Need Opinions......Intermediate or Advanced

[Shug Emery]

So I am going to the Polk City Contest this weekend. I have only entered  one contest since returning to the hobby last year and won 1st in Intermediate in Huntersville, NC Carolina Classic Contest last Fall.
Only 3 of us in the Intermediate.
Is it best to move to Advanced in Polk or could/should I go Intermediate again?
Thanks for any insight.
Not really sure what to do.....
Shug

From this past March.......

[wwwarbird]

 I'd say make sure that you're equipment and all is fine tuned and ready to go, then step it up to advanced.

[Shug Emery]

I'd say make sure that you're equipment and all is fine tuned and ready to go, then step it up to advanced.

Thanks Wayne....one for stepping up.
Flew yesterday with Keith and Tom. Tom sent me this picture. Tuned and ready as I can be.....
Shug

[Tim Wescott]

It's hard to tell from the video, but that looks like a flight to place in the middle of the Advanced pack to me.  So it depends on your personality: do you need trophies to motivate you to attend, or do you need competition to motivate you to get better?  If your goal is to make it to Expert, and if you can stand not winning for a while, then move up to Advanced.  You may not place at first, but your peers will pull you forward faster.

[Shug Emery]

It's hard to tell from the video, but that looks like a flight to place in the middle of the Advanced pack to me.  So it depends on your personality: do you need trophies to motivate you to attend, or do you need competition to motivate you to get better?  If your goal is to make it to Expert, and if you can stand not winning for a while, then move up to Advanced.  You may not place at first, but your peers will pull you forward faster.

Don't need trophies but that plaque at Huntersville felt good. I want to get better and be challenged and fly the best I can. Leaning towards Advanced.....
Expert seems a long ways off.
Thank you Tim.
Shug

[eric rule]

Shug: There is no firm ruling concerning which skill class you should fly in so no one can make you fly in Advanced if you do not wish to do so.

For many years we have used a rough outline that goes as follows:
1) you are a Beginner if you can not fly the AMA pattern.
2) when you can complete the AMA pattern you are an Intermediate.
3) when you start scoring 400 points on a regular basis you should move yourself up to Advanced.
4) when you start scoring 500 points on a regular basis you should move yourself up to Expert.

You are the only one who can determine what skill class you should fly in. Of course if you go to a contest and blow away the competition in your skill class don't be surprised if the CD tells you that you should move yourself up a class level (he can do that if he wants to). Most CD's do not take this action but I have seen one or two do this.

One other thing to remember is that if you move yourself up to Advanced and score lower than 400 points you can always move yourself back to Intermediate for the next contest.

[Sean McEntee]

When I climbed the ranks I used the "one season" rule. If I cleaned up everywhere I went, then the following year I would start out in the next skill class.  That could be coupled with Eric's suggestion. If you're going places and laying down 400 point flights for the win, it might be time to think about moving up.

The big jump is from advanced to expert. Depending on where you're located and who is around, that can be quite a commitment. There's no rush in that one.

[Gerald Arana]

Shug,

From what you said "Don't need trophies" I'd move to advanced. Personally I think your pattern looked very good, better than mine actually. But, I don't "need no stinking trophies" either! 

I competed 25 years in RC glider and had scads of trophies (Dust collectors). Don't need/want another one!

Good luck, Jerry

[Shug Emery]

Shug: There is no firm ruling concerning which skill class you should fly in so no one can make you fly in Advanced if you do not wish to do so.

For many years we have used a rough outline that goes as follows:
1) you are a Beginner if you can not fly the AMA pattern.
2) when you can complete the AMA pattern you are an Intermediate.
3) when you start scoring 400 points on a regular basis you should move yourself up to Advanced.
4) when you start scoring 500 points on a regular basis you should move yourself up to Expert.

You are the only one who can determine what skill class you should fly in. Of course if you go to a contest and blow away the competition in your skill class don't be surprised if the CD tells you that you should move yourself up a class level (he can do that if he wants to). Most CD's do not take this action but I have seen one or two do this.

One other thing to remember is that if you move yourself up to Advanced and score lower than 400 points you can always move yourself back to Intermediate for the next contest.

Good stuff to think about Eric. Many thanks for your thoughts.
Shug

When I climbed the ranks I used the "one season" rule. If I cleaned up everywhere I went, then the following year I would start out in the next skill class.  That could be coupled with Eric's suggestion. If you're going places and laying down 400 point flights for the win, it might be time to think about moving up.

