Need some suggestions

[Mike Griffin]

 I have generally built 35 sized ships and up however I am going to downsize some and would appreciate some suggestions for a .19 size model.  Since I have not built that small in the past, I am open to suggestions.

Thank you,
Mike

[Mike Griffin]

Shark 402, the small Nobler, Ring Master Junior..

Thank you Ty.  I will take those into consideration.

Mike

[Steve Helmick]

Shark 402 and Veco Warrior. The Jr. Nobler and Jr. Ringmaster are pretty mediocre by comparison.  Steve

PS: I'm not 100% certain there wasn't more than one Warrior, but I'm not aware of any. Mini-Chief looking thing, if light and well powered would be awesome. The .21 FP, .25LA, Veco .19bb, etc. 

[Dave_Trible]

I had an awesome Junior Nobler when I was young with a Greenhead Torp .23.  It flew better than my big Nobler.  Another idea is to take your plans for any good .35 sized airplane to Fed Ex.  Hit the 'reduce' button on the copy to end up in the 40-46" wing span range.  The Peacemaker by Aldrich would be another good choice.  A lightly built Dolphin perhaps on 52' lines is another decent option.

Dave

[Mike Griffin]

Thanks, guys, for all the suggestions, please keep em coming cause if will be after the first of the year before I start something.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

One design that has not been mentioned is the Lancer.  Anyone ever built one and what results did you get?  I think Berkley put it out.  Also, SIG is sold out on the Akromaster, they are sold out of most eeverything.


Mike

[Dan Berry]

A Jr Flite Streak would be my first choice if I was gonna build a kit.
If I wasn't after a kit I would look at  a Jr Flite streak scaled up 5%.

My brother had a Goldberg Shoestring with a McCoy 19 that flew just fine.

[Brett Buck]

I have generally built 35 sized ships and up however I am going to downsize some and would appreciate some suggestions for a .19 size model.  Since I have not built that small in the past, I am open to suggestions.

   I built *many* ".15-.19"-sized airplanes back in the day. My favorites were Shark 15s - easy to build, fly very well on a very weak/light 15 (OS MAX-III, OS 20S, etc). I would suggest something like a Hornet .09 today, any modern 15 is probably greatly excessive, and certainly not a 20FP/25LA.

    Brett

[Ken Culbertson]

I had an awesome Junior Nobler when I was young with a Greenhead Torp .23.  It flew better than my big Nobler.  Another idea is to take your plans for any good .35 sized airplane to Fed Ex.  Hit the 'reduce' button on the copy to end up in the 40-46" wing span range.  The Peacemaker by Aldrich would be another good choice.  A lightly built Dolphin perhaps on 52' lines is another decent option.

Dave

I think the difference between yours and mine was power.  My Jr. Nobler had a Fox 15 and it didn't fly well at all.  With a decent .19 maybe.  I am on board for the Jr. Flight Streak.  My real option if I were doing this would be to do the reduction of something "modern" and build from plans.  I rarely build kits.

Ken 

[Steve Berry]

I think the difference between yours and mine was power.  My Jr. Nobler had a Fox 15 and it didn't fly well at all.  With a decent .19 maybe.  I am on board for the Jr. Flight Streak.  My real option if I were doing this would be to do the reduction of something "modern" and build from plans.  I rarely build kits.

Ken

Along those lines...how about a scaled down Patternmaster or Imitation? As I recall, you already have the CAD files for the Imitation, right? Just scale it to about a 40-45" span and you should be fine.

Steve

[Brett Buck]

I think the difference between yours and mine was power.  My Jr. Nobler had a Fox 15 and it didn't fly well at all.  With a decent .19 maybe.  I am on board for the Jr. Flight Streak.  My real option if I were doing this would be to do the reduction of something "modern" and build from plans.  I rarely build kits.

    My Jr. Nobler flew just OK with a OS-25-S, but it also didn't last long enough to make a fair assessment (and I wasn't qualified to have much of an opinion at the time  - *45 years ago*!). As always, whatever combination of errors I had built in determined the success/failure, and I assure you there were a lot of errors.

