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Author Topic: ice-o-lated  (Read 1402 times)

Offline bob whitney

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ice-o-lated
« on: December 30, 2023, 07:20:11 PM »
anyone at the ice  o  lated contest up for flying a couple of slug Perkys??
rad racer

Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: ice-o-lated
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2023, 09:42:32 AM »
anyone at the ice  o  lated contest up for flying a couple of slug Perkys??

    Hi Bob!!
    If you get here and are just looking for a pilot for hire, I'm sure there will be some one to accommodate you. Perky and Fox.35 Speed are on the event list.
   
   The club will be in for a challenge this year. We have been told by the St. Louis County Parks Department that they will be "changing their business model" this year and are taking over the issuance of permits to fly there and how the park is used. St. Louis County is 40 million dollars in the hole due to the maleficence of the irresponsible politicians in power, and they are looking at every little nook and cranny for revenue. So they are picking on the guys playing with model airplanes at Buder Park now. For over 60 years, there has been a group of local clubs called The Greater St. Louis Modeling Association Association ( or GSLMA for short) that has over seen operations at Buder since the property was donated to the County 60 some odd years ago and the modelers who use it have built most of what you see there. GSLMA issued the permits and collected the fees into a Field Fund. Basically all the Parks Depeartment has to do is cut the grass!!

   But now, they have more or less deemed GSLMA as unnecessary and they have taken over collecting the fees and keeping the funds. Flying permits will go UP from the current $35 to $90. If a club wishes to have an event they have to rent the required field. If an R/C club wants the R/C site, it will be $300 PER DAY!! If the C/L club wants the C/L site, it is $100 PER DAY!! They want us to rent the facility that has largely been built and paid for BY THE MODELERS!!                                                                                                                                                       
      The Parks Department doesn't have anything in place yet to facilitate all of this, so it will be business as usual at first and the Ice-O-Lated should go off as usual, but anything beyond that is still in question in my view. The Parks Department says they will have a web site operation by March or so to handle all of this. That remains to be seen. The governance of Buder Park and it's operations has been done by volunteers for 60 years with no problems and great success. But if things go through as they are planning they will have to add a paid staff to oversee it or just dump the responsibility on an already over worked and underpaid disgruntled employee. This all came down towards the end of this year and we still need to come up with a plan of action.
     Some remaining questions are; 1) Is there a clause in the original deed of trust for Buder by the Buder family that guarantees modelers a place to fly? We have always heard about this, and some of the old timers that were there at that time, but who are gone now, told me that something like that is in place. If you ask people from the Parks department about it, they just immeadiatly deny it, but when pressed to see if they have ever even seen the document, the answer is no. 2) Buder Park is also used by many others including Baseball, softball, soccer and lacrosse teams. There is also a nice paved path around the perimeter of the park that is used by hundreds of people for walking, jogging and riding bicycles.. People fly kites, toss Frisbees, eat picnic lunches, there have been cross country track meets held there recently also. Are they going to have these people purchase permits to use the park!!??? When Buder Park floods and there is a huge mess left behind, will these people help clean up the mess?? In years past, it has been the modelers that have done the greater part of all work to clear debris and clean up the mess.
   Stay tuned for further developments as we figure out our way through this. My first reaction is to just not comply. Don't buy permits, don't rent the facilities. Most clubs can not afford this anyway. Just let Buder sit dormant with making a few incursions in there to fun fly and such. The thought that the Department will just use it for other activities isn't too serious because they do not have the funds to change anything there. To rip out the C/L site would cost a LOT of money. The pavilion at the C/L site had a bunch of shingles ripped off by a storm a couple of years ago, and they keep telling us there are no funds to fix it but it's on the 5 year plan!! That is the kind of stupidity we are facing. I am a resident of St. louis County, and my real estate taxes and personal property taxes sure as hell have NOT gone down in my life time, and the County had doubled in size and probably tripled in population in the last 60 years, so what is the County Government doing with the money?? Time will tell

  HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL !!
     Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
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Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: ice-o-lated
« Reply #2 on: January 04, 2024, 06:08:38 PM »
Bob,

To anyone who attends the ICE-O-LATED or any other CL contest we hold this year there will be the normal entry fees but we have contests planned out for the year.  What Dan said is true the County is charging everyone "rent" to use the flying sites for special events. The Flying site in the Los Angeles area (Whittier Narrows) has been charging entry fees for years now so we are not the first county park to go thru these changes. We are going to see how this all plays out this year and then figure out how to make it work in a positive way.

