thrive.  I would propose there would be no re-flies as there are in our current system.  I believe that re-fly rules are constantly abused.  Do you want a free practice flight at the Nats without penalty?  Leave your handle thong hanging.  Instant practice flight.  The TOC format would change the current AMA rules would be in relation to the definition of an “attempt”.  The only “do overs” allowed would be in relation to engine starting.  Once the airplane wheels leave the ground, the flight for that match becomes official.  Any failures to follow the rules such as losing an airplane part or not wearing your handle thong would no longer be counted as “an attempt” but a loss of the match.  If you get a bad engine run, you can either choose to fly anyway or lose the match, it is that simple.
•   Since it is no longer important to be “consistent” over an entire days judging, the current scoring system can be modified.  In a head to head contest the only thing that matters is deciding the current match between two flyers. The only important outcome is to determine at outright winner in each match.  Due to this fact, the TOC would allow a much more decisive scoring system than the current system.  Much of the current scoring system encourages average scoring to eliminate the possibility of ballooning of the scores.  Since we do not care about the score ballooning effect any more, we are free to use more extreme measures to be decisive.

In an ideal setting, (4) judges would be used for each match.  (3) of the judges would be positioned upwind, and (1) would be positioned to the side. 

•   Two of the upwind judges will be judging maneuver shape.  The sole job of these two judges is to grade the shape of the maneuver as defined by the rulebook.  Is a square a square in shape?  Is a triangle triangular, are rounds round, etc.  These judges watch the entire maneuver for the correct shape.  Position in the hemisphere is irrelevant.  Size is irrelevant. Scores are from 1 to 10 for each maneuver. The (2) shape judges' scores are averaged to make one shape score (in a manpower pinch, (1) shape judge could be used instead of two).
•   The third upwind judge would be responsible for scoring the corner quality, tightness, bobbles, and airplane tracking.  The sole responsibility of this judge is to watch the airplane as it flies through the maneuver.  Scores are from 1 to 10 for each maneuver.
•   The final judge would be placed 90 degrees to the maneuver.  The 90 degree judge would be to stand to the side and grade 45-90 degree aspects of the maneuver, as well as the accuracy of the maneuver bottoms.  Scores are from 1 to 10 for each maneuver.

Now we have (3) sets of scores each derived from completely independent variables within the pattern.  We have (1) averaged shape score, (1) corner and bobble score, and (1) size, position, and bottom score.  To create spread between the flyers it is imperative that the scores be used as multipliers, and not averaged.  Using scores that are multiplied is the true secret to creating spread in the finish scores.

•   The beauty of using multipliers is that they can be changed at random.  It was the intention to vary the multipliers from round to round of the tournament.  For example, we might leave the scores flat for the first round.  For example, for the second round we might double the "corner" judges' multiplier, putting an increased emphasis on corners for that round.  For the third round we multiply the "shape" judges’ multiplier by 4, etc.  Between rounds numbers could be drawn from a hat to determine multipliers.  Each change could be announced before the subsequent round or match.  These changes would force fliers to emphasize different aspects of the pattern.  This would also reward the flyers truly flying the pattern closest to the rulebook on the whole.
•   One truly important advantage of the TOC judging format is that training judges would be infinitely easier.  No longer would a judge be solely responsible to assess every single aspect of a maneuver.  Any given judge would only be responsible to watch a specific portion of the maneuver to which he is assigned.  For example, I believe that nearly everyone could be taught correct shapes, and could judge whether a round is round, a square is square, etc and assign a 10 point scale to this single attribute.  Also, it is certainly easier to assess turns and bobbles if you are free to not watch the shape, etc. Heck, I could train fliers’ wives to judge 5-45-90 with 20 minutes of training.  Side judging is very obvious in my opinion (why we do not use it in the current AMA contest format I will never know).
•   Pilots can be recruited for judging.  Once a flyer has been eliminated from the contest, he can be recruited to judge for later matches.  It is my belief that the best judges of the pattern itself are the pilots.  No one spends more time looking at patterns than the pilots.
•   Tabulating could be made easier.  Since we are using 10 point scoring, no appearance points (my TOC is a “flying only” event), and no pattern points (no need), scoring becomes much easier.  Each judge can add their own scores, and write their scores on a hand held chalkboard and hold it up for everyone to see (no more score sheet runners).  In my world, the scores would be entered into an Excel spreadsheet on a laptop PC so that the match formulas could be easily changed. So, the TOC only needs one scorekeeper, one laptop, and no runners.
•   Lastly, dare I say it; I think match flying would be infinitely more interesting to watch.  For the first time, the audience would be able to easily understand what is going on in the contest, and the contest excitement would build with each round.