The big jump is from advanced to expert. Depending on where you're located and who is around, that can be quite a commitment. There's no rush in that one.

I appreciate it Sean. At this point I am leaning towards advanced and see whar shakes.
Shug

Shug,

From what you said "Don't need trophies" I'd move to advanced. Personally I think your pattern looked very good, better than mine actually. But, I don't "need no stinking trophies" either! 

I competed 25 years in RC glider and had scads of trophies (Dust collectors). Don't need/want another one!

Good luck, Jerry

Thankee Jerry........so it may just be Advanced for me. Though tropies are nice ...placing wll feels good too.
Shug

[Mike Keville]

Seems like you're really getting the hang of this.  You should probably go for Advanced.  Bear down....do your best.

[Randy Cuberly]

Shug,
As most here have said it's entirely up to you at this point what class you fly.  My personal reccommendation is to base it on your confidence level.  You've flown intermediate at least once so you know you're more than competitive there.  Do you feel confident that you can compete in Advanced.  If not stay where you are.  If you are confident you can compete in advanced (not win, just be in the hunt), then don't waste your time in intermediate.  You learn more by competing against people who fly better than you do.  That's important if you want to be a serious competitor.  You really don't learn much by competing at a level that you can win at.  You only get frustrated enough to work really hard when you're being beaten by your competition.  That's when you start paying attention to the little, very important things that get points.

Just my opinion but I believe it's agood one!

Randy Cuberly

[Paul Taylor]

You just don't want to be labeled a sand bagger. And I have seen a few.
As soon as I started placing in intermediate I moved myself up to Advance before people started yelling BOOT'em up.

[Scott Richlen]

Shug:

Will you be at Brodaks? 

[Shug Emery]

Seems like you're really getting the hang of this.  You should probably go for Advanced.  Bear down....do your best.

I appreciate the push. So I shall...
Shug

Shug,
As most here have said it's entirely up to you at this point what class you fly.  My personal reccommendation is to base it on your confidence level.  You've flown intermediate at least once so you know you're more than competitive there.  Do you feel confident that you can compete in Advanced.  If not stay where you are.  If you are confident you can compete in advanced (not win, just be in the hunt), then don't waste your time in intermediate.  You learn more by competing against people who fly better than you do.  That's important if you want to be a serious competitor.  You really don't learn much by competing at a level that you can win at.  You only get frustrated enough to work really hard when you're being beaten by your competition.  That's when you start paying attention to the little, very important things that get points.

Just my opinion but I believe it's agood one!

Randy Cuberly

Good to know this stuff now. Thanks for shedding some light.
I know I will advance in advanced.
Shug

You just don't want to be labeled a sand bagger. And I have seen a few.
As soon as I started placing in intermediate I moved myself up to Advance before people started yelling BOOT'em up.

No....not Sandbagger! Or Duff. Thanks Paul.
Shug

Shug:

Will you be at Brodaks? 

No Sir. I wish I could but not in the cards this year.
It looks like CL Nirvana.
Shug

[Crist Rigotti]

It's a big jump from Intermediate to Advanced.  If you do jump be prepared for the inevitable.  Use losing badly as a tool to improve.

[bob whitney]

 
  3 years ago at Brodaks i got 2nd in O/T and N-30 ,Two years ago i won both O/T and n-30, so i moved up to Expert and got 4th in O/T . i am evert bit as proud of the 4th in EX as the 1st in Advanced. am still in the middle of the pack in Pampa EX and still having fun

[Bill Johnson]

You may not place at first, but your peers will pull you forward faster.

 

[Ted Fancher]

Definitely advanced, Shug.  There were only two "grotesque maneuvers" in your whole pattern-the hourglass and the four leaf and both of those were wrong in the same way many flyer's are as they start considering the transition from Advanced to Expert.  More on that later if you want; going to grandson's "advancement" celebration.

In general crispin up your corners and continue to do maneuvers in pretty much the same places and you'll advance and be in the middle of the pack in our West Coast contests where we have some pretty darned fine Advanced fliers.

I once told a frequent Nats Advanced flyer who wanted the Advanced trophy so bad he was wasting himself in that event.  Suggested further years flying as well as he did in Advanced would brand him as an advanced flyer.  The next hear he was flying Expert and very shortly put his name on the Walker Trophy.  You clearly want to be very good.  You won't do that seeking trophies in lower classes.

