Need Help with something I have never seen before

[Ken Culbertson]

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And now for something completely different...
« on: Today at 12:28:38 AM »

   I am re-posting this here because I need some help quickly and sometimes it takes weeks to get a response on the finishing forum.

Attached is something I did not expect.      This is Rustoleum over Z-Poxy I let cure nearly one month.  It has 2 coats of primer over the Z-Poxy  The Rustoleum is Painters Choice with Primer.  This popped up in 4 places on the nose and cowl.

Obviously I am going to sand it off but what do I do to stop it from just doing it again? 

This sucks - Ken

[Massimo Rimoldi]

Hi.
The problem is usually caused by the application of a coat of product over the previous one which is not perfectly dried or (in the case of wet-on-wet applications) not respecting the correct application intervals (depending on the applied thickness).
On page 10 of the link you can find useful information.

http://wilkopaintinc.com/files/2015/06/TROUBLESHOOTING-TIPS-.pdf

Regards, Massimo

[Ken Culbertson]

Hi.
The problem is usually caused by the application of a coat of product over the previous one which is not perfectly dried or (in the case of wet-on-wet applications) not respecting the correct application intervals (depending on the applied thickness).
On page 10 of the link you can find useful information.

http://wilkopaintinc.com/files/2015/06/TROUBLESHOOTING-TIPS-.pdf

Regards, Massimo

Thanks a bunch - that link gave me the "what it is" and the "How to Fix it" now I have to figure out the "How it Happened" since I let the Z-Poxy cure for a month and used primer.  If it was a universal problem it would have done it all over the plane, not just the nose.

Ken

[Massimo Rimoldi]

If compatibility problems and catalysis errors are excluded, the problem is always related to: quantity of product applied (to each individual primer and/or finish application), time interval between the two applications.
More product applied = more time to dry
On the surface, the product is almost never applied evenly due to factors such as the shape of the painted piece, any small hitches encountered during painting, etc.
So it is very common that the phenomenon occurs on small isolated areas.
Probably (as in my case) you have applied a higher amount of primer and / or finish on the nose because it is the part of the model that first attracts your attention and so you wanted it to be beautiful smooth and well finished

Massimo

[Ken Culbertson]

If compatibility problems and catalysis errors are excluded, the problem is always related to: quantity of product applied (to each individual primer and/or finish application), time interval between the two applications.
More product applied = more time to dry
On the surface, the product is almost never applied evenly due to factors such as the shape of the painted piece, any small hitches encountered during painting, etc.
So it is very common that the phenomenon occurs on small isolated areas.

Massimo

It is refreshing to get some actual help instead of the usual "Do it my way and it won't happen"

This implies that I can mask off the affected areas, sand back down to the z-poxy, re-primer and repaint paying close attention to the thickness and I may, repeat, may survive this object lesson?

It is possible that I re-coated too soon and it is total coincidence that this only happened on the part of the ship where I used Z-Poxy.

Another thought is that I used a White Base Coat of the same brand.  Is it possible that I let it dry too long to "re-coat" with color but not long enough for the color to be a "second" coat?  I have used these paints for as long as I can remember on other things.  I always re-coated when the 1st light coat was dry to the touch which is usually 15-20 minutes.

ken

Ken

[Ken Culbertson]

Hi Ken.  Just to be different, let it go like that over the entire cowl, then just say it's the new "machinists tool box type crinkle finish". they will say oh, huh, gee, neat, nice etc. Try it.

That is not as far out as you think.  Since it dried nice and even I have thought of coming up with a cute cover story and just leaving it.  Then the alarm went off ......

Ken

[Massimo Rimoldi]

It is refreshing to get some actual help instead of the usual "Do it my way and it won't happen"

This implies that I can mask off the affected areas, sand back down to the z-poxy, re-primer and repaint paying close attention to the thickness and I may, repeat, may survive this object lesson?

It is possible that I re-coated too soon and it is total coincidence that this only happened on the part of the ship where I used Z-Poxy.

ken

Ken

NO, if you have applied Z-Poxy only on the nose it is not a coincidence.
Z-POXY has waterproofed the wood that in this area has not absorbed (or absorbed less) the solvent contained in the primer.
In this way the nose needed more time to dry.

