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Author Topic: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?  (Read 2788 times)

Offline Steve Berry

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OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« on: November 30, 2020, 07:14:53 AM »
Like the title says, has anyone built a stunt version of the OV-10 Bronco? I know that Pat King has a sport scale version available, but I'm just wondering about a possible electric stunt version. Perhaps based off the wing of a Twister or something.  I'm thinking the only real difficulty would be the high tail and control linkage. Thoughts?

Steve

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2020, 09:18:57 AM »
Hi Steve:

I've been wanting to build an OV-10 Bronco as a competitive stunt model for about 55 years (since I first saw them fly when I was in the Army in 1968. I'll never forget the look or the amazing sound they made.

Now, with the advent of practical and powerful electric systems the possibility is closer than ever. I'd want mine to be larger than a Twister and have retracts for sure, but one made at the size you mentioned and with fixed get would be enjoyable as well.

Yeah, the high tail is what worries me too... I had a friend who built a jet styled stunter with a tail that was mounted higher than normal, and it wouldn't turn outsides well at all. He just scrapped that ship. I'll wager that there is an area that will blanket the elevator's effectiveness, but I'll also wager that there is a spot above that area at which the stab and elevator would not be blanketed. The simple solution is to make a simple test bed ship to find out if that is the case or not.

Another problem would be the linkage to the high stab/elev mounting. There are other problems as well, such as the huge canopy. It just wouldn't look right as a painted-on thing; it has to be transparent and have cockpit detailing (at least I think so...). 

It would be a very complex project, but a rewarding one if it pans out!

By the way, have you seen the Canadian update of the Bronco? It is a turboprop version and it is super sleek. It is called the Icarus tav-1. Here's a link to a photo of it:

https://www.airway1.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/icarus-tav-1.jpg

Later - Bob Hunt

Offline Steve Berry

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2020, 10:13:30 AM »
By the way, have you seen the Canadian update of the Bronco? It is a turboprop version and it is super sleek. It is called the Icarus tav-1. Here's a link to a photo of it:

https://www.airway1.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/icarus-tav-1.jpg

Later - Bob Hunt

Now that is a, dare I say it, sexy airplane! I like the looks of it!

Offline Trostle

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2020, 11:29:19 AM »

(Clip)

Yeah, the high tail is what worries me too... I had a friend who built a jet styled stunter with a tail that was mounted higher than normal, and it wouldn't turn outsides well at all. He just scrapped that ship. I'll wager that there is an area that will blanket the elevator's effectiveness, but I'll also wager that there is a spot above that area at which the stab and elevator would not be blanketed. The simple solution is to make a simple test bed ship to find out if that is the case or not.

It would be a very complex project, but a rewarding one if it pans out!

(Clip)

Later - Bob Hunt

Hi Bob,

You mentioned the high position of the horizontal tail.  There have been several comments recently about this subject.  (See elsewhere on this forum currently on subjects for twins.)  I think one of the extremes for a subject for a high tail is the F-104.  I think there have been several who have made an F-104 for stunt.  Maybe one of the most notable is one done by Tom McClain.  I do not know if the one he did was original or was designed by someone else.  I am not sure, but Joe Adamusko might have done one or maybe I am confusing that with the U-2 that he did.  I do know that the F-104 that McClain had could do a credible pattern.  Maybe if McClain looks at this forum, he could offer his experience.

I have a semi-scale of the Little Mike Goodyear racer that has the horizontal tail mounted half way up on the vertical tail.  I did not feel that it flew insides or outsides any different.  Placed 10th at the '72 Nats.  (That was with the one and only RAF .40 rear exhaust engine.)

Keith

Offline Gerald Arana

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2020, 11:57:38 AM »
Now that is a, dare I say it, sexy airplane! I like the looks of it!

I'll second that!

Jerry

Offline mccoy40

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2020, 12:09:05 PM »
I've thought of doing one. Electric would be the way to go - I would think a Twister wing would be a good choice to start.

Definitely add all the appendages and drop tanks etc. Planes like that look naked  without all there equipment.

 H^^

Offline dave siegler

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2020, 12:20:02 PM »
Model airplane news had a profile for small engines, 09 in the 70's sometime.

its on one of the plan sites. 