Ted Fancher

[Shug Emery]

It's a big jump from Intermediate to Advanced.  If you do jump be prepared for the inevitable.  Use losing badly as a tool to improve.

I think I gotta jump and take the lumps)))) thanks Chris.


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[Shug Emery]

 
  3 years ago at Brodaks i got 2nd in O/T and N-30 ,Two years ago i won both O/T and n-30, so i moved up to Expert and got 4th in O/T . i am evert bit as proud of the 4th in EX as the 1st in Advanced. am still in the middle of the pack in Pampa EX and still having fun

Congratulations and good to hear.  Thanks for the advice.


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[Shug Emery]

Like most my pursuits....I learn more being with those better than me.


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[Shug Emery]

Definitely advanced, Shug.  There were only two "grotesque maneuvers" in your whole pattern-the hourglass and the four leaf and both of those were wrong in the same way many flyer's are as they start considering the transition from Advanced to Expert.  More on that later if you want; going to grandson's "advancement" celebration.

In general crispin up your corners and continue to do maneuvers in pretty much the same places and you'll advance and be in the middle of the pack in our West Coast contests where we have some pretty darned fine Advanced fliers.

I once told a frequent Nats Advanced flyer who wanted the Advanced trophy so bad he was wasting himself in that event.  Suggested further years flying as well as he did in Advanced would brand him as an advanced flyer.  The next hear he was flying Expert and very shortly put his name on the Walker Trophy.  You clearly want to be very good.  You won't do that seeking trophies in lower classes.

Ted Fancher

Thanks you for chiming in Ted.....I am honered. Really.
I would love to hear about those two stunts and how they are executed badly by many a flier. I know mine are grotesque.....I love that word...and at this point in my flying just trying to get through them as well as I can with what skill I may process.
Truth is that I do want to improve so moving up will aid in that mission..
Thank you for your sage advice.
Hope to shake your hand someday.
Shug


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[john e. holliday]

Shug go with ADV.   Hopefully if things work out I will be there.  I moved up to ADV just so my scores would get in the 400+ range.  Before that it was always high 300's.   Anyway,remember to have fun.

[Tim Wescott]

Thanks you for chiming in Ted.....I am homered. Really.

I'm often Homered, too.  D'oh.  Oh -- and I'm a compulsive proof-reader.  Pay me no mind.

[Tim Wescott]

I would love to hear about those two stunts and how they are executed badly by many a flier. I know mine are grotesque.....I love that word...and at this point in my flying just trying to get through them as well as I can with what skill I may process.

I'm not Ted, but:

Hourglass: the first turn wasn't too bad.  It was hard to tell whether you were on a vertical line (you were probably in front, because everyone in Advanced is), but your third turn was big (probably because of loose lines) and not only did you take it too far, but your downward line wasn't straight -- you leveled out a bit.  That forced your last turn to be early, big, and generally ugly.

Take a plumb bob out to the field, and hold it right over your eyes to get an idea of what vertical is.  You'll probably be surprised at just how far back it is.  That's where you want to put the center of the top line of the hourglass, and the intersection points of your overhead eights.  If you move off of that at all, you should be moving it further back, not forward (forward is easier for the judges to see, and easier for the wind to smack you around).

Clover: Play the video over and over again.  If you have a tool that'll let you play it frame by frame then do so, marking the airplane position with a dot on the screen at each frame.  What you should see is four loops (well, 3/4 loops) that are all the same size, and that are nestled into a cross.  What you will see is four loops of four different sizes, with the intersections splattered all over the place.

I tried for years to pick out an intersection (i.e., some feature in the background) and fly to it.  I always ended up overshooting on my first loop, then hitting the intersection on the third -- which meant that I came up through the center of my first loop, instead of kissing it's left edge.  For the last six months or so I've been still trying to hit a predetermined intersection, but as soon as I do that first loop I throw away whatever I had and just run with what I establish with the first loop.  It has helped me to consciously fly the first level segment (after the first loop) so that it's long enough (it should be close to 45 degrees).  For me, at the moment, the hardest part of the clover is starting the second loop at the right time.

[Howard Rush]

Why not fly Expert?

[Doug Moon]

Hello Shug,

I would like to jump in here if that is ok. 

I see intermediate as a place to learn how to go through the competition process flying the complete AMA pattern.  Signing up, getting pull tested, getting on the flight line, being ready when it is your turn, getting your official flights in and under 8 minutes.  All of this is a learning experience.  The better prepared you are for the small stuff the easier it is to focus on the pattern.  Those little off the circle details become habits and are a supporting role in your contest participation as well as your ability to be competitive.