Massimo

P.S.: Keep in mind that if the primer does not adhere perfectly to the substrate, the problem may recur.
        So do not apply the primer on Z-Poxy gloss and check that the adhesion is optimal.

[Tom Vieira]

man, a case of leprosy always sucks.  it just happened to me on my racer i'm building.  i put down rustoleum primer, let it dry for a few days, sanded it, let it dry some more, then started spraying white dope.  damn near the entire plane looked like that almost instantly.  my best guess the primer wasn't compatible, and lacquer (dope) reducers are, shall we say, a bit "zesty" compared to enamel thinners.  had to sand the entire plane again to make sure ALL of the primer was off, then i put down a really thin coat of silver dope, then a good heavy coat.  there were a couple problem spots, so sanded them down, along with the rest of the silver.  then i laid down my white, and 2 little spots were still misbehaving.

good enough for a racer!  and also i now know not to use that primer.

product compatibility issues really bite!

i've noticed this failure is almost always a compatibility issue on some level, or sometimes simply an adhesion issue from the lower levels being too slick to accept antyhing, so the coating kinda "slides around".  polyurethanes and other 2k products tend to get "solvent pops" rather than lifting (assuming you are sticking with a system of coatings and not mixing.....).  solvents from lower levels come up and "pop" through the top coats.  that's a major bummer as well.  it looks almost like a case of acne, and of course never occurs until you're laying on your clear!

if you're using enamels, always try to put the same hardener in the enamel as you are going to be using in your clear to prevent this, soft lines, and also to just get the stuff to dry!

[Perry Rose]

I use Rustoleum 2X colors and found that even Rustoleum original will attack itself no matter how long it has to dry. The only way to combat this is to apply all the coats, giving at least 10 minutes between coats, within an hour. That goes for the clear too. I have sprayed some repairs using the same can as the previous coats and it's been several months between coats and had the repair coat attack the first coats. That has happened with Dupli-Color paints too. Use dope colors for any trim colors like a glare shield. Let that dry then mask it off and spray the Rustoleum.

[john e. holliday]

Yes it is something that this happens.  I have several planes that has happened to and several that there was no problem.   Same materials.   I blame it on my impatience and weather.  In fact primer is showing on some of them.  But I don't do 20 point finishes as most that have seen my planes will attest to.

[john e. holliday]

Nothing like having a post in 2 sections.  Thought I had lost it when I seen this same post in the finishing section.

[Ken Culbertson]

Nothing like having a post in 2 sections.  Thought I had lost it when I seen this same post in the finishing section.

I put it in Finishing first and like most posts there it just sat there.  I needed answers so I copied it to general.  How did you fix it when it happened to you.  So far my best advice has been to draw panel lines around it and label it "Lift Here" or one suggestion was to rename the plane "Crinkles"

I am with you on the 20 point finish.  I will take 12-14 and spend those 100 hours on practice.  When I can do a 625 pattern I will worry about finish points which basically means I will never have to worry about them!  I want my planes to look great in the air and simply not look like crap on the ground.

Ken

[Fredvon4]

NAPA DC 540 primer....period!  IMO

I say do research and you will find very hard to determine what Rustoleum Products are Enamel or Lacquer....
basically looks like you put Nitrate over Butyrate....  or lacquer primer and Enamel top coat or vise versa

The Z poxy base has ZERO to do with this---- HOT top coat dissolving the base primer coat...it is always incompatible materials that cause this...I have shot top coats with auto paints  directly on primers in the same hour...primer only flashed off and very fast wet sand....Yes Earl Scheib type hurry up paint job....damned good for $299...wink, grin

[Tom Vieira]

NAPA DC 540 primer....period!  IMO

I say do research and you will find very hard to determine what Rustoleum Products are Enamel or Lacquer....
basically looks like you put Nitrate over Butyrate....  or lacquer primer and Enamel top coat or vise versa

The Z poxy base has ZERO to do with this---- HOT top coat dissolving the base primer coat...it is always incompatible materials that cause this...I have shot top coats with auto paints  directly on primers in the same hour...primer only flashed off and very fast wet sand....Yes Earl Scheib type hurry up paint job....damned good for $299...wink, grin

I tried 540, shook the snot out of the can, but it still came out mainly clear??

