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Author Topic: New adhesives  (Read 8370 times)

Online Dave_Trible

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New adhesives
« on: August 01, 2016, 09:27:05 AM »
While nosing around at the depot I found something new from Dap.  They have a couple CyA glues,  one about like Gorilla Super Glue but the other a slow curing variety.  On certain things like applying sheeting I use Sigment for plenty of working time but there is a weight penalty over CyA.  This slow cure might be worth a try.

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #1 on: August 01, 2016, 10:43:20 AM »
While nosing around at the depot I found something new from Dap.  They have a couple CyA glues,  one about like Gorilla Super Glue but the other a slow curing variety.  On certain things like applying sheeting I use Sigment for plenty of working time but there is a weight penalty over CyA.  This slow cure might be worth a try.

Dave

   SIGment is heavy?  Once it dries it weighs nearly nothing.

    Brett

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #2 on: August 01, 2016, 01:10:47 PM »
I was always told it was heavy-glue sparingly.  I've believed it.  I also think that's a lot of reason guys started using CyA- to save weight.  May be a wives tale but been around as long as I can remember.

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Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2016, 01:11:45 PM »
Since Ambroid is nearly all gone, my next choice is SIGment.  It works well for almost everything except where epoxy is called for.

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Offline Mark Scarborough

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2016, 01:17:42 PM »
I was always told it was heavy-glue sparingly.  I've believed it.  I also think that's a lot of reason guys started using CyA- to save weight.  May be a wives tale but been around as long as I can remember.

Dave
Sigment evaporates solvent and gets lighter, CA weighs what you put on , so from what I have seen, Sigment is lighter,, used properly
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2016, 01:26:28 PM »
I was always told it was heavy-glue sparingly.  I've believed it.  I also think that's a lot of reason guys started using CyA- to save weight.  May be a wives tale but been around as long as I can remember.


   I am pretty sure it is about the lightest glue per unit volume you can have - because at the end, it's something like 70%-ish solvent that evaporates leaving only a small amount of nitrocellulose plastic or similar behind.  It's certainly lighter than PVA-type or aliphatic- adhesives. and certainly lighter than cyanoacrylate per unit volume. It may be about  a wash with CyA because you use less of it, but CyA is almost entirely plastic that stays there forever.

   Brett

Offline dale gleason

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2016, 03:38:26 PM »
To clarify....we're not sheeting over foam with Sigment are we?

dg

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2016, 04:01:42 PM »
The indoor FF flyers use thinned cellulose glue almost exclusively, both for weight and because you can unglue joints for adjustment at the flight line with more thinned glue.

And they're an astonishingly sophisticated and high-tech group, where it'll benefit them.  I don't think they'd use it if there was a lighter alternative.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2016, 06:15:19 PM »
To clarify....we're not sheeting over foam with Sigment are we?

  Not for long, anyway!  I am sure he meant sheeting over ribs, although SIGment doesn't give great working time for that, either. Thick Hot Stuff is great for that, put the glue on the ribs to tack it down, and put accelerator on the sheeting, ~infinite working time and very little shrink. Then reach in with thin and the little tube to complete the bond.

    Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2016, 08:37:10 PM »
The indoor FF flyers use thinned cellulose glue almost exclusively, both for weight and because you can unglue joints for adjustment at the flight line with more thinned glue.

And they're an astonishingly sophisticated and high-tech group, where it'll benefit them.  I don't think they'd use it if there was a lighter alternative.

