How do you hold your handle?

[Shug Emery]

Just curious....thumb on top or thumb off?
Straight up and down or a bit tilted or totally sideways?
Do you keep it one way the whole pattern?
I am curious on the ratio.
Seem like a subjective and personal thing.
Thanks a lot.
Shug

[Dane Martin]

i started out with my thumb on top. as i progressed and got to doing all the maneuvers, i felt it was holding me back. it was an easy habit to drop. but then i realized my handle was too big, and the thumb was making that problem also! lol

[Tim Wescott]

Slightly tilted forward, held in my curled fingers (but not with a death grip).  Thumb off except when I'm doing outside corners.  I think I tilt it a bit when inverted, but don't lay it flat -- I dunno.

[john e. holliday]

I really don't pay much attention to how I old my handle once I have several flights in for the day, but I can tell when I am not holding it vertical when doing some maneuvers.

[Paul Taylor]

Shug
Everyone has a style that works for them. I uploaded a few videos of Paul Walker making his moves.
There was also a article I think Bobby wrote about handle placement.
One of my flying buddy's holds with just the finger tips. Me I'm full grip and I do use a death grip when the wind kicks up. Some say keep your hand upright when inverted. I tilt mine some and from what I seen a lot of people do. I know a guy that flys southpaw like you the goes palm down to fly inverted and flys a good pattern.
Not sure about the thumb. We also have a guy in our club that flys with a finger pointed at the plan. He was thought that where he points his finger that is where the plane goes.

Find something that works for you. And please try and have some fun. 

[Vincent Judd]

Shug, I'm guessing that this is an offshoot of the recent video you posted of your hand during flight?  I honestly believe the comment someone made that it's kind of like a golf grip, you hold the handle whatever way feels most comfortable and gives you the best results.  Same with the placement of your left arm, I've seen many of the top guys kind of holding their left arm against their chest, I just can't get comfortable doing that. 

You have given me an idea though.  My kids got me a Mobius camera for Father's Day and to be honest, my intent was to strap it to one of my R/C planes and shoot some video while flying around our field.  I'm still planning on doing that, but in the meantime I'm going to try and replicate your hand C/L video.  I need to know how you secured the camera to your arm?  Did you mount it to some type of arm band or sleeve that you just slipped on?  I'm guessing hot melt glue and CA are out of the question along with 5min and 30 minute epoxy.  Any chance you could post a picture of how you mounted the camera on your arm?  You do have some really cool videos, i've enjoyed watching you progress with your flying.

Thanks for sharing.   

[Dwayne]

Hybrid here, thumb on top during the square 8, gripping the handle straight the rest. 
I actualy had to think about that. 

[John Park]

When I was learning to fly inverted (fifty-five years ago!) I took to holding the handle tilted to the left, in about a 'ten o'clock' position.  Somehow, 'leading' with my little finger helped me to get a better feel for the model when it was upside-down. In due course, I found I was holding the handle like that the whole time, with my arm angled in across my body by about thirty degrees, so that sharp control movements for the squares came from twisting the wrist rather than tilting the hand up or down.  There was nothing deliberate about all this: I just naturally fell into it.  
From what I've read about Bob Palmer's visit to England some time in the late '50s, I gather that he also used wrist twist for control inputs (I believe somebody took a cine film of his hand and arm when he was giving one of his demonstrations) - though presumably his injured hand left him with no alternative.

[Bill Little]

Hi Shug,

I hold my hand vertically, in the tips of my fingers, with my elbow bent fairly well.  I try to lead the model with my hand and I use my wrist for controlling the model.  I had been practicing using finger pressure for the level flight portions both upright and inverted.  Things might completely change when I can fly again! LOL!!

BIG Bear
RNMM/AMM

[Steve Helmick]

Since I was the one that made the comments on the hand/handle video, I'll comment again. When I started trying to do the full PA pattern, I found myself tilting my hand CCW (about 20 deg.) when inverted and sometimes when upright.

