Hand or handle positioning when the plane is to my right.

[Dane Martin]

I know it's nearly impossible at times to telephone troubleshoot, but I seem to have a funny issue when the plane is to my right (I think. That may have nothing to do with it) I first noticed it in my triangles. First corner looked cool, top looked cool, but as it traveled down that last leg, I some how just pulled up too early everytime. Did 5 of those then went to inside squares. Kinda similar situation when the planes on the right. I know I need to run some gallons through this plane. Just wondering if anyone had heard of that, and possible solutions.

[Dan McEntee]

  The common factor here is that the model is pointed down in each maneuver and you are just ground shy. As you progress in skill level, learn to look past the front of the airplane and find the ground in your field of vision, and pull out accordingly. Another way to put it is that you have tunnel vision and are watching the model, trying to time the maneuver. It's like hitting a nail with a hammer. If you watch the hammer head, you will miss the nail, but keep your eye on the target, and you will hit it every time with practice. You just need to learn to use your whole field of vision. When I am flying my best, I can see the outline of the maneuver as I am approaching where it should be placed, and just fly the airplane around the out line. It takes focus, concentration and practice. And you can regress a bit at any time also!
  Type at you later,
  Dan McEntee

[Dane Martin]

I like what you're saying Dan. I felt that my outside squares looked good. The difference is that the down line is on my left.
I pretend to be a fearless combat flyer most days. I will say this is with a new to me magnum with an ST51. Perhaps the added pull and unknown plane added to an unconscious fear? I'll try to put up 5 flights in a row and let you know. Those two maneuvers seemed to be my worst problem

[phil c]

Several possibilities-  If you hold your handle with the up line on top(very very common) the plane will stop turning when is diving inverted when you stop following the plane.  You start giving up at about 20 ft,  you stop moving your hand and the plane automatically adds more up as it goes below your hand.

Frozen nerves- if you're afraid of hitting the ground when you start turning that last corner you give more control than needed and don't have time to ease off before the plane overshoots the turn.  If you can find some good video of some top fliers you will see(with difficulty) that many start a sharp turn with a little bit of pre-turn.  That sets the muscles in motion for a smooth, coordinated move can be started and stopped.  It also takes lots of practice to develop that muscle memory to use.

In an inverted dive the plane is accelerating towards the ground, adding several ft/sec to 70 or so it finished the top corner with.  Knowing from past experience that too wide a turn will end up in the dirt the reflex is to turn too soon and too hard.

It might go easier to do as Dan says- visualize the maneuver centered in front of you and fly the plane on that path.  It probably is a good idea to make the triangles bigger to start and get the shape right.  Once you can fly a nice, even-sided triangle with the top point in the middle, then start working on making the corners tighter and the sides longer and bringing the size down to 45deg.

[Sean McEntee]

-Do you have this issue with outside maneuvers too or just insides? ( that first dive in the outside squares terrified me for years, and still creep me out when out of practice)

-is this a new model that you’re experiencing this with or any model that you fly the pattern with?

[Dane Martin]

I flew a couple stunt contests in 2014, or maybe the end of 2013. I've been flying combat exclusively since last year. So I didn't think I had issues with either. It feels like my problem is insides. Like at the top corner of the triangle, when I pull over the top, it feels like it wants to just loop through. I tried to fly it at the ground, but still just pulled in. New plane, so I understand I need more flight time. It was just weird that that seemed to remain the same each time I tried it.

[Dane Martin]

Oh, and to answer that part of your question Sean, my outside square looks a lot better than my inside. Lol

[Dan McEntee]

I flew a couple stunt contests in 2014, or maybe the end of 2013. I've been flying combat exclusively since last year. So I didn't think I had issues with either. It feels like my problem is insides. Like at the top corner of the triangle, when I pull over the top, it feels like it wants to just loop through. I tried to fly it at the ground, but still just pulled in. New plane, so I understand I need more flight time. It was just weird that that seemed to remain the same each time I tried it.