    I used to fly quite a bit of indoor, and hope to get back to it some day. Still have all my stuff plus some models boxed away. I was taught most of what I know by some of the best indoor fliers in the country at that time, one being Mr. Carl Fries. Carl was one of the founders of the National Free Flight Society and a true gentleman.
   Indoor fliers use thinned cellulose glue for the reason Tim mentioned, plus the flexibility it affords, and lightness. If you use thin CA glue for assembly or repair, it tends to wick up the balsa grain, and where it stops, that is a week point and guaranteed to break at that point when stressed. Indoor models go through quite a bit of abuse bouncing off the ceiling , walls, light fixtures and basket ball goals! They have to be flexible enough to survive this, because you WANT them to scrub the ceiling or hit light fixtures head on, because it slows down or stops the prop for a second and while it's backing up from the impact, it's stalling the prop saving winds. No need to instant glue when building either. Thinned cellulose glue dries very quickly. if Building a penny plane wing, by the time you work from one end of the wing to the other assembling ribs and such, the stuff you glued at the beginning is dry. Get up and go the the john, grab a drink and get back to the bench, and you can take up the frame work. In
   If you want a real challenge, go online some where and down load a plan for a parlor mite model or similar 7 to 8 inch span mini-stick designs, build it, and try for a one minute flight in your living room. You will probably go through several models, between breakage and just going through the learning curve, and by the time to reach that goal, you will have learned a ton about good fit up of glue joints, how to use glues, and the model you get one minute with will probably be half the weight of the first one you built! It's really a lot of fun, cheap and very challenging. If you have access to a large indoor site like a gym, even the old standard Delta Dart or AMA Racer can be made to get pretty good performance from the kits, and light weight models can be built from the same plan form. As much as I like stunt, rubber  power free flight models are the biggest bang for your buck in the hobby.
   As far as C/A glue for stunters, If you use a 2 ounce bottle of C/A glue to build your latest world beater dog, you can bet every ounce of that is in the finished airplane. C/A glue does not sand well either. If you use too much, and have to sand it off, you can sometimes really mess up a good building job by sanding away everything around the glue joint! I advise people, that if you see excess glue coming out of the joint, you have used too much glue! It's not necessarily one of those things where if a little is good and a lot is better! Glue is just like any other tool on your work bench, you have to learn how to use it, and  learn to use the right glue for the job at hand.
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Offline John Park

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2016, 07:54:16 AM »
I've counted up the different glues I used on the model I've just finished - 24 hr. epoxy, 1/2 hr. epoxy, PVA, thin cyano, balsa cement and, to pre-cement the balsa cement joints, a little bottle of cheap clear nail polish, complete with built-in brush.  How on earth did I manage as a kid in the 1950s, when I thought you had to use balsa cement for everything?  Answer: not all that well.  I remember two bellcrank platforms that pulled out, and an engine that parted company with the rest of the model in flight, complete with its beech bearers but, fortunately, not the tank!
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2016, 09:01:16 AM »
Well then-  with its ability to stick various body parts together,  ability to cause flu- like symptoms and make me sneeze ( but not known to cause cancer in rats) I shall dispose of the last of my CyA and purchase all the Sigment in a four state region.  It also tastes better when chewing off the fingers...

Dave
« Last Edit: August 02, 2016, 09:19:15 AM by Dave_Trible »
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Offline RknRusty

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2016, 12:30:54 PM »
   I used to fly quite a bit of indoor, and hope to get back to it some day...

Indoor models go through quite a bit of abuse bouncing off the ceiling , walls, light fixtures and basket ball goals! They have to be flexible enough to survive this, because you WANT them to scrub the ceiling or hit light fixtures head on, because it slows down or stops the prop for a second and while it's backing up from the impact, it's stalling the prop saving winds. No need to instant glue when building either. Thinned cellulose glue dries very quickly. if Building a penny plane wing, by the time you work from one end of the wing to the other assembling ribs and such, the stuff you glued at the beginning is dry. Get up and go the the john, grab a drink and get back to the bench, and you can take up the frame work...

If you want a real challenge, go online some where and down load a plan for a parlor mite model or similar 7 to 8 inch span mini-stick designs, build it, and try for a one minute flight in your living room. You will probably go through several models, between breakage and just going through the learning curve, and by the time to reach that goal, you will have learned a ton about good fit up of glue joints, how to use glues, and the model you get one minute with will probably be half the weight of the first one you built! It's really a lot of fun, cheap and very challenging...

Glue is just like any other tool on your work bench, you have to learn how to use it, and  learn to use the right glue for the job at hand.
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Dan,
That sounds like fun. I have watched a little FF on the Tube, from the tiniest butterfly-like machines with gossamer wings, to the outdoor hurlers. When I get to the point where I can't go to the field and fly, maybe I still have a hobby outlet with indoor flight.

Which reminds me in sort of a twisted way, I was in an "Old Folks' home" the other day and the sounds of Jimi Hendrix were drifting through the air.
Rusty... and creaky too
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2016, 06:18:32 PM »
.  It also tastes better when chewing off the fingers...

