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Author Topic: Never forget December 7 1941  (Read 4159 times)

Online RC Storick

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Never forget December 7 1941
« on: December 07, 2017, 03:06:56 AM »
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Offline kenneth cook

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2017, 03:18:06 AM »
               I'm working today directly across the river from the USS New Jersey. T-6 Texans are going to fly up the river at 9:00 AM. In addition, a wreath will be cast into the river for those fallen followed by the sounding of "Taps."  At 1:45 there will be a launch ceremony commemorating the Jersey's day it left Philadelphia's shipyard one year later on the same day. The same tugboat that pulled the Jersey will be alongside of her. At 2:15 a 40mm anti-aircraft gun which was restored will be fired of her portside. I'm currently working on a 25 story building and I'm going floor to floor. The Jersey is only visible to me from 14 on up. Our crew of guys will be taking a moment of silence. Ken

Offline Bootlegger

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2017, 06:54:07 AM »

  Never Forget any Attack on The United States...
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Offline mike londke

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2017, 08:03:51 AM »
               I'm working today directly across the river from the USS New Jersey. T-6 Texans are going to fly up the river at 9:00 AM. In addition, a wreath will be cast into the river for those fallen followed by the sounding of "Taps."  At 1:45 there will be a launch ceremony commemorating the Jersey's day it left Philadelphia's shipyard one year later on the same day. The same tugboat that pulled the Jersey will be alongside of her. At 2:15 a 40mm anti-aircraft gun which was restored will be fired of her portside. I'm currently working on a 25 story building and I'm going floor to floor. The Jersey is only visible to me from 14 on up. Our crew of guys will be taking a moment of silence. Ken
That's awesome Ken. While I was on active duty stationed at Dam Neck VA a group of us went into Norfolk and toured the USS New Jersey. Massive and impressive firepower. She was still active in the fleet at that time. I was surprised to see it had wooden decks. The 16" guns were a sight to see. On another note I attended the funerals of 2 of the sailors killed in the USS Iowa turret explosion. I was home on leave in MI shortly after the incident and went to pay my respects. Many have paid the ultimate price for the freedoms we enjoy in this country and deserve recognition for their sacrifice.
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Offline Robert Zambelli

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 08:18:01 AM »
My future Father-in-law was at Pearl when the attack took place.
A memory embedded in ones mind forever.
Our flag is flying at half-mast out of respect for the victims and survivors.


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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 09:51:17 AM »
The one history date question I never missed even though the folks at that time didn't know if I was a boy or girl.  Will never be able to thank our veterans and present military for what they do and did. H^^
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2017, 10:23:13 AM »
When I think of Pearl Harbor is always think: 
"So much firepower, so little preparedness".

No wonder the commanding admiral was court-martialled and relieved of command.  Five or ten minutes would have changed the war in our favor.
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Offline don boka

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2017, 11:06:17 AM »
God bless all who died at Pearl Harbor as well as those who have died defending our country and all of us veterans. We belong here!   
What is the problem with those who kneel or turn their backs at our National Anthem?
They have given NOTHING for our country and can leave at any time!
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2017, 02:58:31 PM »
God bless all who died at Pearl Harbor as well as those who have died defending our country and all of us veterans. We belong here!   
What is the problem with those who kneel or turn their backs at our National Anthem?
They have given NOTHING for our country and can leave at any time!

    I agree with you, but they think they are protesting the "common practice" of police hunting down and shooting completely innocent people for racist reasons. Of course that entire narrative is complete and utter nonsense, entirely made up to create exactly this reaction in those who don't bother to research the facts of the matter and to race bait people for political purposes.

       If I thought that the cops were intentionally assassinating black kids (or anyone else, for that matter), I would be right there with them trying to stop it, such a thing would be monstrous and completely and utterly unAmerican.  I would try to do something more useful than disrespecting the flag and the country, but if you actually believe the premise, the doing *something* would be perfectly reasonable.

      You can tell that the people stirring this up don't care one whit about the lives of black people, because if they did, they would be rushing to Detroit and Chicago to stop the utterly obscene indiscriminate murders of black people (and anyone else) that is occurring there on a daily/hourly basis. That they don't seem to care about that at all tells you all you need to know - if there is not political hay/concessions/handouts/indignation associated with it, they don't care even a little bit about the lives being destroyed.

     Brett

Offline Steve Helmick

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2017, 03:09:33 PM »
My flag is up and flying under cold, clear blue skies today. God bless our troops and those who died to protect the best country ever, even with our flaws.  H^^ Steve
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2017, 03:23:28 PM »
    I agree with you, but they think they are protesting the "common practice" of police hunting down and shooting completely innocent people for racist reasons. Of course that entire narrative is complete and utter nonsense, entirely made up to create exactly this reaction in those who don't bother to research the facts of the matter and to race bait people for political purposes.

       If I thought that the cops were intentionally assassinating black kids (or anyone else, for that matter), I would be right there with them trying to stop it, such a thing would be monstrous and completely and utterly unAmerican.  I would try to do something more useful than disrespecting the flag and the country, but if you actually believe the premise, the doing *something* would be perfectly reasonable.