Dave Siegler
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Offline AirClassix

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2020, 02:25:44 PM »
Dennis Leonhardi
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Offline Steve Berry

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2020, 02:30:53 PM »
Ok, after doing some digging and some CAD work, here's what I have so far as a working idea. More or less based off a Twister wing, 50" span (48" tip rib to tip rib), 10" chord, 1/4" profile center fuselage, 3/8" profile tailbooms, 1/4" stab & elevator (24" span, elevator 40% of area). I added some flaps to it (1.75" root, 1.25" tip). I figure electric equivalent to a couple of .15-.19 glow engines should be sufficient, but of course that's up for debate. Again, just something I threw together.

Offline Trostle

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2020, 03:07:28 PM »
Why not crunch the Twin Pathfinder numbers into the Bronco configuration?  I flew Gordan's Twin Pathfinder with with its two .15's.  One of the nicest flying stunt ships I have flown.  After one flight, was able to do a good (at least for me) pattern with it.  Placed in a profile contest in Southern California a few years ago.

Keith

Offline Steve Berry

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2020, 03:10:09 PM »
Why not crunch the Twin Pathfinder numbers into the Bronco configuration? 

Mostly because I don't have the numbers or CAD for it. If I did, that would probably be a better starting point.

Offline Bob Hunt

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2020, 04:30:07 PM »
Hi Bob,

You mentioned the high position of the horizontal tail.  There have been several comments recently about this subject.  (See elsewhere on this forum currently on subjects for twins.)  I think one of the extremes for a subject for a high tail is the F-104.  I think there have been several who have made an F-104 for stunt.  Maybe one of the most notable is one done by Tom McClain.  I do not know if the one he did was original or was designed by someone else.  I am not sure, but Joe Adamusko might have done one or maybe I am confusing that with the U-2 that he did.  I do know that the F-104 that McClain had could do a credible pattern.  Maybe if McClain looks at this forum, he could offer his experience.

I have a semi-scale of the Little Mike Goodyear racer that has the horizontal tail mounted half way up on the vertical tail.  I did not feel that it flew insides or outsides any different.  Placed 10th at the '72 Nats.  (That was with the one and only RAF .40 rear exhaust engine.)

Keith

I remember flying that ship at a contest in 1974 (Salisbury, Maryland...?). I think we traded flights that day and you flew my Genesis 46 Mk I. I do remember that the Little Mike flew very well.
Later - Bob

Offline Trostle

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2020, 06:08:50 PM »
I remember flying that ship at a contest in 1974 (Salisbury, Maryland...?). I think we traded flights that day and you flew my Genesis 46 Mk I. I do remember that the Little Mike flew very well.
Later - Bob

I liked the Genesis better. 

Keith

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2020, 09:14:58 PM »
 I've considered doing an OV-10 Stunter many times over the years, even figured the dimensions/moments and drew up a rough plan once.

 A Twister wing (modified for a sheeted L/E) and a couple LA.15's would be a good start.  y1
« Last Edit: December 01, 2020, 09:06:46 PM by wwwarbird »
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2020, 02:09:29 AM »
Placed in a profile contest in Southern California a few years ago.

And it won Profile stunt at the last NW Regionals.
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Offline Scott Richlen

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2020, 10:32:55 AM »
Quote
I think there have been several who have made an F-104 for stunt.  Maybe one of the most notable is one done by Tom McClain.  I do not know if the one he did was original or was designed by someone else.

Tom designed, built, and flew the F-104 when he was flying with us in the NVCL.  If we can get him to post something here on it you'll want to read it as it was a pretty unique airplane.  I'll send him an email.

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2020, 07:22:42 PM »
I don't have a CAD program, and yet I've drawn dozens of my plans using old fashioned paper and pencil.  Try it, you might like it!

I think any OV-10 stunter should have built-up booms.  Save the profile concept for a Ringmaster.
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Offline L0U CRANE

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2020, 03:29:30 PM »
Jack Sheeks  found a way around the extreme high stab/elevator "problem" in one of his last published designs, the Knight. Its looks were inspired by Rivets, Bill Falks' famous racer, which DID have a very sharp downward aft fuse top line AND a T-tail.

