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Author Topic: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware  (Read 2997 times)

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« on: February 08, 2022, 08:12:02 PM »
Some of you may have been following my 11 year old son trying to build a Fancherized Twister to use for the NATs this year. We have been posting the progress in the Building Techniques section. I am a novice builder, so I have been turning to you all and the Hangout calls to get advice on various things.

We have arrived at the pushrod system for the Fancherized Twister. I have never built a flapped plane, so having a two horned system is new for me. I have attached pics of the Fancherized pushrod plans. I also have pictured our bellcrank and the kit provided pushrod to the flap. That pushrod is prebent. While using the prebent pusrod may work out just fine I am worried that if any of the build is a little off we will have the pushrod miss ending at the hingline.

I am interested in you all educating us on other (more adjustable and perhaps reliable) hardware to consider as we look to outfit our pushrod system. I have bent steel threaded pushrods and used clevises for my other planes. All other hardware would be new for us. We are all ears. Thanks for your help.

Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2022, 08:31:37 PM »
I myself would go with a ball link(4-40) or a good clevis for adjustment for the flap.  Then the same for thr elevator end.

Also use washers on each side if the ball to make sure it stays put. H^^
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2022, 08:53:59 PM »
You really want to use a carbon fiber pushrod from the flap to the elevator.  Heavy duty 4-40 sized clevises are OK if you're using them with nylon horns.  There's stories about them not aging well, but when I was using them I always solved that problem by crashing the plane so often that the airframe wore out before the clevises.  Personally, I think that if you're using nylon horns, then if you replace the clevices every 100 flights or so you'll be fine.

I think you'll probably be fine with that link from the bellcrank to the flap -- but if you want to upgrade it with a clevis on the flap end, don't hesitate.  I'd get a solder-on 4-40 rod end, cut off the Z-bend and solder the rod end in its place.  That'll give you some adjustability.

Someone makes CF pushrod kits.  I don't know who does because I'm crazy and I make my own pieces on my lathe.  I was writing up how to make them yourself, realized it was shaping up to be a novel, and stopped -- just wait, and see if someone can tell you where to buy suitable CF pushrod kits. 

Hopefully someone will read this and volunteer some ideas for sources.

If no one does and I don't volunteer the information, send me a PM.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2022, 08:55:13 PM »
I myself would go with a ball link(4-40) or a good clevis for adjustment for the flap.  Then the same for thr elevator end.

Also use washers on each side if the ball to make sure it stays put. H^^

With nylon horns I'd be worried about the horn twisting from the offset ball, or being weakened too much by shoving a 4-40 screw through it -- that's why I was suggesting clevises (with which I've had good luck when used with Sig nylon horns).
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2022, 09:09:42 PM »
For an utterly over the top view of making pushrods for a Fancherized Twister, see this threadIf you have a lathe and know what to do with it, these pushrod ends have worked very, very well for me.  They have over 500 flights, and no sign of trouble.  I use the same basic design on all my models.

6mm CF arrow shaft ($1, used, at an archery shop), some scrap aluminum machined to fit, some bog-standard 4-40 socket-head screws, all held together with hobby-grade epoxy glue.


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Offline Dan Berry

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2022, 09:27:36 PM »
Get a carbon tube pushrod and end fittings from Okie Air for the elevator pushrod.
This eliminates pushrod guides and is EASY to adjust.
Then again …. The kit hardware has worked well on a LOT of Twisters, including my brother’s.
The ability to fine tune the elevator rod is invaluable. The bent wire rod from the bellcrank doesn’t really need to be adjustable for this venture.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2022, 09:40:01 PM »
Well, you finally got to the hard part. There is allot of information on this site about how a control system should be made. I suggest you search through it and start reading. Some bullet points: The nylon control horns are horrible and will probably cause a crash please don't use them.  First thing, is the bellcrank 4" between lead out holes? You want the middle hole for the push rod if you expect to have enough travel for stunts. So much more but, the info is on this site, just read enough so you know what is normal and what is someone's pipe dream.