      You can tell that the people stirring this up don't care one whit about the lives of black people, because if they did, they would be rushing to Detroit and Chicago to stop the utterly obscene indiscriminate murders of black people (and anyone else) that is occurring there on a daily/hourly basis. That they don't seem to care about that at all tells you all you need to know - if there is not political hay/concessions/handouts/indignation associated with it, they don't care even a little bit about the lives being destroyed.

     Brett

Brett,
You're absolutely right about everything you said.

It's difficult to believe that reasonably intelligent people, like college graduate "Professional" sports participants, living in multi million dollar "Digs" can't understand that!  In fact it implies that they do in fact understand it but simply use it for self aggrandizement and political purposes.  Perhaps even for money for payment for doing it.

Certainly it has been proven several times that Billionaires like George Soros are behind paying for the "Black Lives Matter" movement.

There are evil forces at work trying desperately to crush America and they are more of a threat currently than any armed force that has ever attacked us!

The "LEFT" has historically used minority groups to foster unrest and political division since before the American Civil War!  In fact it is even written as such in their Mantra "Rules for Radicals".

I would also remind everyone that while the Japanese "Sneak" attack on Perl Harbor was one of the worlds worst atrocities, and an unforgivable act, that Japan is today one of our best Allies in the Pacific.

Randy Cuberly
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2017, 03:25:18 PM »
When I think of Pearl Harbor is always think: 
"So much firepower, so little preparedness".

No wonder the commanding admiral was court-martialled and relieved of command.  Five or ten minutes would have changed the war in our favor.

       If anyone should have been court-martialled that wasn't, it was MacArthur. The day after Pearl Harbor, it was clear to everyone that the Japanese were trying to knock us out in surprise attack. After having repeatedly assured Roosevelt, etc, that he was prepared for any action, forces in the Phillipines were caught on the ground just as badly as Pearl Harbor.

       Short and Kimmel were really just scapegoats. They had some vague orders about being prepared, but not with any specific threat or any detail about what to expect. Kimmel was later absolved of any guilt/culpability. Even Nimitz said it was a "godsend" that the fleet got sunk in the harbor instead at sea (where they would have been had the most aggressive posture been taken), since in a battle of battleships VS *6* carriers they would have all been sunk rapidly with massive loss of life and irretrievable. As it was, almost all of the ships "sunk" at Pearl Harbor were raised and repaired (the Arizona being the notable exception).

     The entire US Pacific Fleet at the time would have been at most a match for the IJN Task group, but it would have been catastrophic to try to get into an extended slugfest/battle of attrition with them at that time. The very best that could have happened was to have fighters scrambled and the ships underway, but strictly for defense, and such an overwhelming force would certainly have inflicted serious harm even with every guy with a Wildcat or Brewster Buffalo to intercept them.

     The IJN was vastly superior to the Pacific Fleet at the time, and while Pearl Harbor was appalling, it's certainly not the worst case. Ultimately, their own failures and adherence to a faulty doctrine (Mahan's "decisive battle") stalled their efforts, Midway (where we decisively won a battle where were heavily outgunned) put them back on their heels, and just as they themselves had predicted, when we recovered, we just overwhelmed them with men, materials, and industrial might.

      Brett
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 08:08:52 PM by Brett Buck »

Online Brett Buck

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2017, 03:43:17 PM »
It's difficult to believe that reasonably intelligent people, like college graduate "Professional" sports participants, living in multi million dollar "Digs" can't understand that!  In fact it implies that they do in fact understand it but simply use it for self aggrandizement and political purposes.  Perhaps even for money for payment for doing it.

       Just my take, but I would not consider Colin Kapernick to be one of our greater scholars, having watched him try and fail to count how many men were "in the box" for ~4 seasons of 49er football.

    But the rest, I think you are jumping to a conclusion. These guys have all lived entirely in "bubbles" of lies and told they were the greatest things since sliced bread from an early age, and they have essentially no life experience outside to develop critical thinking skills. Everyone considered a "leader" has told them the same thing every day for two decades, and I am pretty sure none of them reads or understands (or has even heard of) Thomas Sowell.   I can *easily* believe that they are sincere and genuine.

     Once you assume that, the desire to do *something* is perfectly understandable and in the same situation, I would certainly want to do something.  Of course, what they are doing is pointless and will not accomplish anything even if they were 100% correct about the problem. But they have also been bombarded with nothing except useless and ineffective gestures that accomplish nothing or are counter-productive, and that has been true for at least two generations (since the "War On Poverty" started). So, there is nothing in their "playbook" that would be an effective response in any case.  All the supposed "help" they have been getting has had the effect of destroying their families and communities.

    Any "war" first starts with correctly identifying the enemy, and they certainly have that completely wrong. The real enemy is the "race industry" that exploits them and led them to this point, where they are intentionally teaching kids a whole bunch of stuff that will leave them helpless and get them killed.