Quality of pattern in intermediate can be all over the place but it is my view that once a flyer can consistently work their way through the pattern without crashing, most of the time, and feels confident in the goings on of a contest and how it works then they should be flying in Adv.  Intermediate is really just a tool for learning the contest flow if you ask me.

It is very clear to me that you are more than qualified to be flying in advanced.

Go for it, and be sure to have fun!!!

[Chris_Rud]

Why not fly Expert?

 

[Randy Cuberly]

Why not fly Expert?

Hey...Shutup...there's enough competition in Expert!

 

Randy Cuberly

[Motorman]

If you move up to advanced you can say you were undefeated in intermediate.


MM

[Brett Buck]

You just don't want to be labeled a sand bagger. And I have seen a few.
As soon as I started placing in intermediate I moved myself up to Advance before people started yelling BOOT'em up.

     Whether you move up to the next skill class or not should be determined more by how you fly than how other people complain about it. Ted (as usual) has it about right, if you aren't mangling maneuvers on a regular basis, then that should be the criterion, not what other people say. Intermediate is now about what Beginner used to be - most people only stay in for a contest or two, then move out.

    But one of the bigger problems we have had over the years is people getting advanced rapidly though the classes by being accused by local fliers of "sandbagging", and winding up as experts that wouldn't have a snowballs chance in NATS Advanced. It's somewhat inevitable if you don't have NATs Top 20 regulars flying in your local contests, but unless you do, you don't have a good reference as to what the standard in Expert might be.

      Brett
    

[Howard Rush]

If you fly in Expert nobody will complain, and you will see how you stack up against the best guys at the contest.

[Garf]

My last contest netted me 400+ points and second place in intermediate at the 2012 KOI. A lot depends on the competition. I am in no way ready for advanced.

[Scott B. Riese]

As my mother has said....(be for she passed) Left handed people rule the world

Scott (right handed) Riese

[Dan McEntee]

  It has been well documented and displayed here that you can fly pretty well, and you can also juggle pretty well. I think you should enter Advanced, and put up a flight  and while you are waiting for the fuel to run out, star single handed juggling two rubber balls! That would sort of you resorting back to the early days of the event, and why it is called "stunt"!!!
  Good luck and have fun at the contest. Give my best to all our flying buddies.
   Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[Ted Fancher]

If you fly in Expert nobody will complain, and you will see how you stack up against the best guys at the contest.

An excellent point from Howard!  When we first started skill classes back in the dark ages when I was PAMPA President there were a number of middle of the pack fliers who weren't interested in "Moving down" as they were only interested in how they were progressing against the best the contest had to offer.  There is a strong argument for that point of view.  To be totally frank I wasn't a big advocate of skill classes (especially a the Nats) in no small part for that reason (the reason my first post was stated the way it was).  After it was a reality for a few years I realized that the positive in terms of participation far outweighed the negatives...event proliferation being one of them.

The reason for that success is germane to your question as to whether to stay in one class or challenge yourself to compete with those currently just a bit better.  The reality is that probably more than half of the middle of the pack fliers are pretty darn happy with their status and find the other aspects of the event fulfill their needs from a hobby.  They'd rather win than lose but neither outcome is the reason d'etre for their participation.  The love stunt, the airplanes and the people and the opportunity to take home a trophy from time to time provides all the "outside recognition" they need.  That so many are satisfied and participate on that basis is reason aplenty to provide the forum in which they may do so.

There is a different group...and I think the one which fits you better...who find enjoyment in testing themselves against others and expecting to, at some point, do so successfully.  It's not necessarily an ego thing as much as it is an internal mechanism that triggers positive vibes when demanding excellence of oneself.  People accuse "serious" fliers of not having fun.  I've been around (and for a while part of) that group and can state unequivocally that those who approach the event that way are having a great deal of fun.  So much so that many pack the airplanes back in the van every weekend with a smile on their face as they head out to do it all over again...for a lifetime!

Yeah, there may have been (and probably still are) a small percentage for whom it becomes obsessive and "self" driven but for the most part they compete hard and shake hands amicably when the important numbers (those on the score board) have been posted.  Then they go home and have fun trying to devise away to prevent the "other" guy from having just a bit more fun then they did.

Your posts on the forum make me believe that you'd have great fun competing with those who are, today, better than you until they no longer are.  That's the fun of it for some of us.

Advanced is, right now, where that is for you.