Motorman 8)

That's a Sig 3" bellcrank.  It's on the small side for a Twister, but it'll be OK for the level they're flying.  You can go over board with a Twister, as witnessed by the fact that I took about two years to build mine.  Agree that Brendan should use the middle hole on the bellcrank: that inner hole position is right for a Ringmaster or other 1950's plane with a too-large elevator; not right for a Twister.

I've had good luck with nylon horns.  I wouldn't use them now, but for a Beginner or Intermediate-level airplane, they're fine (and, in fact, my wife is building an Akromaster; we'll be using the nylon horn that came with the kit).
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The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2022, 10:04:48 PM »
I am with Doc on this one.  Scrap the wire and get some CF, at least for the elevator and no clevises. Use ball links. If you have a hobby shop that stocks RC stuff you should be able to get a CF rod and some end connectors.  If you make the elevator rod with a left-hand thread on one end and a right-hand thread on the other, you will have a field adjustable elevator without taking anything off.  This is pretty standard practice so the parts should be pretty easy to find.  I would go with the plans bellcrank mount.  You can get into floating after you have some builds under your belt.  That 3" Bellcrank is fine but it will take some work to get the leadouts bushed.  I am going to leave that one to someone else.   You don't need a 4" in a twister.   Don't restrict the movement too much.  If the plane survives the early stunts then you will want that control movement.  Restrict it at the handle but let the plane have as much movement as it can. 

If you have the time and money is not an issue, call Russel at Okie Air and tell him you want a set of pushrods for a stock Twister with ball links and left/right threads.  I think he does that standard....and you need them yesterday.  If you do call Russel ask him if he can also get you a 3" bellcrank already wired.  His stuff is the old Tom Morris controls and they probably drive about half of the ships out three.  As your skills improve you will have a sample show you how it is done.

I am talking too much and you are falling asleep - Good Luck

Ken

Well I guess I really was because there are 6 posts since I started and this is probably already old news -  mw~
And to think that I deleted my rant on nylon horns.... LL~   So, instead I will comment on 4" bellcranks in small hands.  The amount of movement to get full control with a 4" is about 1/2" more than with a 3".  When you are learning stunt it would be a good idea to learn good technique from the beginning.  A lot of us out here believe that the least arm movement possible to complete a maneuver is best.  That extra movement for a smaller hand means more wrist or perhaps some elbow. 
« Last Edit: February 08, 2022, 10:33:17 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2022, 10:22:15 PM »
... tell him you want a set of pushrods for a stock Twister with ball links and left/right threads.  ...

Ken, he's building a Fancherized Twister.

Brendan, tell him you want a set of pushrods for a Fancherized Twister.  He should know what length to make them.
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2022, 10:26:31 PM »
Lots of good stuff (as expected) from my quick read. Will probably take a solid look tomorrow night. Keep the thoughts coming. Also, I literally live 20 minutes from Brodaks Hobby Shop. If some of the hardware makes sense from there, I benefit from having no shipping costs. Thanks for all your help so far.

Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2022, 10:36:48 PM »
Lots of good stuff (as expected) from my quick read. Will probably take a solid look tomorrow night. Keep the thoughts coming. Also, I literally live 20 minutes from Brodaks Hobby Shop. If some of the hardware makes sense from there, I benefit from having no shipping costs. Thanks for all your help so far.

Go for a visit!  They do have some CF pushrod stuff, but I couldn't tell from the catalog if it's what you need -- a personal visit may clarify that.  Measure the pushrod lengths on the plan (or take the plan with you).

I live about a 5-day drive away from Brodak's so I'm not going there on a whim!
AMA 64232

The problem with electric is that once you get the smoke generator and sound system installed, the plane is too heavy.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2022, 10:38:19 PM »
Ken, he's building a Fancherized Twister.

Brendan, tell him you want a set of pushrods for a Fancherized Twister.  He should know what length to make them.

I am sorry Ted!

Ken
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Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2022, 02:49:22 AM »
Well, I guess I'm the odd man out here. You guys can make this all about ProStunt if you want to, but for an "early in your career, and actual young builder of the model" it is better to get the thing built in a workman-like manner and maybe start another one with what you learn from the first.

1. There's no real need to upgrade the bellcrank to maximus Zootness. The SIG piece works. Just get the control ratios right.