      Brett

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2017, 07:34:18 PM »
    I agree with you, but they think they are protesting the "common practice" of police hunting down and shooting completely innocent people for racist reasons.
     Brett

For those people Brett speaks of they may need to watch this clip and follow the easy steps

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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2017, 08:41:48 PM »
For those people Brett speaks of they may need to watch this clip and follow the easy steps


 AWESOME!!!  ;D LL~ LL~ LL~
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Offline Target

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2017, 10:11:20 PM »
Always love that video clip, so much common sense.
I'm doing what i do every day.
Working on base, offering the warfighter weapons testing and evaluations on the pacific missile test range.
Yay.
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2017, 10:18:35 AM »
Guess the clown in North Korea has not studied history.   How many countries have threatened or attacked the good ole USA and wished they hadn't.   I remember the Libyan pilots that they could take on our US Navy pilots.  They wound up fish bait if I remember correctly.
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Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2017, 11:10:48 AM »

The only thing I'm fairly certain of is that it's coming again and this time it will be worse than ever before!

Too many people around that just don't understand what they are doing, or have any idea of consequences!

Seems to be the destiny of mankind to just be stupid and/or greedy!

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Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2017, 12:21:55 PM »
It is incredibly sad to say that I did not hear one person mention Pearl yesterday
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2017, 01:04:52 PM »
I know I keep saying this in a lot of threads...but I am still always astounded at the things I learn on internet forums

One would think 60s to 70s Catholic and Jesuit educations and 40 years military career(s) as well as living much of life overseas, would have me well versed on most US government and history... not so

Much of this my fault as my TV viewing and book reading is mostly Sci-Fi and not nature or history....years and years of day dreaming but learning anything practical

BUT I do know enough facts and lived some of our actual history that I am saddened by the current state of education, false distorted news, re-writing of history....or as Brett suggests...entire generation right now with zero "critical thinking" skills

I can try to have a conversation with some folks... who, when faced with historically correct FACTS---- will still hold dear their deep seated opinion and NOT consider they were lied to or misinformed....

I am usually the odd one who can be curious enough, when faced with some reliable facts, to change a deep seated belief

I was in the Oakland Bay area during 60s~70s Angela Davis, Patti Hearst, Caesar Chavez, and Huey Newton.... Herb Cain of the San Francisco Chronicle called it correctly in his Op_Ed columns...IMO

He suggested Calif capitulation to each of these social demands would be a never ending slippery slope that would eventually bankrupt the working class....seems to me 30 ~40 year later this is now fact

Most of our family with the exception of my sister who dose well in the Gillmor Wine Industry (DESPITE the land costs and TAXES) has moved on to Utah, Texas, Arizona, Virginia, and West Virginia

I did do some reading decades ago on WWII Europe and Pacific Theater...So I do know ( vaguely) the HollyWood movie wood portrayals not real accurate in most cases....

I highly doubt today many under 50 US citizens even have any real clue about Atomic weapons, something I spent most of my careers learning about, guarding, preparing to use, and eventually testing

I have often fantasized/dream that GW Bush should have videotaped the Nuclear Test Treaty and just noticed CNN we were going to detonate ONE more on a Alaska Island..... just to get rid of it (sic) safely
The let CNN show the world a 50 square mile Island evaporating.... Simply to remind the world....who mostly HAVE NOT seen the 1950s tests just how FUBAR a Nuke Iran or others is a very bad idea





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Offline Chad Hill

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2017, 04:01:33 PM »
       If anyone should have been court-martialled that wasn't, it was MacArthur. The day after Pearl Harbor, it was clear to everyone that the Japanese were trying to knock us out in surprise attack. After having repeatedly assured Roosevelt, etc, that he was prepared for any action, forces in the Phillipines were caught on the ground just as badly as Pearl Harbor.

       Short and Kimmel were really just scapegoats. They had some vague orders about being prepared, but not with any specific threat or any detail about what to expect. Kimmel was later absolved of any guilt/culpability. Even Nimitz said it was a "godsend" that the fleet got sunk in the harbor instead at sea (where they would have been had the most aggressive posture been taken), since in a battle of battleships VS *6* carriers they would have all been sunk rapidly with massive loss of life and irretrievable. As it was, almost all of the ships "sunk" at Pearl Harbor were raised and repaired (the Arizona being the notable exception).

     The entire US Pacific Fleet at the time would have been at most a match for the IJN Task group, but it would have been catastrophic to try to get into an extended slugfest/battle of attrition with them at that time. The very best that could have happened was to have fighters scrambled and the ships underway, but strictly for defense, and such an overwhelming force would certainly have inflicted serious harm even with every guy with a Wildcat or Brewster Buffalo to intercept them.

     The IJN was vastly superior to the Pacific Fleet at the time, and while Pearl Harbor was appalling, it's certainly not the worst case. Ultimately, their own failures and adherence to a faulty doctrine (Mahan's "decisive battle") stalled their efforts, Midway (where we decisively won a battle where were heavily outgunned) put them back on their heels, and just as they themselves had predicted, when we recovered, we just overwhelmed them with men, materials, and industrial might.