I had a couple of .60 sized models (one still exists!!!) that pulled pretty good. If I flew with my arm extended (using tendon strength), my shoulder would hurt the next day. If I bent my elbow and thus used my bicep strength, my shoulder didn't hurt at all. Pulling the handle up in front of your upper chest gives this, plus a better view of the lines and plane, I think. Ted and Brett say so, anyway. They also explained why we should try to have the handle vertical when flying upright, at least. The 'flat handle' when inverted may be impossible to relearn, but I'm proof that it's possible to tune out the 'minor tilt' thing. That's good enough for me. If for no other reason than your flying buddies can eyeball your handle while you're flying and tell you that you're flying with some "up" or "down" input. Fix that, and your flying generally improves dramatically.

When I was flying my SV-11 (yes, still exists), I found a comfortable neutral, and could get both upright and inverted level at reasonably the same altitude. What I couldn't do was control the takeoff...it always leaped into the air after a short roll. Pete P. and Mike H. both told me to adjust neutral, which I thought was nuts. Finally, after a month or two, I changed a line clip 1/16" to see if it would work. It did, very nicely. Wowzir!

Tho I can't recall what plane it was, I noticed that for one plane, I tended to put my thumb on the top of the handle only for outside corners, and decided that it was an indication of something wrong with the plane. I am pretty sure it was that the outsides tended to be bigger than the insides, and a perceived need to use more input on outside corners. We know that's a trim problem that needs a little work, so get after it.

Some may poo-pooh the handle, the handle position, the grip, the handle weight, and all that. But I'm here to tell you that it makes a big difference, and if you really want to improve, you need to get it right, not learn bad habits, and make notes on the information that Ted, Brett, and other "Top Gun" fliers share with you.  I am an Advanced flier that enters Expert mostly, but not all the time. I do too much "arm waving" while flying, but at least my handle is straight up & down for both upright and inverted. I think airplane trim is part of that problem, too. Trimming includes everything from the handle to the outboard wing tip, and should be a never-ending process. Just make sure you can get it back to where it usta was.     Steve

[FLOYD CARTER]

In my teeth.  That leaves my hands free for texting.

F.C.

[Mark Scarborough]

In my teeth.  That leaves my hands free for texting.

F.C.

dangit Floyd,, you beet me to the smart alec comment I was gonna make,,

[RknRusty]

Let me ask you guys this. I hold the handle backwards and launch and land palm down. Twist wrist right=UP, Twist wrist left=Down. I start out with this overhanded grip during first level flight and loops in either direction. After the 3 outsides, I tend to rotate clockwise and settle in with my fist at about 45deg, staying mostly at that comfort angle for the rest of the flight. Remember my little finger is on the side of the handle with the UP line. Thumb is by the Down line.

But I do notice myself rolling my wrist back and forth during maneuvers with multiple turns like a square 8 and to a lesser degree a Horizontal 8. When I have to make emergency turns like in the wind, I might be wildly rotating back and forth. I'm getting to where I fly a pretty fair pattern. But my most likely stunts to botch are the sq.8 and hourglass.  It leaves observers and would-be coaches confounded. And sometimes my thumb creeps to the top of the handle until I regain my composure.

Not expecting any help here, just your impression. It's how my Dad taught me to hold it with my first Cox black Stuka at twelve years old. Didn't know it was wrong for 25 years. And never did any successful loops until I was in my 50s.
 
Is that the most horrid example of handle holding yet?
Rusty

[Brett Buck]

Some may poo-pooh the handle, the handle position, the grip, the handle weight, and all that. But I'm here to tell you that it makes a big difference, and if you really want to improve, you need to get it right, not learn bad habits, and make notes on the information that Ted, Brett, and other "Top Gun" fliers share with you.

   There are plenty of previous posts in this topic, but I think holding the handle correctly, and having good posture habits, is absolutely critical. I think most consistent shape issues you see are a function is simple posture issues (like tilting your head) and can be fixed almost immediately by correcting the posture problem. Search for "posture" and you will find most of it.

  DON'T put your thumb on the top of the handle, by the way.

    I would also note that I practice what I preach:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=35949.0;attach=149252;image

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=35949.0;attach=149272;image

     Brett

[Dane Martin]

Not expecting any help here, just your impression. It's how my Dad taught me to hold it with my first Cox black Stuka at twelve years old. Didn't know it was wrong for 25 years. And never did any successful loops until I was in my 50s.
 
Is that the most horrid example of handle holding yet?
Rusty

i can't say you're doing it wrong, i thought i saw you in CLW with some wins under your belt....