2. Properly made stranded leadouts going thru a nylon bellcrank is plenty good for a thousand flights. That's right, bare cable on chamfered, rounded holes in the nylon. It is already a low friction combination. I have yet to see a nylon bellcrank damaged by this method. We are not talking about a 65 oz. plane here with a BullRoarer .60 on it. Terminate the leadouts to the bellcrank in much the same way the rulebook says to terminate the ends of your flying lines. Just use a single loop thru the bellcrank. The loop in the wire should be made by gently wrapping it around an appropriate-size dowel or rod. Make it a teardrop shape. Wrap with fine copper wire, not heavy gauge stuff. (I use 32 to 36AWG and it works well. Coat the copper wire with epoxy. Keep it off the leadout wires! All of this minimizes the fatigue flexing and concentrated bending, so the cable with handle it. Never grab the leadout wire (or lines for that matter) with pliers. That's going to cause damage where a failure may now occur. Don't make it complicated, just pay attention to craftsmanship.

3. The plastic horns out there seem to work fine for your basic "40-sized" planes. One method that works well is to take the left/right pair that DuBro(?) sells and use them back-to-back. See the picture attached. Other methods also work.

4. I wouldn't use a clevis, but that's me. And certainly don't use the threaded brass coupler shaft that you solder onto a wire pushrod. That's going to be short-lived. If you decide that it will be a clevis on this one, use the long pre-thread end rods in the hobby rack. They come in lots of lengths. All that said about not preferring the hobby clevisis for control line models, I've used a lot of them on control line racing planes, and within certain limits, they work. And quite a few on "up to .40-size stunt planes."  Those are not expected to be the most reliable, but in most cases, that is how the plane was set up when I got it. The best of the breed in my opinion are the Sullivan gold ones with the 4-40 threads. I wouldn't use the smaller threaded ones on anything but a half-A, and on those, I still use the 4-40s.

5. It is really important that the control system is absolutely free. This means that things must line up, be the right angles. no dragging on planking, no dragging on plywood bellcrank mounts. Take as much time and mocking things up as you need to to get there.

6. There's nothing wrong with a 3/32 music wire pushrod on a plane like this. But you will need a pushrod guide in the middle of the flap-to-elevator pushrod. If you look at the geometry, you will see that while each end of the pushrod translates up and down as these move in an arc about the hinges, the center of the pushrod will hardly move up and down at all. That's the sweet spot. Use a large cotter pin that is a loose slip fit to the pushrod. Clip the ends to shorten it. Mark your center point and drill a close-fit hole in the fuselage. A drop of CyA and you're done. Or use epoxy if you got a loose fit when you drilled the hole. Just be sure you degrease the cotter pin with either. No carbon tube needed.

7. Make sure your flap pushrod termination does not interfere with your elevator pushrod termination on the flap horn. Several times I have thought I got just the right geometry, only to find out that the pushrods interfered at the flap horn before I got to my desired travel limits.

8. If you want 1:1 controls, that means that the horn holes used must be the same on both the elevator and the flaps. You want less flaps, then move in on the elevator horn, and vice-versa. The hole that the bellcrank-to-flap pushrod goes into has nothing to do with this. That said, the farther out on the flap horn that the flap pushrod goes, the lower the loads in it, the lower the wear, and most importantly here the less angular slop in the controls for the given fits of pushrod diameter and horn holes. Start with the tightest fit that is absolutely free.

9. If you want to use rod ends they work, but you may have some trouble keeping them tight and trouble-free if you use plastic horns. Big washers help. Don't just put the big wrench to it and crush the plastic. That is going to make things (much) less reliable. In the example picture of my PTwainer, a PT-19 treatment of the Twister, I made a simple aluminum sheet elevator horn. I use red LocTite on the screw threads on the pivot screw. I do the same on the pivot ball if you go with the "hooded" ball ends.

10. I would avoid the old "truism" that the control system needs "slop" to stop hunting. You can go read endless posts about this, but quite honestly, I have tried this on two hunters and it didn't help at all. Getting the rubbing out of the system when the leadouts were under tension fixed one plane; the other one has resisted all efforts to date. It may need a new stab to fix it.