Not to say that the “head to head” format does not have negative issues of its own.  One of the issues with this format is that the contest may require more time or more circles to get all of the flights in to complete the contest.  The idea is to fly a lot, and there would indeed be a lot of flying with a double elimination format. 

Dennis Adamisin ran down the format for a 16 flyer match (Writer’s Note:  most people do not know that I secretly want to change my name to Adamisin---this is my blatant butt kissing moment):

“Round 1: 16 flyers, random match, 8 win, 8 lose. Winners fly winners, losers fly losers.
Round 2: 16 flyers, 4 get second win (2-0) 4 get first loss (1-1), 4 get first win (1-1), 4 get second loss (0-2) and are eliminated
Round 3: 12 flyers, 2 get 3rd win (3-0), 2 get first loss (2-1), 4 get second win(2-1), 4 get 2nd loss(1-2) and are eliminated
Round 4:  8 flyers, 1 gets 4th win (4-0), 1 gets first loss (3-1), 3 get 3rd win (3-1), 3 get second loss (2-2) and are eliminated
Round 5: 5 flyers, 1 gets a "bye" (4-0) 2 get 4th win (4-1) 2 get 2nd loss (3-2) and are eliminated
Round 6: 3 flyers, flyer 1 gets another bye (Huh), 1 gets 5th win (5-1) 1 gets 2nd loss (4-2) and eliminated
Round 7: 2 flyers, if 1 wins he wins contest with 5-0 record, loser is 5-2. If he loses his record is 5-1, opponent now 6-1
Round 8: winner takes all; winners record either 6-1 or 7-1.

63 flights for a 16 man contest.”

As we can see, that is double the amount of flights for typical local contest (which would have 32 flights for 16 entrants).  So, for a large turnout it is possible that more circles would need to be utilized to finish on time, or that the contest might need to be stretched to all day or multiple days.  While the expertise of the judges may not need to be high as the current format to be effective, a CD will need to recruit more judges if more circles are utilized.

In closing, no matter what you think of what was written here, the idea behind this kind of discussion is to get the reader thinking.  If you read this and thought “this guy is out to lunch” that is fine (it would certainly not be the first time I heard this sentiment).  If the head to head stunt format is too much to swallow, then consider the judging format discussion alone.  Many of the ideas outlined here are germane to the current event as it stands today.  Much of what has been discussed here has been discussed thousands of times in hushed whispers by countless flyers, judges, and contest organizers.  Not to mention that discussions of subjects such as judging methods and contest outcomes were occasionally seen in print years ago, but much less now.  It is almost like the subject is off limits in the modern era, and anyone who wishes to discuss it is considered controversial.  I think this is counter productive in the extreme.

My ultimate message is that we all need to be thinking about the future and not the past.  This means that we need open minds and open discussion.  It can be very hard to be open minded, and I am in no way claiming to have it all figured out.  In general, we need to be constantly asking ourselves questions:  What are we doing here?  What are our goals?  Is change a bad thing?  Is it time to address the issues inherent in our event and start to move forward?  Asking these basic questions might lead to some wonderful results down the road.  No matter what, as long as people are thinking for themselves, I will be happy.

"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2008, 12:13:09 PM »
This is going to  be in CLW?  DOC Holliday
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.

Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2008, 12:20:29 PM »
This is going to  be in CLW?  DOC Holliday

Yes...
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline BillLee

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2008, 12:31:47 PM »
Brad;

Interesting!