Dave
[/quote]

     You know, that is to be taken as a major consideration! I dug out an article by Bill Warner, a noted free flight a designer and author, that was in 2013 Flying Models  for one of his all balsa sheet sport models. He works with a lot of school groups and he recommended Wal-Mart General Purpose Adhesive for building the model. It was a small tube with yellow and black label I think, so I bought a couple justto try and haven't done that yet. With all the things that have curtailed my building efforts of any kind over the last twenty years, I have assembled a big hoard of Ambroid, Testors, Duco, and some SIGment, so I'm ready for the big building session that has built up inside me! And then there are the various white glues and carpenters glues to fall back on. And I still use C/A where I think it is best. One way or the other, I'll get the job done, hopefully!
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Offline paw080

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2016, 04:58:34 PM »
I was always told it was heavy-glue sparingly.  I've believed it.  I also think that's a lot of reason guys started using CyA- to save weight.  May be a wives tale but been around as long as I can remember.

Dave

Hi Dave, a little correction is in order here.  The reason that I remember Cyanoacrylate being first used was to perform on field/post crash repairs.

The first I heard of it was at the 1959 Nationals, it was first known as Eastman 910; and my friends Jim Scarborough and Chuck Furutani used it.

Chuck Furutani used it to repair some serious crash damage to his son's 1/2A FF model.   I also understand you had to know someone in the defense

industry to get it.  I also heard(hearsay) that is was developed to repair tissue damage during triage. Since I too built and flew indoor and outdoor FF,

I learned to use materials and adhesives for strength/weight priorities as well as which glues to avoid when used on thin and easily warped surfaces.

This meant that Ambroid was to be avoided for all indoor stick and paper models.  I'm surprised the older modelers haven't mentioned the use of

bottle glues such as Millers and Modelcraft; these were applied with sticks and wet fingers. Depending on the type of surfaces to be joined,

 I used Sigment, Testors A or B, Comet, Pactra and Wilhold white glue(even though it was made from chicken excrement..yuck).

I've really forgotten several other brands of some very good brands of adhesive I used in the 1950's.  ???

Tony

Offline RknRusty

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2016, 09:45:40 PM »
What kind of glue used to be made from horse bones, is that the cellulose types? Maybe it still is horses.
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Offline Mark Knoepfle

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2016, 10:04:50 PM »
Hide glue. Used in musical instruments. Works fantastically when used on preheated parts with the glue at 140F. I have not tried it on a model plane yet...

Online Dave_Trible

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2016, 07:55:31 AM »
I'm a second generation modeler.  My Dad told me before WWII he would melt old toothbrush handles in acetone from the drug store to make cement to build with.  The closest thing to a hobby shop was a wealthier kid in town had sort of a hobby shop in the attic at his parents house.  After the war it was LePage cement. In some ways maybe we haven't come so far....our cements are still pretty close to those toothbrush handles and acetone.

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Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2016, 08:53:00 AM »
..except that toothbrush handles are no longer celluloid  :)
From classic model cements, I think UHU Hart is the best. It won't become too brittle but is still easy to sand in balsa seams. It's a good glue to join balsa skin sheets when you don't want the seams to show up.

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2016, 09:09:47 AM »
While nosing around at the depot I found something new from Dap.  They have a couple CyA glues,  one about like Gorilla Super Glue but the other a slow curing variety.  On certain things like applying sheeting I use Sigment for plenty of working time but there is a weight penalty over CyA.  This slow cure might be worth a try.

Dave

Could someone tell me about this glue specifically.
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2016, 09:24:11 AM »
Milton I've not actually tried it yet but it appears to be a slow setting variety of 'super glue',  formulated specifically for wood that would give you all the work time you might need to set or reposition stuff you've glued.  There have been a few times I've gotten ahead of myself at the work table and glue something and forgotten a step I needed to do first or a glued part moved or didn't line up right so I had to cut it loose and try again.  This glue might give you a second chance.

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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2016, 09:54:17 AM »
..except that toothbrush handles are no longer celluloid  :)
From classic model cements, I think UHU Hart is the best. It won't become too brittle but is still easy to sand in balsa seams. It's a good glue to join balsa skin sheets when you don't want the seams to show up.

Lauri
Lauri I'm not familiar with that-a European brand? 
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Online Dave_Trible

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2016, 09:58:07 AM »
What kind of glue used to be made from horse bones, is that the cellulose types? Maybe it still is horses.
Rusty I don't know what sent the horses to the glue factory but a 30- second education on the subject revealed that our cements are nitro cellulose which is in-organic.  Most other cellulose is organic,  of plant origin.  I thought it was horse hoofs- not bones?