The side view of the Knight's wing and tail chord lines shows Jack's model is fairly close to standard. It did look like it had a high T-tail back there, though. The fuse side view just gave that impression.

The most unusual thing was the pushrod to the elevator. It was bent upward inside the fin  with a bend back level at elevator horn holes height.  He added a brace wire from the lower section, forward of the bend to aft of it at the upper end at elevator horn hole height. Fairleads kept the forward pushrod length from flexing. Never flew one and never saw one fly, but I don't believe Jack would publish a plane with a severe problem.

I also saw a "F-104" ukie at Tucson long ago. Took a while to recognize it as such. The wing was HUGE compared to the real bird's. Compared to the fuse, it was scaled many times larger. Way back, time of the (X-3 )? Stiletto full-size experimental jet, or of early news of the '104,  I joked that they looked like the landing gear fairings were airfoiled for takeoff and retracted in flight...
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Offline frank williams

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2020, 04:06:21 PM »
Would vertical cg be a problem with the OV-10 stunter?

We had them at NKP in northern Thailand.  They would come in from Laos and turn downwind leg right over our hooches.  They would roll up 90 degrees and pull a hard pylon turn.  The engines seemed to over rev in the turn.  Exhaust was downward toward the ground and boy they were loud. 

I too have thought about making a stunter out of one.

Offline Steve Berry

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2021, 12:18:41 PM »
Update:

With the help of others, I've been working on plans for a true OV-10 Bronco Stunter. Two versions, built-up wing (based on the Pathfinder Twin XL) and a foam wing (construction based on Bob Hunt's "lost sheeting" method).  I've mostly done it in 2D AutoCAD, but I just recently threw together a 3D version in Autodesk Inventor. Here is a preliminary render of it.

Power will be a pair of Cobra 2814/16 motors (roughly equivalent to a couple of .25FPs). Approximately 647 sq in of wing.

Offline Howard Rush

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2021, 12:40:37 PM »
Pathfinder 2 is in an outbuilding at JCT Manor.  I’ll measure it after I get the new F2B dog done.
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Offline Howard Rush

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2021, 12:56:35 PM »
The most unusual thing was the pushrod to the elevator. It was bent upward inside the fin  with a bend back level at elevator horn holes height.  He added a brace wire from the lower section, forward of the bend to aft of it at the upper end at elevator horn hole height. Fairleads kept the forward pushrod length from flexing. Never flew one and never saw one fly, but I don't believe Jack would publish a plane with a severe problem.

Cool.  I would have figured a bunch of little bellcranks.  It would be fun to come up with a light, stiff one-piece pushrod—easier nowadays than in Jack’s.
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Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2021, 03:12:34 PM »
Would vertical cg be a problem with the OV-10 stunter?

We had them at NKP in northern Thailand.  They would come in from Laos and turn downwind leg right over our hooches.  They would roll up 90 degrees and pull a hard pylon turn.  The engines seemed to over rev in the turn.  Exhaust was downward toward the ground and boy they were loud. 

I too have thought about making a stunter out of one.
Frank - when were you at NKP?  My brother was an intel officer stationed there in, I think '69 or '70.  He flew quite a few OV-10 missions as observer.  I was down at Korat same time.  Our mother aged 5 years during that tour.

Ken
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2021, 06:32:44 PM »
 I just now scribbled out a couple thoughts on the controls to the rear, (the bottom drawing probably has the better chance of working smoothly). Properly set up a pair of opposing 90 degree bellcranks would probably do the job nicely. I'd use the small carbon tube and 4-40 ball links for the linkage. A test mock up would be real easy to create on a scrap sheet of plywood or similar. It was a different geometry requirement but a similar setup performs flawlessly on my old PBY.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 06:53:47 PM by wwwarbird »
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Offline Steve Berry

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2021, 06:59:04 PM »
Hmm. Thanks for the idea. I have a feeling custom hardware may be needed for this one. Should be a fun project. Only problem is that in it's current state, it comes out grossly tail heavy. I'm going to keep refining the design and try building a prototype (after finishing the 3 or 4 started but not finished planes already on my building table).

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Offline John Miller

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2021, 07:43:24 PM »
Looking nice Steve. I am not surprised that it's a bit tail heavy. You could extend the engines forward some without it looking strange. Mounting the battery forward so it can be moved fore and aft can also be done. Think a pod around the battery, similar to that shown on Randy's Ring Master build currently on the building forum.