How about sponsoring a contest and putting together the manpower, etc., that would be needed, then run the contest and see how it works? Dallas has a wonderful flying site that you could use, and all that would be needed would be for you to get together the help and the sanction and the ...

Regards,

Bill Lee

Bill Lee
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2008, 12:39:33 PM »
Brad;

Interesting!

How about sponsoring a contest and putting together the manpower, etc., that would be needed, then run the contest and see how it works? Dallas has a wonderful flying site that you could use, and all that would be needed would be for you to get together the help and the sanction and the ...

Regards,

Bill Lee

 S?P

I proposed running the TOC at Dallas three years ago at the October date.  I spoke to the CD and assistant CD.  The assistant loved the idea, the CD did not.

I had the local Marine recruiter offer to provide all the manpower I needed.  As far as "sanctions", I actually am not sure I would need a "sanction" for a head to head contest.

I have been talking to the guys in Tulsa, as their location might be better and they are historically very open minded guys.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Chris McMillin

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2008, 12:49:45 PM »
Go for it, I'm there.
Chris...

Offline BillLee

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2008, 02:22:03 PM »
I proposed running the TOC at Dallas three years ago at the October date.  I spoke to the CD and assistant CD.  The assistant loved the idea, the CD did not.

I had the local Marine recruiter offer to provide all the manpower I needed.  As far as "sanctions", I actually am not sure I would need a "sanction" for a head to head contest.

I have been talking to the guys in Tulsa, as their location might be better and they are historically very open minded guys.

You see, Brad, that's just the problem. You asked the local club to host the contest and use one of their historical dates/contests for your contest. It really doesn't surprise me that you got turned down.

You want it to happen? YOU host it. Get a date that isn't already being used. Create a NEW contest.

Then let it happen and see what the results are. If it works, do it again.  If it proves to be popular, the old way will eventually wither away. If not, well, .... But please don't expect the folks who want and like to do it the old way to jump on your band wagon, at least not at first. Demonstrate the idea works first. All the neat ideas for new format are just that: ideas. Without the active effort to push it through, the ideas are worth just about the paper they're written on.

I suggest that you also not couch this new format in words that make it look like it's to replace the old. Rather, make it  a new event. Call it "Aerobatic Elimination" or "King-of-the-Hill Stunt" or some such. Just don't make folks think that this is to replace the "modern" way of doing things.

And, as you mention, no sanction is really needed other than to provide a bit of assurance that your date isn't in conflict with other events in the area. And if you can get the local Marine recruiter office to provide the needed manpower, well, all the better. If you want to see what dates are available, you can go to the DMAA website where I keep a District 8 calendar. Find a weekend when you can do it and get back to me. I'll even help you fill out the sanction application!  :)

Regards,

Bill Lee
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2008, 02:25:01 PM »
Bradley, as I have told you many times, you are not a stunt flyer; you are a combat flyer.  You have the build and building capabilities for combat, and you have the perfect personality.  What you plea for above currently exists.  It's a combat contest.  To wit:

"The scoring of the event is subjective"  The scoring of combat is objective: cuts, kills, air time.

"Finding highly qualified judges in large numbers for contests can often be difficult."  No sweat.  For the Bladder Grabber, we use stunt fliers. 

"Stunt contests generally require judges to perform their jobs consistently for long periods of time in difficult conditions."  "The flying order of a contest can often effect ["affect", I think you mean] the scoring." You cite these and other good reasons for an elimination tournament, rather than the current stunt format.  This is how combat contests have been run for half a century (because it works; not because of tradition).  Combat judging is a little more dangerous than stunt judging, however.

"Stunt contests require large amounts of scoring tabulation."  Your proposed solution seems weak to me. Combat contests, however, require bloody little tabulation.  I did the tabulation for the last Grabber.  Mostly I just sat on my butt and ate.  The circle marshall would walk out and tell me who won each match, and I'd mark it down.