Of course, if the weather outside is unflyable, and the plane is the immediate precursor to a ProStunt SouperZoot--well, use both hands to grab, then shake your wallet and have a ball. It is a hobby of experimentation. Just don't believe that titanium pushrod ends in a carbon fiber tube will make you fly better. Not really. Just like a thousand-dollar tennis racket would ever make me a tournament winner....

If the build crew already knows all this, then my apologies for not asking questions before running my mouth keyboard.....

Best of luck and have fun building!

Dave




Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2022, 02:52:53 AM »
Here's a close-up of the flap horn. It shows one way to do this on a modified Twister.

Offline Dave Hull

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2022, 02:55:15 AM »
And here's a bottom view of the elevator horn, with rod end.

Offline Perry Rose

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2022, 06:24:48 AM »
The most important thing is to mark the wing chord line at the end of the flap on the fuselage. Knowing where "Zero"is is very important. Without that reference point the flaps cannot be aligned perfectly with the wing.
Brodak sells 3/32 pushrods with "Z" bend #BH-733. Dubro sells 4-40 threaded couplers #336 and Kwik Links also 4-40. This means you have one moving part from the bellcrank to the flap horn. Which is easily adjusted. If you are worried about the plastic horns Brodak sells steel horns offset for profiles. 
  I hear the worries about the 3/32 wire but from the bellcrank to the flap horn you have a 4 .5 inch span. the solder on coupler and clevis take 1.5 inches away from that. You won't bend a 3 inch piece of 3/32 wire. Hobby shops sell carbon tube you can use for the flap to elevator push rod. An "L" bend at the flap horn and a 4-40 clevis at the elevator is just perfect in simplicity and reliability and adjustability. Counting the bellcrank that gives you a control system with 3 moving parts.
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Offline Dan McEntee

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2022, 07:54:08 AM »
   When you are new to a situation, sometimes the more simple things are the better. For a pushrod, especially for a beginner's airplane, music wire can work just as well as anything else when you consider that the airplane could be considered expendable at that point in the learning curve. If you make a mistake making up a music wire pushrod, it can be dealt with or replaced a lot more cheaply that replacing carbon fiber and fittings. The main thing with an elevator pushrod is that you do need to have a fair lead or guide between the flaps and the elevator to control flex. I have won a lot of trophies with a SIG Primary Force and other models with plain wire pushrods. They can be adjustable sometimes by just making a simple tweak or bend in them and corrections in alignment can be made the same way. In other words you can learn a heck of a lot about installing, adjusting and perfecting the controls using just music wire. And it doesn't have to be music wire either. I have used the DuBro line of longer, softer pushrod materials with great results as it bends easier if you need to make a Z bend of something, and if you are using wheel collars for anything, a set screw bites into the softer surface better that the hard, slick music wire. You just need to pay attention to alignment and make sure you have that fair lead or guide brace where it should be. For models like a Twister or any other profile, or even full fuselage models this size, I have used the Great Planes 4-40 chrome plated clevises with absolutely no problems. They are much stronger than DuBro or any others that I have seen, take solder very easily if you need to, and were always available. I assume that they are still made after Tower went south, but I haven't had to buy any since then so not sure. they are easily adjusted and can be locked in position with a jamb nut. They even come with a slice of fuel line to slip over the sides to keep them from opening up accidently. When you are a little further down the road experience wise and ready to build that first world beater stunt model that you have always wanted to build, then go for the exotic stuff where it may pay off for you to use it. Also along this line while you are learning about pushrods, they do hook up at each end to a control horn, and lots to chose from out there also. Hardware stores also carry aluminum angle that can be carved up into an almost limitless supply of custom control horns. Just make a chip board template of what size and shape you want, transfer that to the metal, , drill all the holes you need first and then cut it out. A little work with a file and a sanding block and there you are. SIG and DuBro have control horns in all sorts of sizes and shapes, and in left an d right hand versions also. Just spend some time at the computer at their respective sight and examine them all to get familiar with them so you will have an idea what's put there next time.
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Offline Tim Wescott

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2022, 08:00:20 AM »
There's nothing wrong with a 3/32 music wire pushrod on a plane like this. But you will need a pushrod guide in the middle of the flap-to-elevator pushrod.