    My Jr. Flite Streak flew better, and was the last "junior" model I built, I finally broke the crank on the OS-25S running it on a 7-6 and as fast as it would go. I did an outside loop from high level flight and just ticked the prop on the pavement and the crank broke on the next flight.

   I also remind everyone - these airplanes are *really small*, 270ish square inches, which is a very large 1/2A. Veco 19, OS-20FP, OS-15FP, probably the OS-15LA, are completely nuts unless you are looking for combat speeds. Forget the Rossi, Tai-pan, Cox Conquest, etc, or any of the hot FAI FF engines from the good old days, same problem. A local build an airplane for some Eastern Block F1J engine (an .06, I think) and it was something like 350 square inches - much larger.

    Figure a MAX-I to III (which is what Lew McFarland had on his Shark 15), Cox Sportsman or Medallion 15, Enya 15, and a Fox 15X (not the XX) would be plenty if it wasn't illegal by rules of The Hurl. As mentioned, I would think a modern 10 (like the Hornet 09) is about right, and as light as you can manage to build it.

     Brett

   

[wwwarbird]

 Another Shark 402 vote, great little airplane. 

 Here's mine...

 https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/shark-402-project/msg149953/#msg149953

 https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/shark-402-progress/msg150738/#msg150738

 https://stunthanger.com/smf/open-forum/shark-402-is-rtf/msg151889/#msg151889

[Dan McEntee]

    My Jr. Nobler flew just OK with a OS-25-S, but it also didn't last long enough to make a fair assessment (and I wasn't qualified to have much of an opinion at the time  - *45 years ago*!). As always, whatever combination of errors I had built in determined the success/failure, and I assure you there were a lot of errors.

    My Jr. Flite Streak flew better, and was the last "junior" model I built, I finally broke the crank on the OS-25S running it on a 7-6 and as fast as it would go. I did an outside loop from high level flight and just ticked the prop on the pavement and the crank broke on the next flight.

   I also remind everyone - these airplanes are *really small*, 270ish square inches, which is a very large 1/2A. Veco 19, OS-20FP, OS-15FP, probably the OS-15LA, are completely nuts unless you are looking for combat speeds. Forget the Rossi, Tai-pan, Cox Conquest, etc, or any of the hot FAI FF engines from the good old days, same problem. A local build an airplane for some Eastern Block F1J engine (an .06, I think) and it was something like 350 square inches - much larger.

    Figure a MAX-I to III (which is what Lew McFarland had on his Shark 15), Cox Sportsman or Medallion 15, Enya 15, and a Fox 15X (not the XX) would be plenty if it wasn't illegal by rules of The Hurl. As mentioned, I would think a modern 10 (like the Hornet 09) is about right, and as light as you can manage to build it.

     Brett

   

    I have just gone through a Jr. Flite Streak, copying parts from one to fill in what was missing in another, and it's only 230 square inches area. I was thinking of using a 1/4" thick fuselage and a Norvel .061 for some short line fun!!

  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Dave Hull]

Mike,
I have a "gifted-to-me" Jr. Flite Streak that I put a McCoy .19 on. The problem with an outboard tank is that there is not enough room for enough fuel. It runs beautifully for a couple of minutes using a standard vent medium wedge 1-1/8 oz tank and a 9" BY&O prop. But just about the time you have knocked off the dust and are really having fun, it is out of fuel. There is room for the slightly longer BH-472 tank and I'm sure that it would perform just as well, but the increased amount of fuel is negligible.

For reference, there is no tail weight on this plane. The cylinder centerline is about 2-7/8" ahead of the LE. I ran it without a muffler or spinner, and with the wood prop, so there is no extra weight forward. There is an extra 5 lbs or so in the "coat hanger" leadouts and goofy wingtip wheel unit, ancient silk and layered on dope. Actually, it is 19 oz. ready for fuel, warts and all.

If I recall correctly, I flew this on .012"x52' lines with no issues.

I have tried a deeper tank and the engine run quality goes away. And never came up with an inboard tank that easily fit. So it hangs on the wall. When picking your project, be sure to factor in the fuel quantity needed and the likely fuel tank size for the engine you are considering.