If we did not host a contest or fun fly the flying activity would come to a close and then slowly the hobby will shrink some more. Contests and fun fly's inspire pilots to build models and then compete. The CL club in the Milwaukee, WI area has to rent the parking lot of the local high school for their annual contest in Aug. We are lucky in that we have a fantastic flying site that we can use that we can use with a permit on a regular basis.

So come and join us and fly at Buder with our contests. Yes, we will have to rent the flying site to host the contest, but we are going to figure it out so that we don't let the hobby die.

Fred
Fred Cronenwett
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Offline bill bischoff

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Re: ice-o-lated
« Reply #3 on: January 04, 2024, 08:08:13 PM »
Fred, how does the County know that flying activity is a contest rather than just a coincidental gathering of modelers? As they found out at Whittier, if you don't tell them it's a contest, they won't charge you for holding a contest. You still have to pay a few bucks to get into the park, but that's up to the individual rather than the hosts to pay. Otherwise, it's something like $250 to hold an "event" at Whittier these days.

Offline the original Steve Smith

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Re: ice-o-lated
« Reply #4 on: January 12, 2024, 02:30:11 PM »
Bob,

To anyone who attends the ICE-O-LATED or any other CL contest we hold this year there will be the normal entry fees but we have contests planned out for the year.  What Dan said is true the County is charging everyone "rent" to use the flying sites for special events. The Flying site in the Los Angeles area (Whittier Narrows) has been charging entry fees for years now so we are not the first county park to go thru these changes. We are going to see how this all plays out this year and then figure out how to make it work in a positive way.

If we did not host a contest or fun fly the flying activity would come to a close and then slowly the hobby will shrink some more. Contests and fun fly's inspire pilots to build models and then compete. The CL club in the Milwaukee, WI area has to rent the parking lot of the local high school for their annual contest in Aug. We are lucky in that we have a fantastic flying site that we can use that we can use with a permit on a regular basis.

So come and join us and fly at Buder with our contests. Yes, we will have to rent the flying site to host the contest, but we are going to figure it out so that we don't let the hobby die.

Fred

Thanks for clearing that up Fred. Ice-O-Lated is scheduled and sanction is approved.

Steve
Thanks,
the original Steve Smith
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: ice-o-lated
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2024, 03:50:03 PM »
Looks like the politicians are trying to pad their over pad pockets.   If I lived close I would pay a daily fee fot the use of the faciilities.   As stated don't let them know it is a contest.  This is why Kansas City Kansas doesn't have a flying circle like we had at City Park that was put in by park employees.  One of members on the park board that lived about 1/4 mile away complained about noise the planes made.  He never thought about the youngersters that the club encouraged.   The baseball diamonds are still there but for league play they have to pay for the use of the park.  I could not talk to the park department as I didn't reside in KCK.   I did try to talk to Park manager for Shawnee Mission Park but being an individual and no local club if was on deaf ears.   I did get permission to mow circle but tree on back side of circle made anything on lines over 60 foot were not safe to fly.  Now David has worked hard to get the circle he noe has.  finally got it where 4 wheelers can't tear it up.   Last tine I was here I talked a family that were riding their off road bikes on the levee and told me that they had run off a few guys who were tearing up the circle as well as the levee.   Just wish I was in better shape to help David out now.   The site over at Lake Jacomo or Friendship Park in KC.,MO was't so far. D>K
John E. "DOC" Holliday
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: ice-o-lated
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2024, 02:00:33 PM »
Bob,

To anyone who attends the ICE-O-LATED or any other CL contest we hold this year there will be the normal entry fees but we have contests planned out for the year.  What Dan said is true the County is charging everyone "rent" to use the flying sites for special events. The Flying site in the Los Angeles area (Whittier Narrows) has been charging entry fees for years now so we are not the first county park to go thru these changes. We are going to see how this all plays out this year and then figure out how to make it work in a positive way.