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2016, 10:34:26 AM »
Lauri I'm not familiar with that-a European brand? 

   Yes, it's a traditional model/household  cement very similar if not identical to Duco Cement.

     Brett

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2016, 05:44:50 PM »
Thanks for the memory, Dave. I'm also a second generation modeler and my dad told me that same story about the tooth brush handles and acetone. I used to buy Lepage's cement at the neighborhood grocery store. Rolled up empty Lepage's tubes often ended up as tip weight glued into Carl Goldberg profile planes.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2016, 06:09:35 PM »
Thanks for the memory, Dave. I'm also a second generation modeler and my dad told me that same story about the tooth brush handles and acetone. I used to buy Lepage's cement at the neighborhood grocery store. Rolled up empty Lepage's tubes often ended up as tip weight glued into Carl Goldberg profile planes.

   If you find the right kind of toothbrush, celluloid or not, that will melt in thinner, you can still do it. I actually tried this about 15 years ago, and it worked fine. Most varieties of plastic model cement are just polystyrene melted in MEK/acetone, or something similar, and it works more-or-less OK on wood, too.

     Brett

Offline Paul Wescott

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2016, 07:27:51 PM »
The indoor FF flyers use thinned cellulose glue almost exclusively, both for weight and because you can unglue joints for adjustment at the flight line with more thinned glue.

Can someone divulge what "Cellulose Glue" is?  How about a brand name please.


I've counted up the different glues I used on the model I've just finished... balsa cement and, to pre-cement the balsa cement joints, a little bottle of cheap clear nail polish, complete with built-in brush.

Also what is Balsa Cement?  Again a brand name would be helpful.  And why "pre-cementing"?  And why with nail polish?  Laquering wood before glueing sounds a lot like PAINTING wood before glueing which is supposed to be a no-no.

Thanks all!

Paul

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2016, 08:12:55 PM »
Can someone divulge what "Cellulose Glue" is?  How about a brand name please.


Also what is Balsa Cement?  Again a brand name would be helpful.  And why "pre-cementing"?  And why with nail polish?  Laquering wood before glueing sounds a lot like PAINTING wood before glueing which is supposed to be a no-no.

Thanks all!

Paul


This is what we get in OZ which is similar to the old Ambroid Balsa Cement.  Acetate based like dope.  Was originally manufactured here in OZ by Aeroflyte Models in Adelaide.

HH

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2016, 08:42:57 PM »
Also what is Balsa Cement?  Again a brand name would be helpful.  And why "pre-cementing"?  And why with nail polish?  Laquering wood before glueing sounds a lot like PAINTING wood before glueing which is supposed to be a no-no.

      Balsa cement = model cement = household cement. It's some variety of plastic dissolved in some variety of solvent. Brand names are Ambroid, SIG-ment, Duco Cement, UHU-Hart, etc. Originally it was nitrocellulose/celluloid (plasticized nitrocellulose) dissolved in a mixture of solvents like MEK, acetone, butyl alchohol, etc. For most purposes, it's like really heavy nitrate dope Ambroid was one of, if not the, first of these. It was originally developed to adhere canvas to the bottom of wooden canoes, where it was painted on to first adhere the cloth, then waterproof it, with a brush. It is probably some variable type of easily soluble plastic like butyl acetate now.

      It has some good and bad characteristics. It dries pretty fast, and sands pretty well. It is not very strong, and since it is viscous and dries so fast, it doesn't penetrate the wood very well, so you put a coat of glue on both surfaces, rub it in, let it sit for a few minutes, then apply more and assemble. It has almost no "grab" (unlike aliphatic resins like Titebond) so you have to hold or clamp the joint until it fully dries, which might be an hour or so. Traditionally, this was done with pins, which leave pinholes to later be filler, or requires complex arrangements of pins to hold the parts without actually going through the part.

    If you need to remove it, more acetone or MEK will easily dissolve it and allow the joint to be remade. This same characteristic sometimes leads to the glue later bleeding through the dope, or at least discoloring it, particularly Ambroid, which is orange.

    It also shrinks when drying just like all solvent-based products, which can pull poorly made joints together tightly, or, more likely, cause warps or dip in the surface above ribs and formers. The green box Nobler was notorious for developing slight dihedral when the glue holding the ribs to the D-tube spar shrinks, because all the slots were on the same side of the spar. The correct method is to alternate the slots top and bottom so that it shrinks the same amount on both sides. or put an additional "anti-warp" spar on the slot side.