      Brett
*     *     *     *     *

Brett is right on target. MacArthur was handed a "Get out of Jail Free" card by FDR and remained in command despite his disastrous decisions on the first day of war. The following retreat into Bataan resulted in a debacle largely due to mistakes and oversights committed by MacArthur and his staff.

Kimmel and Short were indeed scapegoats. The US Senate, in 1999, voted to clear their names after extensive hearings and investigations. Curiously, the US Navy refused to hand over 50+ year old records from WW2 having to do with the pre-war and early war efforts to decipher JN-25, the Imperial Japanese Navy secret code. They cited "national security" as the reason. As might be expected, that generated considerable speculation that these records may have revealed a higher level of code breaking prior to the Pearl Harbor attack than was otherwise known to historians.

A top secret USN team of cryptologists, known as CAST, operated codebreaking equipment from a tunnel on Corregidor Island in Manila Bay until they were evacuated on April 8, 1942, less than a month before Corregidor fell. Their mission was to intercept, decipher, and relay JN-25 as well as Japanese diplomatic communications. In recent years it has been discovered that MacArthur left orders that CAST personnel were "not to be captured alive" by Japanese forces.

CAST personnel were originally sworn to lifetime oaths of secrecy, but several made anonymous, unauthorized disclosures to Clay Blair in his 1975 book, "Silent Victory". In 1983, the US Naval Cryptologic Veterans Association wished to interview and quote CAST survivors for a new book called "Intercept Station C". However, they were required to secure permission from what was then known as NAVSECGRU (Naval Security Group, part of the NSA). Certain questions were deemed to be off limits to the veterans. The book has several passages noting that NAVSECGRU cleared it for publication. A second edition of this book, published in 2003, still contains these notes.

Not trying to be a conspiracy theorist here, but why are some of these things still classified?


Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2017, 04:11:19 PM »
It is incredibly sad to say that I did not hear one person mention Pearl yesterday

Not true my friend!

You need to go back and read again.  Read the first 5 or six posts and the end of mine!

I believe we all need to remember the attack on Pearl Harbor, and keep it fresh in our minds as to what can happen when we as a country of free people let down our guard and become complacent with politics as usual!

However, I don't necessarily agree with continuing to denigrate the current Japanese people over what happened 59 years ago when they are now our friends and allies.

We have many enemies in the world today but Japan is not one of them.  9/11 is much closer to home, and Iran and North Korea are alive and well.  In fact Russia is still a great concern!  In fact for several reasons our border with Mexico seems to be much more of a problem than a lot of the above concerns and it seems most people in the Government want to do nothing about it!

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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2017, 04:17:36 PM »
Guess the clown in North Korea has not studied history.   How many countries have threatened or attacked the good ole USA and wished they hadn't.   I remember the Libyan pilots that they could take on our US Navy pilots.  They wound up fish bait if I remember correctly.

   Since the military was put in charge of getting rid of ISIS (as opposed to Johnson-esque meddling by the Obama Administration), ISIS has largely been run off their territory, in about 6 months of effort. Even the people doing it are surprised how easy it was.

      The US Military can certainly do the job, if they are left alone to do it.

    Brett

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2017, 04:23:34 PM »
*     *     *     *     *

Brett is right on target. MacArthur was handed a "Get out of Jail Free" card by FDR and remained in command despite his disastrous decisions on the first day of war. The following retreat into Bataan resulted in a debacle largely due to mistakes and oversights committed by MacArthur and his staff.

Kimmel and Short were indeed scapegoats. The US Senate, in 1999, voted to clear their names after extensive hearings and investigations. Curiously, the US Navy refused to hand over 50+ year old records from WW2 having to do with the pre-war and early war efforts to decipher JN-25, the Imperial Japanese Navy secret code. They cited "national security" as the reason. As might be expected, that generated considerable speculation that these records may have revealed a higher level of code breaking prior to the Pearl Harbor attack than was otherwise known to historians.

A top secret USN team of cryptologists, known as CAST, operated codebreaking equipment from a tunnel on Corregidor Island in Manila Bay until they were evacuated on April 8, 1942, less than a month before Corregidor fell. Their mission was to intercept, decipher, and relay JN-25 as well as Japanese diplomatic communications. In recent years it has been discovered that MacArthur left orders that CAST personnel were "not to be captured alive" by Japanese forces.

CAST personnel were originally sworn to lifetime oaths of secrecy, but several made anonymous, unauthorized disclosures to Clay Blair in his 1975 book, "Silent Victory". In 1983, the US Naval Cryptologic Veterans Association wished to interview and quote CAST survivors for a new book called "Intercept Station C". However, they were required to secure permission from what was then known as NAVSECGRU (Naval Security Group, part of the NSA). Certain questions were deemed to be off limits to the veterans. The book has several passages noting that NAVSECGRU cleared it for publication. A second edition of this book, published in 2003, still contains these notes.

Not trying to be a conspiracy theorist here, but why are some of these things still classified?