The reason I didn't just say to use the flap to elevator pushrod in the kit is because Brendan needs to make one up anyway (it's Fancherized), and because CF pushrods may be hard to describe, but they're easy to make.

BTW, I like your method of using a pushrod with about a 3/32" ID and just epoxying wire into the end.  As long as the wire has some "tooth" to it, that should work well.
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Offline EddyR

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2022, 09:10:27 AM »
Here is what I noticed in your picture is the plans show a carbon rod with ball links but you have a piece of music wire  as the kit gives you. Through that piece of wire away and do it correct. The end on the wire is very short where it goes through the flap horn and would require soldering on a washer. Also I never would use set screw wheel retainers to hold a control system together. Some will say I use them for years and they never failed. Ask Ted or Brett if they would use them.
  It is so simple to do it correct why bother with anything else.
Ed
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Offline phil c

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2022, 11:09:43 AM »
Some of you may have been following my 11 year old son trying to build a Fancherized Twister to use for the NATs this year. We have been posting the progress in the Building Techniques section. I am a novice builder, so I have been turning to you all and the Hangout calls to get advice on various things.

We have arrived at the pushrod system for the Fancherized Twister. I have never built a flapped plane, so having a two horned system is new for me. I have attached pics of the Fancherized pushrod plans. I also have pictured our bellcrank and the kit provided pushrod to the flap. That pushrod is prebent. While using the prebent pusrod may work out just fine I am worried that if any of the build is a little off we will have the pushrod miss ending at the hingline.

Hi Brendon- step one in the control system is to make sure the wire is 90deg. to the horns on both flaps and elevator.  The picture of the side view shows it exactly.  The pushrod is at an angle to the horn.  It will fly that way, but it
 makes subtle differences in the movement of the  handle, elevator and flaps.  The elevator will move slightly faster up than the flaps move down and vice versa.

Good luck!

Phil Cartier
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I am interested in you all educating us on other (more adjustable and perhaps reliable) hardware to consider as we look to outfit our pushrod system. I have bent steel threaded pushrods and used clevises for my other planes. All other hardware would be new for us. We are all ears. Thanks for your help.
phil Cartier

Offline FLOYD CARTER

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2022, 11:12:01 AM »
A pre-bent wire from bellcrank to flaps has 99% chance of being wrong length because of small variations in building.  I use those 4-40 threaded control rods and ball links so that everything can be adjusted.
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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2022, 01:12:45 PM »
Hi Brendan, I have used most of the methods mentioned above, and most worked satisfactorily. I also feel that keeping it simple, but strong and reliable, is of the most concern.

The best, strongest, and most reliable I've found is this one for the flap push-rod.

I use 4-40 threaded rod cut to proper length. I use Ball joints on each end of the rod.

I use smaller dia. carbon fiber tube that just slips over the threaded rod. This tube is epoxied to the area between the ends.

This results in a very strong push-rod with ball links on each end.

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #22 on: February 09, 2022, 02:07:34 PM »
It seems we have managed to formulate really strong arguments for both using the kit supplied hardware or not using it.  So, I would say weigh your goals and choose.  Both will work.  If your goal is to get in the air as fast as possible then save the trip to Brodak (I can't imagine being 20 minutes from them...blasphemy) and use the kit hardware.  If your goal is to learn how to build competition stunt planes, then don't waste the opportunity.  Don't use the "well it will just crash learning the pattern" excuse to not do things right.  Convince yourself that you won't crash and pretty soon you won't, at least not from pilot error.  Don't EVER expect to crash.  It will happen some, but let it be a surprise then learn from it so it never happens the same way again.  Finally, what part of the airplane is rarely damaged beyond repair in a crash?  You got it, the controls.  You can use them over and over so why not invest in good ones.