[Shug Emery]

This has been terrific to read all the handle styles from you all tht posted.
Seems it all starts there. Thanks for sharing all the info and techniques and thoughts.
Me and my thumb are having a tête-à-tête about all this.
But for now I reckon my thumb will still be resting on top of that handle some.
My intent is to take heed of the posture, head and handle advice and see where I end up in time. This being my first real Summer in Stunt I am over-whelmed by the amount of nuance in control line stunt flying.
Amazing!
Shug

[Brett Buck]

As another example, the master himself, Bart Klapinski (taken while winning the 67 NATs). Note the posture, and the handle position/neutral. Hold the handle normally, stand up straight, and set your neutral correctly.

   Brett

[PJ Rowland]

Brett helped correct my posture during the Nationals - This is an aspect that some gloss over (myself included) but his advice is ROCK solid sound and steeped in proven results.

A small tilt of the head can distort your perception of the shapes. It was foreign to me until pointed out. Correct posture is critical.

[john e. holliday]

I still have some of the little helps that used be included with the kits many years ago.   Even a little booklet from America's Hobby Center.   They all show holding the control handle vertical.   Tilt back for up elevator and tilt forward for down.   Also follow the plane with the arm pointed towards the plane.   Learning inverted you lay your hand on its back if flying counter clockwise,  it will be flying clockwise when inverted.   If you can't keep up with the plane or stop moving it will kind of automatically do an outside loop and you hopefully recover up right.

[John Kelly]

    ...GREAT idea... unless of course, you're Lefty...then You've become the Clown.

[Steve Helmick]

Rusty, you're not alone with the 'bassackwards' handle deal. Mike Haverly and Jimmy Johnson both do it, and that's just here in Washington/Oregon. I'm thinking there's somebody else, but I can't put a name to the thought. Dave Gardner is right handed, but flies left handed because he started as a rat race pilot and figured it would help him whip (true enough!). Anyway, you're not alone, and don't even think about trying to change, even tho there are some serious disadvantages to it.  Steve

[RknRusty]

Rusty, you're not alone with the 'bassackwards' handle deal......Anyway, you're not alone, and don't even think about trying to change, even tho there are some serious disadvantages to it.  Steve

Yes, too much muscle memory ingrained. Right now I'm trying to sort out just what handle works and where to set my neutral. My most comfortable neutral(relaxed wrist) position is not allowing absolute full down. I guess no one's wrist moves the same distance in either direction from the relaxed position. I tried adjusting for a tad more down and almost plowed an inside loop, so I went back to the comfort zone. I need more reps before I can decide which way is best. I'd like to talk to someone who shares my oddity.
Rusty

[Shug Emery]

Shug, I'm guessing that this is an offshoot of the recent video you posted of your hand during flight?  I honestly believe the comment someone made that it's kind of like a golf grip, you hold the handle whatever way feels most comfortable and gives you the best results.  Same with the placement of your left arm, I've seen many of the top guys kind of holding their left arm against their chest, I just can't get comfortable doing that. 

You have given me an idea though.  My kids got me a Mobius camera for Father's Day and to be honest, my intent was to strap it to one of my R/C planes and shoot some video while flying around our field.  I'm still planning on doing that, but in the meantime I'm going to try and replicate your hand C/L video.  I need to know how you secured the camera to your arm?  Did you mount it to some type of arm band or sleeve that you just slipped on?  I'm guessing hot melt glue and CA are out of the question along with 5min and 30 minute epoxy.  Any chance you could post a picture of how you mounted the camera on your arm?  You do have some really cool videos, i've enjoyed watching you progress with your flying.

Thanks for sharing.   

I used the velcro strap that came with the 5 mount set I bought too. Just strapped it to my arm up near my elbow. Secured the velcro first then slipped it on my arm.
Give it a shot....fun stuff.
Shug

[Ted Fancher]

As another example, the master himself, Bart Klapinski (taken while winning the 67 NATs). Note the posture, and the handle position/neutral. Hold the handle normally, stand up straight, and set your neutral correctly.