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Ken Culbertson]

I tried 540, shook the snot out of the can, but it still came out mainly clear??

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

That is because it uses snot for color.

Seriously, is there any good reason not to use Rustoleum Primer for Rustoleum Color?  I highly suspect that Painter's Choice is not enamel.  I have never had Enamel do this kind of crap.  Probably acrylic or lacquer based. 

I have already proven that I am stupid enough to get into this mess.  Now I need to prove I am smart enough to get out of it.  The total area involved is about 3 sq" counting the nose and cowl.  If I can sand if down and resurface before the rest of the nose flashes out I should be able to blend it just fine.

What I am looking for is just how to do that.

Ken

[FLOYD CARTER]

Spray cans are convenient, and I use them for household projects.  For my models, which represent a whole lot of work, I use only Brodak butyrates, start to finish.  This assures no paint compatibility problems.  It means I have to deal with spray equipment cleaning, but that's better than having to sand everything off.

[Ken Culbertson]

Spray cans are convenient, and I use them for household projects.  For my models, which represent a whole lot of work, I use only Brodak butyrates, start to finish.  This assures no paint compatibility problems.  It means I have to deal with spray equipment cleaning, but that's better than having to sand everything off.

That is good advice and I have already informed my flying buddies that from now on the only DOPE will be what goes on the plane not the person doing it!  For Now I need to know haw to fix this brain fart.

Ken

[Tom Vieira]

Spray cans are convenient, and I use them for household projects.  For my models, which represent a whole lot of work, I use only Brodak butyrates, start to finish.  This assures no paint compatibility problems.  It means I have to deal with spray equipment cleaning, but that's better than having to sand everything off.

Yup, lesson learned...  I even had brodak primer in the basement :-(

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[Mike Griffin]

Ken I don't know if this will be any help to you or not but I will give you what experience I have had.  I have used Rustoleum Regular enamelfor years and have had this "orange Peel" problem a few times, usually when I tried to put it over dope.  Also I do not think the Painters Choice is enamel and that might also be causing the problem.  When Allen Brickhaus showed me how to prepare a finish with Zpoxy and a slurry of Spackling compound, I had no further problems when using the regular Rustoleum Enamel over it.  I always thought it was the dope that was not compatible with the Rustoleum.  Maybe it was the primer you used?  I use the NAPA DC540 and have no issues with it at all.

Mike

[Ken Culbertson]

Ken I don't know if this will be any help to you or not but I will give you what experience I have had.  I have used Rustoleum Regular enamelfor years and have had this "orange Peel" problem a few times, usually when I tried to put it over dope.  Also I do not think the Painters Choice is enamel and that might also be causing the problem.  When Allen Brickhaus showed me how to prepare a finish with Zpoxy and a slurry of Spackling compound, I had no further problems when using the regular Rustoleum Enamel over it.  I always thought it was the dope that was not compatible with the Rustoleum.  Maybe it was the primer you used?  I use the NAPA DC540 and have no issues with it at all.

Mike

I like the spackling compound idea and I am pretty sure that painters choice is not enamel.
Why does everything in this hobby end up producing dust?

ken

[Larry Renger]

Warren Walker recently had a similar problem, he tracked it down to a sprayer he used with Windex for cleaning, but it had originally had a silicone oil in the bottle. It clearly could not be cleaned enough to avoid major fisheyes!

He had to sand the model back to base coats to get rid of the problem. I am not sure if even that cleaned the mess up! It depends on how far the oil could seep to lower coats. Perhaps Warren will join the discussion.

[Dan Berry]

Some paints have weird characteristics.
I know of a cabinet paint that requires less than 8 hours between or 28 days between coats. In between and it will probably wrinkle the first coat.
Part of the problem is the hot solvents.
Polyurethane varnish also has very specific instructions for additional coats.

I don't know what happened for you but there are many things in play.