Ted Fancher

[Shug Emery]

Having a blast down here in Polk City.. These guys have a wonderful flying site in a StatePark. Weather has been humid and very little wind.

Profile Adv/Exp results:
Keith Sandberg 1
Jared Hays 2
Shug 3

Profile Beg/Int
Rick Bollinger 1
Matt Bollinger 2
Joe Johnson 3

Ringmaster
Keith Sandberg  1
Jared Hays 2
Jim Funk 3
Rachel Sandberg 4

Classic
Jim Lee 1
Shug 2
Bill Brown 3

Old Time
Jim Lee 1
Keith Sandberg 2
Tony Kubes 3

1/2 A
Larry Lindbergh 1
Jared Hays 2
Glen Peterson 3


PAMPA Classes today.
I entered  Advanced.
The CD Bob seems to be very pleased with the turnout.
Hoping we get everything in today before the rains hit this afternoon.
We fly control line.
Shug






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[john e. holliday]

At least you guys/gal got your flights in.  Raining at the family reunion and not too many members left.   Needless to say I did not make it today and I hope the weather holds.   Thanks for pictires.

[jim gevay]

Congratulations to you, Keith, Rachael and Glen. Hope all of you had a great time and a safe trip home.

[Don Chandler]

Do what feels right and keeps you flying! I probably stayed in Beginner a year or two too long and it was my peers that got me to move up to Inremediate two seasons ago an am just now feeling comfortable there.

You definatley want to get better but at the same time you don't want to be discouraged.

Basically, if you have to ask I'd stay in Inermmediate until you know your ready. My opinion anyhow.

Mainly, have fun

Don

[Tim Wescott]

Basically, if you have to ask I'd stay in Inermmediate until you know your ready. My opinion anyhow.

Different strokes for different folks -- I'd say that if you have to ask you should move up!

[Shug Emery]

Thankee for all the encouragment to all of you that did so. It helped a lot.
I did go Advanced today. Really glad I did. Got tingly all over!
5 Flyers.
Second Place for me. Forget total score....started raining so mayhem ensued.
Forgot my Overead 8 in first flight. Good lesson learned there about focus.......
Had a terrific time and was motivated by many there.
Whoooooooo Buddy....
Shug

Chris Rudd sure can cut up a pattern)))))

[Tim Wescott]

If you're getting second out of five in Advanced, you belong in Advanced.

[Jared Hays]

Was great meeting you Shug and flying with ya! You did a fine job in Advance!  Look forward to seeing you again In Huntersville.

[john e. holliday]

Way to go Shug.  Would have been there but family and weather scared me off.   

[Shug Emery]

If you're getting second out of five in Advanced, you belong in Advanced.

It was a blast!

Was great meeting you Shug and flying with ya! You did a fine job in Advance!  Look forward to seeing you again In Huntersville.

I feel the same Jared....really good to make your aquantince. Just finished cobbling the video together...good bit of you in there.
It'll be up tomorrow.
Yessir, Huntersville.

Way to go Shug.  Would have been there but family and weather scared me off.   

Terrific Contest for sure. Steamy down there. Wish I coulde met'cha.

[Chris_Rud]

Shug! You did a fantastic! I can tell that if you keep learning your going to be a force to be reckoned with. Let me know if ever need anything!

-Chris

[Shug Emery]

Shug! You did a fantastic! I can tell that if you keep learning your going to be a force to be reckoned with. Let me know if ever need anything!

-Chris

Well Chris....you did Uber-Fantastic.
Thanks for being so open. It really helped just chatting technique with you and watching your pattern and body positioning. Economy of motion. The tip on square 8s helped a lot...not to try an execute. I am very motivated after this contest.
My plan is to get that ARF Strega together and start flying more wing. Heard that from you and a few others of late.
Sure wish you had gotten that second flight in but you got First on one flight. Practice and fuel burnt pays off)))))
I thankee for your offer to help and will for sure take you up on it.
Fly on...and on some more.
Shug

[john e. holliday]

Where are Sundays results.   I see my part time coach was there, Jim Lee.   

[Shug Emery]

Where are Sundays results.   I see my part time coach was there, Jim Lee.  

It rained on and off so footage was short.....
Expert was won by Chris Rud. Forgot who placed second and third.
Advanced was won by Kevin Prior. Me second place. Not sure who got third.....sorry.
It was done in a rush and I was running around.

Still cleaning up and doing video. Going backpacking tomorrow!