   It is very poor for laminating doublers, etc, because it will seal itself off and never dry. I have seen airplanes crashed where the nose split and the Ambroid in the middle of the doubler was still liquid many months later. Still, people got away with it for years, and very many stunt planes were built entirely model cement, including the engine mounts and doublers, and stayed together. Very long term, it's like any lacquer-type product, it continues to gas off for years and gets brittle to the point it can sometimes just turn to powder after decades.

    The need to pre-glue also leads to one of the hallmark experiences of modeling - having it smeared and dried on your fingers and your pants, and later, chewing it off your fingers for the next few days. It's harder to chew off than Cyanoacrylate since it's reasonably flexible.

    But the reason most people know and recall it with fondness is the smell. Building with Ambroid leaves a classic smell that evokes old-line hobby shops where outgassing tube of glue and people building model airplanes in the shop during work hours. The smell of Ambroid and balsa is what hobby shops are supposed to smell like.

    Of course, when hippies came along, they discovered the sniffing/snorting glue (typically Ambroid since that was the most common) cause a long-duration very close exposure to the solvents that caused hallucinations and psychedelic trips. For a long time starting in the '70's some places kept it behind the counter and wouldn't sell it to kids to avoid abuse. Plastic model cement (Testors Cement for Plastic Models ) is very similar except that it contains polystyrene instead of celluloid or similar. For a while they added lemon scent or denatured it in some way to prevent abuse, with limited success, and removed the MEK, which made it work much less good.

   Duco cement and several others I forget is also sold as "household cement" for general-purpose gluing. As far as I and my calibrated nose can tell, Duco and the current clear SIG-Ment might be exactly the same thing, which wouldn't surprise me at all given the unlikely possibility that SIG owns it's own chemical plant.

      Most old-time modelers have fond memories of model cement like Ambroid. However, for almost any practical purpose it is obsolete. Cyanoacrylate, used correctly, is better in almost every way, requires no pins, doesn't shrink much,  and is much, much stronger. Aliphatic resin (Titebond, etc) has a lot of "grab", is much easier since it doesn't require pre-gluing, sands reasonably well, has only moderate shrink (although it DOES) and works better for any air-drying application. Epoxy is stronger, cures in enclosed applications like doublers with no problem, shrink is undetectable, and is chemically nearly impervious to anything. The only thing model cement has over any other glue is sandability, but you can work around that pretty easily with good technique, and will still cause a problem with sanding if you get it on a flat surface.

     I have a lifetime supply of Ambroid (no longer available) and SIG-Ment (still available for now, at least) and you can get Duco anywhere. For some jobs, I get it out and use i just to make the house smell correctly,  and I always have a tube in my repair box that I take to contests.

     Brett

Offline Lauri Malila

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2016, 11:59:02 PM »
   Yes, it's a traditional model/household  cement very similar if not identical to Duco Cement.

     Brett

Uhu Hart is especially a balsa cement. UHU is a German brand.

Lauri

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2016, 12:30:39 AM »
Uhu Hart is especially a balsa cement. UHU is a German brand.

   I understand that, and I had some. It appears in all respects to be nearly identical to the US Duco brand household cement and the current version of SIG-Ment model adhesive.

     Brett

Offline John Park

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2016, 04:31:53 AM »
Excellent exposition by Brett of the strange and wonderful world of balsa cement - so hard to find these days, and (over here) so expensive!  In England in the 1950s, we had at least seven different makes, all with slightly different formulae and properties, and all at the price of a small bar of chocolate.  I don't use it all that much any more, but wouldn't be without it  Don't forget to pre-cement!
You want to make 'em nice, else you get mad lookin' at 'em!

Offline M Spencer

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #32 on: August 05, 2016, 05:53:50 AM »
Olde Adheshives ,

Quote
The genius of the aircraft's construction lay in the innovative and somewhat unorthodox use of seemingly commonplace materials and techniques. The bulk of the Mosquito was made of plywood. Stronger and lighter than most grades of plywood, this special plywood was produced by a combination of 3/8" sheets of Ecuadorean balsawood sandwiched between sheets of Canadian birch plywood. Like a deck of cards, sheets of wood alternated with sheets of a special casein-based (Later formaldehyde) wood glue.