If we did not host a contest or fun fly the flying activity would come to a close and then slowly the hobby will shrink some more. Contests and fun fly's inspire pilots to build models and then compete. The CL club in the Milwaukee, WI area has to rent the parking lot of the local high school for their annual contest in Aug. We are lucky in that we have a fantastic flying site that we can use that we can use with a permit on a regular basis.

So come and join us and fly at Buder with our contests. Yes, we will have to rent the flying site to host the contest, but we are going to figure it out so that we don't let the hobby die.

Fred

    I don't care what they do at other sites. Buder is a considerably different situation. The County didn't have to purchase the land, it was donated to St. Louis County, allegedly to be used as a flying site in perpetuity. I have talked to several old timers, some of whom are still around and were there at the time, that there truth to this. The Buder family donated lots of real estate in the area for parks with the stipulation that it would be used for parks. There is another Buder Park in south St. Louis city that is one of those parcels. The legal papers for Buder probably carry the same stipulation but we don't know because the parks department refuses to show us a copy of the document. To me that speaks volumes right there. According to the article in American Modeler Magazine about the birth of Buder Park, almost all the labor and funding for the C/L flying site was provided by the four founding members of the Greater St. Louis Modeling Association, which were all control line clubs. Ever since then, everything you see at the C/L site has been built, bought and or paid for by the modelers that have used it for these last 60 years. The most recent was the almost $15, 000 that was spent to repave the square pad. Can you name me ANY OTHER park ANYWHERE that this can be equaled? The pavilion roof leaks like a sieve and has need repairs for how long?? It was damaged in a storm and all we get from the parks department is that "it's on the 5 year plan." We are talking about a couple of hundred buck, if that much here. I have been flying models of one kind or another at Buder Park since before I could drive!! I have seen pretty much everything that has happened , come and gone at Buder since then. All the previous attempts to take it over, put it to some other use, and all have been turned aside by one thing or another. Even the mighty Busch beer family was turned aside when they wanted to build their soccer park there. This is another reason why I think there is something to the story about a stipulation in the original legal papers.                                                                                                                                                                                                   
      The St. Louis County Parks Department has really put very little money in the flying sites. The most they do these days is cut the grass. They say that they will take over all model operations, maintenance and upkeep. I refer you again to the above statement about the pavilion roof. If the County takes over all modeling operations, then there is no need for GLSMA any longer.  Raising the yearly permit fee by tripling it it just beyond comprehension. Most of us that use the flying sites are retired and on fixed incomes. I live 25 miles from Buder. I just ran some errands and see that gas prices are starting back up and are at 3 bucks a gallon now. ( Thanks Joe!!) That means that they will be going up around the country, especially when summer gas blends hit the stations. My real estate taxes have been going up also ever two years and not just by a little bit either!! What you say about "keeping the hobby alive" may sound very noble and all, but not taking into account that clubs can not afford to pay the kinds of fees they are talking about. What are you going to do , start charging $30 or more for entry fees? How long would you expect the club treasury to last after having to cover the rental fee for the contests we have scheduled this year Especially for a flying site that WE, the modelers that use it, have built and maintained for 60 years What we have had for that long worked very well, very efficiently. If the County needs more revenue from the Parks department, I know I can point out areas where they can do that instead of picking on the few of us that use the flying sites. You say you want to do something so the hobby won't die? St. Louis County is going to price it out of existence. Maybe that is their plan, now that enough generations have passed on.
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee
AMA 28784
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AMA 480405 (American Motorcyclist Association)

Offline Fred Cronenwett

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Re: ice-o-lated
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2024, 06:14:34 PM »
I will be flying on that day....Let's hope for good weather!
Fred Cronenwett
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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: ice-o-lated
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2024, 11:36:46 AM »
Too bad the park can't be sued and held accountable for mis management.  All past park board members should have to repay all the costs.   S?P
John E. "DOC" Holliday
10421 West 56th Terrace
Shawnee, KANSAS  66203
AMA 23530  Have fun as I have and I am still breaking a record.


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