Last year, I refurbished a Magician .15 with all new covering. The original K&B epoxy paint on the fuselage was still in very good shape. But, it was a "nose wagger." The little Enya .15 shook so bad it wouldn't hold a setting. An old steelfin OS wasn't any good. The OS .15LA was only slightly better. An OS .10 might be the ticket, but I don't have one of those. An electric motor might be best, but (a) the likely size of the components retrofit to the thing didn't look appealing; and (b) I am not an electric kind of guy. Still, if you were to build a Magician from the get-go, you might be happy with the stiffness of the front end?

I have in work a 42-1/2" span, elliptical wing, full fuselage I-beamer that I call the SongBird. It is planned around a Veco .19 with stock muffler--and a bigger tank! Hopefully, I can get some other projects out of the way and get back on this one some day soon.

Have fun picking out your project!

Dave

[MikeyPratt]

Mike,
Lots of good suggestions here, the Veco 19 BB is a real power house that can fly a lot of models out there, it has plenty of power even with a tongue muffler.  Use a 10 X 4 and set in a wet 2-2 setting andyou won’t believe how nice it runs. 

Models just for fun I would consider:

Veco Warrior
Super Clown
Veco Tom Tom
Lancer (old combat model).
Hummingbird

Still way more that are out there,

Later,
Mikey

[Kermit Payne]

Mike,

If you want to build from plans how about a Sirocco?  Published in the September 1978 issue of Model Airplane News and designed by Don Hollfelder.  Wingspan 48-1/2”, about 424 sq in, and powered by a Veco .19.  A nice-looking airplane, somewhat of an old Goodyear-racer look (cheek cowls), with a reasonable airfoil and side-mounted engine.  The plans even show a tank pattern!

[C.T. Schaefer]

I have built both the 402 and a Brodak Peacemaker.  Both fly very well  with .25 motors on .012x58.

[Steve Dwyer]

Mike,

I have a Continental Demco Debolt kit I came across some years back I plan to build when smaller becomes better. I recall seeing the 50s design finished model in the early 60s and was always impressed with its style for a .19 size model.  The guy finished it maroon and gold and with the wheel skirts it was a beauty. Here's a link to one that was for sale. I have plans you you need a set. 

 https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/continental-demco-vintage-model-1876648420

Steve

[Mike Griffin]

I want to thank all of you for your input and there are some great suggestions here.  It will probably be after the 1st of the year before I build anything but will let you know what I decide on.  Thank you all again.

Mike

[Dennis Toth]

Mike,
The Veco/Dumas Papoose or Squaw are great little ships for a 19 ish and Classic legal. They have coupled flap/elevator and fly on 0.012 x 55'. The little T-Bird is also a good one.

Best,    DennisT

[Brent Williams]

How about adding .01 of displacement and select an OS 20FP/2030 muffler/APC9x4?  The best part of this is that you don't have to use a slag .19. 

A 90% Primary Force would be cool.

[Joe Ed Pederson]

My suggestion is the "Avia 87" from the October 1992 issue of Model Aviation starting at page 78.  The Plans number is 723.

It's a profile model designed for the Cox Medallion .15, the older OS Max and older Enya .15s, and Fox .15s.   It has flaps.  The airfoil is 1 5/8" thick. Wing span is 38 1/4", and from the plans I calculate the wing area to be 330 square inches and the stab/elevator is 18% of wing area.  The spar is 1/4" x 1" and is centered inside the wing.  The wing tapers at the leading edge and the trailing edge of the flaps.  There is no sheeting on the wing except at the center section.  The ribs are 3/32".

The nose is long enough to mount a fuel tank at least 4 inches long.  The flap hinge to elevator hinge distance is 13 1/2"

The opening paragraph of the article reads: "Already a two-time winner in Poland's F2B Junior Nationals, the simple, .15 powered design is considered the best of its kind by Polish CL Aerobatics fliers."

I wish I had been able to copy a picture of the model.   

I'm planning on building this model for my Enya .15 Mk III some day and that's why I bought the plans.

Joe Ed Pederson

[Steve Thomas]

Keilkraft Spectre. Looks great, flies great. (About 360 sq.in, from memory.)

[phil c]

How about adding .01 of displacement and select an OS 20FP/2030 muffler/APC9x4?  The best part of this is that you don't have to use a slag .19. 

A 90% Primary Force would be cool.