Ken
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Offline Mark wood

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2022, 02:45:17 PM »
It seems we have managed to formulate really strong arguments for both using the kit supplied hardware or not using it.  So, I would say weigh your goals and choose.  Both will work.  If your goal is to get in the air as fast as possible then save the trip to Brodak (I can't imagine being 20 minutes from them...blasphemy) and use the kit hardware.  If your goal is to learn how to build competition stunt planes, then don't waste the opportunity.  Don't use the "well it will just crash learning the pattern" excuse to not do things right.  Convince yourself that you won't crash and pretty soon you won't, at least not from pilot error.  Don't EVER expect to crash.  It will happen some, but let it be a surprise then learn from it so it never happens the same way again.  Finally, what part of the airplane is rarely damaged beyond repair in a crash?  You got it, the controls.  You can use them over and over so why not invest in good ones.

Ken

For all of the machine tools and skills I have in the shop including the ubergeekedness I possess, when I'm building from a kit which includes halfway decent hardware, I use the hardware from the kit.  Saves me time. The performance difference between a Z bent rod in the bellcrank and a ball link isn't hugely significant. It takes quite a bit of pilot proficiency to recognize that difference. Just build it the way it makes the most sense to you.. It'll fly.
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Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2022, 02:59:47 PM »
You really want to use a carbon fiber pushrod from the flap to the elevator.  Heavy duty 4-40 sized clevises are OK if you're using them with nylon horns.  There's stories about them not aging well, but when I was using them I always solved that problem by crashing the plane so often that the airframe wore out before the clevises.

This is how we fly too. Who needs all the bells and whistles when the plane won't around long enough to benefit from them  ;D

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2022, 03:02:30 PM »
I think you'll probably be fine with that link from the bellcrank to the flap -- but if you want to upgrade it with a clevis on the flap end, don't hesitate.  I'd get a solder-on 4-40 rod end, cut off the Z-bend and solder the rod end in its place.  That'll give you some adjustability

That's a creative solution that makes perfect sense!

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2022, 04:11:31 PM »
I am with Doc on this one.  Scrap the wire and get some CF, at least for the elevator and no clevises. Use ball links. If you have a hobby shop that stocks RC stuff you should be able to get a CF rod and some end connectors.  If you make the elevator rod with a left-hand thread on one end and a right-hand thread

As you suggest, I may call Russel at Okie Air and see what he's got. But isn terms of making my own, several people mention buying carbon fiber rods, but I don't understand the parts to buy to get the threads on the end so I can attach the ball links. I like the idea of being able to adjust at the field by a simple twist of the pushrod, but I am not quite sure how people transition from the carbonfiber tube to the links. Perhaps others answered this as I make my way through the responses.

Offline Craig Beswick

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2022, 04:34:48 PM »
RSM Distribution.

https://rsmdistribution.com/index.php
Look under Building Hardware.

I have used cheaper aluminium ones from Poland. However, after seeing what happened to them, after a crash, I will be paying the extra in future!
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Offline Dan Berry

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #28 on: February 09, 2022, 04:46:43 PM »
As you suggest, I may call Russel at Okie Air and see what he's got. But isn terms of making my own, several people mention buying carbon fiber rods, but I don't understand the parts to buy to get the threads on the end so I can attach the ball links. I like the idea of being able to adjust at the field by a simple twist of the pushrod, but I am not quite sure how people transition from the carbonfiber tube to the links. Perhaps others answered this as I make my way through the responses.

Russ has the fittings and the cf tubes. He also has bellcranks with leadouts attached. And has the ball links. It's pretty easy to make them work.
You glue the fittings into the tubes with JB Weld. The fittings are right and left hand thread so that twisting the pushrod makes the adjustment much like a turnbuckle. If you have the time it's worth getting the stuff from him.
There is one trick to gluing the ends in--- you must retain them because air pressure inside the tube will push them out before the glue cures.

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #29 on: February 09, 2022, 06:21:41 PM »
Dave Hull: Thanks for the LONG response and all the details. Couldn't have asked for a more thorough set of details across the whole control system. I appreciate the simple cost effective advice. Finally, the pics are a great visual for a novice builder like me. It really helps me to see what I am aiming to emulate.