"Typically, local stunt contests consist of two official flights and a lot of sitting around waiting to fly."  Combat contests consist of lots of matches (if you're winning), and the intervening time is spent fixing airplanes, cleaning engines, and dressing wounds.  As in your procedure, defeated contestants can be recruited to judge.  In the case of combat contests,  defeated contestants can be recruited to replace injured or frightened stunt fliers. 

"Stunt contests are often decided by the weather."  That's why stunt is all luck.  In combat, both fliers get the same weather at the same time. 

"...no appearance points (my TOC is a 'flying only' event)..."  Combat has no appearance points, and it did away with the BOM so we could outsource the building (there's a lot of it) to eastern Europe, where the time/money ratio is higher.  The airplanes look like ****, but what they look like is not the main attraction to the contest, as in stunt (see next item)

"Stunt contests are generally not considered much fun to watch."  This is where you are way off base.  You propose something that has twice as many of the same flights, hence is twice as boring.  Having more judges merely means there is more than twice as much boredom perpetrated.  When it comes to being fun to watch, you can't beat combat, particularly at European contests lately with all the chiquitas that are showing up. 

"This type of contest is based on Phil Cartiers’ 'head to head' stunt format."  Do you know who Phil Cartier is? 

"Much of what has been discussed here has been discussed thousands of times in hushed whispers..."  Combat fliers do not discuss things in hushed whispers, because: 1) they, like you, are not the sort of people who discuss in hushed whispers, and 2) you can't hear hushed whispers at a combat contest. 

"...most people do not know that I secretly want to change my name to Adamisin---this is my blatant butt kissing moment"  Just what was your original name?

Howard (call me Riley) Rush








 

 

 
The Jive Combat Team
Making combat and stunt great again

Offline ptg

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2008, 02:44:14 PM »
My, my, my, Col. (Howard Rush to the uninitiated)

We must support this lad in his ambitious quest!  We have trained for such an event on Regional, National and International venues.  Will they know what we mean when we say "Got the knot"?

PT
PT Granderson

Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2008, 03:25:48 PM »
You see, Brad, that's just the problem. You asked the local club to host the contest and use one of their historical dates/contests for your contest. It really doesn't surprise me that you got turned down.

You want it to happen? YOU host it. Get a date that isn't already being used. Create a NEW contest.


Ultimately, that is the plan.

Getting a date that does not step on someone else in the district is not as easy as it sounds.  I do not want to step on someone else's contest.  To replace a current contest was one option.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
-George Bernard Shaw

Offline Jo Ann Keville

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2008, 05:00:35 PM »
Brad, if you feel this sort of contest would be a good thing, then just do it. Over 20 years ago, Mike Keville came up with the idea for the Vintage Stunt Championships. I can't tell you how many people said that was silly and that having a contest with only two events would never work. No one would travel very far for only two events.The first year there were approx 17 entry's in one event and maybe 16 entry's in the other event. But he put it together anyway. He believed in his idea. The first VSC was held in Calif at Whittier Narrows. Then it was moved to Tucson Arizona and again Mike was told, now if you move it to Tucson then it surely will die. Well it is still there and it is bigger and better than ever. It went from a two day contest to this next year will last for an entire 5 days. So don't let anyone tell you it won't work. You will never know till you try. The first one will be the hardest. It is difficult to convince people to work at a new and different contest. But keep pushing and get them to help you. Once you can find enough people who think that just maybe it might work you pick a spot, pick a date and then just go for it. The Kevilles were even told at the first VSC that if they didn't change things that no one would come back again. They were wrong. Today it is one of the biggest Stunt contests anywhere in the world. And they come from near and far to participate and it still only has two main events.The only one added was the ignition event. So if you believe in your dream it will work. I know first hand as I was part of that dream and will always be proud that I supported that dream. And I would do it again in a heart beat. Good luck, just do it,
JoAnn Keville

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2008, 05:17:45 PM »
Well said JoAnn


I would go to it, although I would never make it out of the "losers bracket" it sounds like it would be pretty fun. 

B

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #12 on: September 15, 2008, 05:20:23 PM »
I appreciate the support Jo Ann, that is very nice.

I believe you could make the argument that VSC might have saved stunt in some ways.