   Brett

Ahhh.  I saw that man in that pose that day.  Never heard of him before (I'd just moved to CA in '66 and had time off to attend the nats...didn't really know any California fliers yet) but sure knew who he was afterwards.  Dick Mathis of Chizler fame [and the Coyote as well] came in second.  Never heard of him either but loved the airplane and built one of my own that flew beautifully).

Bart looked (looks still) almost "mechanical" when flying which, if you think about it is the way it should be.  The pilot is part of a well designed and well trimmed machine.  If his/her end of the lines is doing a bunch of histrionics it can only because the other end of the line "wants" to do its own "bad tricks" histrionics.  A well trimmed airplane with a good engine/motor run won't require either.  That's why Brett is so keen on proper airplane trim as well as posture and "input end" (pilot) geometry.

Ted

[Doug Moon]

As another example, the master himself, Bart Klapinski (taken while winning the 67 NATs). Note the posture, and the handle position/neutral. Hold the handle normally, stand up straight, and set your neutral correctly.

   Brett

Notice the perfect hair!    Damn I am jealous!!

And those sunglasses are cool!

[Brett Buck]

Notice the perfect hair!   

   Another view.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3361.0;attach=5633;image

   Brett

[Doug Moon]

  There are plenty of previous posts in this topic, but I think holding the handle correctly, and having good posture habits, is absolutely critical. I think most consistent shape issues you see are a function is simple posture issues (like tilting your head) and can be fixed almost immediately by correcting the posture problem. Search for "posture" and you will find most of it.

  DON'T put your thumb on the top of the handle, by the way.

    I would also note that I practice what I preach:

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=35949.0;attach=149252;image

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=35949.0;attach=149272;image

     Brett

I commented several times to my brother this year that Brett looked as though he was standing at the ATM machine waiting for his cash to pop out.  Very unassuming no drama, no moving around.  Just stand there nice and quiet and calmly tell the plane what to do.  Derek also flys this way, only he is at the bar waiting for his beer to be served.  

I really wanted to fly the Infinity. It looks very quiet everywhere it goes.  I also wanted to fly Derek's and David's and Howard's and bunch of others too...

I cannot fly like that. I tend to move some and really squat down and get into it.  But I fly the maneuver directly in front of me right down the middle, head facing straight forward upright no tilting etc.  In level flight I have seen pics where I tilt my head but in the maneuver I am usually straight up and down.  

Finishing the wing-over I usually step towards it.  Note my handle is facing palm down at this point.  When I make the turn into the wing over I turn the handle to face the plane like it when it is flying a level lap.  On the way down it becomes palm down and I make this weird goofy turn with my wrist to inverted flight but it somehow works.  Same for the upright turn to exit the maneuver but the wrist movement there is pretty standard.  
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,35949.msg366256.html#msg366256

Not sure what maneuver but facing the plane square.  I used to do alot biasing and flying off one side or the other but when I stopped doing that my shapes got way way way better.
http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php/topic,35949.msg366257.html#msg366257

[Doug Moon]

   Another view.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3361.0;attach=5633;image

   Brett

YES!!!  Bad ass hair and a kick ass sliding canopy!  What more can you ask for?

[James C. Johnson]

"Rusty, you're not alone with the 'bassackwards' handle deal. Mike Haverly and Jimmy Johnson both do it..."

Yeah, I fly with my "up" on the bottom of the handle... then when inverted I am flying the way I learned ... clockwise... I can fly either way but it feels more comfortable with my up line on the bottom... actually my inverted flying is more steady than upright...  ... my thumb "dangles" .. I don't like to hold the handle with a death grip... and it is held straight up and down with my body... I feel my "stunt skills" could take me to the expert level but in the course of a busy season I rarely burn more than 3 gallons of fuel... if I were to actually fly more often .... you you know how it goes... what amazed me last year after a 8 yr lay off was how light my 43 oz Oriental felt on the lines... and it still had perfect line tension... that alone gave me a more relaxed feeling at the handle... maybe too relaxed as I skipped the plane off the pavement on the 3 loop of the pattern at last years OR Contest just after I got my engine working perfect...

[Brett Buck]

YES!!!  Bad ass hair and a kick ass sliding canopy!  What more can you ask for?