      Well this explains part of it also, I think. There couldn't be two more different airplanes than a Magnum with a ST.51 and a combat model! Way different speeds and control response, and you have to slow your mind down to sly stunt. You just have to focus a lot more. I'll bet the outside squares you think are fine look more like a backwards "D" and that first downward leg is curved. Have some one "judge" you the next time you fly and instead of scores, have them draw out what the shapes look like.
    Type at you later,
    Dan McEntee

[EddyR]

Dane      I have coached a lot of people over the years and one of the most common problems is the flyer does not stand square to the maneuver. I think you are flying to your right. Fly the the maneuver shoulder to shoulder. Fly it in front of you not off to one side. Do not stand sideways to the maneuver. Let us know if I am correct.
Ed

[john e. holliday]

As Eddy says, move the triangle a little more to your left before starting.   

[jfv]

I have noticed that, for me, if the plane is a bit tail heavy it heavy, it has a tendency to round the bottom corner of the squares and triangles.  Adjusting the CG has corrected the issue.

[Ted Fancher]

Dane      I have coached a lot of people over the years and one of the most common problems is the flyer does not stand square to the maneuver. I think you are flying to your right. Fly the the maneuver shoulder to shoulder. Fly it in front of you not off to one side. Do not stand sideways to the maneuver. Let us know if I am correct.
Ed

What Eddy said!  As you approach downwind to start the maneuver rotate your body ahead of the plane to place the wind at your back and allow the airplane to fly into the maneuver "zone".  This "just prior to entering each maneuver" is the only time when flying stunt that you shouldn't be facing your airplane.

In addition, insure your handle is vertical at neutral.  Your comments about the airplane's reaction after the second corner of a triangle makes me suspect you might be flying with a "pistol grip" neutral; hand and handle tilted forward to the "natural" neutral position way too many (foolishly) try to overcome in order to fly stunt well.  (I just sorta thought the "pistol" grip terminology was particularly apropos for a gun slingin' combat flier!)

Ted

[Steve Helmick]

Eddie got it right; fly the maneuvers square in front of you. You should be facing dead downwind.

From your original post, I would also wonder if this new-to-you plane responds equally to inside and outside corners. That is absolutely critical. If you find yourself putting your thumb up on the top of the handle (in a "thumbs up" position) that's a sure sign. If you're adding "elbow" (up), same deal. Don't do that! Either indicates you need to do some TRIMMING.  Steve

[Dane Martin]

I will check the neutral. I feel like I'm putting my thumb on top to help. But, that might be my own bad habits? I know there's no comparison between this and my F2D planes, but I don't use my thumb in combat. My combat planes definitely turn equally. Let me put up some more flights and make sure I don't use my thumb. It's a nicely built plane. I'm thinking its me, not the plane. However, I don't have anything else to reference that to.

[Steve Helmick]

What sort of handle are you using?  Steve

[Dane Martin]

One of those little plastic hot rocks

[john e. holliday]

Retire that thing and get a good hard point handle.  I think some on has taken on the job of making the Fancher handle.  I've been out with the Tom Morris hard point and it works well for me also.

[Steve Helmick]

One of those little plastic hot rocks

Those will eventually cost you a plane, when the cable fatigues and breaks. Like Doc wrote, a hardpoint handle is the way to go. The new producer of "Ted" handles is Brent Williams in Utah. Randy Smith is selling the CF handles produced by the B.C. conglomerate of Arkady, Chris and Alan, and the Smith Brothers are selling a similar CF handle. Choose one, use one!  Steve

[Randy Cuberly]

Obviously all good advice here, especially since some of it is from some very good experienced fliers!

I would add only one thing that I think is very important, especially since you are a combat flier...I was also for many, many years before I got serious about Stunt.

As stated before, stand square to the maneuver.  Keep your hand in front of you at about chest to shoulder lever so that it's always in the sight picture of the airplane, and follow the airplane through the maneuver with the handle...always keep it moving with the airplane but basically always in your line of sight.  This is very important and helps to keep handle movements precise.  Keep your elbow slightly bent and in front of you in line with the handle.  Do this and you'll find with a little practice that your handle movements and the airplane movements are much more precise and predictable!  Remember that it's mostly wrist movements on corners!

Randy Cuberly

[Dane Martin]

I guess the proof is in the pudding. Here's a pic someone took of me flying. It's another plane, but I guess I'll really need to focus on positioning then.

[Randy Cuberly]

Yep...good combat stance, sucks for stunt.  Body position is unsteady and will be pulled around by the airplane as it changes position.  No references from your body to the handle or airplane.  Think about framing the maneuver position with your body position.  Shoulders and feet are references, learn to use them to frame the maneuver.  Your current position has no real references for maneuver size or shape, therefore no consistency.  Your mind and body must work together to draw the maneuver in the air.  If your body position doesn't give you references then your mind cannot know where those references are.