Hi Brent, you've always had good ideas.  It's good to see other flyers have gotten better ideas for planes and especially wing designs.

I've found, from 1970 to now that the best flying planes used a wing with a 15% ish airfoil, about 425 squares,  and a 48in span.  It's worked on numerous different sizes and weights from 12.4x1.1.67 x 6.125x0.90,  about 441 sq. in.'s  All the way from a 19 to a 40 "Sport" engine such as the O.S. Fp20 to the FP 40. On a scaled up 500 sq.in wing that still flew great but needed some real power such as the Nelson 36 (and the Fox Combat 35's were all pretty good.)

I'm still working hard at strength, brain power, reflexes, and Sleep!.

Have a great Christmas!

Phil Cartier

[Leonard Bourel]

Shark 402 is by far the best small stunter I have ever flown

[Dennis Adamisin]

Hi Mike
You have received a lot of great suggestions here.  Surprised someone has not mentioned John Miller's "Miss Elle",  42" span 380 squares,  full fuselage, and flaps for 15-25 engines.  It looks like a scale model of a stunt plane!  Modern airfoil, moments and aerodynamics.  Brodak kit, check their website.  Hopefully John Miller will see this and check in with a little more info.

Oh and some guy designed an electric conversion for it too! 

[Mike Griffin]

Hi Mike
You have received a lot of great suggestions here.  Surprised someone has not mentioned John Miller's "Miss Elle",  42" span 380 squares,  full fuselage, and flaps for 15-25 engines.  It looks like a scale model of a stunt plane!  Modern airfoil, moments and aerodynamics.  Brodak kit, check their website.  Hopefully John Miller will see this and check in with a little more info.

Oh and some guy designed an electric conversion for it too! 

Thank you Denny, I actually did look at that one on Brodak's website and for the lack of a better word, I thought it was a cute little plane.  I really liked the looks of it.  I may just buy that one and give it a try.  Thank you again,

Mike

[Martin Quartim]

Bob Kruger, designed the “Ground Fault”, inspired by  Igor Burger Tiny for a .15

I have recommended this design for several guys, and they love it with the Enya 19!  It has Igor´s aerodynamics, so it does fly very well indeed.  Possibly the best model for a .20 ~.25!

435sq wing with 49" span, that you can scale to whatever you think it is best for your engine.

Igor told me once to make the Tiny to use the Ground Fault Plan and just make the wing 39”span

Here is Igor Article for the Tiny for a .15 engine. http://www.netax.sk/hexoft/stunt/thetiny.htm

If you look you can find Ground Fault plans on Outerzone or other website.
The other model is the Leona 20 and Leona 20 Second Edition, a full body Japanese design from the late 60s or 70s, but with a good airfoil and 60/40 Estab/Elev  Flys very well also.

[Trostle]

Lots of good suggestions here

Models just for fun I would consider:

Veco Warrior
Super Clown
Veco Tom Tom
Lancer (old combat model).
Hummingbird

Still way more that are out there,

Later,
Mikey

Has anyone built  a Lancer with a landing gear.  It its day, it was a top combat model.  Seems kind of a waste to put an I-Beam wing on it, but that was the way it was done in Detroit.  Seems like it would be a good airplane with a good .25  (as in OS .25FP).  It is tempting.  I have a Berkeley kit to copy the fuselage, ribs and tail.

Keith

[Martin Quartim]

I found "Ground Fault" plans at www.hippocketaeronautics.com/

[Mike Griffin]

Has anyone built  a Lancer with a landing gear.  It its day, it was a top combat model.  Seems kind of a waste to put an I-Beam wing on it, but that was the way it was done in Detroit.  Seems like it would be a good airplane with a good .25  (as in OS .25FP).  It is tempting.  I have a Berkeley kit to copy the fuselage, ribs and tail.

Keith

Hi Keith.  I have a Lancer in my closet.  I think I bought it from SIG a while back. I thought about putting a Veco 19 on it if I ever get it built.  I think I am going to build the Williamson Ringmaster first.

Mike

[Mike Griffin]

I want to thank everyone for their great suggestions in this thread.  I think the first model I am going to build for the Veco 19, will be the Williamson Ringmaster.