Looking forward to watching your progress.

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Offline frank williams

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2021, 08:17:26 PM »
Ken
I was at NKP in '68-"69 with a group called Task Force Alpha.  This was part of the "electronic fence" to monitor traffic down the HoChiMihn trail in Laos.  We had some IBM 360-65's to crunch data that came back from the EC-121's that flew out of Korat.  Went down to Korat for a couple of night flights on the 121's (old Lockheed Constellations borrowed from the Navy).  A long time ago, in a land far far away.
Frank

Offline wwwarbird

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2021, 08:51:22 PM »
I have a feeling custom hardware may be needed for this one.

 Du-Bro sells most of the "custom hardware" you'll need. ;D
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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2021, 09:15:31 PM »
Only problem is that in it's current state, it comes out grossly tail heavy.

 Here's a fix for that, another tidbit from my old PBY. From under the nose of the built-up fuse I drilled and embedded a 1/2" aluminum tube that runs up to just inside the top. Removing the two screws holding the cosmetic cover reveals the hollow tube where trim weight can be added, in my case a section of lead rod. Any unused space can then be backed up with some wadded paper towel or whatever, just so things can't rattle or vibrate.
 With the profile outline of the Bronco being what it is, I'd consider coming straight in from the front with this setup. This would allow making the tube plenty long enough to accept sufficient weight.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 09:39:43 PM by wwwarbird »
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Offline Trostle

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2021, 01:19:02 AM »
I just now scribbled out a couple thoughts on the controls to the rear, (the bottom drawing probably has the better chance of working smoothly). Properly set up a pair of opposing 90 degree bellcranks would probably do the job nicely.

Why not just use one extra bellcrank in the rear?  Hook up that second pushrod to an offset horn on the elevators.  Just have to work out the angles on the rear transfer bellcrank and the pushrod and the elevator horn.  Get the same action on the elevators without the second rear bellcrank. 

Another alternative would be to use one of the flexible pushrod systems.  Like the "Gold-N-Rod" or "Gold-N-Cable" or similar systems.  I have not seen these on a serious stunt ship, but they do work for large and small scale applications.  Eliminates the the tricky multiple bellcranks approach.  These will probably still need a special built offset elevator control horn.  These things have very little internal drag and properly installed, should not resullt in any excessive "looseness".

Keith

Online Ken Culbertson

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #30 on: January 29, 2021, 10:02:52 AM »
Why not just use one extra bellcrank in the rear?  Hook up that second pushrod to an offset horn on the elevators.  Just have to work out the angles on the rear transfer bellcrank and the pushrod and the elevator horn.  Get the same action on the elevators without the second rear bellcrank. 

Another alternative would be to use one of the flexible pushrod systems.  Like the "Gold-N-Rod" or "Gold-N-Cable" or similar systems.  I have not seen these on a serious stunt ship, but they do work for large and small scale applications.  Eliminates the the tricky multiple bellcranks approach.  These will probably still need a special built offset elevator control horn.  These things have very little internal drag and properly installed, should not resullt in any excessive "looseness".

Keith
I have used both methods on high tail sailplanes and the "gold-N-Rod" on a stunt ship once a long time ago.  Maybe the rods are better now but the cable did not give equal control pressure on up vs down (pull vs push).   Perhaps a double would.   Which ever method you use, you will need them in both fuselages driven by the flaps.  The elevator horn should look like the one for a logarithmic.  Parallel to the elevator.   

One of my favorite planes, hope it works out.

Ken

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Offline wwwarbird

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #31 on: January 29, 2021, 06:44:13 PM »
Why not just use one extra bellcrank in the rear?  Hook up that second pushrod to an offset horn on the elevators.  Just have to work out the angles on the rear transfer bellcrank and the pushrod and the elevator horn.  Get the same action on the elevators without the second rear bellcrank. 

 That would be a good option too. My quick scribble note was just the first thing that came to mind, a mind far less experienced than Keith's.
Narrowly averting disaster since 1964! 