One more thing...Practice, Practice, Practice...and do it before you get old like some of us...it gets harder then!   

Randy Cuberly

[Dane Martin]

Those will eventually cost you a plane, when the cable fatigues and breaks. Like Doc wrote, a hardpoint handle is the way to go. The new producer of "Ted" handles is Brent Williams in Utah.

Thanks Steve. I emailed Brent. He got right back to me.

Thanks for the input guys. I'll just force myself to do the stuff shoulder to shoulder. I guess I didn't think to look until Eddy said something. I'll relax on the gun slinging!

[Tim Wescott]

What Eddy said!  As you approach downwind to start the maneuver rotate your body ahead of the plane to place the wind at your back and allow the airplane to fly into the maneuver "zone".  This "just prior to entering each maneuver" is the only time when flying stunt that you shouldn't be facing your airplane.

When I was teaching myself this I would actually stomp with my left foot as a planted for a maneuver, to remind myself what I was doing.  I think I still do it in my head; I'm not sure if it shows from the outside.

[john e. holliday]

I had people tell me that they knew when I was going to start a maneuver as I would plant my left foot before the plane got in front of me.   I too played with combat for a few years until rule changes.  It is hard to quit waving the arm all over the place while trying to get behind some one plane with yours.

[Steve Helmick]

Waving the arm around is definitely an old combat thing. Walking in circles following the plane is an old racing thing. I never flew any racing, except a few NW Sport Race heats in the late '80's, until sometime in the early 2000's, when I was volunteered to fly for Jerry Eichten at a Fall Fallies. In two flights, I acquired the habit of following the airplane around the pilot's circle, and it took me over a year to stop doing that. Won't fly a racer ever again! NO! Can't make me, not ever!  Steve

[Dane Martin]

I flew a 1000sq ringmaster today. It actually flys the pattern very well in the hands of capable pilots. So I purposely turned my body before the plane arrived at the start of the maneuver and let it fly past me. I actually ended up flying a little too far left a couple times, but after about 10 flights, my triangles and squares actually looked like triangles and squares! I did everything except the clover today. And mostly not in the correct order, but working on the ones I had issues with. Thanks guys! So need need mucho practice, and at least I feel like we've isolated the fact that I wasn't centered.
Thanks guys!

[Phil Spillman]

HI Dane, I have been helped very much by my own video which features Big Art explaining how to do our thing! Let me know if your are interested I just got a new supply in!

Several things have helped me to try to do what you are trying to get done! First think of the square maneuvers as well as the triangles in terms of a musical score which is to say each of several shapes have a specific "Beat" to execute viz a square is a four beat item i234  1234 which each side having one beat to itself; the triangles are three beats as in 123 123 your engine will set the tempo for you. If you think of the rhythm of the pattern its not a big leap to view the hour glass as a "5" beat shape as to the "long" sides and the two end pieces as single beats! Another trick is to place your feet as far apart as you  want the two base members of the hour glass to be! Hence you fly from your lower left foot to your upper shoulder width then over to your left shoulder width then down to your right foot just prior to your bottom pull out!

To make your usage of this technique less expensive take your handle alone into a room where you can phantom fly with only your handle and visualize your moves in your mind as you "fly" without a plane but see it in your mind! Amazing how this "practice" will fine tune you actual pattern's once you go back out tot he field with areal model! No mess to clean up either! I've also heard of others using the phantom flying method with a laser pointer against a blank wall. To make this idea really effective "do" the entire pattern as a whole so that you learn the correct transitions from one maneuver to the next!

Let us know how this idea may have worked out for you!

Phil Spilllman 

[Dane Martin]

Here's a little FPV shot of flying my os 20 Four stroke powered ringmaster. There's a few shots where you can clearly see I'm not afraid of the ground! Lol. I'll maybe start doing videos of me flying the pattern for online critique? I believe it would help in the in between times where I can't fly with someone. This video is edited and just sport flying, but it's a start.

[Phil Spillman]

HI Dane, I liked the music- Rather smallish handle though! I think I'm going to mount my OS .20 4C on my very old Ringmaster just for kicks and giggles! This set up looks really cool for sport and any other sort of enjoyment flying!