Well the theory that seems to hold the most water is that people within the government (including the President and most of congress) wanted the Japanese to attack to give the US a political reason to enter the War.  I believe that is true I just also believe they didn't expect the attack to be so devastating.  Another "Screw Up" by the idiots in charge at the time.  They probably had a "Swamp" in Washington much like the one today.  Remember, one Party and one President had been in charge for a very long time!  Not the best way to run a pop stand or a government!  Over half of Congress today has been in office for over 20 years!  Things tend to get sticky and corrupt when the same people carry power for that long!

I believe the solution to that problem to be "The Convention of States", but that doesn't seem to be rolling along very fast either!

Jus' Say'n

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2017, 04:33:17 PM »

I have often fantasized/dream that GW Bush should have videotaped the Nuclear Test Treaty and just noticed CNN we were going to detonate ONE more on a Alaska Island..... just to get rid of it (sic) safely
The let CNN show the world a 50 square mile Island evaporating.... Simply to remind the world....who mostly HAVE NOT seen the 1950s tests just how FUBAR a Nuke Iran or others is a very bad idea

   I would guess the NK missile threat could be ended in about 5 minutes, and before they even knew what was happening. Send in F-35 and B-2s to knock down every launcher with precision-guided conventional munitions, all with the same time of arrival. They would never know what took them out, the launch pads would just mysteriously explode, more-or-less all at once. No nukes required.

     The problem comes after, when the NK starts the artillery barrage on Seoul. If they try to invade, they will fail, because the DMZ will look like the road out of Basra, far too much close-air support will be brought to bear.   It will be like a human wave attack from WW-I, except there are also A-10s, F-15 Strike Eagles, etc. But there's no way to knock out every single cannon ahead of time, short of nuclear "carpet bombing".

    If there was a solution at hand to provide acceptable civilian casualties in Seoul, this would have already happened, because the majority of this seems pretty simple. The nukes themselves are useless without a viable delivery system, I am sure that they cannot make a nuclear artillery shell.

    This is fundamentally different from, say, Iraq, because your first hit should be the missile sites, and you don't care that much about the command and control. You can assume that everyone down the platoon level knows that if anything happens, the orders are strike out to the south immediately.

     Brett

   

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2017, 04:45:05 PM »
   I would guess the NK missile threat could be ended in about 5 minutes, and before they even knew what was happening. Send in F-35 and B-2s to knock down every launcher with precision-guided conventional munitions, all with the same time of arrival. They would never know what took them out, the launch pads would just mysteriously explode, more-or-less all at once. No nukes required.

     The problem comes after, when the NK starts the artillery barrage on Seoul. If they try to invade, they will fail, because the DMZ will look like the road out of Basra, far too much close-air support will be brought to bear.   It will be like a human wave attack from WW-I, except there are also A-10s, F-15 Strike Eagles, etc. But there's no way to knock out every single cannon ahead of time, short of nuclear "carpet bombing".

    If there was a solution at hand to provide acceptable civilian casualties in Seoul, this would have already happened, because the majority of this seems pretty simple. The nukes themselves are useless without a viable delivery system, I am sure that they cannot make a nuclear artillery shell.

    This is fundamentally different from, say, Iraq, because your first hit should be the missile sites, and you don't care that much about the command and control. You can assume that everyone down the platoon level knows that if anything happens, the orders are strike out to the south immediately.

     Brett

   

Yeah, however don't forget that China made it known that they would support NK if WE attacked them first.
My guess is, that is the "800 lb. Gorilla" in the room right now!

It's not clear whether China would actually follow through with that but I seriously doubt that anyone including Trump really wants to take that chance until all other roads are travelled!

China certainly has a history of protecting and using NK as their mouthpiece for threats!

Randy Cuberly
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Online Brett Buck

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2017, 04:55:36 PM »
Well the theory that seems to hold the most water is that people within the government (including the President and most of congress) wanted the Japanese to attack to give the US a political reason to enter the War.  I believe that is true I just also believe they didn't expect the attack to be so devastating.  Another "Screw Up" by the idiots in charge at the time. 

      I decline to comment on the classification associated with the cryptography observations, but I doubt that it was allowed to happen or Roosevelt or anyone else conspired to cause the attacks.

     Occam's razor seems to apply, we had cut off Japanese supplies and trade, which was fatal to their plans, so they had to do something and hope that they could reach a stalemate.  The only plausible scenario that they come out of it intact is that we didn't have the stomach for it, and we would form a defensible perimeter and leave them alone with East Asia.   

     Of course that was a huge miscalculation, even without the minor detail of the "sneak" attack (that they didn't intend, either), they were going to lose eventually and there was no way on Earth that we were going to compromise with them. They at least partially believed their own bullshit about how weak and decadent we were. And it's not like the US general public was any more realistic.

      Unfortunately it took a lot of people dying to correct everyone's mistaken impressions and get where we got today - where the Japanese are world leaders, and one of our greatest allies, and generally very well-respected by all involved. 

     Brett

Offline Randy Cuberly

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2017, 05:05:15 PM »
      I decline to comment on the classification associated with the cryptography observations, but I doubt that it was allowed to happen or Roosevelt or anyone else conspired to cause the attacks.