I plan to talk to the Tulsa club (they are GREAT guys).

Apparently, I have a CD too!!!

Keep in minds everyone, writing articles every issue is not as easy as it sounds!  I just thought a frank discussion of judging and formats would be interesting and entertaining.  I hope you can agree with that.

However, I must admit, I am dying to do a contest of my own.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Offline BillLee

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #13 on: September 15, 2008, 05:47:57 PM »
Ultimately, that is the plan.

Getting a date that does not step on someone else in the district is not as easy as it sounds.  I do not want to step on someone else's contest.  To replace a current contest was one option.

Brad, I suggest you ask the Tulsa club to host your contest on the last weekend in September in place of their current "Tulsa Gluedobbers Stunt Contest". It would be interesting to see how much these "GREAT guys" would go for that idea.   >:D

But please do take a look at the DMAA calendar. The open weekends in the District are evident there, the only exception being the non-contest traditional Fish Fry at the Gleason's the end of October.

Regards,

Bill Lee
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #14 on: September 15, 2008, 06:59:22 PM »
Brad, I suggest you ask the Tulsa club to host your contest on the last weekend in September in place of their current "Tulsa Gluedobbers Stunt Contest". It would be interesting to see how much these "GREAT guys" would go for that idea.   >:D

The Tulsa guys would be "great guys" whether they liked my ideas or not...  like I said they are pretty open minded (and great guys too boot).
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2008, 08:00:07 AM »
Guess the president of the Tulsa Gluedobbers Control Line Club should chime in..

Brad is welcome to hold his contest in my front yard, we are centrally located, have 3 circles (grass but pretty nice), room to park 20 to 30 cars, two shelters, an air conditioned club house and the only CL flying site in the world with a web cam.

As I have told Brad all I can promise at this time is my help as I have not yet asked the other club members. I would guess we can find enough Tulsa volunteers to help set everything up but finding judges and people to help during the contest would be in Brads hands.

Personally I would like to see it happen but if it's ever going to become a reality, Brad you are the one that needs to find a good date and make it happen.

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2008, 08:34:59 AM »
Guess the president of the Tulsa Gluedobbers Control Line Club should chime in..

Bob, do you think the club would give up their traditional end-of-September date for Brad to hold his contest?

BTW, Marvin called last night and seemed excited about working with you to use and refine his appearance point scoring method.

Regards,

Bill Lee
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2008, 08:48:15 AM »
Bob, do you think the club would give up their traditional end-of-September date for Brad to hold his contest?

What is your deal, Bill?

Nobody asked anybody to replace "their" contest with "my" contest.  Ever.  So, I am not sure what your point is exactly.  Let it go, man...
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2008, 08:56:33 AM »
Personally I would like to see it happen but if it's ever going to become a reality, Brad you are the one that needs to find a good date and make it happen.

No pressure.

I just wrote an article on judging and formats.

We will talk in a few weeks.  I think it would be fun.  Phil Cartier said he wants to CD.  That would be bitchin.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2008, 09:14:53 AM »
Bradley,  as a casual observer to this, can I make the following suggestion?  It may be too late for 2008 to get it organized and done.  I suggest you go to the powers that run the Brodak Fun Fly Contest and see if they would give you time in their schedule to do it.  Also is this first one going to be invitational or wide open?  I also think Brodaks would be the place to do it as there are 6 circles if I have read right on reports.  Sounds like a few local(State) guys are against it or not too enthused.  My thoughts,  DOC Holliday
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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2008, 11:05:12 AM »
What is your deal, Bill?

Oh, nothing really, Brad. I just get a kick out of watching folks squirm when you poke them in the ribs with a sharp stick!  LL~ LL~

Nobody asked anybody to replace "their" contest with "my" contest.  Ever.  So, I am not sure what your point is exactly.  Let it go, man...

Well,....... perhaps a bit of memory refresher is in order.  :)

"I proposed running the TOC at Dallas three years ago at the October date.   I spoke to the CD and assistant CD."