Forming the fuselage was done in concrete moulds. Left and right sides of the fuselage were fitted with bulkheads and structural members separately while the glue cured. Reinforcing was done with hundreds of small brass wood screws. This arrangement greatly simplified the installation of hydraulic lines and other fittings, as the two halves of the fuselage were open for easy access by workers. The two halves of the fuselage were then glued and bolted together, and covered with doped Madapolam fabric.

The wings were also made of wood. To increase strength, the wings were made as one single assembly, onto which the fuselage, once both halves had been mated, was lowered and attached.

Metal was used sparingly in the construction of structural elements. It was mostly used in engine mounts and fairings, control surfaces, and of course, brass screws.


The glue used was initially casein-based. It was changed to a formaldehyde-based preparation when the Mosquito was introduced to fighting in semi-tropical and tropical climates, after some unexplained crashes led to the suspicion that the glue was unable to withstand the climate. De Havilland also developed a technique to accelerate the glue drying by heating it using radio waves.

The specialized wood veneer used in the construction of the Mosquito was made by Roddis Manufacturing in Marshfield, Wisconsin, United States. Hamilton Roddis had teams of dexterous young women ironing the (Unusually thin) strong wood veneer product before shipping to the UK.


Quote
Redux is the generic name of a family of phenol–formaldehyde/polyvinyl–formal adhesives developed by Aero Research Limited (ARL) at Duxford, UK, in the 1940s, subsequently produced by Ciba (ARL). The brand name is now also used for a range of epoxy and bismaleimide adhesives manufactured by Hexcel. The name is a contraction of REsearch at DUXford.

http://www.revolvy.com/main/index.php?s=Redux%20(adhesive)

Aerolite ?

http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/Aerodux-500-Medium-Speed-Cure-p102.html

Quote
    
Printable
Aerodux-500, Medium Speed Cure
Price:
$279.90
Chemical Name:
Aerodux-500 Resorcinol Adhesive
Synonyms:
Resorcinol

Detailed Product Description:

This is an industrial quality resorcinol/formaldehyde adhesive that is rated waterproof/boilproof

and is typically used for structural wood beams.  Due to its strength, and its resistance to the

elements, it is highly recommended for classic wood boat construction and for wood aircraft

construction.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthread.php?86120-aerolite-glue

The Aerolite in the 60s / 70s was mixed from a 20 Kg Bag , with pure water . Hardner brushed on one side of the joint , the thick wjite ' goop ' on the other .
Stapled / pinned / or clamped . Bout 36 Hr Min ' set up ' . L Wt. Aircraft glue used for yachts / sailboats . done Correctly lasts indefinately . 50 years of racing .


Offline dale gleason

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #33 on: August 05, 2016, 07:34:02 AM »
Kaz and Misuru, and some more senior guys on this forum who have visited Japan, may recall "Cemedine-C" glue for balsa.
It came in the lead-foil tube and was similar to Comet glue, but, didn't dry quite as fast or smell as good, and wasn't "hot-fuel proof."

dg

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2016, 09:46:07 AM »
Anyone with a "lifetime" supply of Ambroid will soon find that it will harden in the unopened tube after a while.

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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2016, 09:48:05 AM »
I think it's great that modelers experiment with different adheasives AND other products.  H^^

I have experimented with paints.

However, it would take a great deal of coaching and convincing for me to stop using what I build with.

I only use CA, fast and thick types, 5 minute Epoxy, 25 minute Epoxy, micro-balloons, and clear butyrate dope.

Simple and it works.

Here's a few of my models that I have used just that list on.

Actually, there was one more filler that I no longer use, can't remember the name of it. It was fine, but took to long to set up for sanding. Used it on the P-40 Super Ringmaster.

Charles

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Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #36 on: August 06, 2016, 04:02:35 PM »
Can the Aussie readers still get "Tarzan's Grip" glue? I brought a tube home in '83, after seeing a billboard advertising it on the highway somewhere between Brisbane and Sydney. Smelled just like Duco, or aircraft "fabric cement".