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #30 on: February 09, 2022, 07:09:14 PM »
Okay. Got through it all. You all nailed it!!! Lots of thoughts and perspectives. Very thorough. I want to thank all of you that responded and even other comments that may yet be made. I almost wanted to respond to everybody but obviously that would take a while.  I am sure I will be reviewing several times to try and digest it all.

ONE FINAL QUESTION (Probably already answered but I missed it). IF I go with a carbon the carbon fiber tube approach from bell crank to flap, what type of connector gets used on the bellcrank? I can't picture how you link up the rod to the bellcrank. If someone even has a picture of that setup that would be much appreciated. Thanks!

Offline Ken Culbertson

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #31 on: February 09, 2022, 07:26:19 PM »
Russ has the fittings and the cf tubes. He also has bellcranks with leadouts attached. And has the ball links. It's pretty easy to make them work.
You glue the fittings into the tubes with JB Weld. The fittings are right and left hand thread so that twisting the pushrod makes the adjustment much like a turnbuckle. If you have the time it's worth getting the stuff from him.
There is one trick to gluing the ends in--- you must retain them because air pressure inside the tube will push them out before the glue cures.
Dan - I drill a really tiny hole in the tube with the smallest drill I can find about 1/4" past where the insert ends to let the air out then fill it with JB after the ends are pushed in.  I make sure to wrap the thread past that point.  I made that mistake on my first one too!

Ken

PS - use a sharp drill and don't push hard.  CF splits easily.

In response to your last post.  This is a set Tom Morris made for me about 5 years ago.  When finally installed the ball link wound have two washers, one on top, the other on the bottom.  You can add washers under the pushrod till you have plenty of clearance for the leadouts.  I drill my holes in the BC a bit small then tap the hole for 4-40.  I still put a locknut on the bottom then add some JB weld just for grins.  I spend about an hour playing with the leadouts and pushrod trying to find a way to get them hung up or over-center the bellcrank.  Unless you want to do some nasty surgery or God forbid crash, you are never going to see that bellcrank again.

Ken
« Last Edit: February 09, 2022, 07:56:46 PM by Ken Culbertson »
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Offline Dan Berry

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #32 on: February 09, 2022, 10:16:21 PM »
Okay. Got through it all. You all nailed it!!! Lots of thoughts and perspectives. Very thorough. I want to thank all of you that responded and even other comments that may yet be made. I almost wanted to respond to everybody but obviously that would take a while.  I am sure I will be reviewing several times to try and digest it all.

ONE FINAL QUESTION (Probably already answered but I missed it). IF I go with a carbon the carbon fiber tube approach from bell crank to flap, what type of connector gets used on the bellcrank? I can't picture how you link up the rod to the bellcrank. If someone even has a picture of that setup that would be much appreciated. Thanks!
The bellcrank uses the ball link. There is a half round standoff that affords clearance

Offline jerry v

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #33 on: February 10, 2022, 06:57:26 AM »
Z bend at the belcrank end of control rod is simple and reliable. In the dramatic geometry of the short distance to flap horn Z bend works as good as the balllink. Make new Z bend rod and have it longer to bend L shape later to match the control horn and flap position in the final assembly. Adjustment can be made by splitting the control wire an solder the split pin as the coupler.
Ballinks are the best, but it’s the future. In case of crash plastic and carbon fiber will break, but steel rod can be bent back to previous shape))

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Brendan Eberenz

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #34 on: February 10, 2022, 07:49:19 AM »
Z bend at the belcrank end of control rod is simple and reliable. In the dramatic geometry of the short distance to flap horn Z bend works as good as the balllink. 

Thanks for the pics Jerry and Ken. They really tie it all together for me.

Offline jerry v

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #35 on: February 10, 2022, 08:10:32 AM »
Here is more variety:

Jerry
Variety is the spice of life.

Offline Dan Berry

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #36 on: February 10, 2022, 08:13:47 AM »
Thanks for the pics Jerry and Ken. They really tie it all together for me.

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Offline john e. holliday

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Re: Need Help on Pushrod Hardware
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2022, 10:23:16 AM »
In the pic of the conventional bell crank mount with the ply platform, I  cut another piece of ply to fit over the extended bolt to fit between the ribs on top of the bell crank.  if you do a search you will see what i mean, D>K
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