That's a quote. Of something  you wrote back in Post #4 of this topic. If this isn't asking somebody
    "to replace "their" contest with "my" contest"
I wonder what it is.

As I said, Brad, if you really want to see it get done (and I would REALLY like to see it happen, at least once!) then it will have to be YOU, your close friends and other assorted "great people"  :) to make it happen. This is NOT something where you can say "Why don't you guys.....". Since this is the only way it will get done, you will only have yourself to blame if it doesn't.

Regards,

Bill Lee
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2008, 11:44:47 AM »
"I proposed running the TOC at Dallas three years ago at the October date.   I spoke to the CD and assistant CD."

They were also well within their right to say "no". 

When I researched other dates among my friends in District 8, it seemed every single date I proposed within the stunt "season" stepped on some other date.  I wanted use the date from this last weekend in fact, but with the new Memphis contest, that was not possible.  If I were to use THIS weekend it would step on BOTH the Memphis contest and the Tulsa contest.  I really had no interest in having a contest a few weeks before or after the Nats or in the blazing heat of the summer.  The weather in the spring is iffy at best in Dallas.

I still think the first week in September (or September in general)  is one of the best dates for the area.

Like I said, I did devote some time and effort to proposing a unique contest date three years ago, but it is not as simple as it sounds if one is trying to be considerate of other contests.  Which I was trying to be considerate.

I am also glad I can be here to provide you some stick poking entertainment.

PS:  BTW, I have already had my own contest before, it is not like I have no idea what it takes.  Frankly, it was easy.  I got a flying site that had never been used before for a model airplane contest (all I had to do was ask) with acres and acres of fresh asphalt.  Mike Scott and Larry Oakley judged (Larry was not actively flying at the time---he told me he was inspired to start flying again afterward ).  It was really fun.  People fell all over themselves to help me, and were glad to do so.  The CD was local combat flyer, and we did not have a sanction that I remember.  I had a raffle with all of the stuff I got from sponsors sent to me from all over the country to pay for the trophies for the next year (I moved to Columbus after that).  Sadly, the weather sucked (it was held in the Spring in OKC) so that is why I have been down on spring dates ever since.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2008, 12:25:30 PM by Bradley Walker »
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Offline Bob Reeves

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2008, 12:45:05 PM »
Wow, lots of posts while I was out...

Bill, you are just poking.. Of course we would not like the idea of replacing our stunt contest, we didn't even fully appreciate someone scheduling Team Race trials in Dallas on the same weekend. We only have one serious stunt contest a year, the club members go all out and it means allot to us.

Doc, Brodak's is already a week long contest and everyone works hard to get it all done as it is. Personally I think trying to squeeze it in at Brodak's is a bad idea.

Brad, look around the 4th of July.. Haven't looked, maybe the weekend or a couple weekends before or after?? We hold our Triathlon/Mirror Meet on the 4th of July weekend and believe it or not it hasn't been sweltering hot. We have actually had pretty darn good weather, ya it's warm but typically not too bad... Most of the spring weather is over and summer isn't quite in full force yet, at least not like August.

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2008, 11:07:45 PM »
Some background: Brad IM'd his TOC idea to me, I walked through the pairings just to help myself understand how it would shake out and how many flights it would take. 

I do not see a problem with running alternative contest formats.  If there is interest, the events will be sustained or copied.  If no sustaining interest or if it just doesn't work... then move on to something else.  Even our friends in the PGA run a couple Match Play and Stableford Scoring tourneys (instead of Medal play) each season.  Don't see those alternates taking over any time soon, but it provides an interesting diversion.

The "King of the Hill" - TOC format Brad proposes is an interesting concept.  Additionally, it leads to other possible tangents that might be somewhat more managable:

* How about mixing it up: fly 2-3 "normal" rounds with everyone (number of entries not critical) select top 4(?) to advance to double - elim TOC per Brad's outline.  Total flights possibly lower (more manageable?) with LOTS of judges available for the TOC rounds!

* Spin on the above: fly the normal contest to get people in order then compete head to head in ascending order (like the PBA does): single elimination, #5 flies against #4, winner takes on #3, etc...