     Occam's razor seems to apply, we had cut off Japanese supplies and trade, which was fatal to their plans, so they had to do something and hope that they could reach a stalemate.  The only plausible scenario that they come out of it intact is that we didn't have the stomach for it, and we would form a defensible perimeter and leave them alone with East Asia.   

     Of course that was a huge miscalculation, even without the minor detail of the "sneak" attack (that they didn't intend, either), they were going to lose eventually and there was no way on Earth that we were going to compromise with them. They at least partially believed their own bullshit about how weak and decadent we were. And it's not like the US general public was any more realistic.

      Unfortunately it took a lot of people dying to correct everyone's mistaken impressions and get where we got today - where the Japanese are world leaders, and one of our greatest allies, and generally very well-respected by all involved. 

     Brett

Nice theory Brett, but having worked in cryptography and the nasty Spy world for a considerable time in the US Army Security Agency and Special Forces, I'm sticking to MY theory!

That said, there likely is some truth in both theories!

Randy Cuberly
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Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2017, 05:13:49 PM »
God bless all who died at Pearl Harbor as well as those who have died defending our country and all of us veterans. We belong here!   
What is the problem with those who kneel or turn their backs at our National Anthem?
They have given NOTHING for our country and can leave at any time!
Ssgt. James D. Boka US 55741329.retired.
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US Army.
AKA Don Boka.
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AMEN Don. And AFAIC, I never have to watch foot ball, basket ball or base ball again as long as those a$$ holes disrespect MY/OUR flag.

They make more in one game than I have made in a life time (not that they deserve it) and I'm sure as 'L not oppressed! HB~>

Jerry

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2017, 05:19:27 PM »
As many know our NAVY has 3 color lasers (energy weapons) on Destroyers now. We also have them on aircraft. The public is 50 years behind whats been tested and used. When I get time I have some interesting video from Iraq of some future aircraft I will post after editing. Not blurry or shaky footage but clear images. Remember the SR 71 was flown in the 50tys and still today is the fastest know aircraft to the public.
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Offline Tom Niebuhr

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2017, 06:29:36 PM »
Randy,
I was not talking about the Stunt Forum. I'm sadly talking about the Princeton TX Walmart where I work in the hardware Dept.   Not a word!
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Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2017, 06:48:35 PM »
North Korea is the same size as Ohio, with 2.5 times the population.

NK tests nukes and ICBM's in their our nation, whose longest dimension is only 400 miles.

Just sit back and let 'em radiate themselves to death.
Paul Smith

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2017, 07:33:21 PM »
Complete respect for those that serve our country then and now.....and now a question to chew on....who really won WWII? In my estimation....the Japanese and the Germans. Many of you will say that I must be nuts .Why is he saying that? Easy .....the Japanese and Germans won the "Economic War", one of the most important criteria by which as country is judged as being successful. Yes, we  put the Germans and Japanese back on their feet after the war, but look at their economies since WWII until now ,both have kicked our ass for a very long time .  Until we start making stuff and selling it to "them"....we lost. Cheers,Skip

Offline Paul Smith

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2017, 08:20:36 PM »
The principle benefit of WWII was the prevention of the USSR (the commies) from taking over Europe and America.



Paul Smith

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2017, 09:16:49 PM »
Sparky thanks for sharing the documentary.

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2017, 10:09:22 PM »
I'm sadly talking about the Princeton TX Walmart where I work in the hardware Dept.   Not a word!

 And also sadly, that doesn't surprise me a bit.
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #36 on: December 09, 2017, 09:52:07 AM »
Yes, we  put the Germans and Japanese back on their feet after the war, but look at their economies since WWII until now ,both have kicked our ass for a very long time .  Until we start making stuff and selling it to "them"....we lost. Cheers,Skip

    That's a rampant misapprehension. The world economy more-or-less revolves around the USA, and only since about 2010 has China actually exceeded us as a manufacturer, with Japan a very distant 3rd and Germany FAR behind, not even consequential. Germany and Japan were particularly assisted by the fact that they haven't really had to defend themselves (along with most of the developed world), because we prevented them from doing so as a result of the war. Germany, in particularly, is a repeat offender.
   
    Of course, the USA doesn't make most of the consumer goods, process raw materials like steel, or at least not as much had been done previously, but that's because of our fantastically high standard of living and the costs of employment. Even the poor have cell phones, flat-panel TVs, and one of the biggest issues we have with the poor is *obesity*. No one in this country has to go hungry unless they choose to. Compare that to China, where the poorest still starve to death on a regular basis, and outside the cities, people work in conditions and for wages that would be considered slavery here, under a totalitarian government that has intentionally tried to starve people to death within the last 40 years. The ability of US companies to outsource manufacturing is taking advantage of this almost inconceivable disparity in wealth and living conditions.