  You may have never seen him fly, that's more amazing that the hair. His skills are absolutely uncanny, he can pick up literally ANY airplane, and fly it as good as it will fly right from the first maneuver, including total barking dogs. I have seen all the best pilots fly lots and lots of flights, and even Ted/David are in absolute awe of Bart in terms of being able to fly other peoples airplanes. Ted it also quite good at it, and David is also pretty good (I think at least partly because he is willing to go for it as much as his innate skill). Even I do pretty well, although I will not take any significant chances. But I have seen absolutely no one that can hold a candle to Bart, it's not even close.

    Brett

[Jim Thomerson]

I learned to fly clockwise, starting in 1953.  About 1955, I wanted to fly some combat so started flying counterclockwise with up line on the bottom of the handle.  I flew that way until around age 73, when I accidentally built my Herns Demon OTS to fly clockwise.  I worked with it very carefully and flew more than 100 patterns with it. I never got as comfortable as flying counterclockwise, and my scores were down about 20-30 points.  Flying clockwise, I had to pay attention and think what I was doing, whereas counterclockwise I could fly from habit.  It was very interesting to do.

[Ted Fancher]

  Another view.

http://stunthanger.com/smf/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3361.0;attach=5633;image

   Brett

What really bugs me is Bart still pretty much looks the same!   Flies the same, too, when he puts his mind to it.  If you really want to feel bad one day, do what I did in 1977 after I finished tied for third at the Nats and felt like I was pretty hot stuff.  Let Bart fly the Citation and afterward figured he woulda' beat me by 20 or 30 points the first time he touched it.

Ted

[Brett Buck]

What really bugs me is Bart still pretty much looks the same!   Flies the same, too, when he puts his mind to it.  If you really want to feel bad one day, do what I did in 1977 after I finished tied for third and felt like I was pretty hot stuff.  Let Bart fly the Citation and afterward figured he woulda' beat me by 20 or 30 points the first time he touched it.

  That's about what happened the first year I won Golden State.

    Brett

[PJ Rowland]

" If you really want to feel bad one day, do what I did in 1977 after I finished tied for third and felt like I was pretty hot stuff..... afterward figured he woulda' beat me by 20 or 30 points "

Umm... Sure.

How about my version ...

" If you really want to feel bad one day, do what I did in 2014 after I finished third in the OZ nats and felt like I was pretty hot stuff - spent a day with Brett Buck and realised I just CANT put the plane in the same spots as he can... I'm not even going to reference Dave... that was worse & DID get beaten by 20 or 30 points... !  "

[Steve Helmick]

I had Paul fly my Eagle today, and uh...nevermind!  Steve

[Leo Mehl]

I don't use my thumb at all. Just fly fingertips and I fly clockwise and now that I am over 80 it is hard for me to keep up with the airplane. I just think I am at the age where I think I like to be lazy. Some times I get real peppy and get ahead of the airplane and some days I only see a shadow that looks like an airplane. Damned eyesite getting old too. I will quite flying when I go blind and in a wheelchair . Damn body needs to quit complaining. ANYWAY I still like to fly even if I am Dangerous!

[Mike Lauerman]

Ever since I saw Lawrence Fishburne in that horrible 'Gangsta' movie, holding that .45 horizontally and expecting to hit anybody...stupid...

I had to 'emulate' that, so when we were invited to fly at the school last March, I got a funny wide-brimmed hat, some real squinty shades, and some pants 3 sizes too big...
Ringmaster taxied tail-high, and my Fishburne imitation with handle held horiz went all but unnoticed! 

Hope those guys don't think I always dress like that... or fly like that!    Some guys can tell a joke, and some can't, I guess.

[RknRusty]

Some guys can tell a joke, and some can't, I guess.

The ones that got the joke might think I'm joking every time I fly.

[Chris Belcher]

Here's something interesting about the thumb on top thing...didn't read this entire thread so if it was already covered..I apologize...
 I (tried) trimmed, adjusted, tweaked several airplanes out because of tighter outsides than insides. I get to fly with Tom Farmer (Forerunner Designer) and he saw me putting my thumb on top of the handle on outsides. He explained that that will make the response at the handle faster. Stopped putting my thumb up there and voila!!! he was right...I leave my thumb right where it lives for the insides and it slowed the outsides down to match the insides. All that pushrod shortening and trimming tricks and like our experts all say...LOTS of the trimming is done at the handle. Those guys are right so much