Phil Spillman

[Dane Martin]

HI Dane, I liked the music- Rather smallish handle though! I think I'm going to mount my OS .20 4C on my very old Ringmaster just for kicks and giggles! This set up looks really cool for sport and any other sort of enjoyment flying!

Phil Spillman

Lol, those are my combat handles. I ordered some proper stunt handles though!

[Dietmar Morbitzer]

I know it's nearly impossible at times to telephone troubleshoot, but I seem to have a funny issue when the plane is to my right (I think. That may have nothing to do with it) I first noticed it in my triangles. First corner looked cool, top looked cool, but as it traveled down that last leg, I some how just pulled up too early everytime. Did 5 of those then went to inside squares. Kinda similar situation when the planes on the right. I know I need to run some gallons through this plane. Just wondering if anyone had heard of that, and possible solutions.

Hi Dane,
I think I've same problem last weekend espacily at the triangles, also. What happend:
Normaly I fly 60 ships with 68 engines and they pull enough also after reducing speed because
2 hard turns. These ships have flaps and behave very easy.
The plane I flew sunday was my old Primary Force with OS FP 35 running an inconsistancy 4-2-4.
I'm a lefthander and sometimes a little lazy by following the plane with the handle and it
happens all the time the plane don't fly straight the last way of the triangle, it turns up to early.
I start flying more concentrating to fly the maneuvers realy in front of me and my center also following
very seriously the plane with the handle, this helps a lot but not as good as I want it.
Because of the engine run I changed to a lower pitched prop with more RPM. The engine run was
now much better laptime about 5,1 sec. Best of all the plane fly straight, bottoms were fine.
Hope this helps.
Dietmar Morbitzer

[Dane Martin]

Hi Dane,
I think I've same problem last weekend espacily at the triangles, also. What happend:
Normaly I fly 60 ships with 68 engines and they pull enough also after reducing speed because
2 hard turns. These ships have flaps and behave very easy.
The plane I flew sunday was my old Primary Force with OS FP 35 running an inconsistancy 4-2-4.
I'm a lefthander and sometimes a little lazy by following the plane with the handle and it
happens all the time the plane don't fly straight the last way of the triangle, it turns up to early.
I start flying more concentrating to fly the maneuvers realy in front of me and my center also following
very seriously the plane with the handle, this helps a lot but not as good as I want it.
Because of the engine run I changed to a lower pitched prop with more RPM. The engine run was
now much better laptime about 5,1 sec. Best of all the plane fly straight, bottoms were fine.
Hope this helps.
Dietmar Morbitzer

Thanks Dietmar. I've learned the following about myself. ..
1- I need to focus on watching my plane. Sounds funny, but before I rarely looked at my own plane while flying.

2- I need to focus on flying shoulder to shoulder. I've been practicing everyday now, only flying the pattern,  so I'm getting that down a little more everyday.

3-I need to practice alone to be able to practice. I never realized that it was so strange to go out knowing I'll be alone the whole time. Usually someone would show up. That took some getting used to.

[Steve Helmick]

Thanks Dietmar. I've learned the following about myself. ..
1- I need to focus on watching my plane. Sounds funny, but before I rarely looked at my own plane while flying.

That's a combat thing. I've noticed that many combat fliers who try STUNT can't even fly level laps well, either upright or inverted. Learning to concentrate on your own plane is essential, as is being aware of the exact wind direction. When both ears whistle the same tune, you're facing directly downwind or upwind. 

2- I need to focus on flying shoulder to shoulder. I've been practicing everyday now, only flying the pattern,  so I'm getting that down a little more everyday.
Good job!

3-I need to practice alone to be able to practice. I never realized that it was so strange to go out knowing I'll be alone the whole time. Usually someone would show up. That took some getting used to.
Better yet, enlist ONE guy to show up and be your coach. PLUS, flying off a stooge will eventually cost you a plane. You do have a set of lines and handle dedicated to each (stunt) plane, right?    Steve

[Dane Martin]

Well, as of now, I leave work, haul @$$ over to the dirt lot for one hour. With no distraction, I've been able to really crank out the flights. It's tough to get a volunteer for that brief period.
Lines yes, and I'm slowly setting myself up with more handles. It's turning out really fun to focus on this as a goal.