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Offline Steve Berry

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #32 on: January 29, 2021, 07:05:06 PM »
What I've designed in, so far, is a control horn on each end of the elevator, next to the rudder. In the flaps i have 2 control horn wires with the horns offset and placed so that they are directly in line with the elevator horns. They are simply joined with a rigid pushrod (3/32" music wire, for now). Keep in mind, I haven't cut one piece of foam, balsa, or wire for this, yet. Am still in design phase.

This way just seems the most practical, and easiest. Everything on this is profile, so I don't mind having exposed controls. The built up fuse version is the tricky one. Right now, I'm just trying to see if a modern stunter can be wrangled out of the Bronco - that is, can this Bronco be tamed for precision aerobatics?

Steve

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Online Tom McClain

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2021, 08:39:04 AM »
Tom designed, built, and flew the F-104 when he was flying with us in the NVCL.  If we can get him to post something here on it you'll want to read it as it was a pretty unique airplane.  I'll send him an email.

Yes I did an F104 starfighter based on Darrell Grenamyers RB104. The airfoil and size and moments came from the GIeseke Nobler.  It was powered by a big art 0S 40 FP and I built two horizontal tails for it.  One tail was full flying and the other was conventional.   Both tails worked well but I stayed with the conventional due to the full flying tail experienced flutter.  It flew pretty well and I competed it at the Bodak and flew it in Tucson. Bart Kaplinsky tried it.

It is now at the Glen Martin aviation Museum at Martin state airport along with five other airplanes that I donated to the museum.  Lockheed Martin is the sponsor of the museum along with united parcel service and they along with the museum curator are very happy to get my aircraft.  I donated two Martin B 26 marauders, a Blanca Flash, a Westland Wyvern, and a F-4U-1A corsair.

Got a huge write off on my taxes.

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Offline Curare

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2021, 09:29:01 PM »
Yes I did an F104 starfighter based on Darrell Grenamyers RB104. The airfoil and size and moments came from the GIeseke Nobler.  It was powered by a big art 0S 40 FP and I built two horizontal tails for it.  One tail was full flying and the other was conventional.   Both tails worked well but I stayed with the conventional due to the full flying tail experienced flutter.  It flew pretty well and I competed it at the Bodak and flew it in Tucson. Bart Kaplinsky tried it.

It is now at the Glen Martin aviation Museum at Martin state airport along with five other airplanes that I donated to the museum.  Lockheed Martin is the sponsor of the museum along with united parcel service and they along with the museum curator are very happy to get my aircraft.  I donated two Martin B 26 marauders, a Blanca Flash, a Westland Wyvern, and a F-4U-1A corsair.

Got a huge write off on my taxes.

Tom McClain



Tom, that's some interesting hardware you've got working the flaps, do you have any more detail? Can you elaborate on what you were trying to achieve?
Greg Kowalski
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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2021, 10:01:35 PM »
Tom, that's some interesting hardware you've got working the flaps, do you have any more detail? Can you elaborate on what you were trying to achieve?

My controls were Rube Goldberg as I didn’t know about Lucky boxes for bent wings and horizontal tails.  I made sure my controls are linear.  If I did it again I would use Lucky boxes.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2021, 05:56:52 AM by Tom McClain »
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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2021, 11:27:01 PM »
Man, that Wyvern is NICE!

Do you have more details?

Pretty cool to have your work displayed in a museum, for sure.

Dave

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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2021, 11:44:29 PM »
Man, that Wyvern is NICE!

Do you have more details?

Pretty cool to have your work displayed in a museum, for sure.

Dave

Thats the first time I've heard 'Wyvern' and 'Nice' in the same sentence. Great subject for scale but I doubt anyone would say it's a nice looking airframe!
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Re: OV-10 Bronco Stunter - Has anyone done it?
« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2021, 06:03:10 AM »
Man, that Wyvern is NICE!

Do you have more details?

Pretty cool to have your work displayed in a museum, for sure.

Dave

I based the Wyvern on one done in the UK in the 70s by Brian Dyke. He had done a ST 60 powered JU-87 Stuka and did a  Wyvern but only had plans for the Stuka. He gave me the pertinent info on the Wyvern and how he based it on the Stuka, so I reversed engineered it.

Min flew ok with a Ro-Jett RE61, but it was not competitive. So off to the museum it went.
Tom McClain


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