     It is morally justifiable? Hard to say, but winning and having a superior way of conducting ourselves is not intrinsically immoral and no one can say we haven't tried to raise the rest of the world to our standards. Far from it, we have pretty consistently promoted our superior concepts and principles everywhere we went. This has led to severe resentment and hostility in other areas, most vocally in Europe and the Middle East, the western Europeans largely feeling resentful that they couldn't have made it on their own and dismissing us as "imperialists" (while they back up their dump trucks at the IMF/World Bank to get their next load of US Dollars) and cultural imbeciles and simpletons. In the Middle East, of course, with the exception of Israel, the dark ages philosophy of radial Islam is sees western civilization quite correctly as a mortal threat to their "way of life", because Western ideas and standards of living are far superior to their own and would rapidly replace Sharia if it wasn't for violent reprisals.

    We won, comprehensively, and continue to set the standard. It's all the rage in pseudo-intellectual circles to blame the US/ourselves for all our failings (which certainly exist) and ignore the overwhelming force for good that the USA represents. We have Donald Trump not because he is a modern-day George Washington, but he was willing to reflect the feelings that we are not intrinsically guilty - unlike Obama, whose primary function appeared to be to go around groveling to other countries for forgiveness, and criticizing the USA (even when he was personally responsible for whatever he was apologizing for...). Many people (enough to get 300+ electoral votes) had heard enough of that crap, and said "enough already".

     Brett
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 04:15:50 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #37 on: December 09, 2017, 12:26:42 PM »
I do not know a whole lot of Political facts post WWI Germany
But having been stationed there 5 times I got to know a bit about the economy

Vaguely I remember we helped rebuild the Volks Wagon car industry and some of their other MGF infrastructure as well as a lot of labor and materiel to rebuild the rail and roads

I had several older NCO mentors getting ready to retire in the 70s when I first got there....they told stories of their fist assignment in the 50s every day out with crews rebuilding something that was bombed to rubble...Infantry, Artillery, Mechanics...all doing civil work

I do know that for 40 years, until 1992, we have an average of 300,000+ active duty service men and women station there

In 1991 I was charged with closing down one of 840 Kasernes...in my Case Echterdingen Army Airfield as part of the closing of the VII US Army Corps headquartered in Stuttgart Germany... within 2 years 73,000 were reassigned or sent home

The economic foot print of 840 Kaserenes we shut, fixed up, and gave back and those 73,000 who spent most of their income in Germany was a significant loss to the Germans and a huge cost saving for USA

I have been retired since 1996 but understand the remaining V US Army Corps has been reduced significantly to just a few brigades and about half a typical Corps foot print

Prior to these draw downs and reductions US cash flow to Germany was nearing 1 Billion per month   something I read once in the Stars and Strips news paper

Status of forces Agreements over the decades almost always favored German economic interests... Non compete of Commissary and Post Exchange system with local stores, 50~80%  civilian hires must be German

Every body hears about Maneuver damage and the Myth of killing a chicken and USA having to pay for that bird and the next three or four generations....

 BUT the reality , despite that one myth, is any time the Military did off base operations we paid dearly for any damage we did...morally I think proper to compensate a farmer for damage to a crop and his land ----BUT some of the pay outs were so inflated we always got screwed

Look into the  August 29th, 1990 C-5 cargo plane crash at Ramstein AFB ...I was in the area

To this day we are paying to eat dirt in a huge complex to remove ANY Jet fuel  --couple of million $$ per month exercise for last 27 years

Not sure about the "Germans Won" on any significant level  -----but I am certain if the British and Americans did not have such a large foot print in that country they would probably be still trying to recover from the devastation of WWII

"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #38 on: December 09, 2017, 03:14:13 PM »

Not sure about the "Germans Won" on any significant level  -----but I am certain if the British and Americans did not have such a large foot print in that country they would probably be still trying to recover from the devastation of WWII

      The British weren't in much better shape than Germany. They had rationing of some stuff out to the mid-50's. They may have been very helpful from a military governorship and administrative perspective but they were more on the receiving end of aid than contributing.

    The USSR was also devastated. The USA rebuilt most of the western world and Asia almost unilaterally. The USSR quickly started the cold war and took over eastern Europe and sort of rebuilt it and kept people alive in their inimitable style, but for the most part, they didn't recover to modern standards until after the wall fell.

    Brett

  p.s. just as a general comment, the default/baseline condition for the human race is living continuously on the edge of starvation/abject poverty (just like every other species). Only by developing superior economic systems have we raised ourselves out of this - first with the agricultural revolution in the 4000 BC time period, where a *few* were raised out of poverty while most still lived a precarious existence, and later with the industrial revolution, which to date has lifted the vast majority of the population far above subsistence, and is continuing. The few places that this is not true are not the result of the inability to produce or procure sufficient resources, but political issues that limit the spreading of the almost inconceivable bounty that the rest of the world produces.

      That the USA with it's advanced use of industrial power, superior principles based in the modern world rather than hanging over from the dark ages, and general good will, is the shining light leading of the industrial world is another example of why I think we have been the greatest boon to mankind the world has ever known.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2017, 04:17:35 PM by Brett Buck »

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2017, 03:36:22 PM »
Timely and important observations by most responders to this thread.  THANKS!