[Dan McEntee]

   I have had troubles with Rustoleum even on vintage dirt bike frames! They have too many different varieties of paint and primer. Back when this all started and Allen Brickhaus pioneered his finishing system, I think he used the regular Rustoleum spray paint, and the off brand equivalent called X-o-Rust sold ant Hardware stores, and stayed with the solid colors. I think that was all that was available at the time. I think some Rustoleum paint might be urethanes of some kind because of the lengthy drying times, but these may be the ones that are the best at being fuel proof. With so much available out there these days, it's a crap shoot trying to sort it out. That is why I suggested to you in that other thread to stick with dope or lacquer products all the way through, especially since you have an electric model and no worries about fuel proofing. I'm going to agree with some one elses' assessment that it was a too heavy coat applications and too far apart, and since it was the nose of the airplane you may have unconsciously leaned on the button too hard and too long.. Allen's complete finishing system was detailed in several of his published model articles, the Beguine Mustang Racer to be for certain.. It might even be pinned or posted on the forum here somewhere.
  Good luck with it,
  Dan McEntee

[Ken Culbertson]

   I have had troubles with Rustoleum even on vintage dirt bike frames! They have too many different varieties of paint and primer. Back when this all started and Allen Brickhaus pioneered his finishing system, I think he used the regular Rustoleum spray paint, and the off brand equivalent called X-o-Rust sold ant Hardware stores, and stayed with the solid colors. I think that was all that was available at the time. I think some Rustoleum paint might be urethanes of some kind because of the lengthy drying times, but these may be the ones that are the best at being fuel proof. With so much available out there these days, it's a crap shoot trying to sort it out. That is why I suggested to you in that other thread to stick with dope or lacquer products all the way through, especially since you have an electric model and no worries about fuel proofing. I'm going to agree with some one elses' assessment that it was a too heavy coat applications and too far apart, and since it was the nose of the airplane you may have unconsciously leaned on the button too hard and too long.. Allen's complete finishing system was detailed in several of his published model articles, the Beguine Mustang Racer to be for certain.. It might even be pinned or posted on the forum here somewhere.
  Good luck with it,
  Dan McEntee

Dan, you nailed it.  I was able to duplicate, and prevent it on a test.  It was what you suggested and I alluded to being a possibility.  I let the first coat dry too long.  I got out the Hubble telescope and read the instructions.  The 2nd coat goes on when it is dry to the touch (which happens in 10 minutes) before 20 minutes or after 4 hours.  I was at about an hour - missed the window. 

Thanks to everybody - Ken
You know it really sucks to have been doing this for 60 years and having to learn everything all over again.

[Dan McEntee]

    As long as I have been doing this, the search for that easy to apply 20 point finish out of a rattle can has been the holy grail of a lot of people. Allen's system really does work pretty well, once you identify the proper products and don't vary from that. I think Allen used mostly the X-O-Rust paint, maybe because that is all they had at the hardware store where he lived, or they worked the best and most consistent. But he only used that on the fuselage, and covered the flying surfaces with iron on coverings, and paint the trims on to that sometimes. He had connections with some one at a local body shop and when finished would give a model just a lightest coat of clear as possible. Flying these things can be hard on them, and if you are like me, you do more damage loading and unloading the car and such, and this method is pretty durable, and still looks nice. it won't get you on the front row, but with some planning you won't be tail end Charlie either. I truly believe that Rustoleum might have too many products on the market, and I have to wonder why sometimes. The main thing to remember is that the brush on stuff IS NOT THE SAME as the paint in the spray cans, and none of it is fuel resistant, and i think it is true enamel. Too many people have already experienced this and have been disappointed.
  Type at you later,
   Dan McEntee

[Steve Helmick]

FYI, "Acrylic" is not the problem. Acrylic is a plastic and can be the basic pigment used in lacquer, or enamel, or 2-part whatever that stuff is paint. Acrylic lacquer does tend to be brittle and prone to crazing. I don't know about acrylic enamel, but probably same problem.

Using spray bomb products is a risky deal if you do not use the same exact product line (and follow their directions to the letter), because they seldom say what the product actually is (i.e., enamel or lacquer).  A lot of the NW Expert PA guys have tried various automotive wonder paints including water based, but I believe all have returned to using butyrate dope with a 2-part clear coat.  Steve