John Mace always built his F1C models with "Fabric Cement" from the local aircraft supply places...probably Spencer's Aircraft. I can still buy Duco at Ace Hardware, but it comes in a plastic bottle. Legendary F2B/Wakefield flier Bob White used Duco, so it must be pretty good stuff.  n~ Steve
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #37 on: August 06, 2016, 04:23:40 PM »
  We used to be able to get some stuff here at the old Afton Hobby Shop, called "Super Model Airplane Cement" or some thing like that. Looked for an old tube of it but can't find any. Carl Fries swore by that stuff and wouldn't use anything else. Was in kind of a pale yellow tube. Ring any bells with anybody else?
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #38 on: August 06, 2016, 04:51:50 PM »
  We used to be able to get some stuff here at the old Afton Hobby Shop, called "Super Model Airplane Cement" or some thing like that. Looked for an old tube of it but can't find any. Carl Fries swore by that stuff and wouldn't use anything else. Was in kind of a pale yellow tube. Ring any bells with anybody else?

   As some point, the Testor's wood model cement was in a yellowish tube (as opposed to orange for the plastic model cement), and Duco used to be in a pale yellow/green tube as well.

      Brett

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #39 on: August 06, 2016, 05:58:09 PM »
   As some point, the Testor's wood model cement was in a yellowish tube (as opposed to orange for the plastic model cement), and Duco used to be in a pale yellow/green tube as well.

      Brett


     Lapage's was in a pale yellow tube also when I was a kid, I'm pretty sure. You could get that just about anywhere back then and it was pretty cheap. May have been made by the same company. We used Ambroid as much as possible because that is what the "good guys" used, but when money was tight, which was pretty much all the time, We would get Lapage's at Brooks Hardware Store. They even sold Testor's "39" fuel for a while. We used to fly North Pacific and Jim Walker dimes store planes, and figured out that the Lepage's was great for quickly repairing those, and re-enforcing the wings where they slid into those plastic wing mounts.
   The stuff I mentioned was Super Model Cement, or Super Airplane cement. Don't remember any adds for it, and this was when I was married already, late seventies to early eighties.

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #40 on: August 06, 2016, 06:04:45 PM »

     Lapage's was in a pale yellow tube also when I was a kid, I'm pretty sure. You could get that just about anywhere back then and it was pretty cheap. May have been made by the same company.

    I would very strongly suspect that all of the clear model cements in the US came from the same source and were just packaged and labelled for different companies, like the "Bob Smith"-type cyanoacrylates are now and they were all ultimately Duco Cement. It certainly acted that way and smelled that way.

     Brett

Offline TigreST

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #41 on: August 06, 2016, 06:29:35 PM »
When I started building (grade 7) it was all about the Ambroid.  Loved the smell of that stuff.  When we could not get that it was Sigment or something similar from Lepages.  Also use UHU. The epoxy available to us was Lepages and I remember it stunk to high heaven, brought to mind dead horses (never smelt a dead horse but...). We used some PVA in there for different tasks but Ambroid was tops in my mind. Very strong if pre-gluing techniques were used.  I remember scoring a quart can of Ambroid and  I was in heaven. "I'll never run out!".   In grade 10 my roomy, Ken House (we dormed out at the American High School at RAF Lakenheath in England) brought in a Nobler kit to our room and a new wiz-bang hot glue gun.  He built the bulk of that Nobler with the hot glue.  I never saw that plane fly. On the CA topic...I thought it was all bout the speed of the build, at least at my skill level and non-competitive flying style.  The speed out "weighed" the weight thing.  Actual never gave the weight of CA a second thought.   In my later years it's still been CA and epoxy when I build.

Tony


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Offline Avaiojet

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #42 on: August 07, 2016, 06:29:42 AM »
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe Tom Morris builds mostly with white carpenter's glue.
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Offline Joseph Patterson

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #43 on: August 07, 2016, 06:50:45 AM »
     I'm sure Tom still uses white glue.
           Doug

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #44 on: August 07, 2016, 03:53:22 PM »
And if you ever read his build articles, he uses very little of it.  Like one drop per joint.
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #45 on: August 07, 2016, 06:44:58 PM »
     I'm sure Tom still uses white glue.


   Pretty sure that is right. I would use aliphatic instead, if I was going to use air-drying water-based glue. It's stronger, has more "grab", and is ultimately the same weight. It's also extremely inexpensive - somewhat more than White Glue but absolutely negligible in the big scheme of things.

     Brett

Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: New adhesives
« Reply #46 on: August 07, 2016, 07:02:40 PM »
Lately, I have used the aliphatic made by Gorrilla glue.  It is white and I usually water it down by 10 to 20%.  I use a glue bottle applicator (per Tom Morris) and his "dot method" of applying glue.  Works quite well.

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