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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #24 on: September 18, 2008, 05:41:32 AM »
Brad....
I think that this is an interesting concept.
I also think that if you really want to see it to fruition, you ought to become a CD (the test cannot be that tough...I'm one) and find a site. Then run the thing yourself.
Lots of great ideas within this proposal.....

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2008, 05:56:04 AM »
I have started to become a CD TWICE.  I had the form filled out TWICE.  The first time I filled it out and lost it.  The second time I kept the form in my flight box and it got covered in fuel and castor oil.  I had it all filled out and the test and form was pink from Sig fuel and all the ink disappeared. LL~

I guess I have not been in much of hurry, but I had always planned to go into the contest arena again.  Just waiting for the right time...
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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2008, 10:59:38 AM »
I have always liked this idea. I think it would make for a fun, competitive and
interesting contest. Brad is right about the difficulty in finding a date that doesn't
step on somebody else's contest. What with new contest in the last few years
in Baton Rouge, Seguin, Memphis, and ABQ it is very difficult to find an open date.
I'm really don't think Brad should be taken to task for being courteous and considering
what other's are doing.

Steve

Offline Arch Adamisin

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2008, 02:29:47 PM »
Howard,
Either I'm really old or just missed something, but why would you want to change your name?

     Arch

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2008, 02:47:43 PM »
Um, I'm not sure on what level you're asking.  I'm standing pat with my own nomenclature.  Brad, currently Walker, is contemplating changing his to Adamisin. 
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2008, 04:04:19 PM »
Um, I'm not sure on what level you're asking.  I'm standing pat with my own nomenclature.  Brad, currently Walker, is contemplating changing his to Adamisin. 

I just greatly admire the Adamisins.  I am especially a very big fan of Big Art.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Offline Randy Powell

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #30 on: September 18, 2008, 04:24:07 PM »
Well, we sometimes call Howard "Mr. GreenJeans", but apart from that....
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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #31 on: September 18, 2008, 04:29:51 PM »
We are all Big Art fans.  I remember when I, as a snotty kid, first met Art.  It was at a contest in Ohio.  He was very kind and helpful to me when I asked him some dumb questions about a rat racer his tribe was operating.
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Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #32 on: September 18, 2008, 06:03:58 PM »
Art was always so nice to me, and Betty too.  they have a real family attitude.

I was a big admirer of the Adamisin work including airplane design, engine rework, etc.

I remember the stars and stripes Gemini very well, Archie!!!
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Offline Arch Adamisin

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #33 on: September 19, 2008, 06:50:44 AM »
Sorry Howard, I missed the quotation marks. I was just wondering if we were getting another brother.

     Arch

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #34 on: September 19, 2008, 09:20:39 AM »
Brad,

If you are "out to lunch" you are dining at a very swank eatery  :)

I also see the need to move things in a new direction and applaud your thinking.


Kim Doherty
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FAI F2 Subcommittee member

Offline Bradley Walker

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #35 on: September 20, 2008, 03:15:57 PM »
Brad,

If you are "out to lunch" you are dining at a very swank eatery  :)

I also see the need to move things in a new direction and applaud your thinking.


Kim Doherty
FAI F2B Judging/Scoring Committee Leader
FAI F2 Subcommittee member

That is very nice Kim.  I have been following your work.  I watched you fly at the WC's in Muncie also.  Awesome!
"The reasonable man adapts himself to his environment. The unreasonable man adapts his environment to himself, therefore all progress is made by unreasonable men."
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #36 on: September 21, 2008, 08:28:28 PM »
Texas is fortunate to have enough people to have so many contests.  But, with prices going up I am thinking that more local contests are in order.  Was thinking of having an F2D contest for the local guys, but, was told we need two circles.  So go for it Brad.  DOC Holliday
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Re: New article for CLW: Stunt Judging and Formats
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2008, 12:09:53 AM »
The World Champs with approx. 90 contestants used one circle (plus a patch that people could walk to to run out their tanks after matches), so I'd guess that even if all the F2D flyers in the greater KC area showed up, you could get by with one circle.
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