Floyd (USAF: 1952-1956)
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Offline Fredvon4

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #40 on: December 10, 2017, 01:05:41 PM »
Brett, I am not at all cogent of the post WWII British economy or rebuilding

What I was trying to say was from late 40s into the mid 50s... the Brit and US Army did a LOT of internal rebuilding of Germany...I tend to think entirely at the cost of Brit and US Tax payers
 A couple of hundred thousand man workforce....for free....was fairly significant  IMO

My career , as a Enlisted man, and my personal self education--- tended to focus on my needed skill set, and study of the enemy

BUT, just being in any foreign country one can not help getting some Civil affairs/political  knowledge.  Plus we all tended to read the Start and Stripes every day...IMO one of the more balanced news sources....even to this day

With the given name of Frederick Carl von Gortler IV...and 5 tours of Germany, one would think I should be better educated in BOTH US and German history...sadly I would rather enjoy the food and leisure time activities ....and have over 10,000 volks marches miles, travels and explored every boarder country,  and a one season Garmisch-Partenkirchen Ski Patrol assignment...(Paid fun) during my German tours
"A good scare teaches more than good advice"

Fred von Gortler IV

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #41 on: December 10, 2017, 07:27:28 PM »
Finally got to watch and listen to the videos.  In my opinion everybody should watch Kid Rocks video on how not to get your behind kicked by the police.   My Dad always said when an officer says stop, you freeze immediately and don't do any thing until he tells you to.
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Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #42 on: December 11, 2017, 03:05:07 PM »
Brett I would not even begin to debate your well thought out response. Clearly you bring up some important points. Good show! However,I just came back from some holiday shopping with my wife and everything that she looked at to purchase was made elsewhere,so I'm sticking to my story...."they Won"

Regarding Trump,although I may agree with a few of his ideas there is no denying he's a creep of the highest order. Still waiting to see his tax returns and so are dozens of Philly contractors that he "stiffed" when building his Taj Mahal in AC.....and that is not fake news....Cheers,Skip

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #43 on: December 11, 2017, 04:26:25 PM »
"Regarding Trump,although I may agree with a few of his ideas there is no denying he's a creep of the highest order. Still waiting to see his tax returns and so are dozens of Philly contractors that he "stiffed" when building his Taj Mahal in AC.....and that is not fake news....Cheers,Skip"

Welcome to the party, pal. We're still waiting to see Obama's origin of birth et al. Obama: Biggest snow job on the US ever.

Searching to find my new place in this hobby!

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2017, 04:07:53 AM »
Andre, time will tell who perpetrated the "biggest snow job in history". Let's not forget one thing.....they're all liars to one degree or another.


Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2017, 11:10:47 AM »
Trump may be a creep, but he usually gets done what he wants done with out people disappearing.   I know if he runs again he still has my vote. D>K
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Offline Andre Ming

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2017, 05:49:50 PM »
Skip:

One thing upon which I'm sure we can both agree: Our government seems to be filled with the most inept, selfish, and partisan members, both sides.

I keep hoping that SOMEDAY America can come first on BOTH SIDES of our elected so-called "leaders" and we can get on with the business of rebuilding our country.
Searching to find my new place in this hobby!

Offline Skip Chernoff

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2017, 07:48:28 PM »
Doc what is so interesting about the Trump Presidency is how polarized we are. Clearly you are ok with him.I on the other hand want to throw a hammer through my TV the moment I hear him speak(tweet). He makes my blood boil......and to be very honest I'm not a guy who is into politics.There is just something about him that really gets under my skin.....Anyway,....what will be will be......Cheers,Skip

Offline Sean McEntee

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2017, 09:27:58 PM »
A bit off topic, but not by much:

Army is reviewing the return of the "Pinks and Greens" uniform that was worn at that time.  The Class A uniform was switched from the Vietnam-era green (I always hated that puke-green shirt) to the current blue Army Service Uniform around 2009.  The blue uniform, however, received a generally cold reception.  Many argued that uniform should be switched back to the pinks and greens at the time.  The "new" pinks and greens were modeled at the AAAA convention earlier this year and SMA Dailey wore them to the Army/Navy game last weekend. 

I myself, generally, am tired of buying new uniforms.  I no longer wear anything that I was issued back in basic training due to it all being outdated.  However, I would go out and get these in a heartbeat.  They look really sharp are a throwback to arguably the greatest period in our military history.  From some of the other pictures I've seen, they're almost an exact recreation of the uniform of the 40s right down to the brown leather shoes and the service cap with the omitted stiffener for the "50 mission crush" look.  The difference being the modern skill badges, awards, and insignias. 

Seriously, I would sleep in this uniform  ;D

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: Never forget December 7 1941
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2017, 09:44:03 PM »

 They look really sharp are a throwback to arguably the greatest period in our military history.  From some of the other pictures I've seen, they're almost an exact recreation of the uniform of the 40s right down to the brown leather shoes and the service cap with the omitted stiffener for the "50 mission crush" look.


 Well, it's a start.  :)
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

Wayne Willey
Albert Lea, MN U.S.A. IC C/L Aircraft Modeler, Ex AMA member

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